[Deck] U/R Delver

hi guys, i play this deck, but i m very confused about few cards

i never play this deck in tournament,
but someone that have good results(win or top8)can write decklist?

because i see every guy play different list,
i d like understand what is the more power decklist

with or without 2 daze?
with or without force of will?

i can t decide

Welcome to The Source. Please be advised that we require posters to use proper capitalization and punctuation when posting on these boards. Please make an effort to use them in the future. Thanks. -zilla

You probably should have mulled if you had more than one dual in your opener. Seriously the best play is island - delver - go. ponder and brainstorm away the majority of your lands in favor of business cards. That said if I'm not holding two delvers or one with a counter I tend to hold them until I'm able to make sure they stick. You really really don't want your opponent to answer it, ever.

So, I finally got some tounament experience with the deck toay, but I dropped, mostly because I played like shit.

Anyways some insight (using 4eaks list, different SB though):

The Manabase I would advise is:
3 Volcanic
2 Mountain
1 Island
12 Fetch

2 Island were too much (I NEVER wanted two) but 2 Volcanic were too little, in the 4 rounds I wanted the 3rd at least 3 times.

If you run an aggresive version like this, Spell Snare is completely out of place. I'll drop at least 2, but more likely all of them. The only Goyfs you see are from GSZ (and SS won't get those anyways) and beating Mystic is actually a cakewalk even if he resolves.

I'm not sure what I'll replace the SSs with. I might try Snappy, you get to 3 mana surprisingly often and you won't always have a BS to trade them for something usefull.

First shot at a tourny report so stick with me if it's terrible.

25ish players 5 rounds of swiss cut to a top 8
Went 2-2 drop (Played in round 4 just for more play time on the cards)

Decklist:


Land:
4 arid mesa
4 scalding tarn
4 misty rainforest
2 volcanic island
2 mountian
2 island


Spells:
4 daze
4 spell snare
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 lightning bolt
4 chain lightning
2 price of progress
2 vapor snag

Dudes:
4 delver of secrets
4 goblin guide
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 grim lavamancer


SB:
4 Force of Will
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Smash to Smithereens
3 echoing truth
1 grim lavamancer
1 price of progress

Round 1 vs Team Italia 2-0
Game 1: Turn 1 delver turn 2 guide blind flip delver and beats in short order. Price of progress finishes.

Game 2: I board in POP and 3 smash take out 4 daze. turn 1 guide and go brainstorm ponder fetch crazy win of price of progress again.

Round 2 vs GW Maverick 0-2
Game 1: Lavamancer 1 and 2 get plowed. turn 4 green sun zenith for thrun ownes me.

Game 2: I board in 4 force of will 1 grim lavamancer take out 4 spellsnare and 1 daze.
Turn 1 I land delver. He goes bird. Turn 2 his choke meets my force removing force. turn 3 sword of fire and ice. fetching dryad arbor. arbor beats face as the shock from sword keeps my board clean.

Round 3 vs belcher 0-2

Game 1: I get guide with all kinds of gas. He plays turn 2 lotus petal, I daze he spirit guides to pay. Rituals go crazy ending with belcher for 24 off lions eye diamond.

Game 2: I board in 4 force of will and 3 echoing truth Board out 2 vapor snag, 4 spell snare, 1 grim lavamancer. I mull to 5 looking for force and keep with 2 daze 2 fetches and a brain storm. turn 3 he belches for 30+ after my double daze does nothing vs both a red and green spirit guide trying to stop his petal.

Round 4 vs Thopters 2-0
Game 1: Turn 1 delver, turn 2 guide delver (no flip). Turn 3 both flip. Very soon after price does the final 2 damage off his 1 academy ruins.

Game 2: I board in 1 grim lavamancer and 3 smash board out 2 price of progress, 2 vapor snag. Early beats get the job done again finishing with end of his turn bolt into snapcaster bolt on my turn.

What I took away from this tourny.

1) Force of Will must be main deck. (at least 3)
2) 8 1 mana deck manipulation spells make this deck so smooth.
3) This deck is so much fun to play and very powerful (if you take your time. There some plays you can make are just insane)
4) Thrun and KotR should be banned!
5) Price of Progress wins games. (I do feel 2 is the right number for game 1 at least)
Changes I would make to my list:

+3 Force of will

-2 Vapor Snag
-1 Daze (some will say this should be ponder but to be honest those spells dug my way into wins a turn sooner or smoothed any draws I had all day)

So there it is my first terrible tourny report. No need to pull punches.

Have at it!

Nice job. Idk if I'd board in FoW against Maverick, but you did need it for Choke. I think the difference in 7-8 cantrips is very slight, so the 4th Ponder makes for an easy cut. I don't like your juxtaposition between 4 Ponder and 4 Spell Snare, for instance. The changes from my list to yours are very slight once you add Force. Belcher is a matchup radically improved by FoW, as you well saw. Storm/Reanimator is more why I play it MD.

-1 Spell Snare
-1 Ponder
-1 Daze

+1 Price of Progress
+2 Fireblast

Seems fine, nice writeup. I'd hoped to see a win vs. Maverick, but what can you do. Also, 3 Volcanics could very well be correct, but that's a very big difference from only 2, increasing your chance to naturally draw it by 50%. I like the -1 Island -1 Volcanic + 2 Fetchland idea, because will you ever want more than 6! lands in play? Fetches are always great with Lavamancer in the picture as well. 2 Islands was probably a mistake as well, nice catch. When do you want more than 2? I suppose Snapcaster + X is the only instance, but Volcanics make everything easy regardless. I'm going to stick with 3x Price of Progress, because I believe it to be gold in my area. Fireblast as well, did you ever find you were holding cards that would've ended the game as Fireblast, or even made it easier to close if it was? The biggest issue I've found with the deck is those last few points of damage, and 4dmg for 0cc is pretty sick sometimes. Daze doesn't do anything sometimes lategame, and Ponder is just filler. If you think about it that way, with Fireblast also being "free" like Daze, and how we're such a damage oriented deck, how can you not make room for it maindeck? With Snare/Daze/AND Ponder at 4x over the free finisher, how do you justify that? I suppose it's safer, but you lose power, imo. Just a question! :P

Also, SB needs MOAR SUBMERGE!!

2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Smash to Smithereens
4 Submerge
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Sulfuric Vortex

This is the board I'm currently looking at. Opinions?

I brought in the Forces against Maverick to hit GSZ and KotR. Him casting choke first was a happy accident.

From what I saw today the third Volc island in place of the second island would be an improvement to an already great mana base. I would have no trouble make that change for sure. I did see a few decks showing up with maze of Ith today and was glad I didn't see one of them wastelandless.

Every game I won was a blowout. In fact the only damage I took in those 4 wins was off of fetch lands.

For fireblast I kept my lands in play at no more then 3 all day long. (got double wasted one game and just shuffled away dazes or snares instead of the lands.) Maybe it's how I'm playing the deck holding the lands till I draw into my brainstorms to keep my hand full of gas all the time. With how I was playing it there was never a time where I had 2 mountains i could sac and still cast things i needed.

Am I misplaying by holding back land 4 and 5? When/if i get land 6 (3 in play 3 in hand) is when i'll play the 4th. Unless I am gonna flashback POP for the win.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by millerd33

I brought in the Forces against Maverick to hit GSZ and KotR. Him casting choke first was a happy accident.

---

Okay, but then you're still going down a card to stop a single card. Situationally, this can be worth it, but not overall.

Quote:

---

For fireblast I kept my lands in play at no more then 3 all day long. (got double wasted one game and just shuffled away dazes or snares instead of the lands.) Maybe it's how I'm playing the deck holding the lands till I draw into my brainstorms to keep my hand full of gas all the time. With how I was playing it there was never a time where I had 2 mountains i could sac and still cast things i needed.

---

Well you're thinking of misplaying the card. It's used as the last card you're going to play in the sequence of the game. Casting it before that is almost always incorrect, so don't even think about that. Were there ever points where that 4 points of damage would've been better than the Daze or Snare you held? Did you feel a need for that reach?, or did you find the support of these cards early-mid game more valuable?

Quote:

---

Am I misplaying by holding back land 4 and 5? When/if i get land 6 (3 in play 3 in hand) is when i'll play the 4th. Unless I am gonna flashback POP for the win.

---

No. Every land in play is an action spell lost. Shuffling lands away with Brainstorm is pro, GJ.

What would you have brought in against Maverick or changed in the board to give better matchups against that type of deck?

I am gonna mimic your list and do some testing to see if the fireblasts do turn up the clock. It is possible knowing I have blast in hand I play the game out different knowing when I have him at 7 he is not 3 spells away from death.

I have picked up a lot of very good info and play tips from these forums from my lurking and now posting. Keep up the good work guys I can not tell you how much more prepared for the tourny I was just by reading the insight of players on these boards.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by paK0

The Manabase I would advise is:
3 Volcanic
2 Mountain
1 Island
12 Fetch

2 Island were too much (I NEVER wanted two) but 2 Volcanic were too little, in the 4 rounds I wanted the 3rd at least 3 times.

---

I think I agree on all counts. At least in the burn heavy build, I've never liked a second basic Island. I never want more than one, and getting 2 basic Islands in an opening grip can force a mull that would oterhwise have been totally unnecessary.

I also think that 4 Volcs is probably more than necessary, and 2 is too few. 3 is probably the perfect number.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by paK0

If you run an aggresive version like this, Spell Snare is completely out of place. I'll drop at least 2, but more likely all of them. The only Goyfs you see are from GSZ (and SS won't get those anyways) and beating Mystic is actually a cakewalk even if he resolves.

---

Disagree with this. Being able to hit Mystic can be very important. Sure you can burn him before he can cheat equipment into play, but once he hits the table, he's largely done his damage by fetching a Sword or a Jitte for your opponent to hardcast the following turn. The fact that it can also stop Jitte itself makes it a very important card. Hitting the occasional Goyf is nice as well. I don't think Snare is a 4-of in the aggressive build, but a 2 or 3 of has worked very well for me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by millerd33

Am I misplaying by holding back land 4 and 5? When/if i get land 6 (3 in play 3 in hand) is when i'll play the 4th. Unless I am gonna flashback POP for the win.

---

No, this is right on the money. Not only can you turn them into business spells with Brainstorm, but holding excess lands also lets you bluff countermagic, forces your opponent to play around non-existent Dazes, etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by millerd33

I brought in the Forces against Maverick to hit GSZ and KotR. Him casting choke first was a happy accident.

---

The Maverick matchup is usually a war of attrition. Making 1 for 2 trades in their favor (with Force) is likely a losing propositon. You need pretty much every card you can get to seal the deal against them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by millerd33

What would you have brought in against Maverick or changed in the board to give better matchups against that type of deck?

---

Submerge. Use it in on a Knight or Goyf in response to either a Fetchland or to KotR's activated ability. The creature gets put on top of the library and then shuffled away. 1 for 1 trade, no mana on your part. It makes a huge difference in this matchup.

You boarded wrong against belcher. Spellsnare is insanely clutch in this matchup, and I say that not as a UR delver pilot but as a belcher pilot. If they play ritual heavy builds you can hit Manamorphose, Pyretic Ritual, Desperate Ritual, and Burning wish. In not ritual heavy take pyretic and maybe manamorphose off the list. Not trying to put you down but stopping any of those cards can be crucial, and from what your report seemed to say they didnt go off turn one. Anywho, more on topic of the manabase, in more of the burn heavy hyper aggressive builds, you want more red, so the one island does make sense, however, I also believe that four volcanics would be the best way to set your main deck. Not fetching them but drawing into them naturally, while not wanting to see more than 2 in a game, you want to see 2 and unless you actively fetch for them or dig for them too many should be a non-issue.

What are the bad matchups for this deck? Thinking about picking this deck up

Usually I open with fetch for VI since my opponents has to play around daze and even if I cast delver or ponder, I like VI since there are some red spells in my hand for sure.
My build also involves only 2 VI atm, but this is due budget issues and I've seen myself in trouble after a wasteland when i just needed one land to get things done and I drew a blue fetch, while 2 VI in my grave and just lost because of this. So 3 or more VI is the way to go.
I also would like to know is a hydroblast in the sideboard could be a good call. Also Flusterstorm is pretty good vs. many matchups. But my question is what to board out, since the deck is already pretty tight.
I feel like I could play more daze (currently running 2) but here's the same question: what to take out?
About maverick: I feel like after round 2 I only have like 3-4 cards in hand while they usually have 6. But I'm far beyond gaming in this since they are already at 12-14 life and barely have a creature, while I have a huge board position. In those cases it is hard to trade 1:1 all the time but usually you just need to negate their lifegain: Jitte (SFM), Batterscull (SFM) and Ooze (GSZ). So Spell Snare and Daze are MVP. (I only tested vs. the GWr-version, yet)

I've had a lot of trouble winning against maverick. They have answers for everything. It really comes down to a coinflip, honestly. The most irritating matchup though, has to be elves combo. I really, really hate playing against combo decks. There are so many times I've wished I'd had a fire/ice in hand instead of a bolt. Sometimes they just go off and all you can do is sit there watching them turn shit sideways and cast summoners pacts and this and that and jesus christ just drop emrakul already goddamnit, I don't have all day.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wutangkillabeezonaswarm

I've had a lot of trouble winning against maverick. They have answers for everything. It really comes down to a coinflip, honestly. The most irritating matchup though, has to be elves combo. I really, really hate playing against combo decks. There are so many times I've wished I'd had a fire/ice in hand instead of a bolt. Sometimes they just go off and all you can do is sit there watching them turn shit sideways and cast summoners pacts and this and that and jesus christ just drop emrakul already goddamnit, I don't have all day.

---

^ That sentiment is why I stopped playing elves combo. I was actually pretty fucking good at it, there's a lot to the deck, but at the end of the day it felt awful watching the person across the table just sit there while I did my thing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wutangkillabeezonaswarm

The most irritating matchup though, has to be elves combo.

---

I don't see Elves combo here at all, but it seems like you have the available SB tools you need to turn that into a positive matchup if you want to. Flamebreak my be too slow, but Pyroclasm or even Pyrokinesis should be pretty effective.

I tend to run into some sort of elf combo variant often enough. I think it's less of a question of which board sweeper to run and more a question of how do I burn them down faster. I checked our lord and saviour Shrout's latest list variation and saw pyrostatic pillar being played in the SB in addition to sulfuric vortex. I've actually lost a few games to pyrostatic pillar so I can vouch for how effective it can be in certain matchups. Coupled with sulfuric vortex would be hilarious.

hey all, I was hoping to get some feedback on my list. I decided to go for Force MD after much mulling and reading and playing. I feel like being able to counter a GSZ or stand a chance at countering a Show and Tell. ( tap ancient tomb and island for SnT, daze?, Forced..) With Force of Will MD you stand a chance against unfair or gamebreaking spells from resolving. The burn heavier version of this deck definitely has its merits, but I like this build more; you got 3-4 more SB slots haha

x3 Force of Will
x3 Spell Snare
x4 Daze
x4 Brainstorm
x2 Ponder
x4 Chain Lightning
x4 Lightning Bolt
x3 Price of Progress
x2 Fireblast

x4 Goblin Guide
x4 Delver of Secrets
x3 Snapcaster Mage
x2 Grim Lavamancer

x4 Volcanic Island
x4 Scalding Tarn
x1 Misty Rainforest
x2 Wooded Foothills
x4 Polluted Delta
x2 Mountain
x1 Island

sb

x3 Smash to Smithereens
x3 Submerge
x2 Spell Pierce
x1 Force of Will
x2 Pyroblast
x1 Red Elemental Blast
x1 Price of Progress
x2 Chaos Warp


For the manabase I've been playing x4 duals, and I'm aware of the argument against that. I like the flexibility early on and it makes fireblasts easier without having to play more mountains. Wasteland definitely sucks but with x11 fetches you can almost always grab a basic. I am concerned that playing so few lands (18!!) even with Ponders and x4 Brainstorm can be dangerous playing against deck with x4 wasteland, when you play x4 duals.. So that's something I'm still toying with x3 might be the answer but I'm not sold on it yet.

I think the sb is getting there, the chaos warps are new... I used to play ancient grudges (with a trop MD). I wanted to play more Grim Lavamancers and Blasts in the SB, I might just swap those out for the Chaos Warps.

I don't think anyone is espousing a decklist without force of will. That card will never be on the chopping block. The most you can do is cut it down to 3 and that's a metagame call. Chaos warp is interesting tech. Change out a batterskull for a bird of paradise/some other 1-2 toughness dork that will get fried with a bolt in a second or two. Why 4 daze maindeck? I ran 3 for a little bit and had a few instances it cost me a game because it wasn't a Fow/spell snare. Not exaggerating. I'd run 2, max. It's a great card, but it's got limits. I never want to draw daze. Either beginning with it in my opener or finding it with a brainstorm. I think if you cut down a few staples of this deck from your main and sb(singleton pop? you can snapcast it ftw, no need to run more than 3 maindeck and call it a day)you'll see some good results. Good list so far. People here who have been arguing against running 4 volcanic islands must be forgetting about fireblast I guess.

This deck is like the counter-burn of old times. People used to play stuff like Hammer of Bogardan for grindy longer games as a recursive source of damage. Punishing fire is like a faster Hammer, deals good with little critters everyone plays nowadays. Have any of you guys tried it in UR Delver?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wutangkillabeezonaswarm

People here who have been arguing against running 4 volcanic islands must be forgetting about fireblast I guess.

---

Because you can't sac basic Mountains to Fireblast, amirite? Against decks packing Wasteland, you're often more likely to be able to keep 2 Mountains on the table if they're basic, which means the more ways to find basics (read: fetchlands), the more consistently you have Mountains for Fireblast.

I mean, I guess if you're intending to cast multiple Fireblasts in a game, (I personally never do) then more Mountains would be required, but I'd argue you should simply drop some fetches for more basic Mountains at that point.