Blue needs a Nerf

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Originally Posted by SlopeeJ

I'm not trying to bring the misstep debate into this thread and usually agree with what you post Bear but this doesn't make a lot of sense to me. The reason why misstep is so powerful is because of all the other cards that blue has to go with it ie force, brainstorm, daze other counterspells etc etc.

If you are playing zoo and your opp has one drops you should just go kill them.

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Kitty Zoo is an early game deck; it's problems come from two angles,

1) Late game resilience

2) Early game mana chokes

Misstep does nothing about the former, but helps enormously with the latter. The first mana you spend is often the most important. Making sure that your Nacatl or other beater sticks, your opponent is off his Aether Vial, or can't resolve a Top or Brainstorm to dig for answers, without costing you any mana so you can focus on emptying your hand to kill the opponent is enormously powerful.

Yes, either way your plan is to just go kill him, but the point is that an enormous number of things that interfere with this plan can be stopped by simply playing Misstep.

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

Yes, either way your plan is to just go kill him, but the point is that an enormous number of things that interfere with this plan can be stopped by simply playing Misstep.

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Sadly if they draw MMS in too many copies, they can't get rid of them or pitch them to Fow.

I think that meta will be healthy when people are still searching for new cards and new ways of playing. When new cards are printed (such as mental misstep) and it provokes such reactions I think the job is done well.

Each strategy has its strong and its weak points. There is just no way fix all holes. Banning of any card will cause players to replace it with the second best with similar effect.

For example, when highlander format banned Survival of the fittest people automatically tried to play Fauna shaman and now the Birthing Pod. As a result decks based around Survival returned back to play, however the meta is much healthier because only few people returned to the old theme, but as a result some combo decks are now bit overpowered.

because i dont own Force of Will yet i tried Commandeer instead as an easy to find replacement, Later Daze and Foil. All three cards have bit mixed power level but in comparation with FOW they were able to do similar job (counterspelling without having any mana).

Most players who own playsets of best rated spells usually play them, and dont care about weaker variations on same theme. From this raised "we play the best cards ever printed" and while testing of other cards was never so good as in early era. People are conservative. 10 years playing with fow will not force player to buy another playset of Foil "just in case".

However if players stick with FOW the way of banning is not the right one. Mostly it means that players were unable to find suitable counter-strategy. better way is to adapt, and evolve strategy which works against FOW. Banning of fow will just allow weaker strategies to be viable, while its remaining in Legacy will help players to adapt - but only if they are willing to adapt.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

Sadly if they draw MMS in too many copies, they can't get rid of them or pitch them to Fow.

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I mean that's also true of Path to Exile. Or lands.

I mean you're describing why Brainstorm is good, not why Zoo shouldn't play Misstep.

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Originally Posted by Offler

Banning of any card will cause players to replace it with the second best with similar effect.

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I mean this is simply a trite and over-used cliche without basis in reality. I still remember when people were trying to reconstruct the same old 1.5 decks immediately after the separation, with people playing Wormfang Crab instead of Dragon, sans the Bazaars.

Ponder and Top are no Brainstorm. Daze and Commandeer can't do the job Force does. In most decks, Path to Exile is way worse than StP. There's no easy replacement to LED or Lightning Bolt or Wild Nacatl. No one's going to play Quicksilver Amulet just because Aether Vial gets banned. Steelshaper's Gift will see all the play after an SFM banning that it did prior.

Cards are good for specific reasons. It doesn't matter their other similarities, people play Goyf and not Leatherback Baloth because the former is easy to play and cheaper and the latter costs three goddamned green mana.

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

I mean that's also true of Path to Exile. Or lands.

I mean you're describing why Brainstorm is good, not why Zoo shouldn't play Misstep.

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Which is why it's better in a blue deck. Aggro decks can't afford dead draws as easily as blue decks.

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Cards are good for specific reasons. It doesn't matter their other similarities, people play Goyf and not Leatherback Baloth because the former is easy to play and cheaper and the latter costs three goddamned green mana.

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Cards are good because people know how and when to play them, and eventually how to combine them well. If the card does not need any other cards to work it makes it easier to play. However I still meet people who play Mountain, Raging Goblin and then dont attack immediately (no blocker on my side...)


I use Brainstorm, I know why I like it. But once one guy asked me why i did not do anything during my first turn. during his turn he dropped land, mox diamond casted sensei and passed turn. I cast Brainstorm afterwards. His comment was "so you didt anything in your first turn". I dont agree with his statement, but I have to agree that his strategy produced much more mana, at any color base.

he had 2 manasources, I had one, I brainstormed my hand, he checked top of library...

so... can you tell which strategy is better? I cannot. I even do not dare. But I Tried to adapt. Island, Retraced image, Island via its resolve, waiting with Force spike/Daze on hand, or playing Brainstorm at the end of opponents turn eventually. On my own surprise it worked. At least in local meta.

I know that brainstorm means free mulligan to fix the hand and this improves chance to have that specific combination of cards i mentioned previously. STD does not have this possibility on same turn, but it has other set of advantages.

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Originally Posted by DrJones

EDIT: On a serious note, the good part about being right is that reality works regardless of opinion, and that theories are as useful as their predictive power is. Time always proves who is right, so I don't give a damn if I get mocked now as much as I didn't give a damn when I got mocked in 2007.

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You've been blithely wrong for 4 years. Also, I'm pretty sure that Jesus is coming in October.

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Originally Posted by Forbiddian

You've been blithely wrong for 4 years. Also, I'm pretty sure that Jesus is coming in October.

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Why? Legacy is getting worse and more blue-centric each year since 2006, and this year is so bad that WotC has announced Legacy-lite. If I had spent $2000 dollars on legacy staples, which I didn't, I would be worried right now. :laugh:

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

Which is why it's better in a blue deck. Aggro decks can't afford dead draws as easily as blue decks.

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And yet people play somewhat situational cards outside of blue.

But the situation in which Path or Pridemage or Misstep is likely to be good is pretty damned common.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

The problem with printing spells that stop Blue or unbanning cards that stop Blue or suggesting cards that beat blue is that they'll just be run ALONGSIDE BLUE.

Survival's the perfect example. What was one of the top decks in Legacy when it was legal? U/G Vengevine Survival. Sure, there were some G/W lists, and a G/B here or there, maybe a mono-green, but there was also a ton of blue. And that was then. This is now, in the Mental Misstep era. I've played against a few Intuition/Vengevine/Madness decks since then, and like every other deck it can just win off the back of being able to tap out every turn and have 12 cards in the deck that disrupt your shit.

Stoneforge Mystic's another example. It's a great white card. It's pretty good against blue, especially now that Batterskull exists. What does Owen Turtenwald do? Stick it in a blue control shell and top 8 a Grand Prix.

Aether Vial supposedly beats blue if you resolve it, right? Except that the primary deck that runs it is also mono blue. Seems good.

You get my point, right? There's very little you can unban, print, etc. that can't just be splashed into blue and be better. Most cards that beat your opponents' blue don't also kill your own.

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This x1000.

Try to think of something that actually hurts prominent blue decks but that isn't easily integrated into them, and isn't so narrow as to be dead in non-blue matchups. The closest I can come is Thrun or Sable stag.

Still, blue is a necessary evil, it's just unfortunate that it just seems to keep getting new tools to work with while red and black just keep getting chaff and marginal improvements to old cards.

Seriously, who even started this thread?

There's been 8 different decks in top 8 of latest Legacy GP, with decks like dredge, goblins lurking just outside of that scope...
Every SCG tournament keeps shifting and top 8 is more player dependent than deck dependent.

Will we have these kind of topics after EVERY GP?

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Originally Posted by Pippin

Seriously, who even started this thread?

There's been 8 different decks in top 8 of latest Legacy GP, with decks like dredge, goblins lurking just outside of that scope...
Every SCG tournament keeps shifting and top 8 is more player dependent than deck dependent.

Will we have these kind of topics after EVERY GP?

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Well, this is an eternal format where a single card can shift the meta game. People need a little excitement once in awhile.

Probably the format just needs a good ''hate'' strategy available. Randomly ''Hate'' pops up in vintage, but it's very rarely played in legacy. Problem is that there are not enough very good hatebears available. Revoker is very good, but it's also a mere 2/1. Thrun and Great Sable Stag are good during the combat phase, but that's it. Magus of the Moon is too slow at 3 cc. Hex Parasite and Vexing Shusher are nice, but they're both too narrow. Probably the best one as a ''catch all'' answer is still Glowrider, or even better a combination of Glowrider + Mana Denial + random hatebears such as Gaddock ,Aven Mindcensor, Meddling Mage.
Anyway, Blue doesn't need bans. Probably other colours just need better anti-Blue hatebears that are unsplashable in U based strategies ( like Glowrider, for example).

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Originally Posted by DrJones

Why? Legacy is getting worse and more blue-centric each year since 2006, and this year is so bad that WotC has announced Legacy-lite. If I had spent $2000 dollars on legacy staples, which I didn't, I would be worried right now. :laugh:

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Yeah, Wizards of the Coast made a new format because Legacy is soooo bad... Oh wait, they actually had to make a new format because Legacy is so popular it caused demand to go through the roof and prices of the cards have skyrocketed since 2006. Oh, and I'm sure Legacy staples will tank in value now that WotC announced a new format that pretty much won't exist unless Legacy staples keep going up [/sarcasm]. Dual lands will probably go up at least 20% in the next 3 years. At this point Wizards has more or less written in stone that they will never ever reprint Dual lands. Duals are never going below 85% of what they are at right now and if they do it will only be temporary. Why don't you go play Modern now? It's obvious every time you open your mouth you have no idea what you are talking about and its obvious you are mad at Force of Will because it rains on your parade AND you don't have Legacy staples. No but seriously go play Modern and never come back. As there is now an official format without FoW I'd say you have no reason to complain about that any more, just go play a format that is more your speed.

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Originally Posted by Fsk

Actually FOW basically keeps the entire format in check, by making every non-blue deck suboptimal.

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Except decks like Zoo, Dredge, and everything non-blue that simply doesn't care about FOW anyway.

Really, I cannot find the right reason why they printed card like Mental Misstep. The meta before of this printing was very healthy - so many different strategies at Star City Opens - it was unbelievable . The only really strong deck was High Tide...but Wizards made this possible by unbanning Time Spiral.

The only reason I see in printing Mental Misstep is to fight combo decks. But in reality this card just push out of the meta so many different decks - Goblins, Junk, Death and Taxes, Elves along with all combo. May be only Zoo and Dredge survive. The card just close the door for many decks, not only current ones but deck of the future.

The peoples saying the meta should adapt and "Mental Misstep is a narrow card" are insane. The card it's just too good, the card is right after Brainstorm in Fow in terms of power.

In my testing i just discovered that Mental Misstep is a way more powerful than a Thoughtseize for example. Why any non blue deck should ever run Thoughtseize right now ? They blue decks can just countering with no mana or they can brainstorm and hide the cards. Why someone will ever play the best spot discard spell versus the blue mages ?

SO you get my point - the real problem right now it's not in FoW or Brainstorm it's in the new card. Yes the combo should be tamed, but this is not the right way. Mental Misstep can be completely different and nice card if counter only Instant and Sorcery - Dark Ritual, Brainstorm, Ponder, Rite of Flame, Silence, Orim's Chant, Duress, High Tide.

So...I don't see any other way but to ban Mental Misstep.

The metagame will adapt, Loam decks will come back and be the rage, see Lands and the various garden decks becoming more and more popular.

Also the midrange bomb decks will also rise up to kill the counter based decks that are playing spell snare and mental misstep. When your deck "skips" one and two drops suddenly the odds are quite a bit more fair.

This is very similar to when spell snare was printed but a lot more extreme, the fact that the card is free is really just a bonus but right now the format revolves around bomb one drop cards and that cannot be the case in this mental misstep metagame.

Lets see... no storm combo AND no countertop?

Time to break out my burn deck!

i had the same thought last tournament and it worked wonders :)
grim lavamancer and goblin guide rule the format right now :D

Wizards need to print this:

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Tomas de Torquemada :wr:
Legendary Creature - Human Cleric
Tomas can't be countered
Whenever a spell is played without paying mana cost, counter that spell.
1/1

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On more serious note, I urge you to be patient, intellegent and opened for innovations.
Note: my pet is DnT and Misstep striked it badly. But I take it as challenge to my deckbuilder abilities and a footstep to improvement. Positive mindstate actually helps (not only in magic).