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Explain this one again. Coudn't you only discard after drawing for the turn, discarding on your cleanup, then they can tap their Relic on their turn to remove the card? I'm not getting it.
Here yeah, Bauble is a badass.
This also works though they can sac the Relic to set you back a little.
I used phantasmagorian to dump six cards, including both dread return targets and 2 bridges, beacuse I thought I had a dread return in hand. Wasn't actually there, lol.
-Chris-
They can only tap Relic once every turn cycle, as it only untaps in their untap step. The thing is, whenever you discard cards EOT you're actually discarding during cleanup rather than in the end of turn step, so no one gets priority unless something triggers (like Megrim or Basking Rootwalla). This means that even though you're discarding before they untap, they can't exile your dredger/other card on this turn cycle. This means that they'll have to untap, then exile your card at some point, and if you can cycle a card (say, Gitaxian Probe) before your next discard, you'll have 2 cards in the graveyard (the Probe and that discard) after they exile for the turn cycle. Then they untap for the next turn cycle, tap Relic, and you exile your cycling card (again, this is Gitaxian Probe in this case) keeping the dredger safe, and forevermore blanking (well, close to blanking) Relic's tap ability.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanti
All in all, Relic only sets you back by about a turn (especially if you exile a Bauble, as you even keep the draw effect from the Bauble in that case) plus the graveyard sweeper effect of setting you back by about 3 turns (ish). With Street Wraith, it doesn't really set you back much at all.
Absurd as this may sound, most of the decks that are doing well right now can't draw one fewer relevant card and beat us, even with about 4 extra turns.
Alright, this may have been a total win but .... beer > magic. Pure and simple, tonight I went to my local cardshop and went 2-1 due to a single card. I won everything that I expected, won through hate, and only really lost to Leyline. I would have gone farther, 100%, but I would rather hang out w friends and drink beers than play 7+ hours of Magic against dumb fuckers playing Stoneforge and Merfolk BS in order to potentially win 25$ store credit. Here is what I played tonight followed by a short report:
4x Dread Return
3x Deep Analysis
4x Narcomoeba
4x Phantasmo
4x Nether Shadow
4x Grave Troll
4x Shambling Shell
4x Street Wraith
2x Sphinx of Lost Truths
4x Bridge From Below
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
1x Flame Kin Zealot
4x Golgari Thug
4x Ichorid
4x Stinkweed Imp
2x Gigapede
Sideboard
3x Angel of Despair
4x Leyline of Sanctity
4x Mindbreak Trap
4x Faerie Macabre
Round 1 - 3c Stoneforger Bullshit
g1 - He gets turn 2 Stoneforge turn 4 Battle shit equipped w the pro black pro green sword .... he simply cant race 14+ zombie token on turn 5.
g2 - Opens w Leyline of the Void.
g3 - Opens w Leyline of the Void.
Round 2 - Burn
g1 - He kills me on turn 4 after bad dredges.
g2 - Open w White Leyline and outrace him after shitty dredges and 2+ recurring Ichorids.
g3 - 100% race, keep a decent hand w GGT and 6 others, dredge fairly well, and on turn 3 have 2 Spirits + 2 Ichorids and force him to kill his first Grim Lavamancer, then DR Sphinx forces him to Fireblast his other Lavamancer since I have 2 Bridges in the yard removed. Therapy misses but I am at 10 life and next turn bring back 9+ damage ... Therapy + recurring dudes > burn. When its working semi-well, there is no deck capable of out-racing dredge that isn't storm combo.
Round 3 - B/W Confidant
( I know I am going 2 the bars w my buddies so I give him the win 2-1.... but when we played here is what happened).
g1- Turn 1 GGT discard + Wraith cycle hits Phantasmo, I empty my hand keeping a Narcomoeba and recur 2x Ichorids, swap Gigapede w GGT and dredge into nothing. It doesn't matter. Ichorid hits Swords and then he just loses to raw aggro since I had a Bridge in my opening hand. The game is over by turn 4, the pure aggression of this deck is unmatched, especially against any deck which packs massive discard. He never once Hymned me ... cause it would no doubt help!
g2 - He opens w Crypt and I discard Troll. Turn 2 I dredge into Moeba + Bridge + Shadow and dont get hit. He eventually Crypts me on turn .... 3-4 with a Ratchet Bomb in play w 0 counters to kill zombies. I make jokes about never drawing LED and .. draw it w DA in hand and dredge 11 cards. He loses 2 turns later easily due to Ichorid, Shadow, and Moebas. His Crypt hit me early on ... but I Therapied him before going all in on LED. But, he is a cool guy and I like drinking more than 25$ of store credit. So I give him the win 2-1 and hit the bars w my buddies.
U know, this deck is unbelievably powerful. Especially in this time of morons playing Standstill bullshit. But really, there is a lot of potential. Black leyline + Yixlid Jailer = the end of game. Being a combo player I can accept this, because u are capable of accepting auto-losses and making other matchups more favorable. There is no BEST deck, its that simple. Non-LED Dredge would not produce these results. I would have lost all of these matchups due to Mental Misstep, since all 3 were packing them main and hit Therapy. U have to find a medium, and I think this list is ... just great compared to most. I am more than happy tp pack it into black Leyline ... only morons play it since Relic + Crypt is better.
This is a pretty standard list, except the LED plus Deep Analysis package. I wonder if you were satisfied with it? To me it seems that the usual way of just having 4 Sphinxes is enough to mill your whole deck once you've started your engine. And it's actually more reliable, because you don't need to have the LED in your opener. Also, it takes up 7 slots from your deck and exchanges graveyard-relevant cards for graveyard-useless cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
I really feel as though the Deep Analysis and Lion's Eye Diamond package is more detrimental to the overall strategy of the deck. The only time you're capable of casting Deep Analysis from the graveyard is with a Lion's Eye Diamond in hand. Given the fact the deck should never purposefully draw more than one card a game, it doesn't seem useful to bank on drawing into it in your opening seven.
Now, Deep Analysis and Lion's Eye Diamond force you to be interactive with your opponent, which can be a problem. If L.E.D. gets countered or Deep Analysis gets Flashback-countered, there really is no help they can offer after turn one. Granted, you get a more explosive start by discarding your hand - which is good - but it also doesn't really do anything beyond what the Bauble plan, Probe, or Street Wraith can already do at a reasonable pace.
I am currently running a sideboard configuration that looks like this:
4 [VI]Emerald Charm
4 [MM]Land Grant
4 [NE]Reverent Silence
3 [A]Forest
In testing, the power of Land Grant has been enormous. It basically replaces itself (which is huge because it doesn't put the land directly into play, and in a situation where you have eight cards in hand, you maintain eight cards if it resolves), which is key.
I have been testing the hell out of Emerald Charm over Nature's Claim, and a startling difference I've been seeing over the course of simulated Leyline-opened starts is that you don't want to offer your opponent any more life than they are entitled to. Reverent Silence grants them six already, which is, in essence, a pseudo-'Time Walk,' but it also takes care of multiple Leyline starts and doesn't require you to tap mana to be cast. Emerald Charm is devoid of giving your opponent any sort of bonus, which is good because Manaless builds don't have the luxury of giving time - or any advantage, for that matter - to an opponent to win the game.
This deck, as we all know, has little trouble getting around Crypt and Relic. Leyline has been the card I've solely been targeting in my testing and I've noticed that Emerald Charm, while prone to Misstep, is just as good as Nature's Claim in the general sense it doesn't grant your opponent the extra life. The deck needs to facilitate a kill as fast as possible, and this is basically the framework for which I have predicated my testing on. Simulating Leyline-opened starts is difficult because the mulligan factor is key in (potentially) weakening an opponent's start, so I've been testing multiple games at a set 7, 6, 5, etc. cards to see how the deck fares using this sideboard configuration.
The added bonus of Reverent Silence and Emerald Charm hammering down on Enchantress decks is also very good, as it remains one of the deck's worst match-ups. At this point, given the volume of Pulp's results, mine last week at a local event (losing three rounds straight to Leyline - without an opponent mulling once), and the general consensus of 'scooping' it up, I have been very happy with this configuration. Land Grant has been bonkers, and its utility has helped tremendously.
You could also run Dryad Arbor in place of a Forest or two, but I'm trying to maximize the utility of both sideboarded spells as Arbor cannot tap the turn it comes into play and can ultimately succumb to removal of any kind - including Wasteland. My method of thinking is strictly 'safety-first' in my whole sideboard strategy - while not diluting the strength of the pre-board deck in the process. The deck plays balls to the wall, so there is really no reason to overextend into your sideboard for additional Dread Return targets when the ones in the pre-board should be good enough and fast enough to win those games handily as it stands.
Enchantments are the cards giving us problems, gentlemen; it's time we address it and do something about it. Or shelve the deck; take your pick.
If I understood you correctly you don't have anything in your main 60 that helps the anti-Leyline sideboard plan, right?
I guess that brings advantages but disadvantages as well. No diluting the main strategy, but in turn only a very slim chance to get all you need together when it comes to beating Leyline.
But I agree that the board doesn't really have any use for 14 DR targets. I wouldn't be sure though, if I wanted to dedicate my whole board to Leyline while I could also use some slots for Combo hate (Mindbreak Trap) and maybe 2-3 utility DR targets.
You have three (3) Forests and four (4) Land Grants; that gives you seven (7) initial ways to obtain at least one (1) Forest card without mulling to start the game. Combine that with eight (8) ways of dealing with Leyline at a maximum cost of one mana - in addition to being forced to draw cards each turn and inherently strengthening your chances of drawing into any combination of cards needed to destroy Leyline - and I think you have a pretty good chance to take care of business. (Or at the very minimum, increase your chances of surviving the game.)
The sideboard can be adjusted to different quantities or similar effects, but I'm not having any trouble with this configuration so far. Remember, even if an opponent mulligans into oblivion to find a Leyline, more than likely you'll start the game off with (at least) one of the combination pieces of ways to deal with it. Assuming you don't have the other, you can still draw each turn and that will give you an opportunity to find an answer. Meanwhile, your opponent has succumbed to an awful start in the desperate attempt to cripple you, while crippling themselves in the process.
Not that bad of a trade, if you ask me. Besides, drawing each turn also helps you inadvertently sculpt your hand so that when the time comes for Leyline to be destroyed, you have a solid plan to work with after the fact.
Shelve the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
I think the best way to bypass Leyline would be to ignore it, rather than destroy it. Something like the Hexmage/Depths/Urborg sideboard I saw someone run (I think it was aj) seems a lot better than the Reverent Silence/Nature's Claim/Forests board because while both provide heaps of antergy with the core of the deck, the Hexmage one allows you to cast a large portion of your maindeck, in addition to providing a new wincon. The Forests board also guarantees you'll be waiting a minimum of two turns sitting and doing nothing, even if you do beat the odds and draw both a Forest and removal in your opener.
If you do choose to run the Forests board though, I recommend green fetchlands over Land Grant, simply because it can't be countered. You also won't have to reveal your hand, which is only a minor issue, but still kind of sucks.
So what you're suggesting is alternating into an entirely new siding strategy based solely around a core of eleven to thirteen cards specifically, when the alternative is to protect forty-five to fifty that the entire basis of the deck revolves around? That seems like a relatively awful idea considering you have absolutely no way to produce those cards at a faster, more successful rate with little to no disruption. The alternative allows you to destroy a Leyline on the first turn and although it might 'set you back two turns,' it is still explicitly more redundant as you are now able to play the game instead of forfeiting.Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinTrudeau
Statistically speaking, I'm quite confident the odds of assembling those three cards chronologically (at a potential ratio of 4/4/4 - Hexmage/Depths/Urborg - are much more slim than requiring any combination of a ratio of 7/8 - Forests+Land Grant/Charm+Silence) favors the defensive approach. It's a non-conventional plan and it gives the deck a smooth set of outs that are much more reasonable to cast and open with (as you play more). It's not like you're playing anything else using this line; you're playing "Exile, Go" for the game and giving up two turns against a potentially weaker start from a multi-mulliganed opposing hand seems like a reasonable trade-off. In my experience, Land Grant has been fantastic.
If an opponent opens with Leyline and a Force (as you'd be on the forced play) to stop a Land Grant (or Hexmage, you pick), it doesn't matter what strategy you try: you're losing that game; you never had a chance to begin with. The format has slowed down drastically, which is a primary reason this deck has performed well.
First off, I'd just like to make it clear that I've never advocated running an anti-Leyline sideboard, and likely never will. I wasn't kidding when I said to shelve the deck if Leyline gets heavy play in your area.
The reasoning behind that new sideboard, if I'm not mistaken, is that boarding in lands would allow you to cast Bloodghast, Golgari Thug, Stinkweed Imp, Cabal Therapy, etc. in addition to the Hexmage/Depths combo with the eleven lands you now have (fifteen if you count Depths with Urborg), transforming it into a terrible aggro deck with a miser's combo finish. I agree that it's not very good (especially when you consider the fact that you have to weaken the maindeck by playing Dakmor Salvage), I just think that the philosophy behind it is marginally better than the enchantment destruction board, considering that plan will set you back a minimum of two turns before you even get to start dredging. Not to mention, the Hexmage plan bypasses all forms of grave hate, not only just Leyline and I guess Wheel of Sun and Moon.
Also, holding Land Grant, Reverent Silence, Reverent Silence would be mighty awkward against a hand of Leyline+a counterspell. I strongly recommend playing green fetches over Land Grant.
That's fine, but I'm simply iterating that you're going to be put on the play games two and or three, and your opponent realistically has to have Leyline, Blue card, Blue card. In that unlikely scenario, it doesn't matter what you play because that is far too powerful to overcome no matter what. But if you do decide to run Hexmage/Depths, you're going to need several turns to facilitate that and have it resolve. That is much harder to piece together than it looks.
If an opponent has a weak seven but a Leyline, they will probably keep it under the same reasoning you would keep a hand with a tool to fight the card: they know they can draw several turns out and be safe from anything you'll try to play. I'm being honest when I'm saying that if people are willing to realistically 'dumb down' their opening hands - and decks in general - by running a card like Leyline, I am going to punish them for relegating their entire survival on a single card. It completely warps their regular strategy, as a large percentage of players I would imagine would keep a terrible seven with a Leyline to simply invoke a handshake.
Running more land is perfectly fine instead of running Land Grants. I am running them because they allow me the flexibility of running a lower land count and keeping my threat density honest. I like that it replaces itself and gives you the option of allowing you to discard at eight cards if need be, which is actually kind of important. Also, no one is going to keep in hard-counters against a non-interactive deck (or at least they shouldn't). I wound up running into three decks last week running conditional and hard counters and each one of them I interviewed after the match to explain their sideboarding strategy to me. Each one said the same thing, that "counters just don't do anything against you and I have no idea what you run in your sideboard because you have no mana."
Keeping Misstep in is about the most important thing you can do. That should be it, though.
That is a good point about Leyline and its tendency to make opponents justify keeping poor hands; I guess that whole two turns business isn't as bad as I thought at first when you consider the opponent virtually mulligans to six, and in addition potentially keeps a bad hand that was banking on Leyline to give it time to develop. That Land Grant interaction with not playing the land initially and discarding is pretty sweet against Relic as well. Out of curiosity, what do you take out?
The Hexmage strategy only has 5 or so dead cards post-board, depending on how you count it. The aggro plan is actually fine against many decks, as they're forced to take out removal to fit in both graveyard hate and win-conditions (and removal is terrible against our main-deck, including Swords to Plowshares). This makes both the aggro plan and the combo plan much stronger than they appear at first glance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
In terms of speed/consistency/power, finding 2 particular cards (as lands are much more flexible) in a 60-card deck with 19 cycling cards and the ability to mulligan for a reasonable hand is much easier than finding a two-card combo without mulliganing at all (or at least very much), even when you can run a double playset of the cards. Typically, I produce the Hexmage kill by turn 5 (occasionally not at all, of course). Almost all decks are simply not prepared to deal with this after mulliganing for Leyline of the Void. On the plus side, my good hand isn't that much less likely than your good hand, while mine just wins and yours you don't do anything special, just get to play Magic (with a delay of several turns).
Against an opponent I suspect of having Leyline in his or her opening start, I have been toying with these substitutions (an important note: we do not know if an opponent is bringing in Leyline game two, so we need to play cautiously and not overextend the entire package into the main sixty):Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinTrudeau
I. Game Two Package with Suspected Opponent *Maybe* on Leyline
+4 Land Grant.
+4 Reverent Silence.
+3 Forest.
-4 Bloodghast.
-4 Nether Shadow.
-3 Dakmor Salvage.
II. Game Three Package with Opponent *Definitely* on Leyline
+4 Land Grant.
+4 Reverent Silence.
+4 Emerald Charm/Nature's Claim (if you choose so).
+3 Forest.
-4 Bloodghast.
-4 Nether Shadow.
-4 Street Wraith.
-3 Dakmor Salvage.
This has been turning the deck into a more streamlined Ichorid variant (most land-based configurations don't run Bloodghast or Nether Shadow). Cards like Shambling Shell and Street Wraith are still perfectly fine with exiling to Ichorids, and there are plenty more where that came from. Also, the Dredge count of the deck has not been tampered with, which is absolutely the most important thing when boarding a defensive package in. The removal of Street Wraith game three is certainly debatable, but I have found that he only really becomes better late in a match-set when playing against cards like Relic, Crypt, and Surgical Extraction. Leyline closes the door on it all, effectively turning him into a replacement for himself that gets exiled anyway. He does help you find an answer a little faster in Cycling, so I'm kind of on the fence about him. My goal game three is to beat down with tokens and Ichorids and Dread Returning the old fashioned way.
Nether Shadows and Bloodghasts give the deck a lot of redundancy, but the fact is the heart and soul of the deck (Bridge from Below, Ichorid, Narcomoeba, Dredgers, Dread Returns, targets, etc.) still remain 100% intact. The trick here is to not overhaul your entire deck game two, but rather play with a slight level of protection to deal with at least the threat of a suspected incoming Leyline. Obviously, if we see a Leyline game two, we know we have to have more tools to eliminate that threat game three. Silence can destroy more than one Leyline if the situation calls for it, but the game three strategy uses more targeted removal to deal explicitly and specifically with the threat individually.
It could be enough game two for the more cautious strategy to work, but at least here you're given the option of running four more protective elements to deal with the card. Otherwise, you should be good. I've even been considering knocking the Charm count down to three, but so far I've actually been using it over Silences when multiples arise (not too often game three).
Or you could just bypass the game two boarding strategy all together and just wait to see if Leyline actually does hit the table. Of course, in doing so, you'll lose. This at least gives you the option to fight it game two without necessarily having to pack it in and grants you the ability to board into eleven (11) cards instead of fifteen (15). I've even been exploring cutting down to six (6) defensive cards coming in instead of eight (8). This could open some slots up.
vs Hive mind combo heavy meta could we SB Chronotog and other stuff that lets you skip your turn?
Morning (Swedish-time), Sourcers.
Just a little lurker here with a few thoughts and questions
around what has been talked about in here.
@ajfirecracker:
Regarding the HexDepths-combo out of the board, for starters, I'm assuming this is for the Bauble-filled list? It would never work without a million cyclers. I'm just concerned about your thoughts around the meta and sideboarding. You say removal is terrible against our maindeck, but in a meta filled with NO RUG and StoneBlade removal will stay maindeck and even be boarded in (Wraths and Paths for StoneBlade). NO RUG will keep the bolts in to be able to get rid of our bridges.
This makes the 20/20 no shroud plan ridicilously easy to just... end.
It also turns their Wastelands on.
@Everyone complaining about combo:
What are you actually talking about? The fast combos that are actually being played are, what... Cephalid, Hypergenesis, Hive Mind(/Show and Tell), Reanimator & maybe a Pattern of Rebirth here and there. Not counting NO RUG, here.
All these decks can easily be raced with the help of a few well placed Therapies (Iona
doesn't hurt, either, which is why I'm wondering why people in here have stopped maining her).
@XSivPSI:
Your next upkeep will just be the turn you skip into, won't work.
@Anti Leyline Plans:
I really don't see the huge need for this. The deck is still pretty much under the radar and not at all played enough for us to be superscared about leylines. Also, not many of the actual DtB's are running black nor Leylines, and you should have no problem grinding through relics/crypts.
I do agree that one might be needed _in the future_, though, and will happily follow your sideboard-ideas.
And at last, just a quick question. What is up with everyone saying Gigapede helps us fight through the hate? What have I missed, here? I like Gigapede, he's 3 extra dredgers for me (since they sometimes get stuck on my hand, and I get a bad dredge), but he's never ever helped me through hate. He's not Phantasmagorian. What am I missing?
(So sorry for an incoherent post, I just woke up.)
I went to a tournament this weekend with manaless. I'm a fan of Ichorid, but I've always played the mana version. This was the very first time I tried this build. Finished 3-2. Losses were White stax (I know, nobody plays this...) & BR Goblins. The stax list went T1 Trini, T2 Ghostly Prison = GG. Second game he just puked a Baneslayer out T3, equiped it with SoFI & SoFF & attacked on T4. I dredged like crazy, but couldn't find a dread return or a cabal. Against the Goblins: he raced me G1, I raced him G2 & he dropped leyline G3. Leyline = GG.
I won against UW control 2-0, elves 2-0 & maverick 2-0.
Overall I was very happy with the stability and nuttyness of the deck. The only thing I definitly want to change is the MU against LoTV & Propaganda-effects. Right now I'm thinking about an almost complete SB dedicated to beating enchantments. Something like:
4 Fetch
4 Dryad arbor
4 Reverent Silence
3 DR targets
Any Thoughts?
Woodfall Primus..?Quote:
Originally Posted by Darklingske
It also forces you to nuke your own Bridges; not exactly ideal in a Dredge deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by berry