Bertoncini, back in business.

Considering that many of Bertoncini's past cheats involved dexterity, it seems unlikely that he could accidentally draw an extra card without realizing it. And, of course, having been asked how many cards were in his hand, it's pretty easy to count.

Having read the Reddit thread and heard from the judge in question that infractions aren't carried on past a given tournament, I don't feel that a past record of infractions is much of a tool for judges to detect cheating.

http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/com...me_play_error/

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Originally Posted by TraxDaMax

To give a better example of the hatred I posses for these type if losers, I have a story.
When I was in second grade, I lived in San Diego. Our elementary school had a yearly running event, that sponsored D.A.R.E. back in the day. The kid who got most laps done would always get a free ticket to Disneyland. When you're 7 years old, that is basicly winning a jackpot. Thing was though, this guy Tyler from my class had won it the previous year. Now I knew the guy, and I knew I could run farther, harder, faster, whatever then him. I also was suspicious that he could actually run faster then 6th graders. So my goal that year was to keep up with him.
But having such a large group of people on a runningtrack made it hard and I lost him. While I was running I tried to spot him so I could atleast try and keep up. But after a few rounds I finally found him. He had just had a mom place a stamp on his card (which every kid had to keep track of laps done), and he was slipping back in line at another mother to get another stamp. I told my teacher and she told me not tobe such a bad sport. So I got no support with my Sherlock Holmes skills. The guy won the event again.
The day after he came over and laughed at me in my face so O took a basketball and threw it in his face. I accepted my detention after I had broke his nose and moved on.

I felt no regrets, and if I catch someone doing it today, I'll do the same thing.


Verstuurd vanaf mijn GT-I9195 met Tapatalk

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Nice

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

So if I realize my opponent has 8 cards, but don't call it until after say, turn 2, technically I am the cheater?

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YES. Because you are intentionally ignoring an infractionf of the Tournament Rules in order to gain an advantage. From Section 4.8 of the IPG:

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Originally Posted by IPG

Definition
A person breaks a rule defined by the tournament documents, lies to a tournament official, or notices an offense committed in his or her (or a teammate's) match and does not call attention to it.
Additionally, the offense must meet the following criteria for it to be considered Cheating:
• The player must be attempting to gain advantage from his or her action.
• The player must be aware that he or she is doing something illegal.

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Emphasis mine.

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Originally Posted by Kap'n Cook

Taken from a recent shardless bug tournament report before it is buried by tons of posts:

"R9 vs esperdeathblade. One of Shardless Bug's best matchups. My opponent was Alex Bertoncini. He was very nice and pleasant to play against (and also was when I played near him in earlier rounds). I was anxious to win to try to top 8 but even more so because of an earlier round situation vs my friend at x-1. During that round, after drawing their opening hands, my friend asked how many cards Alex was holding. He responded 7. My friend asked him to count twice and 7 was the answer. Then my friend asked him to lay them flat and found 8 cards. The judges ruled it a warning and a forced mulligan. "

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The friend in question responded to the reddit thread here.

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I probably should take CJs hind site advice and not post, but I think this will clear it up a bit.
So I was standing behind my friend at the time when this happened.

Alex: "I'll keep" Friend: "How many cards do you have in hand?" Alex: "7"

He said it immediately without fanning through. Like CJ said, that's the default answer.

Friend then leans in to look closer and says "7?" I can't remember if Alex nodded or said yes here. Regardless, he didn't actually count his hand twice but agreed with 7 twice.

Friend: "Can you lay them out for me? I can't see. Oh look at that, 8. Judge!"

I play a lot of magic and I know that things like this can happen. (I've never had it happen to me but I mean, sleeves do stick.) Even standing right there I was unsure of it being an accident or not. If it wasn't Alex I don't think I'd consider it being anything other than an accident. It's hard not to consider his past when you see something like that happen.

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Alex B. has cheated before, but he's already been punished for that. The DCI doesn't assign penalties for being a bad person, only for violating rules. His penalties shouldn't get automatically upgraded just because of his history; otherwise, why would they bother taking him off suspension?

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Originally Posted by kc.hogan

The friend in question responded to the reddit thread here.


Alex B. has cheated before, but he's already been punished for that. The DCI doesn't assign penalties for being a bad person, only for violating rules. His penalties shouldn't get automatically upgraded just because of his history; otherwise, why would they bother taking him off suspension?

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Well, I think that's just rubbish. Someone being banned/disallowed to participate in competative (or any event involving PWP honestly), who keeps on trying to cheat should be disallowed if his acts continue to involve cheating.

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Originally Posted by Quasim0ff

Well, I think that's just rubbish. Someone being banned/disallowed to participate in competative (or any event involving PWP honestly), who keeps on trying to cheat should be disallowed if his acts continue to involve cheating.

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Of course someone who cheats in an event should get disqualified. It's even likely that they'll receive a suspension, but all of that is true regardless of a player's history.

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Originally Posted by kc.hogan

Of course someone who cheats in an event should get disqualified. It's even likely that they'll receive a suspension, but all of that is true regardless of a player's history.

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You said that, due to Alex already being punished one time for his crime, it shouldn't be taken into account again. I disagree wholeheartedly.

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Originally Posted by Quasim0ff

You said that, due to Alex already being punished one time for his crime, it shouldn't be taken into account again. I disagree wholeheartedly.

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kc.hogan is a judge, so he's speaking objectively from that perspective.

I do agree though that cheaters should be expunged from the community. Cheating is the worst crime you can commit in the context of this game, and it should merit the ultimate punishment of lifetime banning.

There should be a probation for such heavy cases of cheating like in Bertoncini's case - if they're catched cheating again, life-time ban. End of story. They're toxic for the game and they deserve neither pity nor mercy.

It's a joke that he can still go around and cheat like nothing's happened. That's just about as dumb as the case where a pedophile rapist was sent to kindergarden for community service. If this recent accident proofs anything, then that he's going to do it again.

And what's up with that pansy-ass punishments? If you draw too many cards, game loss, end of story. As long as the potential gain outweights the potential downside, cheating is going to be rampant in Magic as long as money is on the line.

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Originally Posted by Barook

There should be a probation for such heavy cases of cheating like in Bertoncini's case - if they're catched cheating again, life-time ban. End of story. They're toxic for the game and they deserve neither pity nor mercy.

It's a joke that he can still go around and cheat like nothing's happened. That's just about as dumb as the case where a pedophile rapist was sent to kindergarden for community service. If this recent accident proofs anything, then that he's going to do it again.

And what's up with that pansy-ass punishments? If you draw too many cards, game loss, end of story. As long as the potential gain outweights the potential downside, cheating is going to be rampant in Magic as long as money is on the line.

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If you draw too many cards INGAME, it's a gameloss.

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Originally Posted by Quasim0ff

If you draw too many cards INGAME, it's a gameloss.

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Sure, but why isn't it a gameloss at the beginning of the game? People should be expected to be able to count to 7.

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Originally Posted by Barook

Sure, but why isn't it a gameloss at the beginning of the game? People should be expected to be able to count to 7.

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Yeah, because miscounting is cheating too right?

I think we should let players judge each other for a round at Comp REL and see how many are not DQ'ed by each other for any possible reason.

There's a reason there are judges and players baying at the moon for blood here is an an excellent example of why.

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Originally Posted by HSCK

Yeah, because miscounting is cheating too right?

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If you draw too many cards, it is. It's hard to believe that people can mesmorize hundreds, if not thousands of cards, but aren't able to do grade school maths.

The difference between accidental mistakes and intentional cheating is a balancing act.

It's just inconsistent to judge the same thing in two different ways. Actually, it encourages cheating and being a total scumbag in one than more way - for one, the punishment is less harsh, but what if I notice that my opponent has one card too many and wait until R2 to go "Wait, how many cards do you actually have? JUDGE!" to give him a game loss this way? There's no way to proof that you noticed it before.

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Originally Posted by Barook

If you draw too many cards, it is. It's hard to believe that people can mesmorize hundreds, if not thousands of cards, but aren't able to do grade school maths.

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You know how I know you've never counted lists at a large event?

Most people would not believe how many players are really really good at Magic and really really bad at counting to 7, 15, 40 and 60.

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Originally Posted by ubernostrum

You know how I know you've never counted lists at a large event?

Most people would not believe how many players are really really good at Magic and really really bad at counting to 7, 15, 40 and 60.

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Are you judging this weekend?
What are your estimations on screwed up list this weekend?

Drawing too many cards at the beginning of the game is not a game loss because that would be an overly harsh penalty for someone who mulligans to 7 accidentally, a very common mistake. That said, there is a big difference between mulling to 7 and drawing 8. That, the (possible) lying about how many cards he had, and the prior history of cheating all would indicate that a harsher penalty is warranted in this case.

Rules need to reflect reality. The rules state that prior infractions and disciplinary action won't factor in the judge's decision, but in reality, a person's history of cheating should be taken into account because that's what you do in reality.

To me whatever happened recently is moot because I still think anything less than a lifetime ban for this kind of cheater is too lenient. This isn't like real life where people are rehabilitated (like federal 'rape your ass' prison in America or other programs) and there is a difference between cheating in a game that you choose to participate in compared to real life. The punishment given literally only meant that he couldn't cheat his way to more winnings for a while, essentially no negative consequences at all. He is just going to keep going to try and win as much money as possible until he is banned for life.

He chooses to do it because he wants to. Not being allowed to do what you want is a punishment.

This thread makes my face hurt.

I think everyone should stop to think about what he's getting banned from. This isn't a life sentence in prison sort of thing, it's the inability to play in sanctioned events for a card game. A lifetime ban doesn't stop him from playing EDH with his buddies or buying a booster box to draft with, it prevents him from winning money and prestige at competitive events. How is cheating multiple times and on camera not enough of a reason to ban someone for life for that? If you can't play by the rules when literally thousands of dollars are at stake, how can anyone justify him not getting a lifetime ban?

We're not exiling him to Antarctica or cutting off his hand, the penalty isn't even "stop playing magic altogether," although even if it were that seems fitting.