What are people's thoughts on the UB version of this deck, with the Intuition/Gifts kill?
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What are people's thoughts on the UB version of this deck, with the Intuition/Gifts kill?
Can I put that in my sig?Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
Of course. Honesty should be shared.
Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
Sweet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
is this the list you are talking about? They defiantly are not the same deck. I've also never liked discard vs counter spells, i.e. thought seize vs spell pierce. Also I'm not sure what gifts is doing in this deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnziD
Creatures (4)
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Griselbrand
Lands (21)
3 Island
2 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Underground Sea
Spells (35)
4 Omniscience
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Gifts Ungiven
3 Intuition
3 Duress
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Show and Tell
3 Thoughtseize
Sideboard
2 Defense Grid
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Swan Song
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Swamp
Played against my buddies merfolk deck the other night winning two out of three matches (5-2). The games were fun, though if the deck didnt hit business I would soon succumb to island-walk. As a new player to this deck some of my opening hands were questionable probably not to a skilled pilot though. For example; a hand with sneak, petal, petal, creature, island and brainstorm? The obvious perile is being brainstorm locked, how well does this deck mull? It seemed that sneak attack was far superior to snt sinc the +1s of the lords were certaintly relevant, on the other hand a quick snt into emrakul usually sealed the deal. Overall I was really impressed on how with the right hands the deck felt nearly invincible, allowing me to wait till I had counter back up before playing my business. Sometimes hands with fetches and cantrips felt ok and often got me there...is this strategy in general agreement or did I just get lucky. I understand depending on who ones opponent is determines the decision making. Which decks does grisel out-shine emmy and vice versa?
(a hand with sneak, petal, petal, creature, island and brainstorm)
This is a really good hand that I would definitely keep. We don't mulligan well, the only cards I auto mull are:
No lands
All counters and lands
All counters, fatty and lands
I think the other combinations are keepable, this deck takes balls sometimes you take risks then you get immensely rewarded.
@Secret
That quote is epic lol I wanna put it in my sig as well, but I'm not sure why I can't find the place for an avatar and a signature.
29th at the Open in ATL this week, went 6-2-1 after ID'ing the last round.
MB:
51 Staples
2 Misdirection
3 Preordain
1 Gitaxian Probe
3 Spell Pierce
SB:
2 Through the Breach
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Swan Song
3 Pyroclasm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Echoing Truth
Matchups:
R1: 2-0 vs. MUD w/ Welder
R2: 0-2 vs. RUG (Stephen Mann)
R3: 2-0 vs. High Tide
R4: 0-2 vs. Merfolk
R5: 2-1 vs. Elves
R6: 2-1 vs. Merfolk
R7: 2-0 vs. Sneak and Show
R8: 2-1 vs. Miracles
R9: 0-0-3 vs. Sneak and Show
Some notes:
Preordain was real. While preparing for the tournament I had a huge debate between running Probe or Preordain. On one hand, a lot of lists were doing well with Probe. On the other hand, my results were extremely poor and I was very unsatisfied. I locked in with the 3/1 split based on my testing and an overwhelmingly overwhelming amount of the time (like 9 out of 10 times) I was glad I had Preordain instead of Probe. The thing I find most attractive about this deck is that it really functions in two modes - either it goes off on turn 2 with a probability of failing, or it goes off a few turn later (t5 at the latest) almost certainly. Going off early is largely dependent on the draw, as you'll only get to play one cantrip at most. Going off later in the game requires a lot of sculpting, and Preordain provides substantially more of this than Probe. Postboard Preordain is also more helpful to dig for answers, etc.
Flusterstorm was absolute ass. I won't be playing this again, and instead will most likely replace it with another REB.
Leyline of Sanctity was not boarded at all, but I still think its necessary for matchups like Jund and Storm.
Pyroclasm came in against Merfolk, Elves, and Miracles. I only felt confident about bringing it in vs. Elves. Against Merfolk I had too many cards to take out, like Pierce (do I take this out?) and Misdirection, so I brought in Pyroclasms. Against Miracles, I was very worried about Mages and other bears, and despite not seeing any, I couldn't afford to take the risk.
Cage was only good against Elves, but it was phenomenal in stopping a Therapy from flashing back and taking both my in-hand Show and Tells.
Moving forward:
I'm going to test out a 2/2 split between Probe and Preordain. Additionally I will experiment with a 2nd Probe as the 61st card. With Preordains, I'm going to try and change the manabase up a little, switching out an Ancient Tomb for the 4th Misty, since I usually lose the hands where I open with double sol lands. And lastly, Defense Grids is definitely going to be in the board to help with the Delver and Miracles matchups.
Comments/questions?
Congrats on making Top 32 and thanks for sharing your thoughts.
I haven't seen a Miracles list with Meddling Mage so far. The only creatures they run are Snapcaster Mage, Vendilion Clique, Angel tokens and sometimes Stoneforge Mystic. Pyroclasm is not worth bringing in against them.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnziD
Hi all,
I am new to this forum, however not new to Sneak and Show. I have been playing the deck for just over 2 years now and have tinkered with other decks but found myself coming back to SnS anytime I needed a reliable deck for a tourney. I don't really get to make it to major tourneys, but do play quite often locally in a pretty diverse meta. Like many others, I too have found Probes to be a little underwhelming. The information is useful, but most of the time I can get a sense of what my opponent has in hand based on how they play, so it usually just confirms my suspicions. I have been playtesting the deck with a black splash (2 Thoughtseizes and 2 Inquisitions in place of 4 Probes) and have found it to be quite useful. I get the same information as I did from Probes in seeing my opponents hand, I strip my opponent of a card rather than cantrip myself (and this deck is very good at rebuilding itself), but more so it has given me access to Dread of Night out of the sideboard, which is exceptional against D&T - an otherwise difficult match up even post-board. I know there have been other SnS decks that splashed black in the past, but with the rise of D&T I think it might be the right time to make the switch. The drawback, of course, is the mana base. I currently run 2 underground seas, 2 islands, 2 volcanic islands and 1 mountain, but am considering changing one of the seas to a badlands as there have been times I ended up short on red mana if I fetched for a sea on turns 1 or 2.
Let me know what you guys think!
That's fair. The Miracles player I usually watch/talk to uses a couple and I kind of based my experience off that. Probably should have looked at the GP lists a bit more closely instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by JPA
Manabase of this deck has a weakness against Wasteland; I don't want to loose because I had not the red mana to cast Sneak Attack. JPA (if that's him, I don't remember) suggested to play Sulfur Elemental. That's the better choice in our colors if we want to destroy D&T's creatures. But I tested this one. And I go back the third Pyroclasm instead because Meddling Mage of UWR decks must be destroyed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Z-Nubs
Playing Duress-like cards make non-tempo effect in this deck (this is a tempo-combo deck, no?). I know some kind of cards are very difficult to beat, but those discard cards aren't good if we're on the draw. Those cards are good against control decks, and playing only a playset of this is not effective because those decks have Spell Pierce and Brainstorm to beat against our discard. If I play discard cards, I want to play more in sideboard. However, we don't have more place in sideboard to have discard in it. I think discard isn't good against BUG decks who also plays Thoughtseize and Hymn to Tourach against us. What do you want to discard on BUG, RUG and UWR which can't be countered in the pre-side game? I'm very interessed by your response to understand your choice :wink:
I'm testing Sensei's Divining Top instead of 2 Gitaxian Probe at the moment. This card really change our plays and I'm very happy when I've it on the board. That's a ponder-like effect on each turns. I know, this is a non-blue card, that's the reason I play only 1 Misdirection and 1 Intuition. It really change post-side mirror games when opponent plays Ponder, Preordain and Brainstorm to have counterspells and the combo, we do the same at the end of turn. And it's a huge card against BUG decks. But that's making more slowly games and this isn't philosophy of this deck. So, I continue testing and searching for a card who do the same effect.
Sorry for the approximative english, I'm French, and this is one of my first post in english.
Sorry - It's atypical which is why it works so well for me. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by AnziD
How do you know when it's time to go back to Daze/Preordain lists over the Probe/Inutition list?
Right now I'm at for my flex spots:
3 Daze
3 Preordain
2 Spell Pierce
1 ??? (Either Misdirection or any of the other 3)
Maybe it's just because of what's in the meta where I want the heavier counter number, but it feels like probe is just a card i rarely want to see unless I'm comboing off, which sucks because I want the cantrip as early as possible in order to actually get the combo. Or am I just completely misplaying it? I'm preferring preordain because it allows more manipulation, but at the same time I'm torn because it isn't "free" so I can't both play it and a ponder to start the game. As for intution, it's nice but I just don't feel right playing it.
My current board is (For the Daze/Preordain list):
2 Through the Breach
1 Ashen Rider
3 Blood Moon
2 Pyroclasm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Divert
2 Flusterstorm
1 Wipe Away
The only change in the board from the Probe/Intution list is that the divert and 1 flusterstorm are taken out for 3 defense grids, allowing me to board out a handful of counters and force opponents to either counter that immediately, or play around it. Still, I just feel like I have the most success when I have access to Daze as additional counters.
Maybe I'll go with the top as is mentioned above, it is reusable and not something decks will fight over. The instant speed helps give us something to do during excess mana during non-combo turns.
That would put the 9 slots for me as:
2 Spell Pierce
2 Top
2 Preordain
3 Daze
Now I need to figure out how I want to handle the boarding in/out with the daze route. Is it still right to board it out on the draw like delver decks do when facing delver? Or do we want to keep it in because we need as many counters as we can against them?
Personally, I have never found Flusterstorm to be helpful at all. It's at its best against storm, but even then a good player will strip it from your hand before they go off. I would much rather have Swan Song or REB/Pyroblast in its place. Also, I do not like daze as it sets you back a turn, which forces you to only be able to use it the turn you go off (and games 2 or 3 that will usually be a couple turns later than game 1). Most decks are bringing in more hate for us then we are for them, and they will be sure to play around dazes/spell pierce, so the longer the game goes, Daze just gets significantly worse. I do agree with you that the probes were not doing it for me, which is why I ended up splashing black for those 4 slots to bring in Thoughtseize and Inquisitions (see my previous post). Here is what I have learned since splashing black: definitely need to go up to 20 lands if you normally play 19 and Massacre is a beast out of the sideboard (it kills D&T, wipes away stoneforge's, delvers, meddling mage) - simply fetch up an underground sea, thoughtseize them, then massacre them and by that time you are usually free to combo off).Quote:
Originally Posted by Nocley
i haven't tried Tops maindeck yet, but I am going to run 2 of them at my next tourney to see how they are. Others have had success with it and it would probably help stabilize my mana base.
I strongly disagree with another splash for black. Sure the thoughtseize is nice, but I still think our best answer to the Delver matchups is just get Blood Moon postboard. By splashing black we make their wastelands turn on even more, as well as making it harder to play bloon moon (though the second is arguable because thoughtseize t1 -> blood moon t2/3 is a much better line than the other way around).
As for Daze, I don't think it's something that slows us down, it's a card that should be used as free counters during the counter war to get our combo off.
Flusterstorm vs Swan Song/Blast - I like flusterstorm a lot more because I see decks like Elves and Storm much more than fair decks where I want more counters. As for saying Storm will strip it out...won't they do that for any counter anyways? Maybe that is a playstyle preference, but I much prefer Flusterstorm right now.
The addition of tops has made me want even more shuffle effects too, but that's something we definitely dont have the slots for.
Yes, but I think Z-Nubs prefers REB and Swan Song over Flusterstorm because of their versatility.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nocley
When I play against combo, since they run a fair amount of discard and are quicker than us, I tend to use my spell pierces and rebs on their cantrips. For instance, turn 1 ponder or turn 2 brainstorm when they have a fetch up or haven't played a land yet.
As a side note, I noticed most of the time if they cabal therapy you blind, they tend to name show and tell or force or even spell pierce if you have mana open, so if that's not your primary way of beating them at the moment, use that knowledge to blank the first therapy. Also, this goes without saying but they may name brainstorm blind on therapy if they have multiple discard spells because in my experience I tend to keep looser hands if there are multiple cantrips.
I feel like my post went all over the place, but just random knowledge I've noticed over the last few months of crushing with this deck.
So whatever I said earlier? Daze is really good in this deck. I don't think I can go back to without it. Got t8 in the legacy open today, lost to Omni-Tell and then Death and Taxes in the quarterfinals. Report will be up within a few days.
How was SDT for you? I see that you ran 2 of them. Are you going to up the count of Daze or is three the number you think is optimal. I admit, Westcoast seems to produce a lot more combo, so I think flusterstorm is a better choice right now as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nocley