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Im gonna play the "RiverGhast Dredge" on the Scandinavian Open on sunday and wonder if u have some SB-idees. Played yesterday against D&T and STRAX and 5-0-1.Quote:
Originally Posted by JTMSFTW
River Kelpie, Dread Return a Dryad Arbor or landfall on Bloodghast (My card says Der Blutschaudere :wink:) are just so much better what i thought!
I'm just a bit confused. It seems like we went from an enabler pur sang (dread return into dredge 3+) to a potential enabler (dredge 1, then the opponent can respond, already need to have another sac outlet online in the gy, or bloodghast + land in hand or salvage in gy)...
Say in a bad case scenario, 3 cards in hand due to Phantasmagorian, whirlpool rider dredges 3 unconditionally. Even with 2 bloodghasts and a land to drop, you won't even pass that bad whirlpool rider scenario (that turn), let alone the worse disrupting shoal interaction..
It seems fringe, but it needs more to set up the thing... That's supposed to set you up! Or am I missing something here?
Edit: the scenario you're describing potentially gives you (kelpie, kelpie (DR sac), dread return, arbor, 2 blood ghast) 6 dredges. but you need 1 Dread Return, 1 arbor, and 2 ghasts more than a whirlpool rider for that to happen. Having the 3 creatures in play is nice, but you just wasted 1 of your 4 dread returns to make that happen (for a 1/1, and 2 2/1s, once you've got dread return online that's not that hard to get). wasting the DR is huge! And I'm not even talking about a comparison with Spy, or grisel.
The more I think about it, the worse it gets :D. It may just work well because the synergy is just amazing in this deck, but that doesn't mean it's optimal.
Dakmor dredges 2, not 1.
It also allows you to create a couple of creatures on your turn whenever you need them. It makes it easier to set up the combo turn b/c you have more recurring critters.
He is obviously not talking about Dakmor Salvage. It is about the guaranteed dredges you get out of Kelpie as opposed to the potential dredges given the setup.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
The part with dredge 3+ isn't about Golgari Thug and friends neither.
Best regards,
Hey JTMSFTW can you show us how to sb?
http://imgur.com/zJIWkny
g3 against tinfins ^^
riverghast is more grindy but it's good too
siding is a bit rough
RE: *Riverghast*Quote:
Originally Posted by P-E
Not a big fan of the green splash here, as the chance of getting both a claim & the green mana in your intial 8 is fairly minute.
I'm currently working on a version that does incorporate the RiverGhast package, but forfeits the Arbors (so it's pretty much the standard Spy build where Spy = Selkie, Chancellor of the Annex = Bloodghast and Shambling Shell = Dakmor Salvage). I'm set to run it in a tournament july 25th. I'll let you know how it works out.Quote:
Originally Posted by slave
I'm a bit confused with the "river-ghast" tech. I understand it's a bit more grindy against say extractions and removal. Most often my wins come from returning a spy for the combo kill, I'm not sure I want my deck to be any slower than it already is. And I agree with slave, green mana plus claim is a bit of a pipe dream in your opening seven. This deck is consistent due to the quality of cards that have effects in the graveyard, the reason why I stopped playing led dredge was due to how often so much of my yard was filled with useless shit. Finally, switching a dredger with a lower dredge count bothers me a bit, I always want to dredge as much as possible. I think it's an interesting brew, I just want to see how the deck plays to its strengths and weaknesses.
LOL, I still play Manaless (instead of LED-dredge) for the same reason. LED-Dredge is faster of course, but against either blue or black decks it's easier to hate out.Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmythegreek
I think I might give it a go, just without the green bit, and concentrate on a blue version and give us a better sideboard.
Kelpie is great with Ghasts and Ickys, but being 5-cmc hurts the counter plan VS Rider @ 2cmc.
Think I'm gonna experiment here and see where it goes... kinda feel like a change of pace anyway!
Hi guys, last thursday i played a local 4 round at my shop and went 3-1 and made top. We all split for prizes. But i have a small report of what i can remember. Im playing the same Blue list thats in the first post:
Round 1 - Food Chain (2-0)
G1: He goes t1 Noble Hierarchic, and goes t2 DRS. He said he might have heard i was on Dredge and he would have t1 DRS if he was sure. I turn 2 therapy after a git probe and he reveals a bunch of lands, a food chain, and a dig. I took the dig by mistake trying to lock him with just a food chain, which is a lot riskier. It worked, but at any point he had the chain online and could have drew everything to win. But he does nothing else really and we win.
G2: I believe he does get a DRS out, but late again. I turn 2 therapy 2 food chains away, and he does nothing relevant and eventually kill him.
round 2 - RW Painter (0-2)
Both games of the match he turn 2 combos me. This is whats making me take out 1 Ashen Rider from the side and putting in 1 Progenitus.
round 3 - reanimator (2-1)
G1: He gets out a turn 3 or 4 Griseldaddy, but is cast off an Entomb. I bring back a Whirlpool rider and dredge a HUGE amount of my library. This leaves me with tons of Ichorids/Narcos/etc. He's at around 10 life so i try to just go for the Flayer kill since i have at least 3 Dread Returns. He draws off Griseldaddy and has a Daze and a Force, but i have too many Dread Returns and eventually kill with Flayer triggers off zombies.
G2: The turn 0 leyline leads to a scoop.
G3: He sets up for a turn 3 Elesh Norn, but unknown to him i have Force + Shoal + Narcomeoba + Gitaxian Probe. I Shoal his Reanimate, he forces, and then i force which he was not prepared for. I then immediately Dread Return/Cabal Therapy an Ashen Rider (He's sided in just in case he has Entomb and he's in the grave) and take out 2 of his Underground Seas which leaves him with only a Tropical Island. Next turn he scoops with lethal on board.
round 4 - RW Painter (2-0) (Different opponent)
G1: Turn 1 top for him, t2 he goes recruiter for painter. On my t3 i strip his hand of the combo and he has nothing else going on and i just kill him next turn.
g2 - Seems like an okay game, he has like nothing going on until turn 3. He plays Recruiter getting Painter. I manage to therapy it away but he does have grind stone + Enlightened Tutor. I assume when he casts the tutor on his next upkeep he is going to go get his Tormods, but he punts and gets another Painter and realizes he doesnt have enough mana to play and activate.
So that puts us at 3-1, getting us into top 4 and we all decide to split for 25 credit a piece at 10 entry fee. The only change i have for this week coming up is putting in a Progenitus so im basically impervious to the combo from Painter. I think all they have is weenie beats if they cant combo me out. Of course they can just crypt me after they combo, but that can add more setup and if they really have that much redundancy then i was dead anyway.
What list do you bring to the tournament??Quote:
Originally Posted by Basedx
He brought the same blue list as in the first post...
Yes, as i said in the post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Went 4-1 tonight in 25 person tourney at lgs.
Rug delver 2-0
Food chain 0-2
Burn 2-1
Snt 2-0
Omni show 2-0
Super late and gotta be up early....maybe a short report tomorrow. Real quick though: omni player plays snt with one open land, I already have a chancellor in play. Omni player shows omniscience and I show chancellor number two, gg. Cabal therapy was so good tonight.
Nice one.Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmythegreek
So I took my Ghast-version along last week, went 3-1 (including a bye)
Won against Burn, UR Delver, Soldiers (permission based) - Lost against Death&Taxes
Soldiers and D&T was interesting with Dakmor! :tongue:
Not sure what to make of it compared to my standard blue list, gonna take it along next time to make sure.
After working on a list, and goldfishing;
I'm not entirely happy.
The blue plan demands a fairly single-minded approach to deck design, whereas Ghast/Dakmor dilutes some of that for it to all fit.
For me the Dakmors were very welcome given I expect to see Death&Taxes on a regular basis where I am.
The hardest part was the choice between River Kelpie & Whirlpool Rider. Ghasts and Kelpie are all good and that, but rider is where the blue plan wants to be if you're going to be siding in Disrupting Shoal.
I've gone with Kelpie for testing purposes and the last night out, but so far I'm not sold.
The flipside of this, perhaps only Force together with Kelpie, no shoals at all and maybe use the side for something else? (sigh)
Anyone else tried this out yet?
Admittedly I havnt dabbled alot with the blue version recently as ive been killing it with the spy version. I think ive been dodging some hate which also has alot to do with my results. My meta is super saturated with drs, excluding chancellor would be a death-sentence and I feel the card is super under-rated as a dread return target. I think if your gonna go blue you wanna use rider if for nothing else the ability to pitch it to shoal, the purpose of adding blue is most importantly to fight hate. Again, I havnt given much thought to the ghast/fow versions(still need to get some fow's). Until I get hated out at my lgs im gonna run the spy's as they are the fastest way to win. Slave, whats your meta like and does it warrant the blue splash? Btw....manaless crushes blue decks, so good.
Where I typically play is a mixed bag of newbie's and ye olde regulars like me.Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmythegreek
Blue is very common (as it always is in Legacy I suppose), and hate has subsided a fair bit in the last 6months to a year, since Death&Taxes decks started dominating.
So most of the time Manaless is playable. I'm almost the only person who plays it regularly, or LED-Dredge, but there is another fella who drags it out occasionally.
We have at least 3 regular players of D&T in a room that holds ~30 players when maxed out, usually we see a few less than that though.
I don't see too many of the *Decks to Beat* lists showing up (besides D&T, Show, Reanimator) in my area thankfully, just the odd one here or there.
DRS is always a threat, and ran rampant a while back. But lately I haven't seen the sucker all that much.
Spy would probably be just as good given my meta to be honest, but I'm just not willing to give up the counter, I am well and truly a convert.
And I fully agree with you re:Rider, I've just been wanting to test out Kelpie. :wink:
I've done a number of games with Kelpie now and must say I'm pleasantly surprised. I'm using the following list:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Dakmor Salvage
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Bloodghast
4 Bridge from Below
3 River Kelpie
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Street Wraith
4 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
Sideboard
4 Mindbreak Trap
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Faerie Macabre
3 Vengeful Pharaoh
2 Contagion
1 Progenitus
Having 16 creatures that EtB (12 of which are recurring) is a pretty big upgrade. I'm not sure if I want to keep Selkie or trade it for Whirlpool Riders (or Drakes, since I'm not running counters, for that matter) though. Selkie still feels like it needs a little setting up/making sure conditions are right to go for it (you can't play a land before DR'ing it). But that might be just as true for the Rider/Drake. Or maybe I want to go with Griselbrand as DR target, I dunno yet. Being able to get those Bloodghasts on the field before comboing off seems like the best thing to do, since we want to Cabal Therapy our opponent before going off and all that.
I think that for the tournament this saturday, I'll be switching it to the Drake for the combo bit.
On a side note concerning the Spy version: The biggest upside of that build is that you don't need any extra dredges post-DR (obviously). The first time I DR'd Selkie, I ended up having to Therapy myself b/c all Grave-Trolls were in my hand and for some reason the last 3 Phantasmagorians were still in what was left of my library. It felt kinda silly. The Spy combo is a lot faster in execution, you don't have to manipulate that many cards/work so many triggers to kill your opponent. Not that that should be a reason to run Spy over Selkie/Rider, but it's worth noting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
I don't have the most experience with Manaless with Spy, but i do play the FoW version. Im a bit interested in why you are running this version instead of the regular Spy version if you arent running the blue FoW/Shoal package? From my understanding the FoW/Shoal version plays Whirlpool rider as a replacement for spy to give us cards to pitch for it while still being able to accelerate dredges. If you're not playing Forces, why not just play spy? It feels like you cant try and race decks fast enough because you don't have the additional counter package.