Esperblade wins the Grand Prix!
Printable View
Esperblade wins the Grand Prix!
Lingering Souls ftw
After watching Martels matches in the Top 8, I was not that impressed with Lingering Souls in this deck. The card is great, to be sure, but had he run Mother of Runes instead, I think it would have been better against both the Maverick matchups and the Delver matchup.
How many times did he tutor up a Batterskull, only to have his SFM get killed?
EDIT: I do agree that Lingering Souls is a much stronger option than Geist of Saint Traft, at any rate.
Lingering soul is the way you ignore the entirety of Macerick. Try can't handle flyers and isnonenif the decks rougher match ups. Flyers with Jitte is in te same vain of bitter blossom. The advantage comes in that it also gives you more tokens to keep the attackers at bay from your planes walkers
In a build with Jace TMS like Martell's list, I agree. He's alot more midrangey, and so spending 5 mana to make four 1/1 fliers isn't a bad plan.
I don't think Lingering Souls belongs in a build like mine that runs Dark Confidant instead of Jace, and already runs Mother of Runes for protection/evasion.
I don't think either build is strictly better, either. I'm partial to my build because it's more reminiscent of UWb Fish, and I like how much more aggressive it is in the earlier turns of the game with Wasteland and Daze, and of course Mom + Confidant vs Souls + Jace, but I think both builds are Tier 1 caliber decks.
Tom's winning list
Main Deck
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Karakas
2 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
3 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Tower of the Magistrate
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Batterskull
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
3 Force of Will
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Intuition
4 Lingering Souls
2 Ponder
1 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Vindicate
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Sideboard
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Darkblast
1 Disenchant
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Force of Will
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Perish
2 Spell Pierce
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Zealous Persecution
Also, as Tom said, Intuition for three Lingering Souls is pretty sick, given that the flashback cost is so cheap. Between the one hard cast and the three flashbacks, that's eight 1/1 flyers you can have access to.
Intuition for 3 Lingering Souls is definitely powerful. Eight 1/1 fliers is a lot of board presence. My only concern is that it seems a bit slow at 12 total mana, costing an inital 5 for the first two 1/1 fliers.
In his game loss to Delver (don't remember if it was g1 or g2), his opponent kept him off the mana he needed to cast Lingering Souls. He also lost his SFM to a Bolt (which tutored for Batterskull). I can't help but think that Mother of Runes could have won him that one.
Intution into Lingering Souls is pretty efficient for what it gives you. You note that you get 8 1/1 flyers for 12 mana. But that's just as good as the Sword of the Meek/Thopter Foundry combo.
If you do the Sword of the Meek/Thopter Foundry combo, you have to find two cards to make it work instead of just one (Intuition). You pay two for the sword, two for the foundry, and then one for each 1/1 flyer you make. So it get up to 8 1/1 flyers, you have to invest 12 mana--the exact same amount as Intution/Lingering Souls. Plus, Thopter combo is vulnerable to both graveyard hate and artifact removal, whereas Lingering Souls is only vulnerable to the former. Thopter combo does give the added benefit of life gain and can make more than 8 flyers (although you probably don't need more than eight to win in most situations).
Intution for Souls is also vulnerable to graveyard hate...
you get pretty sick value out of surgical extraction ;)
I am wondering whether there should be at least one Cabal Therapy among the discard spells. 2 would be even better, as an Intuition for Lingering Souls + Therapy + Therapy should be devastating. Thoughtseize's function (especially in a deck like this) is a bit different, though, as it is nearly guaranteed to hit a card while a blind Therapy wouldn't do so necessarily.
Also, is Lingering Souls x4 the correct number? I'd hate to have 2 in my opening hand, so maybe 3 is a more convenient number? This would allow us to play 3 Inquisition of Kozilek and 2 Cabal Therapy for example, thus strengthening the discard package.
Somewhere in the coverage Tom mentions that he wasn't happy with Tower of the Magistrate and that another Tundra would probably be his first choice for replacing it. I thought about other utility lands like Volrath's Stronghold or Academy Ruins, but I guess this would only increase my urge to expand on the Intuition toolbox too much (like adding Stronghold + Shriekmaw or Ruins + EE and so on).
I saw this one a bit too late, sorry. Do you really think that people will board GY hate against this? I'd rather think that cards like Sulfur Elemental would see more play. It's still possible, though, but highly depends on how many people will start picking this one up. My first guess for boarding against this would be REB's and Artifact Hate, but maybe you're right, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by catmint
I think Riptide Laboratory can take Tower's slot.
I'm not undermining the power of Intuition/Souls. I get it, 8 1/1 fliers can be rediculous to deal with. I know this first hand because I've played quite a bit with a W/b Tokens deck that I have a thread for in N&D.Quote:
Intution into Lingering Souls is pretty efficient for what it gives you. You note that you get 8 1/1 flyers for 12 mana. But that's just as good as the Sword of the Meek/Thopter Foundry combo.
If you do the Sword of the Meek/Thopter Foundry combo, you have to find two cards to make it work instead of just one (Intuition). You pay two for the sword, two for the foundry, and then one for each 1/1 flyer you make. So it get up to 8 1/1 flyers, you have to invest 12 mana--the exact same amount as Intution/Lingering Souls. Plus, Thopter combo is vulnerable to both graveyard hate and artifact removal, whereas Lingering Souls is only vulnerable to the former. Thopter combo does give the added benefit of life gain and can make more than 8 flyers (although you probably don't need more than eight to win in most situations).
My point was that in a deck like this, the initial 5 mana for two 1/1 fliers, with a cost of 12 total, seems a bit slow. CounterTop Thopter decks themselves are slow, but they manage to stabilize with cards like Moat, Humility, or Ensaring Bridge, etc, and the tokens that they slowly crank out also gain life to stabilize. I watched CounterTop Thopter's get beat in an earlier ggslive match because it did absolutely nothing relevant for the entirety of the early game (I think it was against RUG Tempo).
Comparing the Intuition/Souls combo to the Thopter/Foundry is a very valid point, as I do think Intuition/Souls is a much better engine than Thopter/Foundry, for several reasons. However, both of those engines are slow, and seem like they would fit much better into a dedicated control deck. Tom's deck is definitely further along the control curve than a list like the one I'm running, but it's still an aggro/control deck.
That's all I was getting at. Also, I'm not trying to argue against his build. He just won the friggin Grand Prix with it. If I was going for a slower version, further down the control spectrum, his build is pretty close to what I'd run. I'm only questioning if Intuition into Souls is fast enough to be relevant, in this particular deck.
I suggested to him to run Quiet Speculation for value - he almost ran it :P
It doesn't make sence to compare to thopter/sword. Intuition is a 1-off, so the deck isn't really looking to get a early intuition off.
" I'm only questioning if Intuition into Souls is fast enough to be relevant"
With 1 intuition, intuition->soul ASAP play isn't what the deck is aiming for.
Intuition in the deck is obviously not just for Lingering Souls x3. The Darkblast should be clear of that. I think even Unearth would be sweet in the package - Intuition -> Snapcaster Mage, Unearth, Clique. Hawtsauce.
Against a deck running lingering souls, intuition and snapcaster mage I guess a lot of decks would bring in 2 extraction. It will only be a dead card if you are winning anyway I guess...Quote:
Originally Posted by Blitzbold
Even if you just extract the first lingering souls... you trade "half a card" (which happens to be 2 1/1 flying bodies" versus 1 card and as a bonus you take out 1 of 3 potent win-conditions from the deck.
Love the comparision with thopter combo in terms of mana to develop 8 tokens...
I think it is a lot stronger because you don't need to run any "dead" cards... every single lingering souls or intution is just a powerful card on its own...
I think the deck looks amazing.
Props to Martell for running a list based on me and my team's deck. And extra props for giving us the credit on his twitter
I found a copy of your list on TCDecks. Do you guy have a discussion or something that we can check out?Quote:
Originally Posted by Drac
Nah im sorry, most of the stuff is in real life or text message