New Competitive Eternal Format Coming

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Originally Posted by DalkonCledwin

"We will not reprint anything on the reserved list again." is technically an identical statement to "Nothing on the reserved list will ever be printed again."

This is due to the fact that the technical definition of a reprint is to print something as a second or later edition printing. So technically beta cards were reprints of the alpha cards just as 10th edition cards are reprints of all previous versions of those cards.

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I know that and you know that, but I wasn't the one posting dictionary definitions of "reprint" in order to find some loophole that they will print the cards again with the same printing plates. :tongue: I was only saying that the semantic argument over "reprint" in the discussion was pointless considering the policy used the verb "print", thereby making any kind of loophole-seeking analysis into the word "reprint" useless.

At this point I wish I had never said anything. I didn't know I would have to reply to this over and over.

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Originally Posted by Some Guy

It is my favorite when people just pull prices out of thin air. the following are based off of what I see on ebay often and not the highest ones I could possibly find somewhere.

4 FOW - $160
4 Goyf - $250
4 Hierarch - $65
4 Trop - $200

hrmm...... $820 vs $675. a $145 difference seems like it could get a lot of NO / PRO and fetches to me.

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That's fine, still 16/75 of a single deck is still more expensive than 3 Dredge decks.

I based my original post on the fact that people on this site were posting in threads saying that CounterTop decks costed $1400 to build. With ebay prices $1000 seems more reasonable. And my prices, while technically "out of thin air", were spot-on SCG prices, except the Trops, which are $80 apiece there (so I was a little generous). So don't ridicule me for pulling out bullshit prices where you can go to one of the most prominent MTG sites and see them backed up.

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Originally Posted by jrsthethird

That's fine, still 16/75 of a single deck is still more expensive than 3 Dredge decks.

I based my original post on the fact that people on this site were posting in threads saying that CounterTop decks costed $1400 to build. With ebay prices $1000 seems more reasonable. And my prices, while technically "out of thin air", were spot-on SCG prices, except the Trops, which are $80 apiece there (so I was a little generous). So don't ridicule me for pulling out bullshit prices where you can go to one of the most prominent MTG sites and see them backed up.

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Then why didn't you mention you got the pricing from SCGs?

This issue of pricing keeps coming up. Specifically, I think that players want Legacy to be cheaper than it is. If Legacy turns out to be affordable to the average Standard player, then Wizards really has no business making a new format because of economic reasons (economic reasons of the players, that is). If, however, Legacy is as expensive as people claim, then they might have every incentive to make a new format, just to make decks cheaper for your average Magic player.

I went to http://blacklotusproject.com/ to find the following card prices. This site uses eBay data to come up with card prices that are significantly cheaper than anything else on most websites. Therefore, the following should be considered pretty damn accurate. I will use conventional CounterTop cards as an example:

4 FoW (36.01) = 144.04
4 Tarmogoyf (60.55) = 242.2
4 Noble Hierarch (14.42) = 57.68
4 Tropical Island (49.44) = 197.76
4 Flooded Strand (14.41) = 57.64
4 Counterbalance (5.14) = 20.56
4 Sensei's Divining Top (5.40) = 21.6
CounterTop Deck Tota (Take 1)l = 741.48

Now at first glance, this might not appear so expensive. If we go back to previous pages, we might be tempted to compare this to Standard deck prices and say "man, those are almost the same!" Unfortunately, blacklotusproject's eBay averages are lower than most cards. If we also use blacklotusproject values for Jund cards (the number one Standard deck), we will find that Jund is substantially cheaper.

4 Bloodbraid Elf (3.48) = 13.92
2 Broodmate Dragon (4.10) = 8.20
4 Putrid Leech (.19) = .76
4 Siege-Gang Commander (1.88) = 7.52
4 Sprouting Thrinax (.61) = 2.44
4 Lightning Bolt (.81) = 3.24
4 Blightning (1.10) = 4.40
4 Maelstrom Pulse (16.18) = 64.72
4 Dragonskull Summit (7.62) = 30.48
4 Verdant Catacombs (9.20) = 36.80
4 Raging Ravine (3.72) = 14.88
Jund Deck Total = 187.36

Notice how I included virtually EVERY card from Jund in this sum, whereas I only included some expensive staples in the CounterTop list. Why? To show how outrageously much more Legacy costs compared to Standard. You might say "But Jund is not the most expensive deck! UW Control is WAY more expensive, so you should be comparing those lists." I agree that we should look at a UW control cost compared to a Jund/CounterTop one. So here we go:

4 Jace the Mind Sculptor (40.59) = 162.36
4 Day of Judgment (5.49) = 21.96
4 Path to Exile (4.59) = 18.36
4 Baneslayer Angel (40.73) = 162.92
2 Martial Coup (4.40) = 8.8
4 Glacial Fortress (5.78) = 23.12
4 Celestial Colonnade (3.49) = 13.96
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant (31.76) = 63.52
2 Arid Mesa (8.93) = 17.86
2 Scalding Tarn (8.30) = 16.6
UW Control Deck Total = 509.46

This is admittedly a lot closer to our CounterTop value. But, there is a problem here. The CounterTop list above did not include any other Fetchlands (Misty Rainforest, for instance) or Duals (Tundra and Savannah anyone?). If we did include these, the price would shoot up even further out of Standard range.

4 Misty Rainforest (8.57) = 34.28
2 Tundra (58.53) = 117.06
2 Savannah (41.01) = 82.02
CounterTop Deck Total (Take 2)= 974.84

It's those damn lands! Just by adding 8 more cards to our calculation, CounterTop almost reached double the price of UW Control.

In the end, I agree that Legacy is a great investment. The money you spend on Duals/FoW/Fetchlands will keep on giving no matter what deck you choose to play in the future. But the initial entry costs are incredibly steep. It's the same reason that people rent apartments over their lives for thousands more than they would spend if they just bought a house/condo in one lump sum. For the Standard player, individual card expenditure is low, but it must be repeated over a long period of time. For the Legacy player, individual card expenditure is high, but it only needs to happen once. It's a better investment, but only rational economic agents like investments, and Magic is hardly a game full of rational players.

-ktkenshinx-

However, Counter-top is not the only Tier-1 deck.

How about Merfolk? Goblins? Zoo?

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

However, Counter-top is not the only Tier-1 deck.

How about Merfolk? Goblins? Zoo?

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Why don't YOU tell us ?

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Originally Posted by Puzzle

Why don't YOU tell us ?

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What is it you want me to tell you?

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Originally Posted by jrsthethird

don't ridicule me for pulling out bullshit prices where you can go to one of the most EXPENSIVE MTG sites and see them backed up.

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When people complain about high prices , usually they do not want to pay the absolute most they possibly can.

As you might imagine, Goblins, Zoo, and Merfolk are cheaper than CounterTop. In the interest of time, I am not going to post a pricing of Goblins and Zoo at this time. Merfolk is another matter. With Merfolk appearing more consistently in the Top 8 of the SCG events than any other deck, this might be the best analog to Jund that Legacy can offer (at least in terms of Prevalence). I will consider the Merfolk list played by Michael Brady at SCG Orlando, as it is a good representation of a standard Merfolk list, and it does not include Tarmogoyf.

4 Aether Vial (8.52) = 34.08
4 FoW (36.01) = 144.04
4 Daze (1.47) = 5.88
4 Lord of Atlantis (2.32) = 9.28
4 Standstill (6.57) = 26.28
4 Merrow Reejerey (1.11) = 4.44
3 Umezawa's Jitte (17.59) = 52.77
4 Wasteland (20.04) = 80.16
4 Mutavault (10.25) = 41
Merfolk Deck Total = 249.45

Way, way cheaper than CounterTop, and also way cheaper than UW Control. This deck is probably about the same as Naya Lightsaber in Standard, and only slightly more than Jund and RDW.

But this brings us back to my initial appraisal of Legacy a few pages back. While players can definitely afford to play some decks (if not others), they choose not to for other reasons. Those reasons are uneffected by the actual value of decks, cards, and format staples. There are other problems with format perception and player perception that must be keeping players away from the format. Goblins is cheaper than even Merfolk, and Dredge is cheaper than both. These are both strong decks in Legacy, and both are well within the price range of your average player. Standard players either know this and don't care, or don't know this and don't care to find out the truth. In either situation, Legacy gets put in a bad position.

-ktkenshinx-

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

Then why didn't you mention you got the pricing from SCGs?

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Because I did, in fact, pull them out of thin air. I just have a good hold on what SCG's prices on staples are, and my guesses were 75% correct.

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Originally Posted by Some Guy

When people complain about high prices , usually they do not want to pay the absolute most they possibly can.

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Just a reference point. I would never buy from SCG, but I use their prices as a guideline for trades and stuff since it is a prominent site that other people can relate to.

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Originally Posted by ktkenshinx

CounterTop Deck Total (Take 2)= 974.84

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Even with bottom-of-the-barrel prices like that the deck still comes to about $1000. My point still holds.

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Originally Posted by Mictlantecuhtli

He tried to explain why this would be a good idea but he then started talking nonsense about reprinting FoW and snow duals for the new format ... I guess he can always try and articulate a more logical opinion next week.

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The new format, of course, doesn't need snow duals or any other duals closer to the original duals than those we already have; i.e., those in Ravnica. After all, the whole idea of the new format is to get away from having to do something that would go against the Reprint Policy.

However, Force of Will is not on the Reserved List; in fact, it wasn't even on the Reserved List back when a lot of uncommons were included in the original 1999 policy. Reprinting Force of Will, not in Duel Decks so people can get copies, but in the next Core Set, so that its format legality is changed, is something that at least could be relevant to the new format. This is because some people have voiced concerns that with the card pool a Masques-forward format would have, it might not be as playable as would be desired, but instead would be too combo-heavy. It's been suggested that Force of Will is very important in keeping this sort of thing in check in the Legacy format, and so the new format would suffer from its absence.

What would the new format honestly do besides make a cheaper Legacy clone?

Instead of old duals we would likely use shockland duals. Counter-top would still be quite powerful since most of the pieces for it are from the newer sets (minus original dual lands). Hell, Natural Order isn't on the reserved list.

I have a theory of something that "could" happen:

Since the new format would be "cheaper", there would be a rush to grab the shocklands, causing them to go up in value. If the new Legacy becomes popular enough, some people may sell off their old duals to quickly stock up on new duals. The artificial increase in supply of the old duals would cause their value to go down since there is less demand for them. Meanwhile, the new duals would go up in value.

This new format could cause opposite of what collectors want: their older cards to retain value.

I know what I will be doing: watching closely to see if there is any truth to this theory and start buying those shocklands to make a profit (and for my own decks).

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

You buy your duals once and you are done. You buy the staples you know will be needed once and you're done. Then you add a few cards here and there. Legacy is still cheaper than Standard unless you plan to play Standard for a very limited timeframe.

The buy-in to competitive Legacy right now is under $1000 unless you want to play black. That's about as much as you pay for a good TV.

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This is bull***. Unless you're stupid or lazy you have plenty of time to flip standard cards at their prime or before they hit their post-rotation bottom. You don't lose as much as you think.

There's also the fact that people who get good can just go infinite much easier because there are many more tournaments.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

I think it's still true. Some cards have -started out- in Standard recently booking $50-$70. The boom hasn't just affected Legacy. Underground Seas and Tarmogoyfs aren't all that much more expensive than Jace the Mind Sculptors started out. And Forces cost less, actually.

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Nothing ever hit $50-70. Jace was around 30-35 at the prerelease and pre-ordered for less for a bit before that. Baneslayer was around $15-25 at prerelease time. The highest something's gotten recently is in the low 50s unless people don't give a damn and buy BSs at $60. And those are only two playsets in a deck with $40+ pricetags and only for a specific deck. In Legacy, most of the decks have 3-4+ playsets of $40+ cards and even the commons/uncommons add up to a nice amount.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

What would the new format honestly do besides make a cheaper Legacy clone?

Instead of old duals we would likely use shockland duals. Counter-top would still be quite powerful since most of the pieces for it are from the newer sets (minus original dual lands). Hell, Natural Order isn't on the reserved list.

I have a theory of something that "could" happen:

Since the new format would be "cheaper", there would be a rush to grab the shocklands, causing them to go up in value. If the new Legacy becomes popular enough, some people may sell off their old duals to quickly stock up on new duals. The artificial increase in supply of the old duals would cause their value to go down since there is less demand for them. Meanwhile, the new duals would go up in value.

This new format could cause opposite of what collectors want: their older cards to retain value.

I know what I will be doing: watching closely to see if there is any truth to this theory and start buying those shocklands to make a profit (and for my own decks).

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There is one factor that you do not include in this analysis. Shocklands are not on the reserved list. This is critical for the price and potential price. Wizards could easily reprint the Shocklands in M11 or M12 (At latest) to support the new format. This would greatly increase supply, but it would be an increase that is relative to the demand. As such, their prices would remain roughly the same, give or take a slight increase or decrease in value. Indeed, Wizards would probably initiate a new format with the reprinting of these dual lands and, perhaps, even the fetchlands.

Comparing the Shocklands to the Conditional Lands (the M10 CIPT lands), the two present unique advantages and disadvantages. You can fetch shocklands, but they hurt a lot. You can play them without other lands in play, but they deal damage. The CIPT lands can't be fetched, but they also don't cause any damage at all. Reprinting the Shocklands in M11 would alter the Standard enviornment, especially if they were reprinted alongside the M10 lands.

Overall, the reprintability of Shocklands is critical in their potential price. If a new format came into being, Wizards would almost assuredly a) reprint the Shocklands or b) print new duals. Given the circumstances, it is far more likely that they will reprint Shocklands rather than printing new lands.

-ktkenshinx-

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Originally Posted by ktkenshinx

There is one factor that you do not include in this analysis. Shocklands are not on the reserved list. This is critical for the price and potential price. Wizards could easily reprint the Shocklands in M11 or M12 (At latest) to support the new format. This would greatly increase supply, but it would be an increase that is relative to the demand. As such, their prices would remain roughly the same, give or take a slight increase or decrease in value. Indeed, Wizards would probably initiate a new format with the reprinting of these dual lands and, perhaps, even the fetchlands.

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Thing is, these reprints would be available to Standard, Extended and Legacy-lite. Even with more put into the supply, they WILL go up in value if Legacy-lite is created.

In either case, old duals would go down in value as Legacy-lite could become more popular than Legacy.

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Comparing the Shocklands to the Conditional Lands (the M10 CIPT lands), the two present unique advantages and disadvantages. You can fetch shocklands, but they hurt a lot. You can play them without other lands in play, but they deal damage. The CIPT lands can't be fetched, but they also don't cause any damage at all. Reprinting the Shocklands in M11 would alter the Standard enviornment, especially if they were reprinted alongside the M10 lands.

Overall, the reprintability of Shocklands is critical in their potential price. If a new format came into being, Wizards would almost assuredly a) reprint the Shocklands or b) print new duals. Given the circumstances, it is far more likely that they will reprint Shocklands rather than printing new lands.

-ktkenshinx-

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- I don't care for the Shocklands since they hurt quite a bit (fetching a shockland is a Lightning Bolt to your face). Aggro decks like Zoo would become better in this format since everyone is likely to be killing themselves on Shocklands.

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Originally Posted by 2Rach

This is bull***. Unless you're stupid or lazy you have plenty of time to flip standard cards at their prime or before they hit their post-rotation bottom. You don't lose as much as you think.

There's also the fact that people who get good can just go infinite much easier because there are many more tournaments.

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But that's exactly the point, isn't it? Time is a resource, and while Eternal formats don't offer the same rewards of Constructed, they also don't financially punish you for not spending significant amounts of time bartering and haggling.

If you drop by the local nerd-hole every other afternoon anyway (or grind MODO six hours a day) then that's not a very enticing trade-off, but a good chunk of the Eternal crowd is composed precisely of the kind of people that, for whatever reason, only show up every couple of weeks at best. Or that often need, or choose, to take a months-long break from Magic. They may have as much or, often, more money than the Standard players, but without also spending the same amount of time the cost for them to always have a Tier 1 deck available would skyrocket.

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Originally Posted by ktkenshinx

4 Aether Vial (8.52) = 34.08
4 FoW (36.01) = 144.04
4 Daze (1.47) = 5.88
4 Lord of Atlantis (2.32) = 9.28
4 Standstill (6.57) = 26.28
4 Merrow Reejerey (1.11) = 4.44
3 Umezawa's Jitte (17.59) = 52.77
4 Wasteland (20.04) = 80.16
4 Mutavault (10.25) = 41
Merfolk Deck Total = 249.45-

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Let's point something very importat: The Force of Will playset makes up for more than half of the price of the deck. 120 dollars for a slightly subpar deck is very reasonable.

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Originally Posted by Nihil Credo

But that's exactly the point, isn't it? Time is a resource, and while Eternal formats don't offer the same rewards of Constructed, they also don't financially punish you for not spending significant amounts of time bartering and haggling.

If you drop by the local nerd-hole every other afternoon anyway (or grind MODO six hours a day) then that's not a very enticing trade-off, but a good chunk of the Eternal crowd is composed precisely of the kind of people that, for whatever reason, only show up every couple of weeks at best. Or that often need, or choose, to take a months-long break from Magic. They may have as much or, often, more money than the Standard players, but without also spending the same amount of time the cost for them to always have a Tier 1 deck available would skyrocket.

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But we're not talking about the Eternal crowd here. We want more support and more people to get into Legacy. This means a different crowd, the Standard guys and maybe the casual guys. The people in it we don't need to talk about, but the people who might not have the same cash flow or the same habits will be the people we're going for. And for them, it's not as good as Standard is.

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And if it does get more popular/support, that just increases the barrier by increasing the value of the staples regardless if they're a better investment than hyped up Standard chase rares.

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Originally Posted by 2Rach

But we're not talking about the Eternal crowd here. We want more support and more people to get into Legacy. This means a different crowd, the Standard guys and maybe the casual guys. The people in it we don't need to talk about, but the people who might not have the same cash flow or the same habits will be the people we're going for. And for them, it's not as good as Standard is.

EDIT:
And if it does get more popular/support, that just increases the barrier by increasing the value of the staples regardless if they're a better investment than hyped up Standard chase rares.

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The crowd change is critical. Currently, the Extended format is losing popularity. Legacy is growing slightly in popularity, and Standard is, of course, through the roof in attendance. A new format would attract a huge crowd of players:

1. Legacy players who do not have enough cards to play all the decks they want.
2. Extended players who are tired of their shrinking and under-supported format.
3. Standard players who are looking to expand into new territory
4. Casual players, many of whom play decks full of post MM cards (2000 was around the year Magic started getting popular).

This is a large demographic of Magic players, and one worth Wizards' attention. It is possible that the new format would alienate dedicated Legacy players, as well as Vintage players and hardcore Standard players. But Wizards could easily use initial momentum coupled with a good core set (M11 reprints could be awesome) to drive the format and get players interested and involved.

As to prices, anhytime that a Magic market can be regulated by reprinting, prices will not be too much of a problem. A new format would be around for the long run, and reprinting is a Macro-solution to a price problem. Shocklands is a good example of this. Sure, they would go up in price, but the difference between 9 and 19 dollars would not be too serious, especially if in-game mechanisms kept their prevalence in check. That is to say, aggro decks would LOVE to play against Fetchland/Shockland decks: free lightning bolts are good, last time I checked. They might initially spike, but would likely level out in the 10-20 range once people realized their restrictions. Then there is always the snow-dual option (although these would be wildly expensive unless they were uncommon).

-ktkenshinx-

I actually quitted Magic when Extended started to rotate faster. Do you think that is what is killing Extended?