Chinese fakes

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Originally Posted by ramanujan

A simple response to your simple question. Use proxies. How many money no proxy tournaments do you attend anyway. The community, as far as I know, could care less if you play casually using proxies (the obvious proxies). You were blatently dismissing the issue of collectibility so that you could point out a problem you are having with having cards to play with. I have 3 words, collectible card game. You may not like it. It may get under your skin. It may even prevent you from playing the deck you want to at a big tournament... but it is a collectible card game.

Another silly point to make. Wizards (or Hasbro, if you like) prints Magic cards. Everyone else prints fakes. Too many people here are treating the two as if they are identical. One has a place in our community. The other is illegal (if done within the US). This isn't prohibition. During the 20s, illegal booze was still booze. This is more akin to fake jewelry. Unfortunately, due to the cohort represented here I doubt that fake jewelry matters too much. When you get married, if you choose to buy jewelry, you expect authenticity. When I buy magic cards, I expect the same level of authenticity.

My opinion is that everyone here should as well. It is a slippery slope if we, as a community, waiver on this.

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I don't want fakes, but I acknowledge they exist solely because there is a demand for it. The supplier (Wizards) has ignored that demand. I have to imagine Wizards was smart enough to have seen this day coming, yet they did nothing substantial until M15. Strange.

Also, if the Wizards version of Liliana of the Veil and alibaba's version of Liliana of the Veil are 100% identical (I understand they're currently not, but in time, I think it's safe to assume they'll be indistinguishable from each other), what makes one authentic and the other not? What if I gave you the alibaba version, but told you it was ripped from a pack. How do you authenticate it?

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Originally Posted by ramanujan

A simple response to your simple question. Use proxies.

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Proxies are not allowed at tournaments. Sayin "play with proxies" is an equivalent to "get out of our format".

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Originally Posted by ramanujan

How many money no proxy tournaments do you attend anyway.

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Sorry, but I got only PhD. I don't understand this sentence.

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Originally Posted by ramanujan

The community, as far as I know, could care less if you play casually using proxies (the obvious proxies).

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All casual MtG debiliated into EDH. No thanks.

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Originally Posted by ramanujan

You were blatently dismissing the issue of collectibility so that you could point out a problem you are having with having cards to play with.

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Yes, that's what people do when they want to discuss some aspect of game: they discuss the particular aspect and set aside the other aspects.
Btw, it seems to me that you're blatently dismissing the issue of gaming so that you could point out a problem you are having with having cards to caress with.

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Originally Posted by ramanujan

I have 3 words, collectible card game. You may not like it. It may get under your skin. It may even prevent you from playing the deck you want to at a big tournament... but it is a collectible card game.

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Then lets collect, collect.
I don't know what would be so bad if 7th Edition or M12 or FTV:WTF brought back duals/fetches/Cosmic Horror, how exactly it would improve/worsen the situation of collectors that collect duals/fetches/Cosmic Horrors, except that it would make them available for the players, who are, you know, the third pillar of MtG community.
Do you really think that those are the collectors who buy the Chinese fakes? Of course not. Players buy them, because they want to play the game but not for the cost of kidney. Is it right? Is it wrong? In the weird, immoral and otherwise perverse world of cardboard crack, I can't even tell. I just know that there's that something something supply demand law. WotC don't print chea cards although people want them? Soemeone else will start the printing.

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Originally Posted by ramanujan

Another silly point to make. Wizards (or Hasbro, if you like) prints Magic cards. Everyone else prints fakes.

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Yes. Quite obvious.

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Originally Posted by ramanujan

Too many people here are treating the two as if they are identical.

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That's human nature, moreover for gaming purposes they are the same - it's not like your beta foil dual taps for a different mana then an MWS dual or even a piece of paper with "Scrubs Land" written on it. This isn't prohibition. During the 20s, illegal booze was still booze and illegal dual still adds eithe :b: or :w: to your pool; this isn't fake jewelry. Instead of fighting the human nature they should have not listen to the hoarders and wannabe-stockmarketheroes and simply print the needed stuff like there's no tomorrow. Would anybody fake cheap cards? I guess not. Would it kill the collectability of game? I guess not.

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Originally Posted by ramanujan

When you get married, if you choose to buy jewelry, you expect authenticity. When I buy magic cards, I expect the same level of authenticity.

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Sadly the authenticity cannot be warranted anymore. Haven't you heard of those fake Chinese cards? There's even a thread on Source. Some ppl even argue that the RL and similar WotC's policies that should have protect the collectors not only failed, but were a part of the trouble.

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Originally Posted by ramanujan

My opinion is that everyone here should as well. It is a slippery slope if we, as a community, waiver on this.

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Lets your community do whatever it wishes to.

This isn't as cut and dry as many people are making it out to be, nor is it necessarily an issue of morality as many people are framing it (it's actually more of a utilitarian issue). At the end of the day, the people responsible are not necessarily the counterfeiters, because they are merely providing a service for which extensive demand exists; rather, the people responsible are members of the community who are fed up with the price bubble, and who are willing to risk commissioning fake cards in order to play the game. Make no mistake, this is pure economics in action; there is no product that only ever increases in value, and investors in this game have had it far too good for far too long. The reserve list artificially inflated the price of the duals far beyond the average consumer's price range, and whilst those people don't have the right to consume products without paying for them, investors shouldn't have the right of a completely risk-free investment, which is essentially what buying legacy staples was. It was a goose laying golden eggs, and thanks to the reprint policy, it not only kept giving to those fortunate enough to have bought in at earlier stages of the game, it also severely punished newer players.

The way I see it, the collectible value of verifiable originals hasn't been affected in any way, though I would certainly go out and have them appraised, verified, and documented now before the dam breaks, and fakes become virtually undetectable. For the foreseeable future, people still need legitimate copies to play in tournaments, and having some means of independently validating the authenticity of your cards will probably be important moving forward. Not only that, but the number of originals isn't going to change, and those cards will still have value to collectors in a sea of fakes, so as long as the article in question can easily be verified as an original (hence validating your cards now), you should be fine. If this is seriously a concern for you, be proactive and find some means of doing this, because by the time the fakes are virtually indistinguishable, it will be too late. Protect your investment, and the prices for some of these cards may even go up if the relative scarcity of verifiable originals increases. They will still hold value by virtue of their status as originals, and will thus still be highly collectible.

As for whether or not this will kill the game, I'm sceptical. Other hobbies have dealt with counterfeits for years, and they don't all have a game to fall back on. In fact, this may allow magic to become far more popular than it ever would have otherwise. That said, in the short term, it will certainly hit markets that have thus far been almost entirely risk-free. This actually marks the transition of control over the game away from WotC, and towards players, and there are several silver linings to this, some of which have already been mentioned:

1) Lower barrier to entry increasing participation across all formats. Even if the fakes aren't widespread, panic selling of cards will drop prices initially, and allow newer players into modern and legacy. For the time being, it seems that the fakes aren't hugely widespread, and even if they were, the market will equalise eventually. There will come a point at which demand for the cards levels off, and at this stage, supply will stop entering the market, and prices should stabilise. This is essentially a market correction, though the correct market price for these goods is anyone's guess.

2) More avenues for player-driven creativity. We're going to see some awesome proxies and alters come out of this, and even better, we're going to see player-created sets and cubes. This is a good thing, as it will allow us to experience the game in new ways, and there could even be quite a bit of player-driven innovation in terms of game mechanics and formats. This is a huge opportunity akin to the explosion of mods in computer gaming back in the late 90s and early 2000s. Given how cheap it is, anyone could feasibly upload images for their custom set, and people can have it printed and sent to their doorstep within two weeks. Booze cube? That's not even the tip of the iceberg.

3) Opportunities for new industries, and the strengthening of existing ones. There is now a real need for reliable fake detection, meaning that people with those skills will be in demand. In addition to this, some kind of interface between Wizards and this industry will likely need to be established, so there are probably a few opportunities there.

4) If the number of people getting into the non-rotating formats is high enough, a new market will be created for the original cards. I.e. people will play the game and covet an original force of will or dual land, and players who were smart and verified their investments before the advent of perfect fakes will likely be in possession of a highly sought after commodity.

In any case, this is now a fact of life that we have to live with, for better or worse. I can't say I'm unhappy that things have finally come to a head, because a lot of issues with the game and its business model have been forced out into the open. Some of you will lose money, but I'm not particularly sympathetic to your cause. I want people to play against, and having members of the community treating their pieces of wizard-paper like the NYSE was always one of the scummiest aspects of this game. Now that Wizards is forced to stop holding your dicks at the urinal, we may finally get a few more players coming through, even if they have to start slowly, and make their way into the community by playing fakes at the kitchen table.

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Originally Posted by PirateKing

The course to which this discussion has shifted is fascinating. Perhaps it is shortsighted of me, but the game has always been just that, and never treated any higher by me. A game that is fun. That's what got me to play all those years back, what brought be to Legacy, what keeps me here. It would appear as though I am a minority in this, or at best among some silent majority. But for those calling quits and cashing out while the cashing is good, why really were you ever here? Is somehow that the game pieces used are no longer valued at the same amount detract from the game being played? Can it really be so foreign to love Legacy for the scale of play, regardless of whatever background monetary incentive arise? I'm all set post nuclear holocaust to play by candlelight, knowing full well I could never barter any amount of dual lands for food and water. Because, and I honestly believe this, that is not the point.
I am prepared to stand by and watch all cards drop in value to stock material prices and say money well spent. Was it a lot of money? You know it. But what did it get me? Years of enjoyment. And nothing currently occurring has any chance of stopping years to come. And really, am I that alone in feeling this way? Were all of my peers playing a different game entirely?

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My cards have two different kinds of value, a dollar value and value as a piece in a game. If one or the other was going down, I would probably keep. I mean if I thought the Legacy game was still going to be healthy moving forward but the value of my cards would go down I wouldn't sell. If I thought Legacy was going to taper off but the market wasn't going to come to a head at some point in the next few years I'd also keep as I'm quite fond of my cards. The way I see it though within the next 2-3 years there is going to be an influx of fakes and that is going to cause the quick demise of Legacy as a real format and make it hard as shit to sell cards (and MTG players overall seems overjoyed by this for some reason?). Why the fuck would I want to be left holding that bag? Also I've been here since before Legacy was a format back when we used to sling Drains and Workshops. Was I ever really here, lol who are you?

I tried to buy some fake cards and 2 of the sellers answered me today and said that they´re stores got shut down from the police and/or that they stand under watching eyes from the goverment and so on!
So I think that wizards/hasbro will had took legal actions against those wholesalers in China. Otherwise I cant understand such status...

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Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes

My cards have two different kinds of value, a dollar value and value as a piece in a game. If one or the other was going down, I would probably keep. I mean if I thought the Legacy game was still going to be healthy moving forward but the value of my cards would go down I wouldn't sell. If I thought Legacy was going to taper off but the market wasn't going to come to a head at some point in the next few years I'd also keep as I'm quite fond of my cards. The way I see it though within the next 2-3 years there is going to be an influx of fakes and that is going to cause the quick demise of Legacy as a real format and make it hard as shit to sell cards (and MTG players overall seems overjoyed by this for some reason?). Why the fuck would I want to be left holding that bag?

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Pretty much this...

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Originally Posted by Illusions

In any case, this is now a fact of life that we have to live with, for better or worse. I can't say I'm unhappy that things have finally come to a head, because a lot of issues with the game and its business model have been forced out into the open. Some of you will lose money, but I'm not particularly sympathetic to your cause. I want people to play against, and having members of the community treating their pieces of wizard-paper like the NYSE was always one of the scummiest aspects of this game. Now that Wizards is forced to stop holding your dicks at the urinal, we may finally get a few more players coming through, even if they have to start slowly, and make their way into the community by playing fakes at the kitchen table.

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...and also this.

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

If you're living at home and not paying for many/any household bills, then you have far more disposable income then the vast majority of adults (that, you know, don't live with mommy and daddy). And if you don't have a girlfriend, then that ups your disposable income even more. So... if you're a single guy that lives at home with his parents, you can afford to play Legacy. Got it.

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You seem bugged with my situation. I got the solution, go buy some BB goodies. :)

demmand does not and probably should not affect product that is out of print. My opinion of Wizards strategy is this. They are trying to discover and print new mechanics, cards, flavor, ect for the betterment of thier bottom line, the player base, and the stores/retailers/distributers. I don't thing it would be a good long term strategy to put too much focus within the in print product on cards that have already had thier time.

I have been saying this for well over 5 years, but I will say it again. The future of this game is based on the new future cards, not the old ones collecting dust (accruing value) in binders. Every year I see new faces with thier head on backwards, thinking that magic is about dual lands or power or fetchlands, ect.. Look at the cards of legacy. Most of the old cards are the gas. They put crap in to play for u2, they give dual color access, they counter crap on t1. The game is often decided by the new stuff, delver, stonforge, emrakul, ect. I would much rather have wizards give me more of those type of cards, adding more depth to the game, then have them rehash plain jane overpowered cards like tundra, wasteland, or FOW.

Return to Ravnica was all about the shocks. They did what everyone wanted and reprinted expensive cards en masse. They made those reprints the reason why to open packs. Personally, I thought it was one of the most boring blocks in recent memory.

As to your question. I am not ignorant to the fact that fakes can be made that are identical according to even the experts. I won't tell you that I know the difference, because I obviously wouldn't. Perhapse there wouldn't even be one. They would still be fakes. My point is that we, as a community, should not support this type of behaviour. I am a big fan of the holo thingy as it makes the faking process that more difficult. If we don't show monetary support. IE only buy from B&M and only trade with people who do the same, this will be a non-issue. I know that may never happen, but I subscribe to the philosphy that the world is what you make it. That is why I do exactly what I suggested and probably always will.

peace.

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Originally Posted by r3dd09

You seem bugged with my situation. I got the solution, go buy some BB goodies. :)

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Your attitude of "poor losers, get a job to play Legacy!" doesn't make sense when your own situation (living for free with mommy and daddy) allows you to circumvent the financial realities of adulthood.

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Originally Posted by Manipulato

I tried to buy some fake cards and 2 of the sellers answered me today and said that they´re stores got shut down from the police and/or that they stand under watching eyes from the goverment and so on!
So I think that wizards/hasbro will had took legal actions against those wholesalers in China. Otherwise I cant understand such status...

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I can assure you the printers in China are running strong. If Apple and Prada can't stop China I seriously doubt WotC holds sway. You are talking about distribution which are basically the people who buy bulk from the printers (who only sell in serious bulk) and piece those cards out to buyers. Up until now 99% of this has been going to shady people trying to pass off fakes as real which is a whole different problem but is to be expected from time to time. Now that every little kid is hungry for fake cards and that is a known fact you can expect the momentum to slowly but surely build up until there is somewhat reliable sources to get fake shit out to people who are willing to pay $5 a piece for hackey U Seas. Before we were all working under the impression that regular MTG players were avoiding fake cards but now the wool has been pulled back. When people were trying to pass this shit off as real they had to play careful, you can't sell 50 dual lands a week and not have someone notice which is why the market isn't saturated with this shit already. Now that people know they can just be like, "Yeah shit is fake $6 please." and people will buy it it's going to be a real game changer (literally). Also fuck you for being a part of this.

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Originally Posted by ramanujan

demmand does not and probably should not affect product that is out of print.

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:cry:
I'm afraid that something something supply demand says otherwise.

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My opinion of Wizards strategy is this. They are trying to discover and print new mechanics, cards, flavor, ect for the betterment of thier bottom line, the player base, and the stores/retailers/distributers. I don't thing it would be a good long term strategy to put too much focus within the in print product on cards that have already had thier time.

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Yeah, but there are ppl who want to play with the old cards, but can't afford them. WotC were showing them finger for over a decade and now the situation escalated into printhouses forming a belt all over from Culcutta to Beijing daily vomiting millions of fake cards 24/7 in three-shift operation, no Christmas holiday.

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I have been saying this for well over 5 years, but I will say it again. The future of this game is based on the new future cards, not the old ones collecting dust (accruing value) in binders.

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The future of this game is based on what the people want.

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Every year I see new faces with thier head on backwards, thinking that magic is about dual lands or power or fetchlands, ect.. Look at the cards of legacy. Most of the old cards are the gas. They put crap in to play for u2, they give dual color access, they counter crap on t1. The game is often decided by the new stuff, delver, stonforge, emrakul, ect. I would much rather have wizards give me more of those type of cards, adding more depth to the game, then have them rehash plain jane overpowered cards like tundra, wasteland, or FOW.

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So your trouble is that ppl play the cards they like to play? Oh so...

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I know that may never happen, but I subscribe to the philosphy that the world is what you make it. That is why I do exactly what I suggested and probably always will.

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The world I'll make is a world where there will be no trouble with fakes. No Magic = no fakes.

If the fakes get to the point where they're 100% indistinguishable from the real thing, then what? How does one authenticate a non-holostamp card?

Cards being expensive is not a defense for buying fakes. Knowingly playing fake cards in a tournament is against the rules. It is your choice to violate the rules of the tournament, but I will never accept it. I will call anyone out for breaking tournament rules. I guess I will need to look closer at my opponents cards to ensure he is actually playing Magic. I just remembered my favorite quote about arguing with idiots. For that reason I think I am done with this thread. I have said what I have to say.

Enjoy trying to defend breaking tournament rules to a judge.

May be WOTC should start printing and sell cheap proxys not legal for tournaments (singles and sets), for young people to start gaming, or for users to build theirs testing decks or cube drafts sets. Business oportunity!

(Or may this website) xD

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

Your attitude of "poor losers, get a job to play Legacy!" doesn't make sense when your own situation (living for free with mommy and daddy) allows you to circumvent the financial realities of adulthood.

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Where did I say "poor losers, get a job to play legacy!"? I'm saying spend less and save more.
I also don't live at home for free, for the record.

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Originally Posted by ramanujan

Cards being expensive is not a defense for buying fakes.

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I'm not defending fakes. In fact I dislike them. But I see that they're printed only because of economics laws; and even those laws I do not defedn, becasue they defend themselves. It's like fighting the gravity.

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Knowingly playing fake cards in a tournament is against the rules.

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Thanks, I never knew that. /sarcasm

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It is your choice to violate the rules of the tournament, but I will never accept it. I will call anyone out for breaking tournament rules.

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What a novelty, I do this everytime anybody breaks the rules.

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I guess I will need to look closer at my opponents cards to ensure he is actually playing Magic.

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No Magic = no fakes.

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I just remembered my favorite quote about arguing with idiots. For that reason I think I am done with this thread. I have said what I have to say.

Enjoy trying to defend breaking tournament rules to a judge.

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Dude, I think you should follow this link: http://piv.pivpiv.dk/

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Originally Posted by r3dd09

Where did I say "poor losers, get a job to play legacy!"? I'm saying spend less and save more.
I also don't live at home for free, for the record.

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You agreed with this post (bolded mine):

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Originally Posted by warai

I'm actually quite sick of the argument legacy is to expensive to play. Just get a job, don't go out every weekend,
go to less restaurants and save money.

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And then you went on to state how you don't go out and party, you play the same 1-2 video games and that you live at home. The "live at home" part is where I took exception because rent + utilities will take up the lion's share of a person's income. You do not have that financial burden to bear, so you're able to spend that money on stuff like Magic. I don't understand where you get off telling people to get a job, stop going out to eat with friends, etc when you're living at home with mommy and daddy. We could ALL save more money if we lived at home like a child. But we're, you know, adults. Adults shouldn't be sponging off mommy and daddy unless they absolutely have no other choice.

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

Your attitude of "poor losers, get a job to play Legacy!" doesn't make sense when your own situation (living for free with mommy and daddy) allows you to circumvent the financial realities of adulthood.

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Man, why are you focusing on this. I didn't feel like that's how he meant it. And the entry barrier of Legacy is I think a bit exaggerated. I am married, single income household, mediocre salary and yet still building towards Vintage. Legacy takes a couple years and Vintage takes a couple years more if you are not doing too badly or if you're not a student. I think that's one of the nice things about Legacy. When you spend time and effort to get into this format you come to love and appreciate it more, you grow up within the game and become a part of the community. It gives sentimental value to your decks and to the history you had with the format. I think it is quite valuable. /derail

With all the comments on the "high cost to play legacy," I think it's important to note that the actual cost to play legacy is much lower than the implied cost, which is the cost to play legacy only with netdecks or decks with a high scg open finish on the hopes of winning a tournament. I think the same hypercompetitive nerd-culture that makes buying illegal counterfeit mechandise from a shady online dealer even a consideration is the same that demands an expensive deck to play.


Also, before you say it, yes, I will go enjoy playing a deck with 25 mountains and 35 variations of hill giant at my local tournament.

Just an fyi:

I had a chat with that listed vendor on Alibaba (my wife and I speak Chinese) and he's already pulling out of this. He was receiving hundreds (almost thousands) of complaints and foul messages daily and he doesn't even know what this game is. These guys create poker cards and just received an order for MTG on a whim, then decided to give it a whirl. They're not even confident in the quality of their fakes (the pics on ebay may look convincing but the final result isn't once you inspect it). They're not (currently) interested in creating perfect fakes, it was just another item to print run and they really don't even know what this game is.

Take that however you want.

EDIT:

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Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer

Yeah, but there are ppl who want to play with the old cards, but can't afford them. WotC were showing them finger for over a decade and now the situation escalated into printhouses forming a belt all over from Culcutta to Beijing daily vomiting millions of fake cards 24/7 in three-shift operation, no Christmas holiday.

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That's actually far from true. These guys take hour long naps around lunch time and barely devote a fraction of their operation to magic at the moment. And you bet your ass production on the mtg front slows down when Chinese New Year rolls around the corner.