Re: Theros: Beyond Death spoilers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FourDogsinaHorseSuit
But that's not what happened. To declare an attacker requires you to
You're under the impression that declaring attackers is a thing done and then the game does stuff when the rules say that declaring an attacker is a process. You check the object all throughout this process. When you started the process it was a 2/2 to get under bridge, but by the time you're checking for triggers the process has made it a 6/6 with abilities.
The tapping is essential to making this work, because the order of steps matter.
It would certainly make Mask better if it worked like you‘re saying, but there is a hole in the rules. The problem is a logical one of what the game object was when a player declared it an attacker. Yes all the replacement effects happen before priority is given, and all the replacement things are done in a no-priority batch.
Ensnaring Bidge isn‘t quite the right card to illustrate this concept. Most specifically E-Bridge states creatures with power greater than x may not be declared an attacker, and this has nothing to do with removing things already past declaration of attack. To illustrate: Geist of St. Traft attacking into a Bridge (2 cards in hand), defender gets whacked for 6.
Perhaps a better way illustrate the difference between the game object which was declared the attacker and what game object is treated as tapped and attacking would be this:
Suppose a card imposes a static tax on any game object over 2 power attempting to declare an attack; at no point would the Mask‘d 2/2 owner be required to pay said tax (in that combat) by flipping over into the 6/6.
Another example could be a card that has a ferocious clause and will generate 2 types of triggers, one for attacking with <4 power and a different one if the attacker was over 4 power. With the face-down 6/6 you would only get the trigger for a 2/2 stat line.
Re: Theros: Beyond Death spoilers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fox
It would certainly make Mask better if it worked like you‘re saying, but there is a hole in the rules. The problem is a logical one of what the game object was when a player declared it an attacker. Yes all the replacement effects happen before priority is given, and all the replacement things are done in a no-priority batch.
Ensnaring Bidge isn‘t quite the right card to illustrate this concept. Most specifically E-Bridge states creatures with power greater than x may not be declared an attacker, and this has nothing to do with removing things already past declaration of attack. To illustrate: Geist of St. Traft attacking into a Bridge (2 cards in hand), defender gets whacked for 6.
Perhaps a better way illustrate the difference between the game object which was declared the attacker and what game object is treated as tapped and attacking would be this:
Suppose a card imposes a static tax on any game object over 2 power attempting to declare an attack; at no point would the Mask‘d 2/2 owner be required to pay said tax (in that combat) by flipping over into the 6/6.
Ensnaring bridge is the perfect card to illustrate this concept. When the process checks in step .1c it is a 2/2. But when you reach step .1f it's now a 6/6. It still being declared an attacker even though it clearly could not be one. If tapping happened first you wouldn't be able to send a Mask creature into the bridge because you have to do the steps in order.
Geist of St Traft is an irrelevant card to bring up because a creature put into play attacking is never declared as an attacker.
508.3a An ability that reads “Whenever [a creature] attacks, . . .” triggers if that creature is declared as an attacker. Similarly, “Whenever [a creature] attacks [a player or planeswalker], . . .” triggers if that creature is declared as an attacker attacking that player or planeswalker. Such abilities won’t trigger if a creature is put onto the battlefield attacking.
508.4c A creature that’s put onto the battlefield attacking or that is stated to be attacking isn’t affected by requirements or restrictions that apply to the declaration of attackers.
The rules are explicit that the token was never subject to any restriction, and implicitly say it was never declared as an attacker.
Your last example, the tax, is also covered in the rules and again it happens before tapping, it's covered in the same rule that covers bridge:
508.1c The active player checks each creature they control to see whether it’s affected by any restrictions (effects that say a creature can’t attack, or that it can’t attack unless some condition is met). If any restrictions are being disobeyed, the declaration of attackers is illegal.
When you make the tax check the creature is a 2/2 and won't be bigger until .1f, because you have to do .1c before you do .1f.
Re: Theros: Beyond Death spoilers
We're talking in circles here. Your rules interpretation is fine but there is a difference between what attacked and what is tapped and attacking. To get the trigger off the 6/6 you have to be able to point to it as the thing that was declared an attacker, and that's where the rules you're citing fall apart.
Re: Theros: Beyond Death spoilers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fox
We're talking in circles here. Your rules interpretation is fine but there is a difference between what attacked and what is tapped and attacking. To get the trigger off the 6/6 you have to be able to point to it as the thing that was declared an attacker, and that's where the rules you're citing fall apart.
You point to your 6/6 in step .1m. When you're getting under the bridge you point to it as still-a-2/2 in .1c. It doesn't fall apart if you just do what the rules say to do, unless you're doubting they're the same object.
Re: Theros: Beyond Death spoilers
Re: Theros: Beyond Death spoilers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cire
This titan cycle is still looking pretty good for masknought
Re: Theros: Beyond Death spoilers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FourDogsinaHorseSuit
This titan cycle is still looking pretty good for masknought
Something like . . .
4 Stiffle
4 Mask
2 Trickbind
4 Dreadnaught
8 Titans
4 BS
4 Ponder
4 FOW
4 Daze
4 Other counter/kill/discard/etc
18 Lands
Re: Theros: Beyond Death spoilers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cire
Something like . . .
4 Stiffle
4 Mask
3 Torpor Orb
4 Dreadnaught
8 Titans
4 BS
4 Ponder
4 FOW
4 Daze
4 Other counter/kill/discard/etc
18 Lands
Let's see what other titans there are.
Re: Theros: Beyond Death spoilers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FourDogsinaHorseSuit
Let's see what other titans there are.
I mean sure but I don't think you'll be running more than 8 of them regardless?
Re: Theros: Beyond Death spoilers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cire
I mean sure but I don't think you'll be running more than 8 of them regardless?
Yeah, but the colors matter and there's a 9/8 flying trample and a 7/7 trample waiting their turn.
Re: Theros: Beyond Death spoilers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cire
...
3 mana flusterstorm that includes creatures and abilities?
3 mana is a lot, and flusterstorm is way stronger in counter wars. I don't think it will see any legacy play.
Re: Theros: Beyond Death spoilers
https://i.imgur.com/TjROkyc.jpg
A little surprised to see no one having mentioned this yet. While Relic of Progenitus is the clear comparison, this card at least somewhat interestingly compares.
First, you get to hit something of you choice off the ETB trigger. Next, it takes no additional mana to get their whole 'Yard. Also, it does not hit your own 'Yard. Clear downside though, it does not cycle if you actually use it to eat their 'Yard. Just another interesting option. I think actually this is sort of nearer to something like Nihil Spellbomb except, of course, you don't need :B: at all, but in the sense of it's "speed" of use only not having the CA "baked in."
Re: Theros: Beyond Death spoilers
nice one. it blanks Grove of the Burnillows if PFire is in the graveyard when this is played
Re: Theros: Beyond Death spoilers
Titans are just the new ”Hunted”. Torpor Orb is still the answer
Re: Theros: Beyond Death spoilers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Poron
Titans are just the new ”Hunted”. Torpor Orb is still the answer
I kind of like the Rakdos titan in a BR pox list. Weaker than Uro, but a better role player for pox than Uro is to control imo. 3 mana for 1 card and a healing salve is too much. What _could_ be nice is the combo of Emry, Lurker of the Loch to feed Escape with Uro and get it in the graveyard.
https://www.mtgpics.com/pics/big/thb/221.jpg
In other news, this is a cool mana rock:
https://www.mtgpics.com/pics/big/thb/231.jpg
New planeswalker
https://www.mtgpics.com/pics/big/thb/257.jpg
Re: Theros: Beyond Death spoilers
Re: Theros: Beyond Death spoilers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BenBleiweiss
I'm glad this exists.
1 toughness thought :(
Re: Theros: Beyond Death spoilers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tylert
I'm glad this exists.
1 toughness thought :(
And that tax isn't going to do much except delay an immediate activation one turn. Only really good when your opponent is on Super Friends.
The real stinker is that it's one-sided, though. Fucking Wizards, when will they learn?
Re: Theros: Beyond Death spoilers
Re: Theros: Beyond Death spoilers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BenBleiweiss
I would say it's the primary plan for such a deck because an ETB I win is better than a "next time I draw"
Actually, because it triggers on "equal to" you can combo with leveler and he fully protected from removal.... So tooth and nail?
