Kill moms, get batterskull basicly. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Artlee
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Kill moms, get batterskull basicly. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Artlee
So, I'm running a 3 SFM, 4 Delver, 2 Geist, 1 Clique build and I must be doing something wrong as I was head over heels in love with this deck for my first 5 matches with it (testing on Cockatrice) and am now seriously hating it, mostly because it seems like it really has a lot of trouble keeping up with threats and bombs, even though it has a million removal spells and another billion ways to counter said threats.
My number one concern (voiced also by Picelli89) is that it taps out a lot, preventing you from executing your disruption plan. I think I'm used to RUG and its nice one-drops and the ability keep a single mana source open, and this deck turns it on its head.
Any suggestions for lines of play in a T1, T2, T3 fashion? or hands to keep/ship back? Really having trouble with this one and I want the damn deck to work :mad:
Hey guys, this is Erik Smith, the guy that won the Invitational playing this deck in the Legacy portion to a 7-0-1 record. My friend told me about this thread so I figured I'd chime in and join the conversation. I wrote an article on Star City about the Invitational and my story, with some of it dedicated to my card choices and why I played this deck. You can read it here.
This was one of the concerns I've had with the deck. Lately, I've been testing a different version (which I will likely play this weekend at SCG Baltimore) that cuts the Geists in favor of Young Pyromancer. I'm undecided on which build I prefer. Haven't been able to get a grasp on what I like better despite playing it a bunch. Here's the current list I'm testing:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle
//Lands (19)
4 Wasteland
4 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
4 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
//Creatures (10)
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Young Pyromancer
//Artifacts (2)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
//Spells (29)
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Ponder
3 Force of Will
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Gitaxian Probe
2 Spell Snare
//Sideboard (15)
1 Rest in Peace
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
1 Sulfur Elemental
2 Meddling Mage
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Pyroblast
2 Wear // Tear
-----
The Spell Snares are something I just added in and have only played one match with. I cut a Ponder and a Swords to try them out. Swords is mostly used to clear Tarmogoyf out of the way, so I figure going back down to 3 main for another card that can also handle Goyf is fine. I can't find room for the 4th Swords in the SB. Not sure if it's necessary. I like 2 Wear // Tear in this version because Jitte is a big problem for it as compared to the Geist version.
I gotta run now, but I'll answer any questions anyone has and would definitely appreciate input and suggestions.
hey Erik, just a quick note to say congratulations for your first place win in Jersey. Keep on keepin' on! (really like the list you used)
How do you think SoFaF is working out for you? I know it's a great equipment but when I've played it I get the impression it's a little slow. Submerge is in all my sideboards, but I'm trying to figure out if it's worth replacing it with sword.
I tested Erik's list at a weekly last night. Pyromacer was decent. I went 3-2 with the following match-ups:
bug delver 2-1 win
Burn 2-0 win
Miracles 1-2 lost (stumbled on mana)
vampires 2-0 win (kid had a random modern brew)
death blade 0-2 lost
young pyromancer did no impress me. I might try to start test the following
4 delver
3 stoneforge
3 grimlavamancer/snapcaster/2 cliques (with a 4th ponder)
4 Bolt
4 stp
4 Bstorm
4 Daze
3 ponder (4 if i go 3 clique)
3 spell pierce
3 force
4 stiffle
1 jitte
1 bskull
4 tarn
4 misty
3 volcanic
3 tropical
4 wasteland
1 island
then the board of
3 rip/surgical
2 wear//tear
1 sword of feast + famine
1 force
1 sulfur elemental
3 pyroblast
2 flusterstorm
1 canonist
1 geist if st traft
The problem with Young Pyromancer in this deck is that you have a good number of spells that may lack target.
What if you put down YP and have a hand full of Plows and Stifles in a scenario where there are no targets for it, and don't have a Brainstorm avaiable?
I think this may come up often. That's why I'd suggest not to port the same list as it was exactly before with Geist, but to do some tweaks. The first monster card that a tempo deck desperately screams for, especially with Young Pyromancer, is Gitaxian Probe.
In my playtesting with UWR Delver I've found that there is a a major amount of uncertainty in the first few turns, which make you (me) overuse counters and Stifles. I think T3 is the most difficult turn to play, personally.Quote:
Originally Posted by Piceli89
I'm not exactly ready to hop on the Young Pyromancer train, as Geist is just so damn good (curve issues aside), but Gitaxian Probe might be a great way to play proactively and prevent overusing your counters, as well as help you determine what you should do your first 3-4 turns. RUG's been using it for a while, and this is a tempostifle deck with a similar feel, so I guess the questions are "what should I cut?" and "how many should I use, if any?"
Hey all, tournament report from SCG Baltimore here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ith-UWR-Delver
Probe isn't good in this deck because we don't run Goyf or DRS. We're helping those decks pump up. In fact, I went down to 2 Ponders for this reason (the original lists only had 2).
Except Probe is sick with Lavamancer and Young Pyromancer. It's awful to not max Ponders in a Delver tempo deck because you are trying to minimize Goyf and Deathrite food...Quote:
Originally Posted by akatsuki
I also don't believe Young Pyromancer is good in this deck. That card has a lot of power but hasn't found it's shell yet. Perhaps it's in UWR, but for now, UWR already has a solid creature base and I think we should not consider Young Pyromancer as part of the standard UWR Delver deck, of which I was referring to. In the normal UWR list, pumping your opponent's stuff is bad.
Looking through the decklists that won the invitational and open, I haven't seen many lists running karakas. Why is this? Does anyone think its necessary for SnT and reanimator match ups?
Thanks :)Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackPurple
SoFaF has been great whenever I've brought it in. Against BUG, it forces them to use an Abrupt Decay on it, and since they don't run much removal and you run relatively few threats, this is big. It's also good against Jund, although they have burn so it's not quite as good there as it is in the BUG matchup. I like swapping it in for the Jitte in combo matchups, although I've been siding out the Stoneforge package against Storm as it is too slow there I think. Against Show and Tell, for example, it's not unlikely that they have a relatively slow draw and Sword can do a lot of work there. It's also excellent against the clunkier combo/ramp decks, like MUD, Tezzeret, and Cloudpost. I wouldn't cut it from the board.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackPurple
I tested with Submerge as Gerard said he liked the one he played in his board at the Open in Somerset, but it was always pretty bad for me. I don't have experience playing with it though, so it's certainly possible that I was playing with it wrong.
This is a concerning matchup. I'll get to this in a moment when I discuss how SCG Baltimore went for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by lambert101
Good job, sucks about that last round though :(. My friend Rob (who originally suggested Stoneforge to me prior to the invi) ended up losing in the finals to the guy you would've kept out of top 8 (or, more specifically, Blood Moon).Quote:
Originally Posted by akatsuki
I don't think this is too much of a concern, especially enough to cut a Ponder. I was trying 4 Ponder for a bit but felt it was too much, but I think 3 is the perfect number. I wouldn't play two. You have Swords to deal with Goyf pre-board and Relic/RiP post do a good job keeping it in check. DRS hits instants or sorceries so the fact that Probe is a sorcery isn't relevant to DRS unless you're replacing it with a non-spell (which I don't think is right).Quote:
Originally Posted by akatsuki
So, SCG Baltimore... not good. I played the list I posted above, except that I added a 4th Pyromancer, cutting a Daze, just prior to the tournament. My friend Kevin Jones also played the same 75 and was concerned about having too few threats. Daze is awesome early on in the game, but it's the card I often found rotting in my hand too often, so despite its synergy with Pyromancer, I felt like that was the best card to cut for an additional creature. I don't regret that decision.
The Spell Snares were excellent and I definitely prefer them over Pierces. They're additional removal against a lot of the creatures that you spend your Bolts and Swords on (Bob, Stoneforge, Goyf). They hit a lot of key cards in other decks (Infernal Tutor and Burning Wish in Storm, Rest in Peace/Energy Field/Counterbalance in Miracles, etc.). Definitely overperformed my expectations.
I started off the tournament 2-0 against two essential byes, All Spells and Charbelcher. I then had an off-camera feature match against the UW Miracles player that went on to Top 8. This matchup felt MISERABLE. He completely locked me out in game with 1 both Counter/Top and RiP/Energy Field. Game 2 dragged on and on but I never felt like I had a chance.
Round 4 I get paired vs. Storm which is a very favorable matchup. In Game 1, he mulligans to 5, and I have a solid hand but not much disruption. Nevertheless, I get him down to 5 life, 4 cards in hand, and he passes the turn to my Insectile Aberration and Delver. If there's an instant or sorcery on top of my deck, game over. There's not, I knock him to 1 and pass back. He's able to Ritual into a Past in Flames and Preordain into the land he needed to finish going off and get exactly 9 storm for a lethal Tendrils.
Game 2, I keep a hand without disruption besides a Meddling Mage. This may have been a mulligan, but I had a Brainstorm and felt like a turn two Mage would buy me the time to find more disruption. Land, go, and he started off with a Gitaxian Probe. I brain-farted and Brainstormed in response for really no reason, and then amplified my mistake by failing to keep the Daze that it hit in my hand. He saw a hand with no instant-speed disruption, and then Petal'd into a Dark Ritual and turn 1'd me. Some rough beats and a misplay in a favorable matchup. Okay, dead for top 8 (or so I thought at the time - two X-2's did end up making it in), but still live for money.
Round 5, I get yet another UW Miracles player. This matchup is closer and in game 3 he's on 3 lands with no cards in hand, a Counterbalance and a Top in play, and tapped out. I have a Batterskull and a Mystic in play and attack him down to 7. I cast a Pyromancer to give me lethal the following turn, and he uses Counterbalance revealing... Terminus. Couldn't come back from there :(
Round 6, I face my third HORRENDOUS matchup of the tournament. This time, Meathooks. There's little this deck can do against uncounterable, flying, shrouded 4/4's. :(
2-4 now and completely dead, I rattle off wins against a weird 5 color Scroll Rack/Land Tax deck (I at least had good laughs here, as he cast multiple cards that just flabbergasted me that I needed to look up Oracle wording for, such as PREACHER and Chains of Mephistopheles), Elves (very favorable matchup - spot removal, counterspells, and Grim Lavamancer), and RUG Delver (he had some rough draws and I had a great one game 1 with a Delver, double Daze and Stifle).
I was on megatilt after starting 2-4 with 3 very unfavorable matchups, but in retrospect, I don't think I should be too worried. I liked the deck outside of those two matchups. I'm still undecided on Pyromancer though and am currently grinding some matches on MODO with a list that has the whole package of Delver, SFM, Pyromancer and Geist. When Pyromancer was in play during the SCG, which was rare (just as happenstance of not drawing it), it shined. Kevin, despite also finishing 5-4, was raving about how good Pyromancer was for him. I don't remember all of the decks he lost against but he also had one loss to Miracles, as well as Reanimator and Burn.
It was a disappointing weekend for me, though I was happy to see Rob make it to the finals. He plays that Jund deck extremely well. I'm not discouraged by the deck, though. I'm liking the combination of Pyromancer, Geist and SFM, after originally disliking it when I first tried it out, although I might end up reverting back to the non-Pyromancer version of the deck. We'll see how testing goes.
It's definitely not necessary for the Show and Tell matchup. You have more countermagic than they do, and keeping them off balance for enough time to kill them is not difficult.Quote:
Originally Posted by teonsw
The Reanimator matchup has been fine for me, although a Karakas could help there. My problem with it is that it doesn't tap for blue mana. When I played UWR Delver to top 4 in Worcester, I played a Plateau since I often found myself wanting to fetch for it in testing. However, in practice, it was terrible. Four times in the tournament, including in my top 4 match, I had a hand that would be an easy keep if it had blue mana (for example: Delver, Daze, Ponder, Brainstorm, Force, Stifle, land), yet because it was a Plateau, I had to ship it. It's one of the worst feelings and it's enough of a blowout that I wouldn't feel comfortable running a non-blue land.
I'm saying Buh-bye to SFM for a while. Upon further review and reflection, I think it's been the wrench in the spokes for me and is incredibly anti-tempo.
Not to mention my meta has two Shardless BUG and a Jund player every time we play, so Thoughtseize, Hymn, and Liliana really make it superbad.
I'm going with a more aggro build. We'll see how it goes.
@Kyle, please talk more about your aggro build. My meta has BUG and Jund's...Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle
I see what you mean with consistency, although it does allow you to swing and save your Geist from dying as well as get more value on clique. I am going to test both with and without karakas tonight to see how it feels.Quote:
Originally Posted by thoughtxriot
In addition, has anyone tested against or played against affinity. This seems like a horrid match up with our only ways out being jitte, engineered explosives and wear and tear out of the board.
Yeah the match up is really bad, if you're talking about the Master/Etched Champion version with Chalice out of the board. Not much you can do, I would say not worry about it. Every deck has a nightmare match up and Affinity is not a bad one to have. If you really want, you can always play Energy Flux
I'm playing with the list Erik won SCG with, and I tend to side out Spell Pierce unless im playing vs a combo deck. As I am not facing many combo decks in my meta, I am thinking about moving them to the SB. I was wondering why no one plays forked bolt? Is it to prevent Tarmogoyf from growing?
I played the deck this past Sunday based on Gerard's maindeck list from SCG Somerset with a few changes:
Lands (20)
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
1 Island
4 Wasteland
Creatures (13)
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Vendilion Clique
Spells (28)
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Ponder
61 Cards total
My sideboard was about 2/3 the same as Gerard's but with a few changes for my meta.
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Electrickery
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Wear//Tear
2 Meddling Mage
2 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Rest In Peace
1 Surgical Extraction
Electrickery was a last minute random addition to fill in for Sword of Feast and Famine and the Force moved to the main. I figured it would/could be decent against Elves, Maverick and Affinity which are fairly regular to see for me.
I actually made the change from SFM to Pyromancer in the parking lot before the tournament. My reasoning was the same as Kyle's. SFM just seems too slow when the deck has the potential to be quite fast.
About 10mins before the tournament started, the store owner asked us if we wanted to make it a $10 buy-in instead of $5 and make 1st place a FtV: 20. Obviously we all said yes. We ended up with 12 players since I imagine we lost a few to the Mirkwood Cup which was taking place up north. 2 players from that made it since they left when they were out of contention for prizes.
Round 1 vs. John with Bant Boggle
He's a good player, but doesn't have many expensive cards so he makes do with what he has.
Game 1: I get an early clock on him then take out his lands.
Game 2: Same as the first but Electrickery was able to take out his Hexproof guy.
1-0; 2-0
Round 2 vs. Chris with Dark Maverick (Splash for Deathrite and Decay?)
He's one of the better Maverick players that comes to our store, so I know I'll have to work for it.
Game 1: I think I dropped a Delver turn 1 and he dropped a Hierarch. On my turn 2 I kill MoM and he tries to Wasteland me but I have Stifle for that. On turn 3 he drops Thalia and on my turn I drop Geist then Waste one of his 2 lands. On my next turn I get rid of Thalia then Waste another of his lands and at this point he's mana screwed too far to recover.
Game 2: He wrecks my mana this time.
Game 3: Same as Game 1 but with no Geist and more Elemental tokens. At one point he went to block Pyromancer with MoM then when he went to give it protection I killed it.
2-0; 4-1
Round 3 vs. Reese with Maverick
Another regular Maverick player at our store.
This went mostly the same as the previous round except in one game I got mana flooded/hosed all at the same time thanks to Mindcensor. I kept drawing Fetches and I think I blanked on 2 of them.
In Game 3 I was able to kill off his Goyf with Lavamancer since he has 1 card in his grave and I had 2 in mine which put it back to Squire status. Pyromancer helped me again in this round to speed up my clock.
3-0; 6-2
Round 4 vs. BJ with UG Infect
Of all the decks he's played, he's had the most success with this one. It has the potential to win quite fast. But I liked my odds due to the amount of Counters and Removal the deck runs. Plus I know his deck pretty well and know that he has limited counters and threats.
Before the round I asked him if he wanted to work out a split but we couldn't think of anything and he didn't seem too interested in the split anyways so off to the races we go.
Game 1: I drop a Delver (I think) and he Land Grants on his turn. A bunch of pump spells and 2 Dazes from what I remember (will check notes tomorrow and edit with actual cards). I end up with 2 Pyromancers in play and swing at him with them. He attempts to Berserk one of them so it'll die at the end of turn but I no sir that and net 2 tokens. He draws nothing on his turn and I topdeck Pyromancer #3. Still had all these Elementals.
Game 2: He Land Grants again but has a threat this time with pump spells in hand (not lethal though thankfully). I play a Pyromancer thinking I'll just chump block with tokens before I realize it was Blighted Agent. Derp. Speeds up my clock at least. On his next turn he hits me for 5 Infect since he didn't draw another pump spell (he still had an Invigorate in hand which would have raised it to 9). I attempt to kill his guy on my turn and he casts Misdirection but I counter that for another token. I don't think he drew another threat from there before I was able to kill him with Delver, Pyromancer and Elementals.
4-0; 8-2 overall.
I ended up with the FtV set all for the low, low price of $10.
As for changes I plan to try/do:
-Change one of the Tundras to the 4th Volcanic.
-Cutting Clique or at least moving it to the board. The one game I remember drawing it, it seemed like a win more card.
-Cutting 1 Daze, 1 Stifle and adding Probes or maybe Spell Snares. Likely Probe due to it being a free spell for Pyromancer.
-Potentially moving Lavamancer to the side.
-I'm giving thought to being able to run Blood Moon from the Board since it wrecks so many decks in the current meta. And with Pyromancer over Stoneforge I'm less dependent on white.