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It's hard to like other form of removal when you are switching from the best one (path). My main attraction to bug and GB is push, as a replacement to path.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
On a side note, I have been really liking to the slaughter in the side. Playing 2 at the moment, and they make me feel somewhat safe against jace. 3cmc is nice vs CB.
Hi buddies !
It's been a long time since I was moving into my new flat.
-Lately, I did a top 8 undefeated on a EW trial (35 players) with a sneak fit list (5 rounds, ID on the last one). Then I lost on quarter against a big maverick with an obvious lack of luck. But life is life :)
I ran against infect, d&t drazi, food chain and some other agro/tempo deck that I don't remember.
-And then I ran undefeated on an fnm (18 players) with Nyx fit (4 rounds, true draw on the last one).
I ran against 2 delver lists (grixis and RUG), a bant blade and final against Ur control (countertop). But did side mistakes on the last one.
My lists:
Sneak:
1 [R] Badlands
1 [R] Bayou
1 [R] Taiga
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
2 [US] Phyrexian Tower
2 [UNH] Swamp
3 [UNH] Forest
3 [UNH] Mountain
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [] Wooded Foothills
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [] Eternal Witness
1 [] Inferno Titan
1 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [M13] Thragtusk
1 [] Woodland Bellower
2 [CMD] Fierce Empath
2 [] Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 [] Veteran Explorer
1 [] Nissa, Vital Force
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [] Aid from the Cowl (wasn't playable yet, but don't remember what it was)
3 [] Pernicious Deed
4 [US] Sneak Attack
1 [] Beast Within
2 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
2 [THS] Thoughtseize
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
SB: 2 [RTR] Slaughter Games
SB: 3 [] Inquisition of Kozilek
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 [] Summoner's trap
SB: 1 [] Reclamation Sage
SB: 3 [US] Carpet of Flowers
But I was disapointed by summoner's trap. So 1 more SG and 1 Leovold in SB
Nyx Fist:
1 [R] Bayou
1 [UNH] Plains
1 [R] Savannah
1 [R] Scrubland
1 [CS] Snow-Covered Plains
2 [UNH] Swamp
3 [UNH] Forest
3 [US] Phyrexian Tower
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [] Windswept Heath
1 [] Doomwake Giant
1 [] Eternal Witness
1 [JOU] Nyx Weaver
3 [] Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 [UD] Academy Rector
4 [] Veteran Explorer
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [] Aid from the Cowl
1 [LG] Living Plane
1 [NE] Parallax Wave
2 [] Dead Weight
2 [] Starfield of Nyx
3 [] Pernicious Deed
3 [IN] Sterling Grove
2 [] Inquisition of Kozilek
3 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 [BNG] Spirit of the Labyrinth
SB: 1 [TE] Humility
SB: 2 [] Lost Legacy
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 [ISD] Curse of Death's Hold
SB: 1 [PLC] Seal of Primordium
For now, I run Aid from the cowl over Nissa, VF. Needs more tests. Sometimes, it's overwhelming, sometimes you prey for just draw a lotery ticket like fetch.
Navsi, I saw you "stealing" my list for the primer ;) but would be nice to tchat on list choices together :)
I think I will end by accept those two decay over dead weight on the end.
How goes Neither void so far?
I love the Nyx Weaver. I made a long time before give it a try, but I don't want to go back since.
I never liked Dead Weight. If we're using a tutor for removal we'd pretty much always prefer to get Deed, Faith's Fetters or similar, so being an enchantment doesn't really help us very often. Decay can be cast through Nether Void / Dovescape and has better reliability against blue decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulysse95
I liked Aid from the Cowl but I actually kept Nissa in and dropped the second Starfield instead. They fulfill very similar roles as value engines (both in card advantage and cheating on mana) and imo Nissa is important to us for her ability to kill planeswalkers and apply a fast clock.
I looked at Nyx Weaver but wasn't ever impressed - mainly because it exiles itself so we can't recur it. If we want to tutor up Recursion we can just get Starfield, and if we want to Zenith up recursion we can just get Eternal Witness.
Yeah, it was the second option. I really like Nissa too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
In fact, I rarely use EW option from weaver. For me it's:
-a reach creature (blocks kill delver, chump blocks Marith),
-recurring with starfield and shroud with sterling
-grave feeder for starfield
-library digging with a sdt
I will go to a big event tomorrow. Still uncertain on the list I will play ^^'
I guess that makes sense. It just seems pretty low impact as just a 2/3 dude with reach that mills us. Doesn't feel like a particularly powerful deck slot - if we want flyers I'd rather just play Bitterblossom.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulysse95
Alternatively if you want something that flies, is recurrable with starfield, stabilizes against Delver and clears out the top of your library, maybe give Lightform a test? Sacred Mesa might be ok too. I don't think any of them are really necessary when we have Parallax Wave though.
I'm playing Mitchell's BUG Atraxa list (almost) at my LGS and we regularly pull in 20-30 diverse Legacy players every FNM. Non-mentor Miracles is quite popular and it's like hitting a brick wall. (Otherwise, loving the deck... thank you!) The question is, are my Miracles sideboarding assumptions wrong?
For reference, my 61/15:
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
4 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Path to Exile
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Vindicate
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Kaya, Ghost Assassin
2 Nissa, Vital Force
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
//Sideboard
3 Thoughtseize
3 Lost Legacy
3 Surgical Extraction
1 To the Slaughter
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Here are my assumptions and thought process:
1) Early disruption of Top/CB is the vital objective in the early game, so I keep in Cabal Therapy and bring in 3x Thoughtseize.
2) Always, always, always mulligan to get at least Therapy or T'seize in opening hand.
3) If Therapy, blind name Top on the play, Counterbalance on the draw.
4) Vets are just as much an advantage to the Miracles player, so they come out in G2
5) Bring in 1x Qasali PM for Counterbalance (but gets countered in mid/late game if they have Top/CB)
6) Bring in 1x Golgari Charm for CB (but gets countered in mid/late game if they have Top/CB)
7) Bring in 3x Lost Legacy for Jace and Angels
8) Bring in 1x Elspeth, Sun's Champion comes in to pressure Jace with little dudes.
9) Bring in 1x To the Slaughter for Jace.
10) I don't bring in Toxic Deluge for Angels. Maybe it's my observational bias but it seems to gets countered. Every. Single. Time.
11) I don't bring in Gaddock Teeg because the deck is low on creatures and he's a lightning rod for their 8x Swords (assuming Snapcaster).
12) I don't bring in Surgicals. Perhaps they will help with StP/Snap or any good stuff snagged by T'seize?
13) So, after all that, I take out 10 cards: -4 Vets, -1 Atraxa, -2 Rhino, -1 Kaya, -1 Meren and -1 PtE.
14) I keep these in but.... :
- Ooze and DRS to try to snag Snapcaster targets.
- Meren and EWit in an attempt to force card advantage but, again, perhaps my logic is flawed due to the small number of StP/Terminus targets?
- Deeds for tokens.
- 2x PtE.
15) Should I consider Flusterstorm or Invasive Surgery to help with early disruption? Surgicals for PtE?
Any and all suggestions, observations, criticisms and/or insults gladly accepted!
oo
Top/CB isn't as big an issue as you imply. Most of our good ways of ending the game are at mana costs where it's hard to counterbalance anyway, and we also have Green Sun's Zenith to get around it, and Abrupt Decay / Deed to kill it once it is in play. Therapy / Thoughtseize is also pretty bad just because Miracles is so good at playing off the top of their deck with Tops etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hmmm_Really?
Don't take out Kaya, she's amazing in the matchup.
I'd say keep the Rhinos, they at least apply pressure and can drain them out after they stabilize.
If they aren't playing Mentor, I'd drop the Paths 100%.
Mana advantage is very important in a matchup where both players run SDT. I'd say you want Carpet of Flowers in your sideboard to replace Veterans.
Scavenging ooze you can cut, very few creatures will be hitting the yard.
I'd say cards you definitely want to cut:
3-4 Veteran Explorer
1 Meren
1 Atraxa
3 PTE
As many CT as you can swap for good cards
Cards you want to bring in:
3 Lost Legacy
1 To the Slaughter
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
0-1 Qasali Pridemage (it's ok, but not amazing)
Carpet of Flowers
I'd personally drop one Thoughtseize and a Toxic Deluge for two Carpet of Flowers. Alternatively you could keep one of those in the side, and move QPM to the maindeck (where it's fine) for something.
Weaver is polyvalent and zenithable, which make it a usefull tool in the box.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
Give it a just a try ;)
This is probably a really dumb question, but should we name Terminus or STP with our first resolved Lost Legacy against Miracles? I just recently picked up the deck and have no experience against Miracles yet. I'm guessing Terminus because it's a bonkers card, but STP doesn't sound bad either because they have virtually 8 copies when Snapcasters are taken into account.
I usually name Jace first, he's one of the biggest threats that Miracles has and he severely improves their odds of winning if he lands. Lot of lists have been cutting down on Entreats lately.Quote:
Originally Posted by battousai555
If they are on the full playset of Mentor plan, which also has been picked up by some people, you need to recognize that in game one as best you can, and then name Mentor.
If I realise they aren't running Mentor, I usually name Entreat, just because it makes things so much safer when you know they can't oneshot you out of nowhere if you don't have a Deed sitting on board. Naming Terminus then jamming Sigarda is usually a pretty good plan though.Quote:
Originally Posted by square_two
Glad you like the list!Quote:
Originally Posted by Hmmm_Really?
What I would do with your list against non-mentor miracles (which I found to be a much harder matchup) is
-4 vet
-4 Cabal
-1 Atraxa
-1 Meren
+1 Elspeth
+1 Qasali
+1 To the Slaughter
+3 Thoughtseize
+3 Legacy
+1 ???(not really sure as deluge is really medium against non mentor but can still get angels occasionally and surgical is really bad against miracles)
So discard in general is really bad against miracles but thoughtseize is just better than therapy against them and we have a lot of really bad cards.
Atraxa and meren both get abused by karakas so they come out and you can not be shooting one with a vindicate as it is usually needed to kill jace.
I am not sure why you would want to take kaya out against miracles because against the non mentor version she usually draws a million cards and takes over the game and I would leave in the Rhinos because chaining rhinos together is an actual game plan, even if it is not the first one.
I find that the match up is usually a gridfest revolving around the planeswalkers both players have, which is why legacy naming jace is actually a plan in this matchup as you can answer all of their snaps/clique/angels.
Yup, with the first Lost Legacy just name Jace. After that probably Entreat, and after that you can start to think about winning.
I'm not so sure I agree with this. If you have 3 creatures on the board Jace can't really stabilize them unless they have Terminus. Terminus is the card that's a threat because it's what prevents you from going wide. If you take out their board wipes you not only significantly weaken Top but you make cards like Jace much worse. Furthermore, they might keep Jace in hand, but you can almost guarantee all their Terminus will be in their library so you don't draw them any cards (which could be bad if your Lost Legacy sets up a Miracle for them).Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Depends on what version you are playing, as well. Sneak fit cares less about both stp and terminus, more about Jace. Mainly because once you land a sneak attack, there are a lot of ways to tutor up emrakul or primetime, and lot of creatures gain value upon etb. I'd assume the same for starfield since creature removal does so little to that version. If you are winning by jamming rhinos then things definitely change.
Hi everybody! I'm back (kinda; priority is life then Modern then Legacy)!
So I'm thinking of potential power-plays with Renegade Rallier, Veteran Explorer, and Cabal Therapy on turn 2, but I'm not sure how viable that interaction actually is.
For example, would T1 G source into Vet, T2 B source into Therapy into Therapy FB into Vet Trigger for W and G sources into Rallier into fetchland be a reasonable play to make? That would be at least 5 mana by Turn 3, with potentially more ramp/disruption occuring with the one mana from the fetch on T2.
5 mana by T3 is ok but it's a bit slow, our Phyrexian Tower openings already allow for 5 mana on T2.Quote:
Originally Posted by EpicLevelCommoner
T1 Land, Explorer
T2 Tower, sac Explorer. That generates 3BB.
Crop Rotation also works in this opening because you go
T1 Land, Explorer
T2 Land, Crop Rotation, get Tower, sac Explorer.
Alternatively, you can go
T1 Land, GSZ for Dryad Arbor
T2 Tower (or Rotation into Tower)
This generates 1BBG on T2.
Does anyone run Smallpox as a nice way to remove an opposing DRS/Delver/True Name as well as sac an explorer? I always liked the BG lists that ran 2-3 of them. I could see it still being pretty good
Why wouldn't you just use Innocent Blood? It can nicely take out DRS on turn 1 if you are on the draw.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
I would imagine that often enough we just don't have the density of land destruction/wasteland for Smallpox to really be helpful. If we get screwed without a Vet early on, then we probably don't want to cast Smallpox. Even if we are fine, most decks are going to be able to cope with the rare loss. Especially if they profit at all from Vet.
Maybe if you are experimenting with Destructive Flow :cool:
Huntmaster would also work nicely with Smallpox since you can sac the token and benefit from the opp losing resources to do things.
Edict effects in general are pretty nice for us - wipe what board you can with Deed, then take out the pesky Angler/whatever that is left behind.
Someone could also experiment with Hulk combo, although I think it suffers from all the graveyard hate at the moment. Sneak Fit doesn't suffer that weakness and can be very quick.
^^ This. Also depends on what version of Miracles you're against, and your play style. I personally would name Entreat or Mentor if I knew what build my opponent was on. If I don't know, then it gets more complicated:Quote:
Originally Posted by square_two
If I'm running Sneak, it depends on if I have a Sneak Attack either resolved or in hand and what discard I have access to. I'd probably try to eliminate SDT if they haven't resolved one, or FoW if I have a Sneak to resolve, or Terminus / Blind attempt at snatching win-cons. Especially if you run P-Fires, Jace just isn't that scary for Sneak.
If I'm on a Junk or Junk-ish build, I'd still name win-con if I know what they're on. If not, I'd go for SDT if they haven't resolved one yet or I'd hit Terminus or Jace depending on my hand.