[Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

I know this was already discussed, but I would like to raise the subject once more and perhaps go a little more in depth with the situation. I play Dead Guy Ale and it works very nicely for me. My only two matchups that I am truely concerned with are weenie and straight up burn... sadly, this deck absolutely gets on it's knees for burn, and weenie just runs the deck over. When those two decks combines (Boros Deck Wins), BW Dead Guy just gets ripped into pieces. They burn our pathetic little creatures and swing FTW with random 2 power creatures. You really need to deny them of red and get lucky picks of hyms to win this matchup without any tech against it. If it is just mono white weenie, then ebon hand works just fine, but when they splash red, problems start to surface. I am beginning to test 2 mainboard descendent of the kiyomaros in place of Gerard's verdict... yes I know, the card costs the dreaded double white, but if you think about it, it really isnt terrible for what you get with the card. If you get it's ability going, good luck boros. I will post with results to this testing, but I think it might be something to fight back at red/white agro burn decks. Any suggestions???

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Originally Posted by NANTUKO_SHADY

Any suggestions???

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Absolute Law? Hell, it even doubles as Goblins hate, protects your threats, and weakens theirs. It turns Burn into a straight up race, which isn't all that difficult if you're attacking their hand in the early game and they can't touch your threats.

I like the idea of absolute law. You could just take out the sinkholes for them and be no lighter on threats.

Isn't Auriok Champion better than descendent of whatever? Champion can, hypothetically, hit play on turn two, and start gaining you life right off the bat. You also lose the possiblity of Helix+Bolt taking her out, which you have with the descendent.

That's just my guesswork though, I haven't tested either of them so I wouldn't know.

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Originally Posted by CorruptedAngel

Then what's the point? You are adding, essentially, a Swamp that cannot be Fetched, can be Wasted, and pings you every time you tap it for mana for the off chance that you can throw away all of your lands for an easily removable token? This seems rather risky.

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Easily removable mine arse. As a 5/5, lightning bolt doesn't touch it. Gobblins probably can't incinerate it and silly things like hardcasted Slice and Dice from Rifter won't even kill it.

Yes, STP hits it and Solidarity can cunning wish for a bounce spell, but Eldariel is right when he mentions that through discard-use their answers will deplete, in which case the uncounterable 5/5 flyer can finish things quite quickly. I mean, if you activate at their EoT, that's a 5/5 w/ haste. That gives them 4- turns to find an answer.

Besides all that, this deck needs what, 3 lands to operate? If you've got the mana to pay for tomb, you've probably got more where that came from, in which case you can just hold back a land.

If you use it correctly, Tomb will just randomly win you games, while losing you none that you wouldn't have lost anyway.

Oh my stars... I had never heard of absolute law up until then, ( ripping up descendants). Thank you godzilla for introducing me to this card. It is infintely times better than descendant, and it does double as goblin hate as well. and they only sell for a buck.. sweet!!:smile:

I just entered a vaguely fact-oriented tournament report, including the correct list I played to a top 8 spot, here (single post view). If I don't answer a question here, then maybe I answered it there.

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Originally Posted by Eldariel

I think the low threat count is the #1 hinderance for the deck.

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Exactly! The creature count is one of two reasons why I audibled into Godzilla's list a few days before the event, despite having been playtesting Pikula Deadguy for several weeks. The other reason was the substitution of Swords for Scrolls in the main, as they are ready to deal with threats turn one. (Although I made room for the Scrolls in the side.)

However, even after a few day's testing of the Zilla Deadguy list, I still found the finishing strength lacking - thus the Tomb of Urami went in. Tomb of Urami definitely would have won me the game I drew, if I wasn't so stressed at going to time again and had actually playtested with it. It also gave me a fast clock when I had to finish my round five Solidarity opponent. I will definitely test the list with two in the main, in place of Swamps.

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Originally Posted by rsaunder

If they deal with your 5/5, you have no recourse. All of your lands are destroyed, and this deck tends to have a relatively low hand size (thus dark confident is nuts), and you have to topdeck lands to get back into the game.

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I hear you, but in practice things went a little differently. I found that Tomb of Urami has three modes:

* Good Mode: Especially if you get Dark Confidant to stay in play at all, you will usually end up with extra lands in your hand, eliminating the need to topdeck lands. Thus, you have the option to sacrifice your manabase for a big threat. Also, if they can't remove Confidant, how will they remove Urami?
* Pain Mode: You don't have extra lands. You need more mana. Tomb is essentially a non-basic pseudo-Swamp with pain attached. I discuss the costs of that pain in the next paragraph.
* Desperation Mode: You are going to lose if you don't get a threat out now. Who cares if you need to topdeck lands? Take the chance that they can kill your 5/5, because it's the only shot you've got.

At the Dual Land Draft, the damage from Tomb of Urami never actully made a difference, but, for example, I avoided tapping it to activate Wretch's ability at end of turn unless I absolutely had to. I suppose sometimes it will make a difference, but we'll have to see how often the Tomb pain kills us, as compared to how often Urami wins the game for us. For me that was no game losses to (at least) two games where it made (or would have made) for a huge win.

Regarding Absolute Law - Don't forget that it makes Rifter a lot less potent, too!

Sorry I missed this thread for so long. So I'll just throw out some thoughts on what I've seen up to this point.

@ Jitte: Definitely keep it away from this deck. Could make a hippy pretty beasty but not worth it nonetheless.

@ Splashing red: Seems like a good idea but I just think white offers better control (StP / Absolute Law) and Vindicate can handle the removal role pretty well. It seems worth the extra mana over Lightning Bolt but the fact that it takes out anything makes it worth it to me, especially since you've got plenty of first and second turn disruptors to keep them from even dropping anything until you have the extra mana for it.

@ Gerrard's Verdict: I'm glad to find a deck that uses this awesome card. Sims already explained its leetness.

@ Withered Wretch: Seems handy enough to keep a spot, especially in a Gro/Tog/Reanimator-heavy meta.

@ Pithing Needle: I have to go with Disenchant. Can cast as instant, and doesn't sit around waiting to be destroyed. Disenchant just seems better here.

@ 4th Shade: Yes.

@ Weenies matchup: I would think the Scrolls and Blasts would help there, or even pumping a Shade as a blocker. I don't have any advice there, I'm confounded.

@ Burn Matchup: Sphere of Law seems like too much of a mana-stretch and CoP:Red kinda wastes away your mana quickly as well when you're trying to cast your own threats. But then again, turn 2 Dark Rit to Sphere of Law could save the day.

Overall, like the deck. When I get some spare cash I'll see if I can nab a build to toy around with.

Well... i won a small tournament today with this list:

7 Swamp, 4 Scrubland, 8 Fetchlands, 4 Wasteland, 4 Rituals
4 Confidant, 4 Specter, 4 Wretch, 3 Shade
4 Duress, 4 Hymn, 4 Sinkhole, 4 Vindicate
2 Scrolls
SB: 4 Plague, 3 Darkblast, 3 StoP, 2 Needle, 3 Perish

Just for the record: I played 2-0 vs. VG, 2-0 vs. Zompy, 2-1 vs. subpar Burn, 0-2 vs. 4cNQG, 2-0 vs. 2Land.
I have tested various lists on MWS for some time and was often disappointed with my playskill, but on the tournament all of a sudden i was able to decide corectly about my turn 2 plays...

My thoughs about the choices are:

• I am quite happy with my base. During tests i was very annoyed by the decks lack of consisitent BB on turn 2 on the one hand and its tendency for flooding on the other. So far playing more fetchlands was fine for me.
  I do not like any pseudo-dual solution at all.
• I enjoy the Scrolls very much and consider them very valuable. I see the contradiction with Shade as it was pointed out, but i would consider the Shades being guilty for that. I very much tend to go for only 2 Shades, cause i repeatedly expierience them as useless in situation where the decks fattie should become a control tool and the Shades failed to accomplish that.
  I consider 4 Withered Wretch an auto-inclusion due to the meta shift post Philly (note that we have a slighly higher % of NQG and a slighter lower % of VG in Germany in addition).
• Obviously my list is just horrible against Burn. I haven't decided about my SB choice for Burn yet (we did't expect Burn to be present at that event at all). I tend to go for Ministration... as a weak answer to any kind of red damage... and because i was familiar to using them in some other decks.
• My testing results against NQGw are bad despite the inclusion of Perish. My results about NQGr are just pure horror. I have severe doubt that boarding Perish (+ some Plowshares etc.) is the final and most correct way to handle that MU.
  In addition to not being successful, that plan just does not feel right imo... but i have no alternative to present yet (and i doubt Lynx is a satisfying one).

I know most of this is nothing new. But i wanted at least show that i am in for that stuff now...
...updates (with more relevant ideas (at least i hope so)) will follow.
I hope i did not bore you.

In my testing, Cursed Scroll has been the all-star in attrition wars, since opponents simply can't often take care of it. I'd definately go to 3, even at the cost of something like a Sinkhole, since Scroll is that one card which really allows winning against Gobbos pre-board. Have you considered the Tombs, btw? Do you recall a sitiuation from the tourney, where having a Tomb instead of a Swamp would've won you the game? On another note, Tomb is again a fine card against Gobbos, as they often have serious trouble in dealing with creatures larger than their deck.

Btw, that's a lot of creature hate on the SB in 4 Plagues, 3 StPs AND 3 Perishes. Since the deck already goes after the graveyard pretty strongly with Wretches, how about something like Leyline of the Void, Planar Void or such against Gro? When their deck suddenly constitutes of 1/1s, it's much less scary and with some SB-cards, you'd have 7 cards to make that happen post-SB. Another option would of course be to go after their landbase. They aren't casting that Mystic Enforcer if they control at most 1 land throughout the game. Then again, these appear to be the wrong colours for good non-basic hate...

Hello everybody. Even though I just joined The Source, I have been watching over a few particuler threads for awhile, this one specifically. I've looked at your arguments for and against certain cards, and based on your opinions, along with my own general expirences from playtesting, i have devised this list:

// Lands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
4 Scrubland
9 Swamp
1 Tainted Field

// Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
3 Nantuko Shade
4 Hypnotic Specter

// Spells
2 Engineered Plague
4 Duress
4 Vindicate
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Cursed Scroll
4 Sinkhole
4 Dark Ritual
3 Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Withered Wretch
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 3 Darkblast
SB: 3 Perish
SB: 3 Seal of Cleansing

My sideboard is still sketchy, and I don't have access to needles for it. But the MD seems quite solid. I really like the STP's as they are always good to have against goblins, can be relevant in the Threshold matchups, and they are nice agianst those other random aggro decks like Angel Stompy and Green Stompy. Like Godzilla said, I haven't noticed that much of a difference after switching to 22 lands; the deck still runs about as good as normal, and it allows me to use 3 StP's, which is invaluable.

The reason I choose to run STP over Verdict is because, first of all, teh deck already has 12 MD disruption spells, all of which can be played within turns 1-2. Secondly, people are talking about how they Gerrards Verdict themselves to gain life. That might be nice, but I think it's not worth the -3 card advantage to gain 6 life. STP gets rid of prominent threats in play, such as a goblin, quirion dryad, or even stuff in the mirror. However, if you are really in a position where you ened life, you can STP your own bob, get rid of him and gain 2 life to boot.

But I am currently testing STP at the moment. I'm not 100% sure that I want to keep it MD.

Verdicting yourself against burn is worth it. You lose 2 lands you wouldn't have needed anyways, and the Verdict to retroactively undo their last 2 spells. Very strong especially if they're topdecking. That's not the main purpose of the card, but there are sitiuations where that becomes useful too, so it's good to keep in mind.

Also, as Goblins seem to be in decline, maindeck Plagues are almost universally removed. You don't necessarily need a Plague to win game 1 against Goblins anyways and it isn't very strong against anything else. On the other hand, maindeck Withered Wretch is almost universally played and as a 4-of no less. Threshold is The deck to beat presently, and even against decks that don't care about graveyard, it's still a solid 2/2 bear for 2, something the deck lacks. Even Pikula mentioned in his tournament report that he often sided in Withered Wretches just to increase his threat count.

Also, one card that I'd at least consider worth including is Tomb of Urami. I'd suggest 2 more fetches and removing Tainted Field for more consistent white mana, if you add it (since Tainted Field can't produce coloured mana with Tomb in play). Tomb of Urami is very potent in giving you a fast clock, some way to use your excess lands and an additional threat if you play against a removal-heavy opponent and are topdecking crap. Also, a third Scroll is definately worth considering as it's immune to creature removal and a damn good way to bring opponent to 0 while also being a gamewinner against Goblins and the like.


Btw, the biggest thing going on for StP in this deck is, it kills Mystic Enforcer, an otherwise-lethal Gro creature (well, I guess you could remove their grave and double-scroll/Plague-scroll it, but yea...). But yea, if you want MD StP, I'd suggest upping the fetch-count as you'll need that white mana early every game you draw it. Of course StP also does a host of other relevant functions, killing Lackeys, Warchiefs, removing Eternal Dragons for good, etc.

Is there any place for the new Dissension tutor in this deck, or is it too slow and restrictive?

I feel it is way too restrictive. Esspecially with Confidant, you will not have a empty hand too often. I think the only way to make good use of the new tutor is in either a superfast black (splashing) aggro deck, or in combination with with LED.

In almost every other situation, you'd rather have an other buisinesscard.

PS: On the other hand, I once trade away all my Onslaught fetch because I felt the Mirage onces were a lot better, so don't pay too much attention to my opinions :)

I feel it might have some benefits. Finding a second Confidant or Vindicate or Engineered Plague could be pretty hot. The ability to find a copy of a card in your hand isn't entirely worthless after all. 2 Plagues are better than 1.

I am 100% for the addition of a tutor in this deck.

I would love nothing more for you to diddle with yourself for a turn rather than blow up a land, rip cards out of my hand, or drop a scary win condition.

That's true, but I dislike the fact you can't search for a Vindicate or Plague when you need one (and don't have on in your hand). I think I'd rather play something like Rhystic tutor than I'd play the new one. Esspecially in Deadguy's Ale where your opponent doesn't get too much last most of the time.

I think the best thing is to play just a lot of answers and threats, instead of a conditional tutor.

Stop the Sarcasm. That just creates confusion : )

Tutors are bad in this deck, really bad. And the 2-Mana slot is...umm...full.

It is a little slow, and a bit conditional, but I can see some uses in my head:

1) It is restrictive, but is emptying your hand that difficult? I know it has mediocre synergy with Confidant, but do you have trouble winning games where a Confidant sticks?

2)Turn 1: Duress
Turn 2: Ritual, Hymn, Tutor
Turn 3: Hymn

3)Is fetching a second Vindicate ever a bad thing?

4)Can go get 1 of win conditions like Tomb of Urami.

I'm not completely sold on it being in the deck, but I think it deserves some testing.

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Originally Posted by Phantom

2)Turn 1: Duress
Turn 2: Ritual, Hymn, Tutor
Turn 3: Hymn

3)Is fetching a second Vindicate ever a bad thing?

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2) Yes. With Ritual plus Hymn plus Random-spell plus lands every hand is good. Nevertheless would Hymn/Sinkhole Hymn/Confidant be much better.

3) Yes. It is bad. If you pay 2BBW to destroy target permanent it is not the same as paying 1BW.

I can see many potential in the card, too. But not in this deck. Deadguys gameplan is really dependend on how it spends the first 2-3 turns and can't afford to play slow cards that won't affect your opponents play immediately. Furthermore the deck is "full", so there is no room for a tutor + 1-off engine.

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Originally Posted by Tao

I can see many potential in the card, too. But not in this deck.

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I don't know if I agree. Often times the deck is at its best when it is able to focus a great deal of one disruption type in the early game, as opposed to one or two pieces of several. For example, a turn 2 Sinkhole followed by a turn 3 Hymn is very strong, but is often not as powerful as a Sinkhole followed by yet another Sinkhole.

Often times, the ability to focus on either land or hand hate specifically will add consistency to the deck's gameplan, which is in fact exactly what it needs. Consider how often you think to yourself "if I just had one more Sinkhole or Wasteland, he'd be totally screwed", or the same of Hymn or Duress or Vindicate. Tutor can provide this kind of consistency, although there's an obvious tempo loss. On the plus side, it also lets you tutor up one of your two Scrolls when your hand is empty, which seems like a bonus.

I'm not certain it will be a good addition, but I definitely think it should be tested before being dismissed outright.

Tutoring up a Wasteland allows for use on the very same turn. Turn 2 Sinkhole followed by turn 3 Infernal-Wasteland and turn 4 Wasteland on Threshold for example seems pretty brutal. A deck running 17 lands doesn't like losing 3 of them. I say it's worth testing, because who hasn't hoped to draw that second Engineered Plague against Goblins?