Have you been bringing in Wolf Run in matchups other than Miracles?
Printable View
Have you been bringing in Wolf Run in matchups other than Miracles?
My Current AzBan Wish List for SCG Mpls (and possible GP New Jersey)
Creatures (14)
4 Veteran Explorer (possibly cut one for another fattie)
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Eternal Witness
2 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Thragtusk
Spells (25)
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Thoughtseize (moved to main to get extraction effects in board)
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Maelstrom Pulse (possibly change to a Council's judgement)
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Batterskull
3 Living Wish
1 Golgari Charm (or Toxic Deluge)
Land (22)
3 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Savannah
3 Bayou
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Karakas
Sideboard/Wishboard
2 Tsunami (miracles/delver/shardless)
2 Mindbreak Trap (storm)
1 Cranial Extraction (combo/miracles)
1 Memorcide (combo/miracles)
1 Humility
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Wasteland
1 Ashen Rider
1 Fleshbag Maruader
1 Vampire Hexmage (aka the Jace Killer)
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Phyrexian Revoker
Pretty close to what I've had it for months now. (Other then Stoneforge build I had)
Last local event I went 4-1 and split. Beating Miracles twice, D+T, Reanimator. Lost to mono-red Sneak Attack.
I honestly can't get behind 4 Vets and 3 GSZ... The latter is by far the better card.
Im gonna agree with switching the split on those two an extra gsz may as well be another bomb plus still serving as ramp and utility.
As for the board it seems stuffed with 4 mana reactive spells even though I love a good tsunami that plus the extraction effects really seems like a huge mana investment out of the board cheaper answers could prove worth exploring. Most glaring being the mindbreak traps i dont think the card is good enough and i could see another teeg plus somethong else taking their place.
So, everyone is jumping on the Abzan train. I really like this deck. It has game against almost everything that plays fair. Full of motivation, I began testing various Abzan-Fit-Lists until it hit me again for the very same reason I abandoned this deck in the past. You cannot win against Combo. This deck is a bye for any decent Storm Pilot. If you think squeezing Mindbreak Traps in the board will save you, your wrong. I play Storm myself, I know alot people that also play Storm. If you want a chance playing GWB, you need to pack Thalia at least or you are dead. Fact.
A few posts before, Arianrhod analyzed the upcoming metagame:
If this prediction holds true, I would never touch Abzan for the GP, since at least High Tide and Fast Combo will ruin your day. I don't think people will start realizing how good fast combo is, AFTER the GP. In my opinion, if you want to have success at a GP, you need to play a deck that has game against almost everything. If you just want to have fun, you can play what you want, of course.Quote:
upswing:
RUG Delver, fast combo (TES, ANT, Belcher, etc)
Burn, UR Delver
High Tide
holding position:
Mirakuru
BUG/UWR Delver
u/x.dec (stoneblade holdouts, shardless [both types], etc)
downturn:
Sneak, Elves
graveyard strategies
Jund
Play more/Mulligan more.Quote:
Originally Posted by JanoschEausH
I truly hate to be the guy saying that.
G1 = Resolving a Teeg is game. Most ANT list does not have any answer to it MD. Even if, your chances to live until T3 (T2 with DRS accel) + GSZ are poor, storm does not always have the kill T1 or T2 hands. Not to mention that they are somehow weak to disruption (discard).
If you are playing against TES, a T2 SFM -> batterskull is able to beat the goblin path.
G2 & G3 = are dependant of your sideboarding strategy. If you play Qweerios' list your overall MU must be closer to 55-60 % than any other abzan list because he is playing lots of discruption MD (8 discard + 2 from the side + 2/3 hatebear + 2 surgical extract) not counting the 4 DRS and the Ooze.
Combo is tough, and Abzan list might be one of (if not) the best Nic Fit version against combo because you have access to disruption & hatebear.
High Tide is surprisingly winnable depending on the type of hate you're packing in the sideboard. While powerful and consistent, it tends to struggle heavily with the types of hate that Nic Fit is renowned for being able to field (a resolved Extraction / Slaughter Games is usually game over, for example -- to say nothing of Tsunami or Nether Void).
Fast Combo is the blue tax. It's just that simple. If you want to beat something like Storm, you need to:
A: play Death and Taxes and pray that you live until turn 2 (note that at this point you're playing an entire deck of hatebears and lose to virtually anything else)
B: play nonblue midrange/control and hope that your hands align vs their hands and that they don't kill you immediately
C: play a blue deck
Note how only C is actually the good option.
Let's go a level deeper.
The various Nic Fits have (in some cases wildly) varying matchups against different decks. Consider vs combo:
Blue: Storm, Reanimator
White: Elves
Red: Sneak, High Tide
Blue picks up percentage against Nic Fit's historically worst matchups. Red molests Sneak and High Tide based off of the strength of Slaughter Games -- it should be noted that if Sneak just goes off on turn 1 and/or they are playing Leyline of Sanctity, that goes right back to being unwinnable. White's premier strength is vs Elves, but what you don't see here is that white picks up modest percentages against most combo just by playing the DnT game. Sometimes you go Therapy into Canonist into Zenith->Teeg into Mindcensor and just stare at them. I certainly wouldn't consider white favored against combo (other than Elves, which is surprisingly very beatable with white), but it's also not as UNFAVORED as the other colors are vs their non-specialized combos.
I'm high on Abzan for the GP for the same reason that I'm low on BUG, though: red decks. UR Delver and Burn are going to be two of the most popular decks in the room across all tables/standings. Both of those decks historically do well at GPs, they're cheap and easy to build -and- to play at at least a modest level of efficacy, and this has only become more the case this year with the rise of Treasure Cruise and Modern Burn, which is highly analogous to Legacy Burn (aka, more players have access to the format).
BUG is the more rounded deck with better matchups in general, I would argue. But Abzan smashes Delver, smashes aggro, and smashes Burn -- and that's where I want to be for a Grand Prix, where those three things are going to make up a substantial part of the room.
I think the BUG lists are quite a bit better vs. combo due to the ability to board in Force. Reanimator and sneak&show seem about even pre-board and favored post-board. Elves is about 40/60 in their favor, but has never felt unwinnable. Typically if they don't get the nut draw and hoof you immediately, you are fine. I actually haven't been running into much storm at all, so I can't really speak to it. The matchup against the glass cannon decks like oops! all spells and belcher is not great and they usually win game 1, but sometimes you therapy them out and they just die without doing anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralf
I'm still playing with meddling mage in the sideboard, I really like that it does double-duty against miracles but haven't concluded whether it's actually good or not.
Hey guys, I am a punishing Jund player and I am thinking about jumping ship and going bigger due to the state of things right now. Would you guys say that punishing nic fit would be a strong choice in the meta right now? It seems like deed would be really solid against many of the high tier decks, and there is more inevitability with nic fit than punishing jund. Rogue factor is always nice too.
I'm not the most versed in that version of the deck, but I would imagine that Punishing Fit is probably pretty well positioned right now. Pretty much every Nic Fit is, I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by ironclad8690
How does everyone feel about Phyrexian Tower these days? Basically, the options are:
9 fetches, 6 basics, 6 duals
8 fetches, 6 basics, 6 duals, Tower
9 fetches, 5 basics, 6 duals, Tower
9 fetches, 6 basics, 5 duals, Tower (least appealing)
I love that it can give you incredibly explosive turns, but sometimes you really need the shuffle as BUG. I'm currently running 2 forest, 2 swamps, 1 island, Tower, but I'm not convinced it's correct.
I do:Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliq
6 fetch, 7 basics (3/2/2), 7 duals (4/2/1), 1 tower, 1 karakas -- white builds
6 fetch, 7 basics (3/2/2), 8 duals (3/3/2), 1 tower -- blue builds [[subset: sometimes -1 basic +1 mikokoro]]
I won't list Scapewish's manabase since that's pretty unique among Nic Fit manabases.
I find 6 basics to be the lowest you can go and still reliably get your desired basics consistently with an Explorer trigger. I would not go to 5 basics if you're planning on setting off an Explorer reliably within the first three turns of the game.
Usually, I prefer having more duals over more fetches. I like to automatic edge this gives me in playing vs Stifles, DRS, and sometimes the lifeloss saved is not irrelevant. I do sometimes regret not having more shuffles for Top, but I'm usually happier with fewer fetches than the other way around in testing. Note: if you're playing DRS yourself, this equation changes a bit. Same with Treasure Cruise.
I'm playing with 4 copies of DRS, brainstorm, and only one Zenith, so I think I'd simply not have enough shuffle effects. I do agree that in the day or two that I've been playing with only 5 basics it hasn't felt like enough; I'll probably chop a fetch for the Tower or just not run it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
I have been playing with both Qweerios Rock list and Arian's Abzan list, and I have to say both are really fun to play. I have been doing well with each of them too, but I haven't faced too many tier 1 decks yet.
I think I am going to narrow in on one list and hone it a bit before SCG Oakland, and then I will post my results after the tourney. Hopefully I can get enough practice in to become proficient at one of the decks before the event.
Went 3-1 at a local tournament today using my Abzan deck with a few suggested modifications (Lingering Souls). I tied for second place with the Elves player I lost to. Here's what I used:
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Veteran Explorer
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Lingering Souls
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
//SB
2 Duress
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Sylvan Library
1 Choke
1 Engineered Plague
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
2-1 vs. Burn
Nothing interesting to say here. Lots of discard into equipments and deathrite activations.
2-0 vs. UWR Delver (with TC)
He drew lots of cards, cantrip a whole lot, and cast a few force of wills. In the end he didn't find the right answers at the right time and lost to Decay and SFM/Liliana.
0-2 vs. Elves
Lost G1 when Symbiote shut down Jitte. Had a close G2 but I lost the topdeck war to a Natural Order. Once again a Symbiote was shutting down my Jitte as well.
2-0 vs. OmniShow (with DTT)
One Thoughtseize and Lingering Souls + DRS beats get there in time during G1 (lucky). G2 my opponent opens with 2 Leylines but I have all the hatebears and Liliana. We played a 3rd game pre-board for fun and I won quite easily with discard + Teeg.
Going forward I didn't get to see Lingering Souls in action. There are a few cards in the SB that are questionable and that I might not keep on supporting.
-Spirit of the Labyrinth is underwhelming as a hatebear and I think I'd rather double up on Canonist, Teeg, or anything else really.
-Sylvan Safekeeper is quite narrow as well. The second Teeg is probably better against Miracles too.
-Sylvan Library doesn't feel like a SB card and I could really benefit from having it in the main again. Perhaps over the 3rd Lingering Souls as they serve a similar purpose (AKA: grind and card advantage/quality).
-Choke is very specific to Miracles as I can't afford to side it in against any fast blue decks, which is to say: all of them. A 2nd Needle sounds much better.
-Reclamation Sage is almost always sided in (Eidolon, Vortex, Omniscience, Sneak Attack, Leyline, and Batterskull is the big one).
-A couple of Swords to Plowshares in the SB would definitely seal the deal against Delver decks and help in the Elves matchup.
Also, I really question the use of Ooze as a mainboard card. Aside from having a better game 1 against Lands.dec and Dredge, I find Ooze to pale in comparison to DRS. He is simply too slow vs. Reanimator (and arguably Dredge) and DRS gets the same job done for less. You don't want to tutor him against Storm G1 because Teeg ends it. I understand that he is good against Goyf and DRS but those cards simply aren't a problem for us, besides, you can always fight them with DRS. Ooze is great against Punishing Fire but we can always rely on Sigarda for G1. Against Treasure Cruise, contrary to what some people might believe, Ooze doesn't do much. In short, I haven't GSZ'd for an Ooze in a very long time (pre-Nemesis era maybe?). What do you guys think of Ooze at the moment?
- SoL might be underwhelming in your latest list. +1 CanonistQuote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
- Sylvan safekeeper is surely better in Maverick along with KOTR & utility lands.com -> +1 Teeg
- Choke is also good vs xxxblade.deck but the card in general is very blue-centered. Pithing needle might be an overall better choice.
- I don't get the point of Reclamation Sage. In your list (without POD) Qasali Pridemage > Reclamation Sage. The only case where RS > QP is when the body (2/1) matters. Up to you.
- Ooze is not shining in your deck because unlike P.Fire builds you don't get to put as much as creatures in graveyards. However, I found that in many fair matches when you are trading creatures with your opponent, an unanswered Ooze is usually game (the later it lands, the better). Not to mention how it single-handedly crushes Tarmo (which is not a corner case as you are only packing 4 spot removal). You were paired with 3 combo deck (I consider burn as a combo deck ), don't dismiss him too quickly.
- a pair of STP could also be a nice option. Unfortunately, space is tight.
My opinion on Scavenging Ooze has been well-documented. Of course, then I go and run him in my Thune list anyway, but that's mostly because he offers strong synergy with Thune aside from his generic semi-utility. In non-Thune lists, I don't think I would touch him. I knew Caleb Durward just stated in his latest video series on Nic Fit that he believes Nic Fit to be the best possible shell for Scavenging Ooze. I counter with Koboldstorm is the best possible shell for Kobolds of Kher Keep -- but that doesn't make Kobolds of Kher Keep a good card. Just because Nic Fit might be the best deck for Ooze does not make Ooze good enough for Nic Fit -- that's a logical fallacy.
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Selvala, Explorer Returned
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Eternal Witness
2 Spike Feeder
2 Siege Rhino
2 Archangel of Thune
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Sun Titan
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Council's Judgment
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Abzan Charm
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Sylvan Library
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
sb::
2 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Thoughtseize
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Krosan Grip
2 Baneslayer Angel
-----
This is my latest list, which I am preparing for Eternal Weekend (Legacy/Vintage Champs) this weekend, with an eye towards GP NJ beyond.
I've cut Spike Weaver in exchange for the maindeck Reclamation Sage. The deck has shifted to be much more GSZ-oriented than it has been in the past since I've cut Rectors and relegated Baneslayers to the sideboard for matchups where I need air superiority. Weaver has gotten worse in the current metagame, and the deck has shifted to have fewer non-Thune +1/+1 counter synergies. Before, with Varolz and Primeval Titan -> Gavony Township, Weaver was a powerhouse -- now, he's just a good tool to have access to, but I think that I would much rather have the maindeck RecSage at this point. As Qweerios noted, he was siding her in almost every matchup, which is usually the sign that a card should be maindeck.
Abzan Charm continues to overperform. I can't find room for more than 2, but it's a card I would highly recommend in general.
1st Sylvan over 3rd Top. The more I've thought about it, the more correct I think this is. Sylvan is just such a hilariously powerful card...especially in a deck with as much lifegain as this one has. Yes, sometimes it will get Deeded away. That didn't stop people from playing Disk alongside Necro, and it shouldn't stop us from playing Sylvan.
4th Bayou over 1st Marsh Flats / 7th fetch. I knew I wanted another colored source, and I've periodically had trouble getting black. The 4th Bayou balances the Karakas nicely. Bayou is also the land that we most want in our opening hand -- and 7 duals / 7 basics is a pleasing ratio.
As for the sideboard, I want as many generalist cards for EW/NJ as possible, as compared to my usual, more silver bullet-ish approach. The 3rd Decay is mostly respect for the Swiftspear decks, but was split off from the 2nd Krosan Grip that I had previously as it basically does the same thing but comes in for a few extra matchups, so it's a good hedge.
2 Nihils because I think that card is horrifically underappreciated at the moment. Reanimator and Dredge are both popular, Nihil helps deaden Snapcaster and Goyf, and it sort of keeps Cruise under control ish but not really.
3 Seize because Seize is the most generalist anti-combo card there is. There isn't actually a combo deck that doesn't suffer from getting Thoughtseized, unless they open Leyline of Sanctity, and then we likely aren't winning anyway unless the bears get there.
2 Carpets to help ramp vs miracles in absence of Explorers, and as ramp spells 5-6 for vs Delver decks. Pretty standard....when the card is good, it's nuts, and I think that it's good right now.
2 Mindcensor + 2 Canonist -- as mentioned previously, this hatebear package rounds out the discard nicely. These 4 cards are pretty effective against Elves when backed up by the flurry of discard, removal, and sweep. They're also effective against basically any non-sneak and show combo. I know walking into this room that I'm softer than usual against Sneak. I'm basically gambling that the deck is out of favor at the moment and that I can dodge it. If I do get paired vs it, I have a sideboard plan...but it's likely not good enough and I will need some luck to win it.
Decay and Grip I've already mentioned -- good vs miracles, DnT, 'Blade, and some fringe decks.
2 Baneslayers for air superiority in some matchups. These babies are how I solved the Shardless matchup a few months ago, because fuck Baleful Strix...first strike is a relevant ability. They're also as good vs burn and delver as they've ever been, and they do give me something to do vs Reanimator / Sneak that's better than Thragtusk (protection from Griselbrand).
--------------------
Oh, and for anyone who's curious, here's my vintage list:
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Notion Thief
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Fire // Ice
4 Force of Will
3 Mana Drain
3 Mental Misstep
1 Echoing Truth
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
3 Dack Fayden
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Dig Through Time
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tinker
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1 Library of Alexandria
//sb
1 Darkblast
3 Ingot Chewer
1 Mountain
1 Energy Flux
2 Pyroblast
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Nihil Spellbomb
4 Grafdigger's Cage
Fully owned / 0 proxy =D
Still trying to iron out a couple of contentious slots / the sideboard.
Here's Caleb's BUG nic fit video, for those interested: http://www.channelfireball.com/video...y-bug-nic-fit/
@Ralf,
Reclamation Sage, unlike Qasali, stays in play after the effect. You get to generate card advantage by having a body to beat your opponent and carry equipments. The body is especially relevant against Batterskull if you have a Therapy in your GY because you get to target Batterskull and flashback therapy naming it.
As for StP, I am currently comparing them to Souls. StP is better than Souls against almost every deck G1 while souls only truly shines against Miracles. I understand the synergy of Souls with Equipments, Therapy, and Liliana but I fail to see the need for them aside from flying over Nemesis and maybe stall Delvers. I think I'd rather have the additional removal G1 for cards like Delver, Bob, DRS, Mom, etc. than the occasional Lingering Souls against Miracles and opposing Lilianas. Testing will tell.
I think ooze is really good in the creature-heavy lists, but I don't like it at all in Caleb's list because it's totally reliant on his opponent playing a bunch of creatures. I'm also not sure I'd want to run his list the way he has it with no DRS, but I'd have to try it out.