What do they play against combo decks? Just Chalices?
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What do they play against combo decks? Just Chalices?
ya, they play chalice main and hope to slow them down enough to race, just like any other 3+ color build.Quote:
Originally Posted by Careve
anyone still actually play this deck?
Anyone experimented running Straight Rg with Koth and Moons?
If you were to do that why not just build dragon stompy? Because that's what it is likely to turn out to look like in the end. I play this deck personally over 43 lands 1 because I don't have tabernacles and 2 you can usually finish the round on time and losing game 1 doesn't make the entire match a draw or loss because of 43lands lack of a clock.
If you really want to beat combo with aggro loam, I suggest running 4 mind break trap and 4 pyroblast/REB's in the board alongside the usual chalices of course. Even that configuration may not be enough to consistently beat combo. Loam decks are traditionally very bad against combo decks due to lack of hard counters. Also zuran orb helps against combo somewhat; if you make a land drop each turn it requires them to up the storm count +1 each turn.
here's a new build, with some (possibly) new tech, for this dormant thread to munch on:
4 Mox Diamond
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Taiga
1 Badlands
2 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Wasteland
4 Tranquil Thicket
4 Forgotten Cave
4 Goofy
4 Bobby
4 Lotus Cobra
3 Countryside Crusher
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Chalice
3 Seismic
4 Loam
Yeah, on paper Cobra doesn't look that impressive...but the mana it produces causes unreal tempo gain.
It's like the ultimate partner to Dark Confidant--while bobby draws extra cards, Cobra lets you play 2-3 extra cards a turn, depending on your fetchland situation. A turn 1 Cobra can easily lead to a turn 2 seismic + Loam, or any combination of double-bob/double-goyf, or Crusher + double cycle... all number of utterly ridiculous shenanigans. In multiples...well, shit, you just combo out, using a single fetch to power out 2+ loams with the cycling costs to recur them and draw piss loads of cards.
I hate lotus cobra in aggro loam. Why? You just cut a crusher (one of the best cards in the deck), terravores are completely absent, and 2 you run 7 fetches to utilize the cobra. I would cut a taiga for another fetch probably a bloodstained mire. And it isn't really the ultimate partner to dark confidant crusher holds that right in this deck because you can almost guarantee a business card being revealed to bob sans mox diamond if you resolve crusher's trigger first then bob's second. And lategame would you want to topdeck a lotus cobra I dno't think so. Also missing from your list is maelstrom pulse, a card that greatly benefits this deck in so many ways because it answers almost everything from manabond to counterbalance.
I'm curious as to why this deck sees less play. Whenever I play it, it just seems to roll over anything that runs creatures, which is a good amount of the field. The deck also isn't hard to play by any means. Do people feel it is just too clunky or not explosive enough?
Hi all!Quote:
Originally Posted by cuthbertthecat
I'm picking up this deck and will play it in a weekly tournament where I live tomorrow.
I played it with some success early 2009, winning a 40+ person tournament, with the classic Burning Wish-build.
Earlier this year and at GP Madrid, pre-MT-ban, i played Reanimator and recently Merfolks. I'm switching back now for two reasons. 1) It's my favourite deck and 2), I think it has a good matchup against a meta with Survival and controldecks, both which are abundant where I live.
I'll play Pat McGregors list with two minor modifications, 6-7 cycling lands instead of 8 and -2 Maelstrom Pulse, +2 Krosan Grip.
Sideboard: 4 Leyline of the Void, 4 Firespout, 3 Zuran Orb, 2 Krosan Grip, 2 yet undecided, possibly 1 Engineered Explosives and 1 Worm Harvest.
The problem with this deck, at least in my experience, has been inconsistency. Any hand that doesn't open with Mox diamond will be behind the opponent by 1 turn in development for pretty much the entire game.Quote:
Originally Posted by cuthbertthecat
I played the following in DE 1711692. I went 1-2. Any advice on deck, sb, or play is appreciated.
Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
1 Eternal Witness
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Terravore
4 Countryside Crusher
1 Shriekmaw
Other spells
4 Life from the Loam
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Seismic Assault
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
Lands (27)
3 Taiga
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Tranquil Thicket
4 Forgotten Cave
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
2 Mountain
1 Forest
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Choke
1 Firespout
1 Shriekmaw
3 Zuran Orb
1 Krosan Grip
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Worm Harvest
1 Maelstrom Pulse
Round 1 on the draw against Helmline and Dark Depths
Game 1 opening hand: Crusher, Diamond, EE, 2x 'goyf, 2x Foothills,
Opponent plays turn 1 Trinisphere off of Anceint Tomb and Mox Diamond. Turn 2 he gets Leyline Down off of a second land.
Turn 5 he plays Nether Void. I haven't seen another land and it is pretty much over here.
Sideboarding, OUT: Terravore, Shriekmaw, CotV. IN: Grip, Pulse, Deed
I'm hoping to hit his enchantments and artifacts. Terravore seems bad when he has maindeck Leyline. Shriekmaw is bad against black, and I only saw Thoughtseize to make me want to keep any CotV in. I would have taken more out if I thought I had more relevant cards.
Game 2 hand: Confidant, 'goyf, 2x Assault, Diamond, foothills and forgotten cave. He has an opening Leyline of the Void.
Turn 1 I play Confidant. He plays Mox Diamond. No land drop.
Turn 2 I cast Pernicious Deed. I break Deed Turn three to kill both our diamonds. The game basically ends on his turn five, at this point he had no permaments in play. He casts double Mox Diamond, plays Dark Depths, plays Hexmage. Maybe I should put some Diabolic Edicts in my SB?
0-1.
Round 2. From the replays it wasn't totally clear what my opponent was playing because he got stomped, but I did see Preordain, maybe I should have thought ANT?
On the play with Crusher, Confidant, EE, Diamond, Forest Badlands, Cave.
Well, I lose to Tendrils on his first turn.
Sideboarding, IN: Choke, Grip, 1 Zuran Orb. I iddn't take adequate notes here.
Game 2 Hand: Chalice of the Void, Eternal Witness, Loam, and 4 lands.
Turn 1 CotV for zero. He duresses me, taking Loam, which I just don't think was a great idea. I dredged it into Wasteland and Loam + Wasteland locked him out of game 2. Choke was nice because one turn I effecitvely wasted and underground sea that he tapped and was able to get more lands out.
Game 3 hand: CotV, Choke, Confidant, Pulse, 2 Diamond, Volrath's Stronghold.
I'm not sure if this was right, but I kept because CotV is too good to pass up as it feels like the only good card in this mu.
Turn 1 he plays Gemstone Mine and passes. A duress here would have been rough. I luck into a Wasteland, play CotV for zero and Confidant. He scoops.
1-1
Round 3. He is playing Armaggedon Stax. In retrospect I think my strategy should have been to mull to a creature or nice loam start.
Game 1 hand: CotV, EE, Assault, Diamond, 2 Mountains, and a cave.
I shoud have mulled this. I don't think Assault is the card you want against Stax.
Turn 1 I play Diamond and CotV for zero. This was just a bad play. It shuts off any attempt I want to make to play EE for zero, unless I draw into Waste or Stronghold. It was a silly keep and play…
Turn 3 he plays CotV for 2. I had 2 EE in hand. I might have had a chance if I hadn't played CotV for 0.
He casts Exalted Angel. I should have ignored the angel, Pulsed his CotV and started casting Life from the Loam and drew into other answers. I had two cycling lands at this point. But I pulsed the angel. He eventually wins after a Ravages of War and Magus beats.
Sideboarding, OUT: 4x CotV, 3x Assault - I can't pitch lands when he can hammer my lands in play. IN: Pulse, Grip, Deed, Shriekmaw, 3x Leyline
Game 2 hand: Tarmogoyf, Confidant, Diamond, Wasteland, Stronghold, 2x Foothills.
Turn 1 Confidant, ready for turn 2 waste + loam. He plays Flagstones so I play Bloodstained Mire and Tarmogoyf.
Turn 2 he casts Crucbile off of Ancient Tomb.
Turn 3 I draw into Loam (I've been getting a lot of gas off Bob) and Waste his tomb. I basically have the game now with a Tarmogoyf and Bob attacking, plus Wasteland recurision.
Game 3 hand: Tarmogoyf, Crusher, Wasteland, Thicket and three fetches. I keep because it has beats and lots of land.
Turn 1 He plays Horizon Canopy and I waste it. Was this the wrong play?
Turn 2 He plays Ancient Tomb. I play land.
Turn 4 He plays Smokestack off of Tomb and City of Traitors.
I draw a Wasteland and hit his Ancient Tomb.
Turn 5 he ramps stacks, plays an Ancient Tomb and a Crucible of Worlds.
Turn 6 I lose Taiga and concede. I probably should have tried to play this out to see I suppose who could get Mox Diamonds first? He would have probably beaten me with Flagstones of Trokair and CotV to sacrifice to Smokestack. Yeah, I should have played it out. Argh, maybe next time.
1-2 done.
Those are some pretty bad matchups you got. Aggro Loam doesn't really shine against Stax type decks.
This. Aggro Loam also has bad matchups against tempo decks, board control or prison decks, and Counterbalance decks. Since these matchups combined are quite common, and they all require different solutions, the deck doesn't do very well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antonius
It doesn't help that the deck is basically now competing with Stax for worst curve in the format. Not running crappy cards like Chalice helps, but not enough.
i've experimented with this build:
4 Mox Diamond
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Arid Mesa
1 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
4 Wasteland
3 Tranquil Thicket
2 Forgotten Cave
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Goyf
4 Countryside Crusher
2 Wickerbough Elder
2 Seismic Assault
2 Sylvan Library
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Firespout
I put in 1 drops for exactly the purpose that you outlined, Aggro_Zombies-- without some 1 drops, the deck's gameplan is severely compromised without Mox Diamond. Steppe Lynx is amazing with loam and its cool because it allows for an extremely aggressive turn 1 without mox diamond. Wild Nacatl or Noble Hierarch could work in that spot, too, but neither are as aggressive and neither live through firespout. Also, with Loam as an engine for hitting land drops, Hierarch's mana fixing seems a lot less relevant.
This is an interesting take on it. Converging on Big Zoo is not something I would have thought of. Speaking of which:Quote:
Originally Posted by Antonius
Elder seems poor here. Knight of the Reliquary is on-color for this build, is cheaper, and hits very hard with Loam. If you want a Disenchant effect, Qasali Pridemage is simply better since the cost is lower (three versus five to play and activate is a huge difference). Yeah, you have to lose Pridemage but get to keep Elder, but does it really make much difference when the other guy's Survival has had that much more time to do its thing?
Not sure on Swords. It's okay, but you're mostly winning combat anyway, so I'm not sure what it does for you that, say, Lightning Bolt wouldn't.
One issue about relying too much on Loam in the current format is that the concentration of graveyard hate has risen because of Vengevines. Library and Confidant are always good backup plans.
maybe the deck would not be that explosive as it is with steppe lynxes, but did you think about running wild nacatl instead? I did try a build with it and kird and went quite good. the other cards I did play were vindicate and burning wish and did not run swords to plowshares
Well, I sleeved up McGregors list and got my ass kicked.
1. Johan with Death and Taxes
Hard matchup, jitte and SOFI on flyers seal my fate both games. Chalice is pretty much worthless if he gets Vial early. Still kept all four post-board though to prevent him from using STP and PTE. His Flickerwisps owns moxen, crushers, explosives and chalices and when paired with SOFI, it goes downhill really fast. 0-2.
2. Martin with UBw Dreadstill
Excellent matchup, chalice stops him cold game one and he has to go Trinket Mage > EE @ 0 which gives me time to attack with Crusher + Goyf.
Next game is even better since I get a start wit mox and land a Goyf on the first turn and follow it up with a Crusher. Him not getting enough time to answer all my threats and at the same time develop his own game gets me there. 2-0.
3. Henrik with GW Vengevine
This match is all about the creatures, unfortunately Henrik has Mother of Runes wich can send his 8/8 knights past my defense and post-board, Gaddock Teeg prevents me from playing Engineered Explosives to help matters. 0-2.
4. Robin with Goblins.
Game 1 is highly unfavorable for me because my list lacks Firespouts or Devastating Dreams main. I get early beats but his lategame bests mine. Seismic Assault would have helped. Postboard (+4 Firespout) this match is much more pleasant, I keep 4 lands, 1 Mox , Loam + Seismic, unfortunately he has Extirpate for my Loam. I use cyclinglands to draw dudes and keep him off his mana with Wasteland. I keep my lands in my hand and play Crusher at 3 lands, seismic in play, from there I beat him to 4 life, using lands to kill his blockers. Then he draws Tin-street Hooligan and wrecks a mox and wastes one on my lands thus making my Crusher locking me out of the game long enough it takes him to get insane with Siege-gang + Kiki-Jiki. Oh, he also extirpated my Firespouts after I played the first.
Thoughts: the deck is a blast to play and many of the losses come from me picking up this deck without any prior playtesting. The Dreadstill match was really easy to win and the Survival Match is really quite winnable, a reasonable answer to his Mother of Runes would have let me in the game again. Goblins are hard but Firespouts really help, I shouldn't have played the Crusher but saw my chance to make him go all the way.
I will play the same deck next week and report back then, please write your opinions on some of these match.
One questions I've been thinking about if I should have mulled the last hand against goblins (loam + seismic + mana, nothing else) out of fear of GY-hate.
This is not surprising, since the deck is not very good anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by allek
Leaving Chalice in was almost certainly a mistake. Chalice is very bad against Vial decks and only mediocre against more of the field in general. Artifact removal would have been a better use of those slots post-board.Quote:
Originally Posted by allek
Firespout is generally quite good against these sorts of decks. Bolt is also quite good here, but McGregor's list doesn't play any, unfortunately.Quote:
Originally Posted by allek
Dreams is actually kind of bad against Goblins, or any other deck, for that matter. Crusher is also not very good anymore, for the reasons you discovered. Dark Confidant is a good backup to Loam, but like every other Loam deck, you don't really have a substitute to losing your namesake card. Sounds like your second game was a combination of bad beats and not having enough creatures.Quote:
Originally Posted by allek
No to the mulligan. If he has it, he has it. If he doesn't, the hand was reasonable.Quote:
Originally Posted by allek
You can take McGregors list and subtract maelstrom pulse's for firespouts MD because both cost 3 and are removal. You could also take out 1 terravore and some other random card for 2 more firespouts to have a good aggro MU games 1-3 because DnT gets owned by firespout and so does goblins along with some of zoo's creatures dying to it.
Keeping in chalices against DnT is terrible along with against any other vial deck. Especially on the draw if they land turn 1 vial or if you don't have the turn 1 chalice for 1 it's just awful. I'd side out chalices for firespouts if you have zero spouts MD very fast if they swords your dudes you play a seismic assault and they still lose.
The reason aggro loam isn't good right now is once people adapt to survivine extirpate hits a lot of our cards as well especially loam and having all our crushers removed isn't exactly good either. And when you get your firespout's removed it's pretty much game unless you draw like a champion. Devastating dreams isn't that good anymore in general I'm never going to have it anywhere in my 75. The card is so conditional and while its cute to play against some opponent with crusher on the board and/or terravore to swing in for the win the deck doesn't need that.
I'm still playing this deck and I'm currently having success with it. Contrary to many I'm running 4c loam with devastating, seismic and burning wish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antonius
In my own opinion if you are planning to build a loam deck you have to consider your own play style and meta. My build is a bit controlish but it can also win games easily given a strong start.
I've had experiences were I played 2nd turn terravore 3rd turn devastating and it felt good : )
Is your fourth color white for additional control like Vindicate and StP or blue for library manipulation? I've had fun working with Gifts Ungiven packages (and Academy Ruins can be hilarious in the deck), but never had the balls to take it to any semblance of a tournament. Also, Knight of the Reliquary is insane in this deck, to my mind better than Crusher.Quote:
Originally Posted by blue_mage