Spiral Tide

@egosum

Ok, thanks. I've cut MBT since I'm almost 100% sure it's a card I will never have to wish for. I think I would rather have Dispel - it's good vs TES because it stops Chant from messing everything up, and it also has uses in other matchups. The Spell Pierces seem sufficient for the storm matchup, though. Rebuild was always awesome for me in the old ANT because most players will play Chalice@2 as their 2nd lock piece to block most of your bounce. If you only have H. Recall, you can, of course, still use Wipe Away EOT on the Chalice@2 and then play H. Recall to bounce the rest of the Chalices/Trinispheres, but this seems very unpractical. Then again, it's possible to argue that Lodestone Golem in Meandeck MUD will make you want H. Recall instead since Rebuild costing 4 is very bad. Not sure how popular that deck will be, but even if it can put you on a 4 turn clock instead of the usual 40 turn clock W Stax can manage, the matchup still seems very favorable.

Chalice at 2 won't be a real problem, since it cost 4, and by that time you will have enough resources to go off, or to deal with it via wipe away, it's also not very likely that a deck plays 2 chalices at you, decks that pack chalice normally pack very few card drawing (maybe loam is the exception if they play confidant, but loam is so damn slow that it is not real problem), and the first will for sure hit the CC 1 so it's not a real issue.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

Quote:

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Originally Posted by egosum

Chalice at 2 won't be a real problem, since it cost 4, and by that time you will have enough resources to go off, or to deal with it via wipe away, it's also not very likely that a deck plays 2 chalices at you, decks that pack chalice normally pack very few card drawing (maybe loam is the exception if they play confidant, but loam is so damn slow that it is not real problem), and the first will for sure hit the CC 1 so it's not a real issue.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

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Happened to me the 1st time I used this deck in a tournament.
I really can't see the downside of using Rebuild instead of Recall. 1 more mana is a good thing in this case.

Hi,
I'm running this build

4 Cloud of Faeries
3 Turnabout
4 Time Spiral
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Preordain
4 Merchant Scroll
4 High Tide
3 Cunning Wish
1 Intuition
1 Stroke of genius
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Force of Will
3 Pact of Negation
4 Polluted Delta
2 scalding Tarn
11 island

Sideboard:

3 Spell pierce
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rebuild
2 Dispel
1 Turnabout
2 Wipe Away
1 Snap
1 Echoing Truth
1 Meditate
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Brain freeze

Recently at a tournament of 24 people I've made top4 then conceided to a friend due to other engagement.
I only had one loss and one draw in the day against, respectively, CounterTop-Bant and CounterTopther. It seems that the deck is having an hard time agaist counterbalance or that I'm missing something.

My sideboard plan was
-3 Pact of Negation, -2 Cloud of Faeries, -2 Cunning Wish
+3 Spell pierce, +2 Dispel, +2 Wipe Away

I tried to build a board with 5+ lands and an hand with at least 2 counters in order to go off, but it didn't work well, escepcially against bant.

I accept any advice on sideboard strategies or deck configuration, given that the stroke in the main is going to change into a Blue Sun's Zenith.

I'm open to your criticism.

I don't think you need both hurkyll's and rebuild in the SB, i'd choose only one...

I've dropped the meditate on the side as well because I have never tutored for it...

As for the maindeck, only difference between our lists is that I run 3 retraced and 1 preordain instead of 4 cloud of fairies and 1 less pact which i have moved to the side for a land...

With affinity and MUD decks popping all around now I think that 2 spot in the SB for artifacts are viable.
As for the meditate, I never tutored for it once, plus it isn't synergic with Emrakul, so I agree with you in dropping it.

How do you manage your matches versus CounterTop?

You should not play emrakul, he is, as you said, not ynergic with meditae, which is huge, nor with pacts (specially if you have to multiple pact in a turn), also having freeze in main and side helps a lot while goldfishing so you can easily make a double freeze for the win.

Against CB-Top, your best cards are Trunabout, pierce, force of will, wipe away and brain freeze, do as many timing tricks as necessary if your opponent can resolve the balance, experience will teach you how.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

Played Tide in a tournament went 3-3:
Burn 1-2
Merfolk 0-2
Bant (no CB) 2-1
White weenie with maindeck Canonists 2-1
Bant CounterTop 2-1
High Tide mirror 0-2 - Emrakul :(

with this list:
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain

4 High Tide
4 Time Spiral
3 Turnabout
3 Cloud of Fearies
1 Snap

4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection

4 Merchant Scroll
2 Cunning Wish
1 Intuition

1 Meditate
1 Brain Freeze

5 Fetch
13 Island

-sb-
4 Spell Pierce
2 Wipe Away
1 Snap
1 Echoing Truth
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Meditate
1 BSZ
1 Turnabout
1 Brain Freeze
1 Pact of Negation
1 Mindbreak Trap

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ddt15

Played Tide in a tournament went 3-3:
Burn 1-2
Merfolk 0-2
Bant (no CB) 2-1
White weenie with maindeck Canonists 2-1
Bant CounterTop 2-1
High Tide mirror 0-2 - Emrakul :(

with this list:
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain

4 High Tide
4 Time Spiral
3 Turnabout
3 Cloud of Fearies
1 Snap

4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection

4 Merchant Scroll
2 Cunning Wish
1 Intuition

1 Meditate
1 Brain Freeze

5 Fetch
13 Island

-sb-
4 Spell Pierce
2 Wipe Away
1 Snap
1 Echoing Truth
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Meditate
1 BSZ
1 Turnabout
1 Brain Freeze
1 Pact of Negation
1 Mindbreak Trap

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Add a Blue Sun's Zenith to the deck. Is a house in this deck, a lot better than brain freeze actualy: you can use it to draw 10-25 cards easily and search it again with a drawn merchant scroll to kill your opponent

Quote:

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Originally Posted by death

My list for reference from previous page:

Namesake: 4 High Tide (Amy Weber)

10 So broken-its-Restricted-in-Vintage Cantrips
4 Brainstorm (Restricted 2008)
3 Ponder (Restricted 2008)
3 Preordain

10 Previously Banned/Restricted Untappers
4 Time Spiral (Banned/Restricted 1999)
3 Turnabout
3 Candelabra of Tawnos (Restricted 1994)

7 Combo/Solution/Meta Package Tutors
4 Merchant Scroll (Restricted 2008)
3 Cunning Wish

7 In case opponent tries-to-interact Counters
4 Force of Will
3 Pact of Negation

death's (4) Added for flavor
1 Impulse (Errata'd 2004)
1 Intuition
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

18 Lands
4 Scalding Tarn
14 Island

Sideboard

Code:

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1 Turnabout
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Meditate
1 Brain Freeze
3 Spell Pierce
2 Wipe Aways
1 Echoing Truth / 1 Snap
1 Hurkyl's Recall / 1 Rebuild
1 Mindbreak Trap / 1 Ravenous Trap

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1) Is there a huge difference between having the single Impulse versus a 4th Ponder/Preordain? I haven't seen it played (aside from Chapin's mono-blue list)
2) If the deck is so good why hasn't it put up big numbers lately? And why would I play this over TurboDrazi which has been gaining popularity recently?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

2) If the deck is so good why hasn't it put up big numbers lately? And why would I play this over TurboDrazi which has been gaining popularity recently?

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It's the TES factor: People don't play it. People that do play it lose to themselves. My record with this in tournaments is 9-2, losing to my mistakes.
And this deck does not need 4x Candelabra of Tawnos, so it is a liiiiiiitle easier to build than Turbodrazi...

Lately, I've been playtesting this deck:

4 High Tide
4 Merchant Scroll
3 Cloud of Faeries
4 Turnabout
4 Time Spiral
1 Blue Sun's Zenith

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Preordain

3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

2 Cunning Wish
1 Snap


10 Fetchlands
1 Tropical Island
8 Island

Sideboard:
1 Brain Freeze
1 Rebuild
3 Snap
3 Pact of Negation
3 Krosan Grip
4 Spell Pierce

And it's performing realy well. It's just crazy how many wins you can archieve with only 3 lands in play. It just crushes aggro and is favourable against non-counterbalance aggro-control (Merfolk with Spell PIerce main is hard, but New Horizons is not). And with Krosan Grip in the board CB is not unwinnable. With 10 fetches and the amount of cantrips and shuffling effects, I have to lose the first Tropical Island to a Wasteland yet in over 35 games.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

It's the TES factor: People don't play it. People that do play it lose to themselves.

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We need to hard test this matchup so you could provide more information about it!!

The list looks really sweet, which I would obviously say considering it's like three cards different from my own ;) The one thing I'd really want to change is moving a single PoN to the maindeck, makes Merfolk a hell of a lot better in my experience.
Also, what kind of CB were you having trouble with? In my testing I've actually been a clear favorite against the GerryT-list (no Dazes, only six creatures) preboard already. Considering your list should be even better against them (two outs to resolved CB), I'd suspect you're approaching the matchup in the wrong way if you're not beating them preboard significantly more than you lose. This might be different against lists with a faster clock and Daze (Daze on Tide when you're on a clock is really annoying from my experience against Folk and should make it significantly harder to stop their CBs from coming down) - time constraints mean I haven't tested that matchup yet.

Also, the MD Intuition has been really important for me to find Spiral fast enough against aggro to not get run over. Didn't you have any consistency-problems without it?

Out of interest, did you start testing something like this before or after you saw my article?

As to my own version, I've cut the 10th Fetch for a Preordain lately, I was seeing a few too many lands post Spiral and I always want to have a Cantrip in my starting hand, makes finding things so much easier.

/edit: This was addressed to Zinch, obviously.

@Mon,Goblin Thief:

I decided to build this deck after your article. It was inspiring, a good read!. I was a former Solidarity player, but it was long ago since I played it because I think it's not competitive actualy.

I didn't 'test the CB Mu extensively. I played about 10 preboard games from wich I won 4 I think, so is not that bad (and this was before switching the intuition for one more wish in the main). Also, was one of the first games I played with this deck, so maybe I make more mistakes than normal.

I didn't playtested any MU with SB yet, because first I want to be sure about my maindeck.

A PoN in the main is something I want to include, but I'm unsure on wich card to remove. Maybe one wish or one CS.

I had Intuition on the main, but I didn't use it even once in 30 games or so, so I removed it and I still haven't needed it. With 11 cantrips (and Merchant Scroll looking for a Brainstorm in some games against Goblins for example) I didn't have problems finding the Spirals.

Lol, that's a funny typo! (Goblin Chief not Thief, I command things stolen, I don't do the work myself ;) ) Happy to hear you enjoyed the article :D

To the Counterbalance-matchup (there is a more detailed explanation on the last page somewhere): the correct approach is to treat them as a kind of combo-deck (their combo being CB + Top) and to use your Cantrips and Merchant Scrolls to find more of your own countermagic, ignoring your own plans to go off (eg I pretty much always Scroll for FoW on turn two against them if I don't have one/don't have a Counterspell to keep up). You only have to make sure they can never stick a CB and you'll draw into Tide plus Spiral eventually to win because their clock is glacially slow. Is that the way you played the matchup?

PoN: I would probably cut the Wish, but you know my decklist already so I'm obviously biased. Whatever you decide is less important is fine, but the single PoN gives you an additional 10+% or something ridiculous like that against Fish on its own from what I've seen in my testing so far, more than paying for the one slot it costs you.

Intuition: Our experience is quite different here, I find myself Scrolling for Intuition on turn two against aggro all the time. All the better if you don't need it, it's definitely one of the weakest cards in the deck to just draw, especially after Spiral.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mon,Goblin Chief

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To the Counterbalance-matchup (there is a more detailed explanation on the last page somewhere): the correct approach is to treat them as a kind of combo-deck (their combo being CB + Top) and to use your Cantrips and Merchant Scrolls to find more of your own countermagic, ignoring your own plans to go off (eg I pretty much always Scroll for FoW on turn two against them if I don't have one/don't have a Counterspell to keep up). You only have to make sure they can never stick a CB and you'll draw into Tide plus Spiral eventually to win because their clock is glacially slow. Is that the way you played the matchup?

...

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Interesting approach to the match up. I didn't reflect much during the game, but thinking backwards I my priority was to stop CounterBalance from hitting the table; although maybe i should have tutored a FoW over a turnabout, I remember chosing the latter because I thought I could tap oppo's lands before he passed in order to go off.

While this was almost succesfull against countertopther (1-1-time= draw), versus CB Bant it wasn't enough because their clock is much faster: turn 2 goyf, turn 3 Rox Warmonk, proceding to win with counter backup. In this match I didn't had the time to fetch some counter because I was in hurry and so I lost to his counters.

I'm excluding God's Hands (T1 SDT, T2 CB, blind-flip a CC3 on my Wish) on purpouse because sometime the deck wants to win no matter what.

I really enjoyed your list too, I'm not a combo player, but I bought the missing cards for the deck after playing with it for some time, the feeling during playing is great. Could you comment a bit on the bad MUs? I haven't played against the Folk yet, but I imagine U+Clock is hard. The MUs against even medium fast U decks were nice :)

Intuition is awesome postspiral. It fetches spiral#2 if nothing else, which reduces variance. Also in my build it can also fetch Capsize via Scroll, which generally ends the game with Candelabra on the table ('sup infinite mana and bouncing your board).

@kingtk3: I've only played a few games (all on the draw) so far against the less controlish versions of CB (at least I've finally gotten around to testing them :p) and my opponent had CB + Top in hand turn 1 all five games and FoW backup in two of them (still won 2 and threw away a third. I could probably have even won the fourth with better play but I'm not confident that's the case). You definitely have to approach this matchup a little different from the true control-builds as you don't have the luxury to completely ignore their clock. This makes the match somewhat harder but at least they have fewer counters meaning you don't need as much defense, either. Note that this really is what I learned from only five games, though, so handle with care.

@Philipp2293: Thanks for trusting me enough to shell out money on the deck! Happy you enjoy it.
As to matchups, the funny thing is, I haven't found anything yet (pure pre-board testing) that is actually bad... I'm sure something will come up (or change to bad postboard) but so far the worst matchups have been about even, with NBS favored when on the play. Merfolk for example is a bitch when you're on the draw but far easier when you're on the play. Many of the aggro-matchups can be a little difficult on the draw if they have a good hand because they should goldfish turn 4 then - and you only go off turn three about half the time. I lost twice to Goblins because he killed me on his turn 3 (my turn 2), too.

@Infinitum: I hate Spiraling more than once because it gives me another chance to fizzle and my opponent another chance to draw the nut counter hand. I usually try to go off with just Tides/Untappers/Zenith post-Spiral, which should explain why I hate drawing the Intuition. It's perfectly fine and a good security-blanket to be able to simply Spiral once more, but I prefer the clean kill. Not drawing non-Spiral business forces me to cast more than one of the damn thing often enough anyway.
The whole Candelabra-thing is cute (I had Capsize instead of Wish as a removal/way to go infinite with Clouds, too) but essentially unnecessary.