[Deck] Pox

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Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies

Chalice isn't a two-drop. Once it's off the stack, it has a CMC of zero, due to the fact that it has double X in its mana cost and X=0 anytime the card is not on the stack. ^___^

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I can't believe I said that...:wink: I was obviously tired!

I don't run Contamination MD, I have 2 in SB. I think it is good against random non-black decks, and you know there are a lot of random decks in legacy! Like I said, Oppression makes you win against MU that are already easily winnable. I don't see a High Tide deck getting through 4 Duress, 4 Hymn, 8 Poxes, 4 Sinkhole...

You were absolutely right about the top. After a few playtests I can say that it is AWESOME. I play 2 of them.

I play 3 Smokestack as well, with 3 Crucible and 3 Nether Spirit to support it. It is very strong. In all the games I played it was an autowin card.

I've considered every suggestion posted here, but having proxied up and played the deck since the second that smallpox was spoiled, I'm almost certain that the original build is still the best...

20 Swamp/(18 Swamp/2 Mishra's Factory)
4 Wasteland

4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Pox
4 Smallpox

4 Innocent Blood
3 Nether Spirit
3 Chimeric Idol
2 Phyrexian Totem/2 Crucible of Worlds

I really think that the main issues to be sorted out are ...

2 Crucible + 2 Factories vs. 2 Totem + 2 Swamp

and the possible inclusion of Infest for aggro heavy metas.

High casting cost cards like Smokestack really hurt the deck's consistency. Yes, Smokestack, Top and such are very powerful effects. I won't disagree with that. But they are also very slow and mana intensive, in a deck that tends to mana screw itself down to two lands pretty much every other game.

And card drawers like Phyrexian Arena and Night's Whispers just don't work well.

Of course, this could all change the moment that Wizards decides to print a halfway decent black card drawer that doesn't eat away at your life total. But until then, losing life to draw cards combined with all the life loss from Pox and Smallpox and the aggro weenie rushes this deck often faces have bitten me on too many occasion. There are far too many games where I finally stabilized at 1 or 2 life and came back to win for me to even consider trying Night's Whispers again.

It would be helpful if people who have tried both could weight in where they stand on the Crucible vs. Totem issue.

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Originally Posted by Clark Kant

It would be helpful if people who have tried both could weight in where they stand on the Crucible vs. Totem issue.

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I would use both. The thing to keep in mind is that they actually perform very different functions in this deck, despite superficial functional appearances. Totem is a win condition that should be turning sideways in the Red Zone whenever you have the mana and board free to do so. Crucible enables Wastelock (tm) as well as recurring Cabal Pits and Factories if you run those. Both allow you to recover more quickly after a Pox, but Totem wants to attack post Pox more than anything else, so...run both.

This deck has been waiting for a rise to tier one for some time now. I think it deserves it. We should all play this at the next dual for duals or something. It will be the blackest brutal tournament. This deck also needs to be moved to the open forum. Aggro Zombies maybe you can collaberate something for a primer and stick it there yourself?

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Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies

I would use both. The thing to keep in mind is that they actually perform very different functions in this deck, despite superficial functional appearances.

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Sorry, I should have explained more. Initially, it was never Crucible that Totem was up against, it was Mishra's Factory and Chimeric Idol.

Both cards are functionally very similar. But I settled on the idol over Totem a long time ago because it can deal with weenie attackers without costing you permanents, and without requiring you to leave three mana untapped. It also lets you continue to attack all while casting out your disruption. So three idols are an autoinclude. The same for Nether Spirit. It is a nutty good card since it lets you discard it to Pox or Small Pox and comes into play without paying any casting cost, which is a MASSIVE MASSIVE tempo boost.

So there were already by 6 attackers.

The deck really does not want to devote more than 8 slots to aggro cards. Now I just needed to decide on the last 2. If running Cruicible, Mishra's Factory is automatically superior imho, because once again, it can block without requiring you to lose permanents, and without forcing you to leave a ton of mana untapped. So that's why it seemed to be up against Cruicible but it never was.

If you think I should run 10 aggro cards, and have ideas on something else I should cut instead, I would love to hear your input.

Just so you remember this, Idol and Factory together = no synergy.

I dropped Idol when Totem was printed. He's strictly inferior to the 5/5 face smasher.

How is idol strictly inferior? We're playing in a format packed with creatures afterall.

In a format full of 2/2s, Idol can block them, hold back an army of them from attacking, or attack through them. It can even trade with 3/3s. If you try to block a 3/3 or even a 2/2 with Totem, you're likely to most of your board. Plus totem costs 3 mana to make into an attacker. You can pox or smallpox the turn after idol and still attack with idol. Not only can you not use disruption the turn you attack with totem, but if you play pox or smallpox saccing one of your lands too, you often times can't activate totem next turn either.

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Originally Posted by Clark Kant

How is idol strictly inferior? We're playing in a format packed with creatures afterall.

In a format full of 2/2s, Idol can block them, hold back an army of them from attacking, or attack through them. It can even trade with 3/3s. If you try to block a 3/3 or even a 2/2 with Totem, you're likely to most of your board. Plus totem costs 3 mana to make into an attacker. You can pox or smallpox the turn after idol and still attack with idol. Not only can you not use disruption the turn you attack with totem, but if you play pox or smallpox saccing one of your lands too, you often times can't activate totem next turn either.

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I fully understand the merits of Chimeric Idol but even when he was able to do all the aforementioned he still didnt pull his weight. Its still a needle target, a disenchant, and a swords target. Although he can be activated for free he's really just a 3/3 dude with no evasion. I had problems keeping him alive with that body too. As a 5/5 Totem pretty much survives all encounters in the red zone. I've sacced 3 land with him out late game pretty easily, crucible makes it not so painfull. In the event that your opponent draws a needle for him at least he can still make mana. Speaking of which, the ability to provide mana makes him all the more usefull in builds running 7-8 pox effects. Phyrexian Totem may not be able to swing as often due to his activation costs, but he has to swing much less as well. Usually twice after playing pox. Mishras Factory replaced Idols role as a cheap blocker/attacker that's immune to pox effects, it works better if you ask me, acting as a mana source then creature secondary. Idol is vanilla and out dated.

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Originally Posted by bane_of_the_living

Mishras Factory replaced Idols role as a cheap blocker/attacker that's immune to pox effects, it works better if you ask me, acting as a mana source then creature secondary.

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I still don't really consider Mishra's Factory a mana source.

A mana source just isn't a mana source if you can't use his mana. Sure he can be used to play some threats. But he is useless at letting you play any of your disruption. And disruption is what this deck is all about.

Say you smallpoxed second turn, happens all the time, and really want to play a second mana source to play the sinkhole you drew. Same with casting Pox, or Hymn or any of this decks disruption. Anyway you look at it, Factory is a threat first and a mana source second. But I guess it's all just semantics. And I certainly still advocate playing 2.

Swords, Needle, and Disenchant hit Totem too you know. Idol has just worked better for me. I guess if I played in more control metas, I would like Totem better. But for me atleast, my threats desperately need to be able to block weenies. Sure you can sac lands to Totem, but that usually means you won't be able to make him a creature again for a while either.

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Originally Posted by Clark Kant

Swords, Needle, and Disenchant hit Totem too you know. Idol has just worked better for me. I guess if I played in more control metas, I would like Totem better. But for me atleast, my threats desperately need to be able to block weenies. Sure you can sac lands to Totem, but that usually means you won't be able to make him a creature again for a while either.

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Factory can do that just fine. Remember that you can declare it as a blocker, then tap it to pump itself. Voila, you're blocking with a 3/3 Factory.

EDIT: As for the ten aggro cards bit, I'd be inclined to think that's overkill, but not by much (and you know what they say about overkill - there's no kill like overkill! Har har har har...). I run nine in my deck - 3 Totems, 3 Factories, and 3 Spirits (I went back to Spirits in the build I posted previously). Keep in mind that you run both Pox and Smallpox, and that it's entirely possible, albeit not terribly bright, to win through those two and a single swing of a Facotry alone. The point with your aggro cards is that you want them to do a few things for you: 1) not die to your own Poxes/Smallpoxes, and 2) kill your opponent in a reasonable amount of time post-Pox. I understand the attraction of adding more, but more is not necessarily better. Running over nine smashers generally means you start eating into your board control cards, which you don't want to do, and if you have to run more than nine men to win, well...no offense, but you probably need to practice more with the deck in an aggressive style. That's another reason Totem is better than Idol, by the way - Totem is far and away the more aggressive of the two cards, with both an evasion of sorts AND a bigger body.

I never said that Factory was bad. That's why I'm running 2.

And I don't understand why you conclude I'm running too many threats. I'm advocating 8 - 2/3 Idol, 3 Spirit, 2/3 Factory

"Keep in mind that you run both Pox and Smallpox, and that it's entirely possible, albeit not terribly bright, to win through those two and a single swing of a Facotry alone."

That actually proves why I think Totem is worse than Idol on many levels. Idol can actually block thus keeping the low life count you have playing this deck as not as vulnerable to an opponents weenie, it doesn't need mana to attack which means you can cast your disruption, your poxes, and attack the same turn, often enough of a blow to finish them off. And it also illustrates why 3 damage a turn is often enough for this deck to win.

But yeah, they're reasons to go with either. I already explained why I run what I do and I'm just going to leave this argument alone.

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Originally Posted by Clark Kant

I never said that Factory was bad. That's why I'm running 2.

And I don't understand why you conclude I'm running too many threats. I'm advocating 8 - 2/3 Idol, 3 Spirit, 2/3 Factory

"Keep in mind that you run both Pox and Smallpox, and that it's entirely possible, albeit not terribly bright, to win through those two and a single swing of a Facotry alone."

That actually proves why I think Totem is worse than Idol on many levels. Idol can actually block thus keeping the low life count you have playing this deck as not as vulnerable to an opponents weenie, it doesn't need mana to attack which means you can cast your disruption, your poxes, and attack the same turn, often enough of a blow to finish them off. And it also illustrates why 3 damage a turn is often enough for this deck to win.

But yeah, they're reasons to go with either. I already explained why I run what I do and I'm just going to leave this argument alone.

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Sounds good to me. Post results as they come in for you, it would be valuable for the thread. As for me, depending on how much studying I get tonight, I may or may not go to a local Legacy tournament tomorrow wielding an updated version of my list (not gonna post it because of all the lurkers on here that'll also go to that tournament...no cheatz 4 u, biatches! ^___^). I f I do end up going, I'll post results here sometimes soon, although you shouldn't expect much from me before Tuesday, since 3 of my 4 finals are on Tuesday and I'm swamped right now. Har har har...swamped...in a deck about MBC...okay, never mind, lame joke.

say you play pox, and your opponent has 2 creatures in play, how many do they have to sacrifice if any, same question for lands and cards to, thanks

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Originally Posted by felix the cat

say you play pox, and your opponent has 2 creatures in play, how many do they have to sacrifice if any, same question for lands and cards to, thanks

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You round up for everything, just like the card says. So, if they have 2 men, 1/3 of two is 2/3 or one. If they have four cards in hand, one third is 4/3 or 1 and 1/3, which rounds up to two.

thanks for clearing that up, im no good at math, haha, so what happens if they have 1 creature, one land, and 1 card in hand?

Everything goes. You round up so 1 rounds up to 3

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Originally Posted by edgewalker

Everything goes. You round up so 1 rounds up to 3

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i thought thats how it worked, thanks

Here is my current list, in an aggro metagame:

MD : 4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra’s Factory
1 Cabal Pit
9 Swamp

3 Pox
4 Smallpox
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Duress
4 Dark ritual
3 Nether Spirit
3 Crucible of Worlds
2 Cursed scroll
2 Chimeric Idol
3 Powder Keg
2 Sensei’s divining top


SB : 2 Pithing Needle
2 Contamination
4 Zuran Orb
4 Leyline of the void
3 Infest


I do hesitate on Cursed scroll, because I don't have enough mana if i have no crucible on my board, and because i have other spells to play. Do you have any suggestions?

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Originally Posted by Sea R Hill

Here is my current list, in an aggro metagame:

MD : 4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra’s Factory
1 Cabal Pit
9 Swamp

3 Pox
4 Smallpox
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Duress
4 Dark ritual
3 Nether Spirit
3 Crucible of Worlds
2 Cursed scroll
2 Chimeric Idol
3 Powder Keg
2 Sensei’s divining top


SB : 2 Pithing Needle
2 Contamination
4 Zuran Orb
4 Leyline of the void
3 Infest


I do hesitate on Cursed scroll, because I don't have enough mana if i have no crucible on my board, and because i have other spells to play. Do you have any suggestions?

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First, I think you have too many colorless mana sources and too few colored ones. Your best replacement for Scrolls then might be Phyrexian Totem because it adds black mana. I'd also drop a few Factories for more Swamps. I'm also not too keen on Duress maindeck in aggro metagames unless you face a lot of the X-stompy varients, in which case it can rip equips and other problem cards. I'd rather run Funeral Charm or Innocent Blood in that slot for extra removal.

For the color problem I usually fix this with extra dark rituals. I don't know if cutting a land as strong as Mishra's factory is a good idea. When I don't need it, I sacrifice it to Pox and keep my swamps.
I think that running both Chimeric Idol AND Phyrexian totem is too much.
I should perhaps run Cabal Therapy instead of duress. It is harder to play but stronger, especially with Nether Spirit.