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Didn't try Panharmonicon but I think the card you are looking for is Kiki-Jiki. On top of additional ETB triggers, Kiki-Jiki has potentials to combokill (Piledriver, Lightning Crafter/Skirk Prospector) or lock (Goblin Settler, Tuktuk Scrapper, Stingscourger) your opponent.Quote:
Originally Posted by slave
I wanted to note that as well, but GoboLord beat me to it. As it has been mentioned before a card needs to be really, really powerful, AND do something the deck wants done, to justify a spot in the deck if it is not a goblin card. We have a similar effect to this and it's on a 2/2 body. I'd try a heavy Kiki-Jiki build before Panharmicon personally. That said, the whole deck does sound strictly more fun with doubled ETBs.
How about instead of running Panharmonicon + Ringleader to get 2 Ringleader triggers you just run 2 Ringleaders. That seems easier.
I'm not gonna argue with you fellaz. I agree with your points, but I did consider that before posting.
My win/loss for goblin has been in the red every single time I've taken the deck out to play. Shit, even Burn kills me off quick.
SO I wanna try something.
I know about Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker. I've got one in my list, and other ETB gob's like Goblin Settler & Goblin Pyromancer.
I'm not running Piledriver to fit them in.
The point of me *testing* Panharmonicon isn't because it's the best option, it's that I can get it on the field a turn earlier than Kiki, and I don't need the 3 red mana, which is often hard to achieve with the disruption-style manabase.
It's also because by the time you hit 4 lands, you can often drop multiple cards on the table in a turn, exploiting ETB triggers.
This is the list that I arrived at after some testing.
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Mountain
1 Taiga
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Scalding Tarn
1 or 2 Karakas
2 or 3 Rishadan Port
1 Plateau
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Chieftain
3 Goblin Piledriver
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Stingscourger
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Mogg War Marshal
//Sideboard
SB: 4 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 2 Pyrokinesis
SB: 1 Tin Street Hooligan
SB: 1 Karakas
Let me discuss some of the unorthodox choices:
The Fanatics are likely a matter of preference. To me, they are kill spells for small creatures that additionally provide a decent clock together with Pileriver and Chieftain and benefit from all of the Goblin synergies such as Gempalm Incinerators and Ringleaders. Finally, they also work with Goblin Lackey, Cavern of Souls and Vial whereas other spells such as Tarfire or Lightning Bolt do not. They have been good for me, I would suggest giving them a shot.
Thalia is another oddball choice. Basically, I just want to increase my chances against unfair decks such as Sneak and Show, Reanimator and Storm. Karakas is there for the same reason. Perhaps 1 Karakas, 3 Rishadan Port would be better, not quite sure yet.
4 Gempalm Incinerator: I think this card is just sick. I don't understand why you would run less than 4. Although I suppose part of why Gempalm has been good for me is Mogg Fanatic.
Chieftain over Warchief: I suppose I miss out on the Matron into Matron into Piledriver combo, but one Matron less and a Chieftain giving +1/+1 provides only provides one less damage. Chieftain boosts fragile creatures such as Lackey and Fanatic and gives them some purpose in the mid and late game.
The sideboard has been designed to give me a shot vs. the unfair decks of the format:
4 Surgical Extraction: 4 GY hate spells are basically needed to even stand a chance vs. BR Reanimator. Only other option is Faerie Macabre, but I think Surgical is better vs. ANT.
3 REBs pull work against Sneak and Show. Additionally, they are relevant against a broad range of blue decks and also decent against ANT.
2 Chalice: Primarily there for ANT. Also good vs. Miracles and decent vs. Elves and Burn. I would only side in 2 vs. all matchups aside from ANT and that's why I chose to run 2.
2 Thalia: Round out the playset. Very versatile and applicable vs. a wide range of Combo decks.
1 Karakas: Together with 3 REB, 1 Stingscourger (and 4 Matron), the 3 Karakas have to carry the matchup against Sneak and Show. Karakas is also great against Reanimator and RG Lands. Also, the Karakas can just act as a 24th manasource in matchup where your mana gets attacked heavily.
2 Pyrokinesis: Primarily to combat Elves and Death and Taxes. Also applicable against Infect.
1 Tin Street: Is there 100% to answer Death and Taxes. I found that the ways I typically lose to D&T is either through Vial disadvantage or through Sword of Fire and Ice. Tin Street solves both problems and you often need to play Tin Street twice in a game.
Finally, some words on the fetches. I think 4 Scalding Tarn is preferable to any of the other fetches. When you open with Fetch, pass: Scalding Tarn gives the impression you are on UR Delver or Sneak and Show leading to some false assumptions by the opponent. Its a slight advantage over the other fetches. The flipside is that you are theoretically more vulnerable to Pithing Needle if you play the same 4 fetches, however, that has never ever happened to me anyway.
Any thoughts on the list? I have a 72% winrate with this deck on Cockatrice over 40 matches, so it seems to work out decently so far.
I don't hate it, but I have some thoughts.
Thalia and Piledriver are actually fighting for a similar goal in the maindeck, and that's to race Combo. Thalia is WAY better at racing combo than Piledriver. If I were to run a 3-2 split, I'd run it in favor of Thalia. Commit to it. Perhaps even a 3-1 split in the lass's favor.
Mogg Fanantic plus Gempalm is actually okay, it let's you kill a Stoneforge on turn 2 without sacrificing much. My issue with Fanatic isn't about how good it is in that scenario. It's about how it pairs up as a top-deck or mid-game card. I just find he doesn't do enough other than the scenarios where he is at his near best. To put it bluntly, I'd rather run 4 Tarfire AND 4 Gempalm.
I do think the minimum number of Mogg War Marshal is 2 in non-Winstigator lists. It buys time against Goyf, makes Gempalm hurt more, makes Piledriver swing harder. It pretty much does everything the deck wants to be doing, and it does it at a low opportunity cost.
I like mainboard Karakas, but I'd probably just run Another Stingscourger in the board over Karakas. Similar effect, but can actually do tricky things with Vial.
I, a long time ago, used to run Scalding Tarn as well for that reason. I eventually came to the conclusion that it didn't matter enough. Short of the corner case where someone kills you while you only have a fetch out, they kept their opener in the blind anyway. In the case where it might affect their opening play? The only thing I can think of is that they might Ponder first instead of dropping a Deathrite Shaman or Delver, but I still think that line is probably just incorrect for them anyway. They are giving up valuable momentum for a shot in the dark. Long story short here, I think that the Scalding Tarn "trick" only works on newer Legacy Players or poor legacy players. Now getting free wins isn't a bad thing, go for it. Sometimes they will be off by a mana all game. When I'm playing against better players this "trick" will never even come up. That mixed with the numbers for it just make the event too rare to matter enough. But if you got Scalding Tarns, go for it.
That are some very good points.
- Going up to 3 Thalia seems very reasonable. I may take your advice on that one.
- I understand your hesitance towards Mogg Fanatic. It is an underwhelming creature for sure. However, it synergizes well with the other components of the deck. I also tested a singleton Grim Lavamancer in the spot of one of the Fanatics and Lavaman did quite a decent job. Tarfire and Bolt are decent in most lists, but in this deck which relies on Thalia and Fanatic is just easier to cast.
- At the moment, I do like having Karakas in the sideboard because it seems good against Death and Taxes and RG Combo lands as well. Stingscourger is much more narrow and only seems to be relevant against Sneak and Show and Reanimator.
- Mogg War Marshal is very good against Eldrazi and is also important to stall Goyf for a bit. 1 is absolutely needed. A second seems optional depending on the expected metagame. Depending on what the meta calls for, I will absolutely consider the second copy.
Mogg Fanatic is fine but there is a reason we don't run it anymore:
Goblins is 9/10 times forced to sit back and slowly build a wall. If you look at the meta-game when Fanatic was really good it was when the deck was functioning more like an aggro deck with Ringleaders to keep it coming. Now with the format being exempt from caring about most Lackeys, Fanatic confuses the deck's identity/purpose.
I love Fanatic more than anyone, and all the guys here know that. I even tried Ember Hauler in a MODO league once. They are unfortunately just a bit too weak. The last time I played Goblins I even played 4 Fanatic (probably 3 months ago) and they were as underwhelming for me as others have said above. They were however excellent in the Goblin Mirror lol.
If your metagame is 50% fair decks like Pyromancer Delver, Elves and DnT I would absolutely recommend playing maybe 2 Fanatics, definitely not 4 though. I played 2 Fanatics during the DTT days when every deck was basically cantrips + Pyromancer and it was a beating against those decks. I also agree that it is excellent against combo just because it has cmc1 not 48 like the rest of the cards in the deck. The DCI foils look fantastic too :wink:
We don't run Mogg Fanatic anymore because damage no longer goes on the stack, which was the reason he was so bonkers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevestamopz
how many white lands (including fetchs) i need to use to make rest in peace effective against reanimate?
i'm really sure that's rest in peace is better than relic, cuz i dont need to play with 1 mana open every turn. (and i dont run surgicals on my SB, só rest in peace become better against loam/punishing fire decks).
11-12 should be enough for relatively consistant T2 RIP. That said RIP is not the best answer for Reanimator. Surgical Extraction, Leyline of the Void, or Faerie Macabre are much better answers. Relic is run as a catch-all that is good in grindy matches as well as having text against other decks. RIP is slow for Legacy's Standards. Additionally, for our deck, Containment Priest is usually better against combo than RIP. Sure RIP stops Goyf and bothers Deathrite Shaman, but Reanimator, Elves, and Show & Tell, and the like are far more scary. I can outgrind a Goyf, but just being dead to improper, or not enough interaction, is far worse.
All of that said I don't know how much grave hate your planning on running at all, I just wanted to make it clear that RIP is not the most efficient anti Reanimator card, and if that is the target try the cheaper options.
I'm curious what you think of containment priest in the sideboard. It seems pretty solid against a decent number of decks (Sneak and Show, Elves, Reanimator....mayyybee D&T if you're feeling brave? Shuts off vials for everyone, but it stops flickerwisp + recruiter chains, which is kinda sweet) I'm tempted to try 2 out in the place of Grafdigger's Cage as to have a 2-1 split, giving me a lot of game (in theory) against Reanimator.Quote:
Originally Posted by Olaf Forkbeard
Speaking of Reanimator, what is the consensus of what to do about it at this point? Online I have about 4 actual grave hate cards (1 Cage, 1 Relic, 2 Extraction, trying to keep one relic around for other matchups even though it's not very good against reanimator. It has text that matters at least) and 3 Thalia's to slow them down. However, it might be enough of a "fad" deck that dedicating this much (or more) hate is unnecessary? I really hate the idea of being completely cold in a matchup, but perhaps it's not worth hurting the others by using so much sideboard space. To play devil's advocate against myself, those 7 cards all have uses against other decks, so it's not as destructive to the board as something like 4x Leyline of the Void.
All in all, I think 4-5 pieces of actual grave hate is sufficient to have a chance, but other assisting prison cards like Thalia or Chalice are necessary to survive (like usual). Chalice is probably better because they can't collective brutality it away. The games you win against reanimator are when you can extract whatever they go for first, then either hope that they don't have another target, or you can jam Thalia on t2 and overwhelm them before they can stabilize. Doesn't seem like a great plan though.
yeah i know... but the problem is that reanimator match sucks. And all cards that is good against reanimator is crap against another decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Olaf Forkbeard
You may say "surgical is not a crap card". But surgical is not efficient against reliquary or goyf like RiP effect... and i can win more goyfs/reliquary matchs than reanimator match.
I think the Reanimator MU is too bad to fix. That was the case with UB Reanimator and RB Reanimator looks even worse for us.Quote:
Originally Posted by 1GoblinLackey
Recently , I included 2 Karakas in my RG list (one Main and one SB) as well as a 2nd Stingscourger in my SB. This has to do with the Rising popularity of SneakShow, but will also work against Lands and Reanimator. Any other hate that works against Reanimator seems to be too narrow.
Hello Guys,
I'm losing a lot to decks that run Hymn to tourach... so whats the main gameplan to play against these decks?
Idk how play games with heavy discards spells.
So whats best SB, side in and side outs for classic list.
What is your list and what is running hymn? Matron to ringleader is still your best play but if its pox boarding out high cc threats is good. I'm really not sure what else runs hymn atm...but used to.
Are you playing against Shardless BUG and BUG Delver?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sagratho
Hymn to Tourach is one of those deck's best main board spells against us. There isn't much you can do against Hymn specifically other than get your Ringleaders out as soon as possible to keep the hand full. As for the decks themselves Shardless is tougher than BUG Delver as they have some card advantage in Shardless Agent and Ancestral Visions, where as BUG Delver has Ponder's to smooth out their play and keep it aggressive. In both cases Relic or Rest in Peace is good against their goyvs. Krenko is a good tool against both decks, as he makes their ground forces insignificant. Pyrokinesis is much better against BUG Delver than it is against Shardless BUG, as they can't recover as easily. You'll probably only want 2 in anyway due to Hymn to Tourach. Keep it real, rely on Ringleader.
Take Lackey's out on the draw against Deathrite Shaman decks (other than Elves), and cut all but 1 Piledriver on the play. After that it get's rather specific based on your list and we can't do much more to help you without that info.
4 wasteland
4 rishaden port
4 cavern of souls
3 bloodstained mire
2 wooded foothills
1 scalding tarn
3 mountain
1 badlands
1 plateau
4 goblin lackey
4 goblin ringleader
4 goblin matron
4 aether vial
4 goblin warchief
3 goblin piledriver
3 tarfire
3 gempalm incinerator
2 krenko, mob boss
1 earwig squad
1 skirk prospector
1 stingscourger
1 tuktuk scrapper
1 goblin sharpshooter
1 goblin chieftain
3 pyrokinesis
3 thalia, guardian of thraben
2 wear/tear
2 surgical extraction
2 rest in peace
1 tuktuk scrapper
1 pyroblast
1 warren weirding
The pyroblast should definitely be another goblin sharpshooter. Moving forward I would consider trying to find room for a 4th tarfire, and possibly cutting the Stingscourger for a maindeck warren weirding. I don’t think that siege-gang or any other 5 drops are necessary right now, and being able to leave vial on 4 helps with grinding if they wrath/etc. after we tick to 5. 2 Krenko seems like a lot but you really just win maybe 80% of the time you tap him. I don't hate the idea of playing 4 surgical over the rips, but rip is more powerful in the true graveyard-y matchups that aren't reanimator or weird hypercombo.
Round 1: Burn. I am given a game loss for not having my decklist fully written out at the beginning of the round. With the threat of a match loss looming if I didn’t fill it out fully, and my sideboard incomplete, I threw a lot of graveyard hate and a pyroblast in. The graveyard hate is fine, but the pyroblast was very mediocre and I almost always play a second sharpshooter.
Game 1: (post-game loss): opponent is on burn and draws a lot of copies of price of progress. I am able to only play 2 nonbasics, one being a wasteland, and just leave up the wasteland every turn. Eventually he has to start using his burn spells on creatures to not die and I win the race.
Game 2: opponent draws a card for his turn one, on the play. I get to shuffle a card back in and he shows me a hand of 2 ensnaring bridge, 3 Smash to smithereens, 2 searing blaze, mountain. I took the searing blaze, which was foolish because I’m just supposed to take the mountain, and he dies because he boarded in and drew 5 cards that don’t do anything.
1-0
Round 2: UR delver
I don’t remember much of this match other than a forked bolt and a snapcaster forked bolt being a beating. I also made a pretty brutal misplay in game three by using my skirk prospector to sac for mana instead of a different goblin, running right into a daze. I was previously considering just using it to play a 3 drop because I didn’t draw any red mana sources and forgot I could sac other goblins.
1-1
Round 3: Countertop welder
Game 1: I mulligan to 5 and keep 3 wasteland, lackey, ringleader. I scry bottom and one-time a mountain off the top, opponent doesn’t have interaction and I get to turn 2 ringleader and eventually grind him out. He played 4 basics and showed me a goblin welder, so something was amiss.
Game 2: I board in a lot of shatters and draw a bunch of them and removal spells, but he has double-top and three welders and a spellskite which means he draws a million cards a turn and nothing is ever shatter-able. Fortunately he somehow just bricks a bunch and I can krenko him out.
2-1
Round 4: Reanimator
Game 1: I have a pretty quick start with lackey into chieftain into other stuff. He makes a scary thing on turn 2 on the play, which is not enough because I’m a lucksack and drew a stingscourger. He makes a griselbrand on turn three off a reanimate, which puts him low enough that I can attack him and kill my own guy before damge.
Game 2: I keep a thalia-rest in peace hand, he ashen riders my land and I don’t draw out of it.
Game 3: I keep a loose one with hate, then surgically extract his iona in response to a reanimate. We both do not much for a few turns, until he makes a big scary guy. I draw a warren weirding and win while he reassembles.
3-1
Round 5: ID into 7th seed of top 8
3-1-1
Quarter-finals: Miracles
He had somewhere to be and scooped, which is kind of a shame because this is easily my best matchup of the day. Would have preferred my free win elsewhere, but I’ll take it.
Semis with infect: Colin White was my opponent and he is very bad, so my victory was assured.
Game 1: I savagely outplay him by drawing a goblin sharpshooter and 2 tarfires.
Game 2: I draw two copies of pyrokinesis which are quite excellent against infect.
Finals with grixis delver:
Game 1: I am higher seed (7th vs. 8th in the finals) and I play a lackey on turn 1. He doesn’t have a deathrite shaman or a bolt so I win.
Game 2: My opponent blind hit with therapy turn one, then had young pyromancer-git probe-therapy again turn 2, then played brainstorm, therapy, flashback therapy, bolt your guy on turn 3. He has a lot of cards and creatures and I don’t have any of those things. Rip. Also, this game I whiffed on a ringleader, and hit a pyroblast which was supposed to be a sharpshooter, which would have won the game and the tournament. Tilt.
Game 3: I take a mulligan to 6 and keep a hand of 2 vial, 2 cavern, mountain, warchief. This hand is a reasonable favorite to win the game if I draw a matron, ringleader, or running threats and I am pretty sure he is going to be trying to slow down with a lot of interaction, so I keep it because mulling to 5 against grixis is rough. I guessed correctly about the texture of the game because it goes on for a bunch more turns. Unfortunately I draw 2 spells and 6 lands, the 2nd spell being a turn 8 lackey. No trophy, only pain.
Overall kind of pleased with my finish, even though I feel pretty robbed about the finals. The Toronto legacy meta is super weird and full of fair decks, so if you play something good against fair decks with a plan for young pyromancer and reanimator you should be fine, which I feel like goblins is.
I rather enjoyed that line.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandallBarber
Yea, Sharpshooter is in a weird spot for me personally. It's really, really good, and often really, really slow. You get reaps of reward for waiting, but I have lost a number of games to it just not being fast enough. Mostly Grixis memories to be fair, with a couple being Elves. Your deck looks pretty good for what you ran into.
I too have learned the lesson about deck registration, and was not properly punished for it. R1 in Indi a while back I got a game loss against UR Delver, but I too savagely outplayed him, only with Pyrokinesis for G2 and 3.
Thanks for the report.
Haven't played goblins for more then a year and a half.
So played a tournament today.
Pretournament games was:
3-0 miracles(no sb) first game won in 1 life with kiki+karakas.
1-0 D&T
The tournament:
R1. Grixis delver. 2-1
Sb: -4 lackey, -1 tuk, -1 sting, +3 relic, +2 moon, +1 pyro
In game three sbout moons because he saw them in game two with probe.
R2. UBRG shaman, tnn, loam, pushfire, jace, new chandra 2-0
G1 i swarm, g2 he kept onelander after mull to 6 with 2 brainstorms. He hit second land on turn 4 but moon was high.
Sb: -1 sting, -4 lackey, +2 moon, +3 relic
R3. UG infect 2-1
Sb: +3 pyro, -1 tuk, -2 liege
G2 and 3 killed by lackeys and friends
R4 ID with Miracles
List
4 goblin lackey
4 aether vial
3 mogg war marshal
3 goblin piledriver
2 stingscourger
4 gempalm incinerator
4 goblin matron
4 goblin warchief
1 goblin sharpshooter
1 tuktuk scrapper
4 goblin ringleader
2 boartusk liege
2 krenko, mobb boss
1 kiki-jiki, mirror breaker
1 rishadan port
4 wasteland
4 cavern of souls
1 karakas
11 mountains
Sb
3 relic of progenitus
2 pithing needle
4 thorn of amethist
2 blood moon
1 tuktuk scrapper
3 pyrokinesis