Confirmed: Eternal Masters - June 10, 2016

http://imgur.com/a/OuoVH

How Did Magic Perform in 2015? What's The Outlook For 2016? From Hasbro's 2016 Investor Day Update

This is an important factor that I don't really see people directly discussing in regards to the Reserved List. MTG is still growing at a strong, healthy rate. There isn't a good reason for Hasbro to through a wrench in the system like abolishing the Reserved List when MTG is experiencing such success. The only way Hasbro/Wizards will remove the Reserved List is if MTG goes in the red and they need a gimmick to regenerate interest. The conspiracy theorist in me thinks that this is the reason the Reserved List wasn't abolished years ago - it's the equivalent of a rainy day fund. If Hasbro's/Wizard's market studies ever show that MTG is losing its appeal they'll announce its removal and we'll see dual lands in standard and FTV: Reserved List. This could take years of course, but for now, I'll just be happy that at least a few people will be able to start playing Legacy.

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Originally Posted by Rayek

I really think that the only way for them to truly combat counterfeits is to reprint power/duals. They've tried (and I know they apologized and reversed course with this, but I see this as a genuine attempt) to stop proxies altogether and faced huge criticism. Their attempts at moving Vintage to MTGO isn't really working for varied and numerous reasons. They reprint highly valuable cards on a near-regular basis now (MM), and it's had the effect that one would expect, Modern is flourishing, prices become more stable, but not without value to collectors.

Who will get pissed of they do? People with enough extra cash to just own 4-10 playsets of power or Library or Workshop (or Force... they're already pissed). Honestly I care so little about the plight of people who use cardboard in binders as a stock portfolio. There's a FB Vintage group, and 1 out of every 4 people commenting on EM said they got rid of absolutely everything that *might* have been printed in EM. One person had something like 40 FoW they shifted when they heard of the *possibility* they'd be reprinting Force. Personally? I have playsets of RL cards. I take absolutely no joy in seeing Mox Diamond double in price, even though I have a few extras. I'm not using my two LED in anything, and I don't think it being up to $150 since EM's announcement is a good thing. This is the difference between players and collectors, I place more value on the game itself than on the cards, The game gets worse when people can't afford to play it.

I'm with folks in that I don't think this thread should become about the RL, but so often this issue comes up (twice in the last few months, even) that I personally think it has to become something we need to constructively discuss, specifically about tactics we can employ to end it. Like I mentioned, the more they try to make money off eternal formats, the more players will be sucked in to a world where only half of their deck is accessible, and the other half is far beyond reasonable to attain.

I personally don't think they're edging against the RL, or have any plans to remove it. We should figure out what to do, especially once EM hits and sells out, and Wizards sees that more people actually prefer Vintage and Legacy (which I think is definitely true, when card prices aren't a factor).

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This is very well articulated. I totally agree with what's being said. I think I represent the other side of this new reality: I'm willing to walk away for good. Enough is enough. WotC is in bed with SCG and the other major MTG vendors. EM1 isn't going to stop skyrocketing prices of cards.

The market reaction to Eternal Masters is convincing me to cash out for good. I'm tired of this shit. I enjoy Legacy. I enjoy the friends I've met through playing. I don't throw all my discretionary income at MTG -- but if tournaments are asking for $40 today instead of $30 a few years ago, I'm okay with it. That kind of a rise in price is expected to a certain extent. I won't tolerate the now constant overnight spikes in card prices.

At least for me, it's been a constant race "do I want to spend some more cash on cards?" vs "prices went up 50-100-150-200%. What $50 gets me nowadays isn't what it got me 3 years ago. $300 gets you increasingly less and less. I don't think highly of this impending Eternal Masters set. Its impact on the market is all the proof I need. And that's without delving into the cards included in the set.

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Originally Posted by Warden

At least for me, it's been a constant race "do I want to spend some more cash on cards?" vs "prices went up 50-100-150-200%. What $50 gets me nowadays isn't what it got me 3 years ago. $300 gets you increasingly less and less. I don't think highly of this impending Eternal Masters set. Its impact on the market is all the proof I need. And that's without delving into the cards included in the set.

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Don't be so hasty. While it's true that Reserve List staples have spiked and will continue to spike in response to Eternal Masters, cards that are actually reprinted should go down. More importantly, Wizards can easily fix the Reserve List problem (it isn't really a problem) by just printing upgrades or slightly new versions of Reserve List cards. We've seen that the company has been willing to carefully address the price problem with reprints. It doesn't happen overnight, but they DO listen.

Look how they managed to shatter the price barrier for Shocklands in Modern by reprinting it aggressively in RtR block. Look how they tanked the price of fetchlands by reprinting them in Khans. Look at the dip in price of Modern staples during the print runs of Modern Masters, etc. Look at the great reprints from Eternal that were featured in Conspiracy. We haven't seen true replacements for the Alpha Duals yet, no, but they've come close twice with the Shocklands and now taplands. They can go further if they want to.

The point is, Wizards IS ACTING. So far, it hasn't been aggressive enough to keep up with demand. That doesn't mean we give up on them entirely.

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Originally Posted by davelin

This. Rosewater's article on the 20 things that shaped the game we know today and players' responses it pretty telling.

60-card decks and 4-per-card limits - "Why is Wizards trying to tell me how many cards I can play with???"

Banned and Restricted list - "Why is Wizards trying to tell me which cards I can play with???"

Creation of Type 2 - See above

Removal of ante cards - "Why is Wizards catering to small kids and parents???"

Removal of damage on the stack and mana burn - "Why is Wizards dumbing down this game???"

Chronicles - "Wizards is trying to make my collection worthless!!!"

Reserve List - "Wizards is trying to make this game too expensive!!!"

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Exactly. There are zero ways to please the entire community. In fact, I don't think there are any ways to please even most of the community.

What they should do is just what is best for the continued longevity of the game. So far, I haven't seen them do anything that is blatantly against that. I think they have also, in the past, critically misjudged how large (in terms of spending power) the Eternal community is and this set seems to be at least something toward marketing something for us.

Is it going to be perfect? No. Is the $10 a pack and extremely limited print run unfortunate? Yes.

But at least this is a first step in the right direction.

I think they managed to design something really elegant with the new colorless mana symbol. They made painlands 'better' than dual lands without infringing the reserved list or adding power creep

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Originally Posted by bruizar

I think they managed to design something really elegant with the new colorless mana symbol. They made painlands 'better' than dual lands without infringing the reserved list or adding power creep

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If painlands were fetchable I might be more inclined to agree, though there would be arguments for both based on the deck. Without being fetchable, it's not even close to equitable.

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Originally Posted by PirateKing

If painlands were fetchable I might be more inclined to agree, though there would be arguments for both based on the deck. Without being fetchable, it's not even close to equitable.

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Dual lands have no place in the Eldrazi deck because it's the only deck that uses so many <> symbols. It's also quiet different from Cavern of Souls as Cavern does not provides a splash color for sideboarded spells. For other decks this is less relevant, given to how little <> cards are playable outside the Eldrazi shell.

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Originally Posted by bruizar

I think they managed to design something really elegant with the new colorless mana symbol. They made painlands 'better' than dual lands without infringing the reserved list or adding power creep

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This. I'm currently playtesting GW Eldrazi and aside from 2 Mox Diamonds (which are not mandatory), the list is completely free of RL cards and whoops asses left and right.

Colorless mana cards are a great way to introduce new cards to the format without having to worry about the RL, although they might be cautions about it after the whole Eldrazi powerlevel disaster in Modern.

Brushland is actually a triland in the deck.

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Originally Posted by MaximumC

More importantly, Wizards can easily fix the Reserve List problem (it isn't really a problem) by just printing upgrades or slightly new versions of Reserve List cards.

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That's fine for Duals. But for everything else you have to ban the old cards or else Elves gets extra Cradles, Lands gets extra Mox/Tabernacle, Storm gets extra LED, etc. I don't think that is the right move.

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Originally Posted by Havrekjex

Just to check, since I haven`t seen any really good ones - do they have the right print pattern, text printed without the dot pattern, do they pass the light test etc? I can feel the paranoia starting to set in.

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The one I remember seeing (force of will) had all that, the only difference was it had black core paper instead of blue.

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Originally Posted by Crimhead

That's fine for Duals. But for everything else you have to ban the old cards or else Elves gets extra Cradles, Lands gets extra Mox/Tabernacle, Storm gets extra LED, etc. I don't think that is the right move.

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I don't disagree. I don't think people are eager to play in a format that allows 8 Tabernacles and 10 Alpha-Mox equivalents. The point, though, is that it is that concern over degeneracy and power level, more than the Reserve List alone, that keeps these kind of cards from being printed.

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Originally Posted by MaximumC

I don't disagree. I don't think people are eager to play in a format that allows 8 Tabernacles

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I play a bit in a format where 4 tabernacle are allowed, and the most I've seen is one, even if I've seen scarce lists on internet which have been playing 2.
So I just looked at mtgtop8, and among all the lists which have played tabernacle in legacy in 2015, there were 55 decks playing it. Well, the 55 lists have only one thing in common, which is their number of tabernacle. Exactly one.

Wasteland and Force of Will are getting reprinted. I am having a hard time seeing a down side for the future of Legacy here, even if the set is those and all chaff.

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Originally Posted by Finn

Wasteland and Force of Will are getting reprinted. I am having a hard time seeing a down side for the future of Legacy here, even if the set is those and all chaff.

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Duals are going to be more expensive. That's only downside I can see.

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Originally Posted by Quasim0ff

Duals are going to be more expensive. That's only downside I can see.

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If the price of enough staples comes down it may balance out - not only that, but shocks are a viable substitute for entry level players until they can work up to duals.
Or they could play all shocks and my avatar lol...

I hope they are smart enough to reprint all the expensive Fish, DnT and Elves cards. While you do need RL cards for optimal Elves, you could play in a local store without them. The others don't need RL cards at all.

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Originally Posted by dte

I play a bit in a format where 4 tabernacle are allowed, and the most I've seen is one, even if I've seen scarce lists on internet which have been playing 2.
So I just looked at mtgtop8, and among all the lists which have played tabernacle in legacy in 2015, there were 55 decks playing it. Well, the 55 lists have only one thing in common, which is their number of tabernacle. Exactly one.

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If we could keep two Tabernacles in play, there would be more incentive to double up. That's the issue with printing as similar card (eg, one where the creatures are sacrificed instead of destroyed).

Yeah, nobody is apt to run eight copies! But every Lands deck would gladly run two in the seventy-five if we had an almost functional rerprint.

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Originally Posted by Finn

Wasteland and Force of Will are getting reprinted. I am having a hard time seeing a down side for the future of Legacy here, even if the set is those and all chaff.

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Yes I agree, this has to be a net plus for Legacy. Those two especially are the two primary "police cards" of Legacy, and if people now can get their hands on a playset of either they might see a realistic way to compete in the format that wasn't there before. People could port their Modern Merfolk deck seamlessly, for example. Duals are still out of reach for most people, but duals mostly give you more options - they are not a must have, as such.
Trying to be optimistic. :wink:

Prices of duals will continue to go up. But we gain a lot from all the Eternal reprints they are doing.. more access for newer players..
And yet I dont think its that bad that duals go up a bit they have been relatively cheap compared to some of the Modern spikes etc. Nowadays a playset of Inquisition of Kozilek is worth more then a NM Taiga and a playset of Goblin Guides is worth a Bayou- this isn't normal and there has never been a ratio like this in the past..

Also you dont need a playset of duals. It really helps if you have just 1 to fetch... I have about 25/40 duals and this is enough to build most of the manabases...