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I think I'm going to go with that, the changes I would make based off cards I could barrow from friends till I can get my own areQuote:
Originally Posted by Neuad
-X Forest
+X Taiga
-X Elvish Visionary
+X ESG
What would you remove to add in Elvish Archdruids? Would you? Or should I SB any I get?
And speaking of SB this is what I was thinking for my setup.
Something like
1 Emrakul
2 Regal
4 Elvish Champion
4 Joraga Warcaller
4 Elvish Archdruid
??
I just saw an amazing card
!Cloudstone Curio
Perhaps we could play 2 instead of 2 Wirewoods?
So let me try and understand Wirewood.
You tap Priest of Titania, get X mana. Use wirewood, untap Priest, return Llanowar. Re-cast Llanowar, and then you can retap Priest for a 2nd wave of a ton of mana?
Cloudstone Curio would be the same principle except Cast Priest of Titania, lay down a G elf, return Priest or similar card to hand. Recast priest/whatever, and tap for mana a 2nd time?
In both scenarios obviously you need Crossroads in play aswell.
Am I understand correctly?
Please pardon my magic newbness.
As you can see from the decklists through the internet, Cloudstone Curio is used in Extended Combo elves version. The format is obviously slower, so the deck has a lot more breathing space than it does in Legacy. And we have a lot faster stuff than Curio :) So i would say it doesn't have space and time down here.Quote:
Originally Posted by unicoerner
Anyway, it's cool that Combo elves was able to win a GP Oakland.
Matt Nass
2 Arbor Elf
4 Boreal Druid
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Essence Warden
1 Eternal Witness
4 Heritage Druid
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
1 Ranger of Eos
1 Regal Force
Creatures [30]
4 Cloudstone Curio
4 Glimpse of Nature
1 Primal Command
4 Summoner's Pact
Spells [13]
4 Forest
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Pendelhaven
1 Temple Garden
4 Verdant Catacombs
interesting build
I do not understand the people that opt to play
Birchlore Ranger
Nettle Sentinel
Grapeshot
Regal Force
over
Joraga Warcaller
Elvish Archdruid
Concordant Crossroads
What happens if the deck doesn't draw/resolve a Glimpse? The deck rolls over and dies, that's what.
With Joraga Warcaller and Archdruid, you can got the aggro route and still win by beating down your opponent with massive Warcallers atleast.
The odds of always having a Glimpse every game aren't that high.
The odds of always having either a Glimpse to combo off with, or a Joraga Warcaller or a Sylvan Messenger to draw into multiple Archdruids or a Warcaller to let you go the aggro route if you can't combo out on the other hand are much higher.
You do not understand that your build isn't the perfect and ultimate one, what happens when your Warcaller also gets countered, what happens when Crossroads also gets countered and so on? What happens when you don't have Warcaller? I respect your imput to the deck, but seriously, stop acting like your build is the best and every other build sucks "because it's inconsistent". And seriously, stop bashing cards that actually wins games. It's cool that you don't like them, but you're pushing your opinion to others way too much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Stewart
And yeah, I would like to play some games with you on MWS, I want to see how good is your build against normal combo elves.
No my point is.
If Glimpse gets countered, the Warcaller combo lists can still win via the Warcaller route, or the Sylvan Messenger route, or the multiple Archdruid route. There are several different paths to victory.
Whereas with traditional combo lists, if Glimpse gets countered, then what's the backup plan? Beat down with 1/1s? Play a Visionary and hope you topdeck into a Glimpse? Hope and pray that you can somehow generate 7 mana in one turn and tutor up Regal Force, which is actually pretty rare if you didn't combo off. It's a very all in one plan that is far too dependent on Glimpse. And without the card, the deck for the most part falls apart. I'm basing this on considerable time spent trying to play traditional Elf combo lists.
Glimpse is a fantastic win condition which is why I think every Elf deck should play 4. But I think it's a mistake to orient your build completely around Glimpse such that you are almost dependent on the card to have any hope of winning. But that's what so many people are opting to do. Why not play cards like Warcaller and Sylvan Messenger that offer viable backup plans, and still let you win with Glimpse regardless.
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=605401 - Deck I want to buy
As I said above
-X Elvish Visionary
-X Forest
+X Elvish Archdruid
+X Elvish Spirit Guide
Leading to my eventual deck goal of
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=604984
Is 10 Forests too little? What else would you guys recommend taking out to fit Archdruids and ESGs in other then Visionarys? Llanowars and Fyndhorns?
I would be playing this out on MWS but I can't find a download for it, the website is broke :(
I would recommend taking out 4 Birchlore Ranger, 4 Nettle Sentinal, the Grapeshot, a forest, a Sylvan Messenger and 2 Elvish Visionary to squeeze in 4 Elvish Archdruid, 4 ESG, the 3rd Wirewood Symbiote AND 4 Joraga Warcaller.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuad
Try it out (on MWS if you must) and I pretty much guarentee you'll be very pleased with how the list runs.
If the site is broken, you can download MWS off of torrents from thepiratebay.org. As a bonus, by using the torrent, you will get all the card pictures too.
Why can't you just play both the Nettle/Heritage combo AND the Joraga/Archdruids?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Stewart
Grapeshot isn't necessary. Neither is Mirror Entity. Nettle Sentinel, however, is probably the most important creature in the deck, if not then he's definitely number two. Why do you think it should be Nettle Sentinel vs. Elvish Archdruid?
My friend just built Elves Combo, basing his list off of Forbiddian's list earlier in this thread, and it still works insanely good without needing to glimpse.
Personally I think the more hybridized approach is the way to go. Most lists in this thread seem to rely too much on the combo. Some decks will try to stop your beatdown plan while you combo off in their face, others will try to stop the creature flow while you set up the combo.
This is the list my friend plays:
14 Forest
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Joraga Warcaller
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Sylvan Messenger
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Quirion Ranger
3 Wirewood Symbiote
2 Viridian Zealot
4 Glimpse of Nature
2 Concordant Crossroads
What about a slightly edited version of that list
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
4 Joraga Warcaller
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
3 Quirion Ranger
4 Sylvan Messenger
3 Wirewood Symbiote
2 Concordant Crossroads
4 Glimpse of Nature
12 Forest
PS - Adding Elvish Spirit Guides to my deck became alot easier, I just found 4. Less money I have to spend!
That actually looks like a fairly interesting and resilient build. Thanks for posting it. I do think both Priest of Titania and Elvish Spirit Guide are quite important to the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exospaciac
ESG regularly speeds the deck up by a full turn, and also works great with Archdruid and Priest (lets you play them a turn earlier), and lastly is a great card to draw off of Sylvan Messenger.
Priest really lets you abuse Warcaller. I wouldn't play 4 Warcaller without a full set of Priest and Archdruid, and Priest goes fantastically with Glimpse, Sylvan Messenger, Quirion Ranger, Symbiote, Crossroads and your ability to combo.
But I think I can play a similar list while making room for both cards.
What do you think of something like this...
13/12 Forest
3/4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
4 Priest of Titania
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Joraga Warcaller
4 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Sylvan Messenger
4 Quirion Ranger
3 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Glimpse of Nature
2 Concordant Crossroads
Don't thank me, thank Forbiddian. He DID help build the best deck in the format after all. :)
Priest seems like a pretty obvious inclusion at first, but my only problem with it is that the deck already makes a ton of mana. Kicking Warcaller for 4 as opposed to Warcaller for 12 to end the game probably won't make the biggest difference in most cases. Plus, it doesn't help you dig. Visionary digs for dudes and can even help you generate mana.
But then again I could be completely wrong. I've never really piloted this deck in tournament so my experience with it is fairly limited.
The best part about this deck and the Glimpse-Nettle/Warcaller, Visionary vs ESG, etc etc arguments we are having is most of these cards are relatively cheap, and we could have all 3 decks (Glimpse, Warcaller, and the mix) without buying many diff cards, and play around with what suits you as a player.
Edit - Sideboards. This is the one thing you guys are kind of glossing over recently. Would building a Glimpse/Nettle/Grapeshot deck, with a Warcaller sideboard be a bad idea?
Or are there better cards to set in your sideboard.
Currently am thinking
1 ?
4 Elvish Archdruid
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Regal Force
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Thoughtseize
to support a grapeshot deck. But would
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Joraga Warcaller
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Regal Force
4 Elvish Champions
work? I could switch from a grapeshot win condition to a warcaller + champs, or Emrakul/Regal. . .
I don't think the transformational board is worth it. You are better off playing...
Leyline of Lifeforce vs. Control
Thorn of Amethyst vs. Combo
Ground Seal/that G/W G/W Enchantment/Fairie Macabre/Leyline of the Void/Tormod's Crypt or some other grayeyard hate
and the remaining slots dictated by your meta, I actually like utility elves like Elvish Champion/Essence Warden/Wellwisher here against really fast aggro decks or green based decks. But if you face a lot of combo, you are better off with maybe Root Maze or something to supplement the Thorn of Amethyst.
Yes, the problem is, Priest and Archdruid are prime targets for all your opponent's removal and FoWs (which works out well in a way since your opponent many times won't have removal left for the Warcaller or counters for the Glimpses), but you can never have too many. Without fail, smart opponent do everything they can to stop Priest and Archdruid from losing summoning sickness, because the turn they lose Summoning Sickness is almost always the same turn you win the game. This is also why I love Crossroads and went up to 3 copies. With eight copies or Priest, you are assured that you can make enough mana to combo off, or to play Warcaller kicked for 4.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exospaciac
Playing 4 Archdruid and 4 Priest doesn't mean you get to kick Warcaller for 12, you need that many to consistently kick Warcaller for 4 to win the game. Afterall, with 8 copies of a card, you are likely to see around one 1.5 copies per game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Stewart
So something like
SB
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Vexing Shusher
4 Viridian Shaman
2 Joraga Warcaller
4 Elvish Archdruid
?
Thanks for all the input by the way!
Play what you are comfortable with. If you do want to play the deck competitivly though, I wouldn't use up sideboard slots for cards like Archdruid or Warcaller, and I think 4 Shaman is a bit too many. You would be better off with Zealot since that can hit Humility, Oblivion Ring, Deed and cards of that nature as well.
With this deck I plan on playing at a local FNM type thing for legacy at a local card shop, getting used to magic and having some fun.
If I decide I like combo/legacy I can start upgrading towards something better.
Jon Stewart: Why do you think everyone has a pure combo elf deck and only has one road to victory? My deck can win with mirror entity, staff of domination, grapeshot, glimpse, natural order for prog, sometimes natural order for regal force, and I run a single warcaller which can be tutored for with summoner's pact. Is that enough win conditions for you?
Yes, I'm referring specifically to the decks that are built almost entirely around Glimpse (most of the lists in the thread).
The average undisrupted win turn for my list is turn 2.5 with glimpse and turn 3.5 without Glimpse. But even with significant disruption, it scrapes together a win on turn 4/5 without much difficulty.
Most of the standard lists in the thread (including the one in the OP) aren't capable of doing that without Glimpse. I know from past experience playing those same lists.
If you have a list that wins that consistently without Glimpse via multiple routes, I would be interested in seeing it. I'm particularly curious as to how you managed to squeeze so many different non elf win conditions into the deck while still being able to abuse Glimpse when you do happen to draw and resolve it.
Do you mind posting it? Thanks.