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I would not keep "Land, Dredger, Faithless Looting, 4 cards that only are useful in your graveyard."
I might keep "LED, Dredger, Faithless Looting, 4 cards that are only useful in your graveyard."
I wouldn't really keep the first hand even if I had a Tireless Tribe instead of Faithless Looting, but I think it's a better keep.
I probably wouldn't keep the first one, regardless of whether or not Tireless Tribe or Faithless Looting is in the designated slot; a lot also depends on the match-up I'm against.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anusien
Regards,
jares
On a side note, who is going to attend BoM next month? Maybe it would be nice to do sth like a meet-up. I have the feeling that only the usual suspects are there though:/
Depending on the match up and if I am on the play or draw would determine if I keep this hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anusien
For instance, being on the draw against a slower controlish deck makes this hand sound great.
So after failing REALLY hard at the BoM trial and playing like shit the entire time (also getting a bit tilted after R1G1 deck registration error-> only 3 looting, I had to play 1 Island main) but still having fun with the list(GP Flayer list -1 Citadel +1 Cabal Therapy)
I tested the shit out of the list the days after.
Here's what I came up with so far( I opted for a kind of hybrid between quadlaser and flayer)
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3-4 Cephalid Coliseum
1-0 Tarnished Citadel
3 Putrid Imp
3 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
1 Schinder der Hassgebundenen
3 Dread Return
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave- Troll
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
So while I am quite satisfied on the Maindeck, I struggle with my Sideboard.
So far it's.
4 Nature's Claim
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Memory's Journey
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
2 Tarnished Citadel
1 Elesh Norn, Great Genocide
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
The main problem I have is now, that I have Elesh, I don't really need the Leylines anymore. Firestorms are better against almost every deck, and also do quite the damage in the mirror. But around here we also got some Reanimator players left and really a lot of Dredge players.
What do you guys think?
Ps: also, before there are questions about it: No, I won't play Chain of Vapor in favour of Nature's Claim, you don't need more then 1 Grudge, 1 Journey, and 4 Cabal Therepy maindeck is the only sane thing to do, EXSPECIALLY if you only wanna see 3 each game.
Edit: Also, I almost completed making my deck all german! yay me!
I have a few inquiries/suggestions regarding your list:Quote:
Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus
- Maybe Purify the Grave over Memory's Journey?
- Maybe Faerie Macabre over Leyline of the Void to favor the Reanimator match-up a bit (given that you're already packing Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite)?
- May I ask about why you strongly prefer Nature's Claim over Chain of Vapor even though you have a lot of Reanimators going around? Maybe a 2-2 split might be a good balance?
- Will Ray of Revelation and Iona, Shield of Emeria be absolutely necessary?
Kind Regards,
jares
<3 one Ray. Remember, it gives you inevitability and takes pressure off your mulligans if you can dredge into it.
-Purify or Journey doesn't really make a difference imo. You generally don't want to cast more than 1 since you are losing anyways if you have to and both can get countered. Journey's effect is way better than Coffin Purge/ Purify and the cmc seldom is an issue because most people leave out snares after boarding. I chose Journey because it is nice to EOT shuffle in 3 MoebasQuote:
Originally Posted by jares
- I thought about Macabre, too. It would open a slot for the 15th land in my board, which is nice, but I don't think the effect is good enough. You can't tutor for it, you have to have it in your hand and that makes it bad for the Reanimator Matchup imo. They still pack Thoughtseize and Show and Tell, and Macabres in the hand make LED a lot worse. And you need that LED in the Reanimator Matchup imo. LotV is flat put better in this matchup(as in any other matchup where I bring in GY hate) I don't understand your point with Elesh, though, Legend ruling the opponent's Elesh can't be the plan.
- Chain of Vapor is the most overrated card in Dredge EVER. It doesn't solve anything except a Leyline, is still weak to countermagic and the tricks you can pull of with it to save Ichorids/Bridges are not worthwhile imo. I like my problematic permanents to be destroyed, not just bounced. In a heavy Reanimator meta maybe. Just maybe.Otherwise, having to go off and kill right away before the card you bounced comes back down is not the way I wanna play, exspecially with the hate as it is.
-Ray and Iona. To be fair, Iona is the spot I have been cutting back and forth in favor of land numer 15. Still, it is nice that the card autowins against Elves, High Tide and Burn. That is about all the card autowins against, though, so I am not quite sure if it is worthwhile.
As to Ray, it is an out to enchantments you don't have to draw, and since we are playing Legacy, I would never leave the house without it. I'd rather cut the last Grudge. I just hate losing to moat.
Edit: BTW, boarding with the Flayerlists is a bitch.
This isn't too important. I was just thinking that switching from Leyline of the Void to Faerie Macabre lessens the effectiveness of your hate against the mirror, and Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite is there to bridge the gap.Quote:
Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus
Noted on all other points. I'm a bit surprised that I've never felt the need to run Ray of Revelation, though that might just be a meta thing (Ancient Grudge is much more relevant in my meta amidst the various artifacts that are running around in both the main deck and sideboard).
Cheers,
jares
There are relevant artifacts?Oo
Yes, a few.Quote:
Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus
Regards,
jares
I don't know any aside from Batterskull.Quote:
Originally Posted by jares
Even if my meta was full of stoneblade packing relics, I think 2 or 3 maximum Grudges is more than enough to deal with anything.Nature's Claim does the job quite good tho.
Short report for my local tourney today ( 20 player):
R1: UB Snapcaster Control
G1. I'm on the play and lead with City, LED, Study, resp crack LED, Loothing, dumping a good chunk of my deck in the yard and then proceed to steamroll him with Therapy.
Side: ( I put him on Esper Blade, as I saw Snapcaster, Fetchlands, Brainstorm and Inquisition in his hand) -1 Thug, -1 Study +2 Coffin Purge
G2: He opens with a Leyline, doh! At least I was able to take a look at his deck now and there it turned out that he wasn't on Esper Blade but on a UB Snapcaster homebrew.
Side: +4 Natures Claim +1 Tarnish Citadell +1 Study -4 LED, -1 Looting, -1 Breakthrough
G3: We both have to mulligan down to 5 cards and due to him missing his Leyline in those 5 cards I'm once again able to stemroll him with a turn 2 Breakthrough.
R2: Canadian Thresh
G1: I start with a City, LED ( he forces) and Study, dumping Troll and Imp in my yard. On my 2nd turn I'm able to resolve a Looting and then proceed to slowly kill him via Ichorids and zombie token.
Side: +2 Coffin Purge, -1 Study -1 Thug
G2: He leads with a Fetchland, while I start by discarding a Troll. He then goes for a turn 2 Goyf, while I go for City, LED, Breakthrough ( force), go. He attacks once and drops a Delver. On my 3rd turn I play my 2nd Land and go for Looting, crack LED, more Loothing into enough buisness to kill him.
R3: Pox
G1: He does nothing relevant ( well his deck doesn'T have any relevant spell G1 against us :S) and dies on turn 3.
Side: ( I got to peek at his sideboard during round 1, so I knew that he was playing 3 Cages and 2 Crypts)
-4 LED , 1 Thug, -1 Looting +2 Grudge, +2 Chewer +1 Claim +1 Citadell
G2: He starts with an Inquisition, taking away my Looting, while I lead with a Coliseum and a Study, dumping Imp and Ichorid. He then goes for another Inquisiotn, taking my Breakthrough, wastes my Coliseum and then he drops a Crypt. I dredge once, find another Imp, a Bridge and a Thug, sweet. On his turn he simply goes for land, go. In my upkeep I return an Ichorid, he ponders for a second but then he let it resolve. I go for my normal draw ( keeping the Imp as fooder for the Ichorid, in order to force him to crack his Crypt), swing for 3 and then he crpyts me in response on my Bridge trigger. On his turn he plays a Lilliana, ponders for a bit and then passes the turn without using her. I draw a Coliseum, look at the Putrid Imp in my hand and then at the Urborg on my opponents side, smile and slam the PImp on the table, gotta love my basic Swamp. On his turn he goes for a Smallpox, while I discard and Imp and Bridge, forcing him do use Lillianas 2nd ability in order to blow up the token.
The rest of the game was very onesided, as I found all the good stuff and he kept on drawing useless shit ( but then again thats Pox for you).
R4: Combo Elves
G1: He leads with a Bichelor Ranger and I lead with a City, LED, 2x Looting, 2 Therapies ( taking away his Glimse and his Ooze) and a bunch of zombies...
Side:
-4 LED +1 Citadell +3 Firestorm
G2: On his 2nd turn I blow up his entire board with Firestorm, however I fail to find an Ichorid or a Moeba in my next 4 turns while was able to reestablish his board via Symbiot and 2 Elvish Visionary.
Side: +4 LED -1 Citadell -3 Firestorm
G3: I mulligan down to 4, fail to find a dredger with my Looting and die on turn 2.
CoV is not useless in the scenario you're describing, as its mere presence caused an opponent to misplay by reanimating an irrelevant 7/11 (it's marginally effective in tandem with two Extirpate effects, but what isn't?) instead of a card Dredge can't actually beat if it sticks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital Devil
I would definitely play LED in the metagame you're describing.
A small report from the local event here at Curio Cavern in Northern Virginia; wound up cleaning house with twenty-three players (23) going a perfect 4-0.
Round One versus James (w/ B/w Tokens).
Game One: James mulligans down to six cards, while I keep my starting seven. He plays a fetch and passes. I draw naturally into an LED, play City of Brass into Faithless Looting, hold priority cracking LED and proceed to go ballistic. He scoops after seeing two Narcomoeba's, Therapies, four Bridges, and two Ichorids.
Game Two: James takes the play again and mulligans down to six again. I keep my hand. James plays a fetch and passes. I drop two LED's, a Cephalid Coliseum, and Breakthrough with a Troll and Imp in the graveyard with RRR floating - with the other LED chilling for the kill-shot. That was all she wrote.
[2-0-0] 1-0.
Round Two versus Tim (w/ Affinity).
Game One: Tim is a pretty cool guy and wins the roll. He starts off relatively slow, dropping a Pest and Memnite. I keep a loose hand with LED, lands and some dredgers. I hope to draw into a draw spell, but such was not the case. I discard Troll and hope to hit some business. I don't really, and by the time Tim shows lethal on board I have to take a natural draw and hope to nail any draw spell in my deck (counting Coliseum). No dice, and it's on to the second game.
Game Two: I actually decide I don't even care to bring in Firestorms here. I just wanted to see if it really mattered in the end, which it wound up not. I am really more and more not wanting to board out LED's, so I keep them in. I proceed to completely blow Tim out on my turn two by accruing eighteen Zombies, in addition to keeping mana up for a flashed back Ancient Grudge on his Plating. That sealed the deal.
Game Three: Exactly the same. Tim goes with a risky keep on a mull to six of Mox Opal and Ornithopter, precariously with no lands. I proceed to do the same thing I did in game two on my turn three this time, but not before Tim put up a valiant effort plucking some land and getting business going.
One thing to note, him forgetting Ravager being good against Bridge from Below assisted in the game three win, too. That wouldn't have been entirely relevant as I had Grudge early anyhow.
[4-1-0] 2-0.
Round Three versus Jeff (w/ Team America Homebrew).
Game One: Jeff is on the play and drops a Ponder. I play a land and cast Careful Study, binning two trolls. Jeff takes his turn and drops Bob. I go to my turn, dredge for six, and proceed to cast Breakthrough at x=0. I blow the game open, crucify his hand, and as I'm going off Jeff surveys my graveyard and scoops.
Game Two: I kind of worked around this match keeping my LED's in, and just brought in Grudges for whatever other hate he might have aside from Surgical - which I know he's on as I've seen his board in action before in addition to running Cunning Wishes to get them in a pinch. At any rate, I put myself in a position where I have two Bridges in the graveyard, a Dread Return, an Iona, two Zombies and a Narcomoeba in play. I know Jeff has been bricking on lands with his Bob in play, as I had tokens made by flashing back a Therapy - sacrificing Thug getting tokens and putting Narcomoeba back on top of my deck.
I keep a tally of his hand, which is now down to a mystery card. I go for Dread Return on Iona. He drew the Surgical for turn, and it saved him not only the game but turned the tide in his favor as he stabilized and won the game on the back of Delver(s) and massive card advantage from an unanswered Bob.
Game Three: I say fuck it and I'm all in here. Jeff mulligans to six, and I keep a disgusting hand of Coliseum, City, Study, Troll, Therapy, Imp, Looting. I draw an LED for turn and Jeff has nothing. I play it safe and hard-cast Therapy, naming "Surgical Extraction." It hits and I bin one (seeing nothing else relevant) and you can guess what happened from there with a hand like that.
[6-2-0] 3-0.
Round Four versus Dan Signorini [nitewolf] (w/ Modified EsperBlade).
Game One: Dan and I are currently the only unbeaten players and decide to play it out for the prize. We roll it up and Dan wins and elects to play first - no mulligans here. He leads off with a land and Ponder. I cast Faithless Looting, drawing Lion's Eye Diamond and binning some dredgers. Dan has the Force for a Breakthrough that followed, but the Looting resolved. After a few Ichorids were sent farming and Dan stuck a Stoneforge, I go crazy with a Breakthrough and win the game shortly thereafter on the back of multiple tokens just overwhelming him.
Game Two: This one was rather anti-climactic, as I know Dan's sideboard is heavily equipped and prepared to handle Dredge. Dan decides to play, and keeps his hand. He plays a land and passes. I drop a City of Brass and play a Putrid Imp, which eats a Force of Will. Dan Wastes my City, and passes. I drop a Cephalid Coliseum and play Careful Study with LED. It resolves, and I bin some dredgers and make some mana. It all resolves, and Dan has no responses. I dredge away and wind up hitting a Looting and some gas. I proceed to nuke his hand and hit Engineered Explosives, leaving him with nothing but lands. I then Dread Return a 14/14 Troll with a Zombie and Narcomoeba by its side - in addition to three Ichorids in the graveyard.
It proved to be too much as Dan bricked on his draw and I took the match home.
[8-2-0] 4-0.
The only changes I made to my main list was experimenting running a third Ichorid over the Darkblast main. It wound up being really decent and gave me fuel when I needed it. Darkblast is still good in a Maverick-infested environment, which this is not. I kept the LED's in for just about every match, as I just keep wanting it more and more all the time. Unless my opponent is on Leyline, I am generally keeping them in.
Aside from that, Coffin Purge has been kind of meh, but I feel like my list is solid enough and I'm comfortable enough with it where the lack of its use has been relatively moot up until this point - surprisingly the same with Firestorm. Firestorm is a card you use against Aggro, but you crush that anyhow so I'm really on the fence about it. LED is just so fast against the decks where it would be necessary that one has to wonder if the utility is worth stunting your speed.
At any rate, good showing.
Nature's Claim has also always done its job well for me, which is why I'm also rarely happy about my Ancient Grudges - I would probably just run [1x] too, much like how you run just [1x] Ray of Revelation.Quote:
Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus
Cheers,
jares
1 is surely enough, I run the same amount.
I will probably not cut leylines,Firestorm lacks synergy with LED which I feel I need g2 against Maverick
I have been considering running a singleton Coffin Purge in my sideboard after observing the sideboards that have been going around, simply so that I could add to the cards that will allow my graveyard to give me access to my sideboard during the game. I'm still unconvinced of whether or not I really want it at this point, but I continue to observe other people's experiences so that these could help me with mine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
I have also been playing around with Offalsnout, and have found that it works best against the mirror, as outlined below:
- It's able to remove your opponents Bridges at instant speed.
- It's able to trigger your own bridges at instant speed.
- It removes a targeted card in a graveyard, which seems to work best in response to Dread Return.
- Other stuff:
- It's able to feed Ichorid
- It's inferior to Faerie Macabre because it removes one less card, and can be countered.
- It's inferior to Coffin Purge because you can't cast it from the graveyard.
Just adding some notes that might be useful.
Cheers,
jares
Well done with 4-0!Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
Did you have to take a natural draw because you had no dredgers in your graveyard or did you try to find drawspells?
You had a LED. If you had found a looting, maybe you had won.
Or not?
There were two instances I had my hand on the top of my library fully prepared to draw a card to bail me out of tight scenarios. I decided to dredge instead in those instances, and while I won the games in question, the top card off each dredge was, in fact, a draw spell. I always made sure I had a dredger in the yard whether it was by mulliganing appropriately or draw-discarding. Hell, I even Therapied myself one time - binning a Troll and casting a draw spell.
People need to not be afraid to take draws based on the summation of what has already been dredged and drawn from the inception of said game. You're actually apt to hit business more often than you think.
Again, the deck is highly situational, but can explode at a moment's notice.