See you later stoneblade. Hello Counterbalance.
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See you later stoneblade. Hello Counterbalance.
Blade CounterTop. With Snapcaster Mage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatar of Shadow
I really don't get why everyone thinks countertop is good because mental misstep is banned.
Countertop died as a competative archtype way before mental misstep was printed due to an overabundance of vial decks in the format. Guess what decks people will start playing against when there is a no 1v1 answer to lackey/vial on the draw.
I'm not saying stoneforge/countertop is bad. I even like the ideal but countertop was not good against the pre-misstep meta. The printing of batterskull might have changed that ofcourse giving you actual game against vial agro decks but to say that countertop is going to automatically the face of control again seems fallacious.
I'm sure you can still run some number of hard + conditional counters in the 4 freed up slots and have this deck keep on trucking with only a slight drop in power level.
Misstep was good but not the only reason this deck won.
Stoneforge/stable manabase/absurd equipment/excellent permission all still exists.
W/E my two cents
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wirrsturm
Batterskull will help fix CTs issue with vial decks. I'll get a list ready in the morning.
Snapcaster Mage seems a lot worse without Mental Misstep. I think Countertop-Thopters is the way to go, with SFM being able to fetch Sword of the Meek. What do you think?
here is my new shell that I played to first place at another 50+ man tournament (we have them about once a month around here) that I have updated for the bannings (I'll miss you Mental Misstep) and playtested extensively for the past couple of hours against various archetypes. It's looking promising so far.
Changes from previous list:
Main:
-1 Spellstutter Sprite
-1 Ancestral Visions
-1 Mutavault
+2 Thopter Foundry
+1 Sword of the Meek
Side:
-1 Sword of War and Peace
+1 Crucible of Worlds
Post-Banning Changes:
Main:
-4 Mental Misstep (*sniffle*)
+ 1 Swords to Plowshares
+3 Daze
Side:
-1 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Misdirection
Maindeck:
Creatures:
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Spellstutter Sprite
Countermagic:
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Spell Snare
Draw:
4 Brainstorm
3 Ancestral Vision
Planeswalkers:
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Removal:
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Wrath of God
Arifacts and Equipment:
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Crucible of Worlds
Lands:
4 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland
3 Mutavault
1 Academy Ruins
4 Island
1 Plains
Sideboard:
3 Pyroblast
1 Wrath of God
2 Path to Exile
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Misdirection
1 Crucible of Worlds
Not really sure still where the cuts would be for Snapcaster Mage, but I do know that this deck REALLY wants him. I know that cutting Spellstuter Sprite is NOT correct as that 1/1 flyer/conditional counterspell is a fantastic in this deck.
No, I'm still not playing Vendilion Clique and no i don't have a good reason for it other that i don't own the card and am not a fan of playing it in general anyways. Yes, I know how good it is.
The addition of a secondary win-con in the Thopter/Sword combo seriously helps out against Game One scenarios against decks like G/x Maverick, helps to race Progenitus from NO RUG, and also gives us a quicker kill option against Dredge for Game One when we don't have our hate. I am tempted to shave somewhere in order to add a 3rd Thopter Foundry.
Lets get the ball rolling shall we? I predict that Storm decks are going to make a reappearance. Goblins also will be coming back. We need something that can fight both. I got a shell here for a BladeTop deck:
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Counterbalance
2 Batterskull
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Vedalken Shackles
4 Flooded Strand
7 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
4 Tundra
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
This is just a shell to get it going. We could do a few things with this deck like splash red for:
Grim Lavamancer
Pyroblast
Red Elemental Blast
Also, what sort of sideboard should we have now?
I think that we have to prepare for a resurgence of Vial decks. In that case, Grim lavamancer is probably the best card to splash for. If combo gets obnoxious, obviously Countertop would be the best bet. Also, we have Snapcaster Mage as a new toy to play with. I'll test this list to start:
4 SFM
3 Clique
3 Grim
2 Snappy
1 Batterskull
1 SOFF
4 Brainstorm
4 FOW
4 Jace TMS
3 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
4 STP
2 Bolt
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
3 Volc
1 Plateau
1 Island
1 Karakas
I think Countertop is already very mana intensive, pairing it with SFM does not seem like the best Idea. Tarmo/Snapcaster probably suits the Countertop package best IMO. Time will tell I guess.
It might be too mana intensive, but on the other hand, I think the two plans could complement each other very well. Against Vial decks, where Counterbalance doesn't really do much, you have Batterskull, and against combo decks, where Stoneforge into Batterskull is kinda slow, you can just concentrate on setting up the CounterTop lock, after which it doesn't really matter that much if you kill is two turns slower than the alternative.
I like the interaction between snapcaster mage and enlightened tutor... And a lot of other sweet synergies like autoprotection from spell snare when you draw snapcaster with top. a chumper+1/2 sword to plowshares makes it easier to protect jace. A decent respons to standstill... the list goes on. Here's my old list with some stoneforge/snapcasters.
CREATURES (8)
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
ENCHANTMENTS (6)
4 Counterbalance
1 Dark Tutelage
1 Moat
SORCERIES (2)
2 Ponder
INSTANTS (16)
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
PLANESWALKERS (3)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
ARTIFACTS (11)
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Batterskull
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Ensnaring Bridge
LANDS (22)
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Swamp
1 Plains
6 Island
1 Academy Ruins
1 Seat of the Synod
SIDEBOARD
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sundial of the Infinite
3 Path to Exile
1 Serenity
4 Dark Confidant
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Thoughtseize
1 Ethersworn Canonist
And an easy switch from UW-blade. -4 misstep +4 tops -3 thopter/1 sfm or 4 spellstutters +4 counterbalance. Im very tempted to splash a color since the manabase really can't afford lands that doesn't produce U (for UU turn 2). I.e wasteland/mishra's factory/mutavault
CREATURES (7)
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Vendilion Clique
ENCHANTMENTS (4)
4 Counterbalance
INSTANTS (14)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
PLANESWALKERS (4)
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
ARTIFACTS (7)
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Sensei’s Divining Top
LANDS (24)
3 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
5 Island
2 Plains
3 Mishra’s Factory
3 Wasteland
SIDEBOARD
2 Disenchant
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Path to Exile
2 Wrath of God
3 Spell Pierce
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
thoughts?
- Basically this. If one plan gets invalidated, the other is there to back it up. Stoneforge takes care of the vial decks while CounterTop takes care of the combo decks. Red could be splashed to help futher fight goblins and merfolk ala Grim Lavamancer. Splashing red also gives us ways to fight other blue decks. I think it's the best shot Blade Control and CounterTop have at becoming a tier 1 deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by RainbowPenguin
As an example of a RUW BladeTop deck:
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Counterbalance
2 Batterskull
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Sideboard
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Pyroblast
3 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
- I know the lack of MMS is a bit discouraging but we shouldn't give up on the SFM -> BS plan just yet.
@ DragonFireheart: I like the idea of that list. I'm not sure that you want two Batterskulls, since it will be harder to protect Mystic without MM. I'm not sure what I would want instead, perhaps 1 Batterskull, 1 Sword of the Meek (in addition to 2-3 Thopter Foundry). But perhaps that is a different deck entirely.
I am not sold on two Counterspell main, what with Lavamancer, Mystic and Top costing mana to run, and tapping out for those plus Jace. 4 Counterbalance and 4 Jace also seems kinda heavy. I think the deck could use a sweeper of some kind, even with the Lavamancers.
With modifications:
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Engineered Explosives/Firespout +2
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Brainstorm
0 Counterspell -2
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare +1
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Counterbalance -1
1 Batterskull -1
1 Sword of the Meek +1
2 Thopter Foundry +2
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor -2
I really wanted one more Lavamancer and one more Foundry, but I can't decide on any more cuts.
The Sideboard would include the fourth Counterbalance, as well as the third and maybe fourth Jace.
Jace, CounterTop and Stoneforge Mystic are all cards that are relatively poor if you are behind, but that gain value the longer the game goes on. How best to provide the necessary breathing room is the tough question, imo. I vote for more sweepers.
I already had decided EE seemed to be a must due to vial. No sense letting them have that jump. On top of that, Belcher got a boost from not having Misstep and I wanted a defense vs that crap. I always hated how that deck could dump a ton of gobbos on you so quick. EE fixes a lot of the problems that Misstep took care of. It's about the best replacement I knew of.
People will be slow to change from No Rug and such also. Lavamancers seem really, really good all of a sudden since some old pet decks will be back just due to people thinking they are viable again even if they aren't.
I also think Lavamang will be really good especially if goblins and merfolk get played heavily again. I have started to draw up plans to incorporate a heavier red splash in this deck for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by dahcmai
@RainbowPenguin: I think running Firespout in this deck is a bad idea. It kills our grims and it kills our SFM. It's good in Supreme blue because Tarmogoyf could live through it and Clique could fly over the flames (since you could simply not use green mana).
@dahcmai: I've always hated Engineered Explosives. It seems very slow: 1 mana to drop it and another 2 to use it. EE also screws with our curve a little bit for using CB Finally, we can risk killing our own Grims if we are running them. It's for those reasons that I don't like . I think it's worth testing out Repeal as it has other uses and arguably gives us more tempo. I also think focusing on killing the green/blue men rather than stopping their vials is the best route for fighting them. Running grims and maybe even running Lightning Bolt for extra removal and reach are the best ways to go about fighting vial aggro decks.
Land 24
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
3 Wasteland
2 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
1 Karakas
Creatures 11
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Vendilion Clique
Other Spells 25
4 Brainstorm
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
Sideboard 15
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Cursed Totem
2 Disenchant
2 Path to Exile
2 Spell Pierce
2 Wrath of God
1 Engineered Explosives
That's the thing about Snapcaster: there isn't really room for him and Clique.
Vendilion Clique and Snapcaster Mage: which is better and why?
No offense, but I don’t think this list can make it in the new environment. Without Mental Misstep, we all have to be ready to beat decks that are a lot faster. Reanimator already is a deck to beat (granted, they loose MM too), and I expect Storm combo and High Tide to make a comeback. Apart from Forces and maybe the Spell Snares, there is nothing to stop them. Ancestral Visions will be way too slow, and neither Jace nor SFM have a big impact here. Dredge will also be pretty hard to beat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
On the other hand, we have to be able to deal with Aether Vial aggro decks. Wraths may be good here, but again, probably a tad slow. Goblins will be refilling their hand too quickly with Ringleader and Matron. SFM into Batterskull is still a good answer to have against aggro, and it will help tremendously against e.g. Merfolk.
Further, the deck does not seem to be tuned to abuse Snapcaster Mage. Right now, I only see Brainstorm, Swords and Spell Snare as viable flashback targets, so the 4-off seems wrong to me. Granted, Surgical Extraction is very good with Snapcaster Mage. The Mage was a ton better with Mental Misstep, since you could cast it on turn 2 and have a flashback target, but I think it can still be very good now, if you build your deck around it with enough dedicated targets.
A card that I have been finding myself siding in almost every matchup (even before the banning) was Spell Pierce. I obviously wanted it against combo, I wanted it in the Mirror against Jace and for the counter-war in general, I wanted in against NO Rug and I even wanted it against Zoo to handle GSZ and the burn spells they fire at me. Spell Pierce will be pretty good in the upcoming meta I guess, and it also goes very well with Snapcaster Mage. It also handles Aether Vial, at least on the play (or if it does not happen to come down turn 1).
The second card I’ve been looking at was Stifle. Stifle will resolve a lot more now without Mental Misstep running around everywhere. I don’t think of it as a “Stifle-Wasteland-Daze” tempo Stifle, but more like a “Control the important triggers” Stifle, in the way of “Nice Squire!”, “No you don’t draw 7 with that Jin”, “2 Tendrils loss of life only” and so on.
Still, there is always the opportunity to Stifle an opposing Wasteland or Fetchland if he happens to me mana-screwed anyway, but I don’t think of it as a primary goal. I believe Stifle should be good against Goblins too, as their creatures don’t do much without the “comes into play” trigger. If we can shut down the important abilities, we should be able to ignore Aether Vial to some extend and focus on our game plan without being overrun. And again, snapping back Stifle looks strong in theory.
Thoughts?
A shameless post to encourage people to visit my new thread:Quote:
Originally Posted by TkDodo
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22210-Deck-CounterBlade&p=589359#post589359
Why is there a lot of talk about Counterbalance after the MM banning? I don't see making it the cut. Which decks is it really good against at the moment.
Yes, it's good against combo but the rest of the decks are running wide-spread mana-curves and utilize things like GSZ which work wonders against Counterbalance.
Additionally there are also things like Vial and Stoneforge Mystic that help playing around Counterbalace if not countered.
I just don't see it being good enough anymore.