Changes to the planeswalker uniqueness rule

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ankharlyn

Except this rule only removes interaction, and doesn't replace it with anything except brainless auto-pilot. You used to have to pay attention to what legendary permanents your opponent was playing. Now you don't, and can just slap shit down without any thought at all. That's less interaction, not more.

---

*Sigh*
Yes, but now you cannot just easily handle your opponents legendary bombs like jace and jitte by playing them yourself. Some might consider that "dumb" and lazy. Now building and playing your deck you have to carefully consider how to handle those permanents or gain a tempo advantage and be first.

In the Jace war: Jace+Force was at will be good game a vast majority of the time. But now instead of removing the jace you get to brainstorm yourself. The opponent is 1 jace activition ahead but there is a significant chance that you can handle his "tries to handle yours" or that he simply does not find something to handle your jace while you do. I think you can easier come back this.

With jitte you cannot just let them gain counters which only mess with your/their life total until you find your own jitte. You'll have to focus more on handling your opponents board or find some artifact removal. Playing your own jitte will often result in the creature you are trying to equip beeing killed by the opponents jitte.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by clavio

What about removing "damage on the stack"? Turns out the game was fine after that despite the shitstorm.

---

I agree it's more similar in terms of impact, but I think that's also a bit different because damage on the stack was largely confusing in the ways you could use it to do wacky things. The legend rule was as crystal clear as you could possibly make it, and the new rules are way more confusing (not in understanding them as such, but in terms of the weird states that it can cause and the corner cases therein).

I'm not even saying the game will "die" or anything because of this, either. I don't think that. I do think it will make the game less interactive and require vastly less strategic thought. Before, you had to think about legendaries. Now? Nope, just slap shit down blindly, doesn't matter.

W+Mouse1 to victory! Or in Magic terms, slap shit down blindly, turn guys sideways to victory.

What the new set and lands are concerned, I don't get why they didn't just suck it up and make some other supertype like 'unique'. That seems more in line with what they would have done in the past. ... I wonder if they playtested this rules change with eternal.

My biggest complaint is that it removes one way to destroy an opponents' planeswalkers. On some margin, that adds incentive to play more dudes in legacy. So far, I've been enjoying the fact that legacy mostly dodges Wizard's design philosophies about how everyone loves creatures so why wouldn't we want to play more!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ankharlyn

I agree it's more similar in terms of impact, but I think that's also a bit different because damage on the stack was largely confusing in the ways you could use it to do wacky things. The legend rule was as crystal clear as you could possibly make it, and the new rules are way more confusing (not in understanding them as such, but in terms of the weird states that it can cause and the corner cases therein).

I'm not even saying the game will "die" or anything because of this, either. I don't think that. I do think it will make the game less interactive and require vastly less strategic thought. Before, you had to think about legendaries. Now? Nope, just slap shit down blindly, doesn't matter.

W+Mouse1 to victory! Or in Magic terms, slap shit down blindly, turn guys sideways to victory.

---

I find the overgeneralization a little disingenuous. Simply checking for Legendary status or same-name Planeswalkers doesn't make a turn four auto-drop Jace. WHAT ABOUT NOTION THIEF, MAN.

Actually, after the initial 'wtf' has worn off, I think the change is remarkably similar to removing "damage on the stack". For example, the line of play with Mogg Fanatic was entirely clear, nearly to the point of choicelessness - sac it if it's going to die to combat damage, ping something. Maybe it takes out a 2/2 that way, or maybe it just hits a 1/1, or maybe it goes to the face. You had options, sure, but not a ton of actual thought or choice about it. Same with stuff like Jitte; Jitte was a mini-Jace in its omnipresence in several formats and it was its best answer. Now drawing a Jitte and playing it doesn't just invalidate the opponent's Jitte. You have to draw an actual answer. This means Mono-Black beats featuring Jitte can't just auto-destroy an opposing Jitte, and so the Black deck actually has as much of a weakness to artifacts as it did before. This is a corner case here, but I do sort of see what they did there in saying "it is stupid to answer a card by virtue of playing the same card". Not as uniquitous as, say, Mental Misstep, but quite similar in that it answers itself better than the actual answers. That's a little contrived.

People citing mana burn and such as obvious times that the game did not fall apart... Those things were way less relevant. Especially in these times with many very powerful legendary permanents and Planeswalkers. People saying this doesnt affect too much are very wrong.

What I think will be awsome with these new rules changes; Two Miracles players. Both having expended their resources countering each other's Counterbalances and Jaces, each having both Clique/Venser AND Karakas in play. Sounds like prime time feature match to me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ayotte

My biggest complaint is that it removes one way to destroy an opponents' planeswalkers. On some margin, that adds incentive to play more dudes in legacy. So far, I've been enjoying the fact that legacy mostly dodges Wizard's design philosophies about how everyone loves creatures so why wouldn't we want to play more!

---

Yep, dodging the incredibly poor direction of Standard is exactly why I got interested in Legacy. I like spells. I like interactive games, instead of "just slap dudes down, turn sideways".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rufus

I wonder if they playtested this rules change with eternal.

---

Doesn't seem like it at all, given how much it shakes things up. I think they are just designing for Standard and maybe Modern alone, and the consequences for Legacy be damned.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Megadeus

People citing mana burn and such as obvious times that the game did not fall apart... Those things were way less relevant. Especially in these times with many very powerful legendary permanents and Planeswalkers. People saying this doesnt affect too much are very wrong.

---

Agreed, it's definitely not the same at all. I don't think the game will die, but it's still a piss poor change.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ankharlyn

I disagree, shocklands are significantly different. They EtB tapped if you don't pay 2 life, which is a lot more difference in terms of mechanics than just having "legendary" sub type or whatever. Sure, legendary duals wouldn't work *quite* the same since you'd have to sac one if you put a second down, but I don't think legal would consider that enough of a difference to get around the functional reprint rules.

---

Plague Sliver and Juzam Djinn would have a word with you...

I'd love to se Legendary Dual Lands and they wouldn't be a functional reprint of dual lands (duals would be strictly better ALWAYS)

I think this opens the door for Jace to get banned.

Do people want Jace Banned though? Sure I hate playing against the card but I mean it is a fun card to play with and I dont think it is overly broken. Maybe a tad more expensive than I would like but whatever.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Megadeus

Do people want Jace Banned though? Sure I hate playing against the card but I mean it is a fun card to play with and I dont think it is overly broken. Maybe a tad more expensive than I would like but whatever.

---

People will probably just run more Vindicates/Revokers/Needles/REBs.

I do not understand why Jace would be getting noticeably better in Legacy than before from this rules change. Somebody enlighten me?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zinch

Plague Sliver and Juzam Djinn would have a word with you...

I'd love to se Legendary Dual Lands and they wouldn't be a functional reprint of dual lands (duals would be strictly better ALWAYS)

---

If Plague Sliver was BB and not 2BB and actually had the same ability, instead of giving that ability to all slivers (which is a bigger drawback than Juzam by a long shot), I would agree.

Also, I'm not saying I wouldn't love to have legendary duals. I would. I hate the reserved list with a passion. I just think WotC would rather screw people that like to actually, y'know, play the game in favor of protecting speculators and garbage like that than print legendary duals.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Megadeus

Do people want Jace Banned though? Sure I hate playing against the card but I mean it is a fun card to play with and I dont think it is overly broken. Maybe a tad more expensive than I would like but whatever.

---

Before I would have said no. After this change my vote is for banning it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tao

I do not understand why Jace would be getting noticeably better in Legacy than before from this rules change. Somebody enlighten me?

---

Because before you couldn't play Jace, -1 him, then play another Jace, have the first go to the yard, and -1 the second one (and third and so on). That's a significant boost in power. Not to mention he's *way* harder to kill now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tao

I do not understand why Jace would be getting noticeably better in Legacy than before from this rules change. Somebody enlighten me?

---

Because now Blue players have one less answer to an opposing JTMS, whereas before they could just blow it up with their own Jace.

The more I think about it, the less reasonable it sounds, actually. People bitch about cards being their own best answer all the time. Force that FOW? Block your Goyf with my Goyf of equal mass? Misstep the Misstep, SFM -> Jitte for the Jiite you just played, and so on. From the strict flavor standpoint of "a Legendary object can only exist in one place at a time", sure it makes sense, and I always way more appreciated the Kamigawa legend rule change for it because prior to, an opponent throwing down a Legend you have in your deck meant you flat-out could not play that Legend (or it would be destroyed on entry, so it was generally utterly pointless to play it). Anyone have those fond memories of Mono-White Control in Onslaught Type 2, racing to grab Akroma before the opponent could? That's terrible.

I don't think this makes Jace stronger, just because other Blue decks can't blow him up with their own Jace. I do think that the necessity to have dedicated answers exists, but it's a planeswalker for crying out loud, it can be attacked and burned. Lots of decks can just answer them. I don't feel too bad for Blue players if they lost a recursive answer to Jace, or for that matter, anyone who was willing to answer Legendary creatures with Phantasmal Image; so Blue has to counter more things. Aw, shucks. Feels bad man.

I don't want to drop a Jones on the thread but I've been trying to call it for a long time now; that terrible rule about redirecting damage via Bolts and Shocks and shit to planeswalkers is going to change, sooner rather than later, and this rule is predicting that change or at least catalyzing it. There will be a raised expectation for "real answers" to exist, and cards like Dreadbore - which by the way, we were never supposed to see "target planeswalker" on a card, if you use the Wayback Machine to read up on old statements regarding what the net effect of 'walkers was supposed to have on the game - anyway, cards like Dreadbore or like Sorin Lord of Innistrad that explicitly target planeswalkers will want to be seen at a more regular printing. The more cards that say "target planeswalker" and the more new people come into the game wondering why Incinerate targets a player but gets its damage redirected to Liliana, will prompt another rules shift and require explicit targeting. Gather ye Rift Bolts while ye may, I guess.

EDIT - to be clear, I think having to answer planeswalkers with a method outside of "play a walker with the same name" is a Good Thing, even though seeing two Thalias on opposing sides of the battlefield will be hard to swallow for a while. I think it forces decks to diversify their ability to address varied threats. Mono-black Jitting a Jitte is stupid; mono-Blue Jacing a Jace is equally dumb. If you want to kill artifacts, play green/red. If you want to kill planeswalkers, attack them. Word.

Take a second look at the Djinn -- it's 4 mana. (The colorless mana symbol was washed out in several printings of Arabian Nights; it's a common mistake.) If no one has other slivers, the cards are basically identical.

That doesn't really matter, though, since it was printed before the doubling-down on the Reserved List. While the last explanation I read from Wizards was fairly clear that Snow duals wouldn't be kosher, I think Legendary's up for debate.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mewens

Take a second look at the Djinn -- it's 4 mana. (The colorless mana symbol was washed out in several printings of Arabian Nights; it's a common mistake.) If no one has other slivers, the cards are basically identical.

That doesn't really matter, though, since it was printed before the doubling-down on the Reserved List. While the last explanation I read from Wizards was fairly clear that Snow duals wouldn't be kosher, I think Legendary's up for debate.

---

Oh derp. My bad. I completely missed that. Anyway, I guess I can agree now, though you do raise a good point with the dumbing down of the RL. I just think that WotC doesn't care about players as much as they do about not giving speculators anything to whine and cry about. Or at least, WotC/Hasbro legal doesn't.

I can agree that Legendary is perhaps less of a gray area than Snow duals under the new RL. I guess time will tell.

Sadly, even if they do print Legendary duals, I could see them coming in some crappy specialty limited run product, so that LGS and SCG and the like can jack up the price to insane levels.

Limited Run: Legendary Dual Lands, MSRP $39.99.

Lowest price from LGS: $400.

SCG Price: $600.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ankharlyn

Because before you couldn't play Jace, -1 him, then play another Jace, have the first go to the yard, and -1 the second one (and third and so on).

---

I have a feeling you are being serious about what your said there. Is this a noticeable improvement of application? No it isn't. Come one, that's eight fucking mana and a card.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ankharlyn

I disagree, shocklands are significantly different. They EtB tapped if you don't pay 2 life, which is a lot more difference in terms of mechanics than just having "legendary" sub type or whatever. Sure, legendary duals wouldn't work *quite* the same since you'd have to sac one if you put a second down, but I don't think legal would consider that enough of a difference to get around the functional reprint rules.

---

WotC has already showed that they don't fucking care at long as the card isn't exactly the same. I agree that the snow subtype could be debatable, but being legendary is a huge difference that is only made slightly less important because of the fetches.

Also yeah. So now blue has harder time answering the best planeswalker of the game? Good riddance. We may see some more Bolts, BBEs and shit i guess.