[Deck] CounterSliver 2.0 (MeatHooks.dec)

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Originally Posted by Jankwolf

There wasnt any tone behind what i said...
If you knew my personality, like mav and pinder do, you'd understand that i wasnt mad or angery or serious in anyway...i was simply stateing a fact...I'm sorry if someone took what i said the wrong way...But my main focus here is to help mav/pinder succeed in their goal. I really want to see them go all the way with this. And With all the tourni reports, it shows the good and the bad...whether its optimal or not...But seriously...copy their decklist card for card and possibly add 2 worships and then test it out...

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Please forgive the man. He has an odd way of being nice to people. For future reference Jankwolf, capital letters are associated with yelling, and yelling is associated with anger. Even if there wasn't a tone, there was more than enough there to imply one. Simmer down, man.

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Originally Posted by Jankwolf

If you go to a tourni with your own homebrew of slivers dont bother posting it unless you take mav's and pinder's decklist

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And I would just like to point out that this is most definitely not true. Please bother posting. Granted, the list is pretty good right now, so most changes probably aren't for the better, but regardless we want to hear about it. Why did you run this instead of that? How did it do? What decks was it useful against? All of this stuff is what we want to hear. And most importantly, we just want people to pick the deck up. The more people are playing this thing, the more tuning we can do.

Yes, it would be nice to have someone take our exact list to a big tourney somehwere and make the top 8 or something. But it would be even better if someone innovated on our list, made some slight changes, and won the whole thing. I'm not adverse to having people tweak our decklist either for their meta or just to try something new. If all we ever did was sit around and not change the decklist on the front page, we could pack up and go home now. Mav and I have already tested that list extensively. The reason the list is up there is to change it. Sometimes it's not always for the better, but regardless, it shows us which direction not to go. Change is good.

Unless that change involves Angel's Grace, of course :tongue:.


Now on to Volt's radical ideas:

@No Dazes: I could see that, I suppose. A lot of times Daze has been pretty dead. Keep in mind though, that ditching them cuts our counter base in half, and leaves us with only 4 Counterspells. Of course, we could always cut daze and add actual Counterspells instead. It would weaken our early game some, but it would strengthen our mid-to-late game. Regardless of what you stick in besides Daze to test, I think it should be some form of control (Engineered Explosives or some similar form of creature control).

@No Talon Slivers: Ummm...you're crazy. Just crazy enough to work, perhaps? Maybe not. I personally think that taking out Talon Sliver is a dumb move, but not for any reasons we haven't already discussed to death. I love the guy, but by all means, prove me wrong. I do think that if we stop running him though, we should look into Victual Sliver or some other 2 mana 2/2 to increase our fat. Or maybe (now that we have 18 land to support Worship and all) we should look into some higher costed Slivers, a la Essence Sliver. Having them as a 2 of couldn't really hurt, no?

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Originally Posted by Pinder

Now on to Volt's radical ideas:

@No Dazes: I could see that, I suppose. A lot of times Daze has been pretty dead. Keep in mind though, that ditching them cuts our counter base in half, and leaves us with only 4 Counterspells. Of course, we could always cut daze and add actual Counterspells instead. It would weaken our early game some, but it would strengthen our mid-to-late game. Regardless of what you stick in besides Daze to test, I think it should be some form of control (Engineered Explosives or some similar form of creature control).

@No Talon Slivers: Ummm...you're crazy. Just crazy enough to work, perhaps? Maybe not. I personally think that taking out Talon Sliver is a dumb move, but not for any reasons we haven't already discussed to death. I love the guy, but by all means, prove me wrong. I do think that if we stop running him though, we should look into Victual Sliver or some other 2 mana 2/2 to increase our fat. Or maybe (now that we have 18 land to support Worship and all) we should look into some higher costed Slivers, a la Essence Sliver. Having them as a 2 of couldn't really hurt, no?

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Taking out Dazes would in fact give us room for a couple Counterspells and a couple of something else.

Shortly after I started playing with the maindeck Worships, I took out the Talons to make room for Winged #3, Harmonic #2, and EC #1. I wasn't really sure how it would work out, but so far I haven't been missing the Talons. I know I still beat Goblins pretty soundly (about 65-35, same as before). And the Talons never were all that great against combo and control, anyway.

Regarding Essence Sliver, I have tried it, and it was pretty meh. It's kind of a "win more" creature.

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Originally Posted by Nytemare

Theory 2:

Well..the only time I really used Frist Striking Slivers was agaisnt the reanimator Deck but it wasn't really neccessary at all.
But whic slivers could we run instead?

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Sidewinder is a Mtenda Herder(1/1 for 1 + flanking). What about Spinneret? Its a 2/2 for 2 and does something, I think. Victual Sliver is also 2/2 for 2 but actually does something, though.

If anything, this deck needs more slivers in play earlier. If it had the capability to develop the sliver game quicker then it could be beastly. This is because the sliver ability is like a virtual haste. You can have creatures in play already, cast a new one, and utilize the ability of the new sliver this turn. In short, more one drops would help.

Also if your going to be dropping a bunch of little slivers into play then the EC count should go up (or become a non-zero number). Calling up a sliver is now going to be more valuable if you already have a bunch of them in play.

Edit: If Talon Sliver is going out then Winged Sliver count should go. Its going to be your only way to break a stalemate and can randomly win you games.

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Originally Posted by xsockmonkeyx

Sidewinder is a Mtenda Herder(1/1 for 1 + flanking). What about Spinneret? Its a 2/2 for 2 and does something, I think. Victual Sliver is also 2/2 for 2 but actually does something, though.

If anything, this deck needs more slivers in play earlier. If it had the capability to develop the sliver game quicker then it could be beastly. This is because the sliver ability is like a virtual haste. You can have creatures in play already, cast a new one, and utilize the ability of the new sliver this turn. In short, more one drops would help.

Also if your going to be dropping a bunch of little slivers into play then the EC count should go up (or become a non-zero number). Calling up a sliver is now going to be more valuable if you already have a bunch of them in play.

Edit: If Talon Sliver is going out then Winged Sliver count should go. Its going to be your only way to break a stalemate and can randomly win you games.

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I'm not sure about Sidewinders, Spinnerets, and Victuals. I think the threat density is fine with 16-17 slivers. I'm not even sure the Talons should come out. This is just a theory, remember. :)

I definitely agree on the last point. If you cut the Talons, you need to run at least 3 Winged, which is what I'm doing.

I offer this experimental list:

4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
1 Savannah
3 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
2 Islands
1 Plains

4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
3 Winged Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
3 Sidewinder Sliver

2 Counterspell
2 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Serum Visions
4 Brainstorm
2 Eladamri's Call

3 Pithing Needle
4 Swords to Plowshares

The Pithing Needles are there in place of Stifle. With 7 one drops it is less likely that you will turn 1 stifle-fetch them.

Flame away!!

I would cut a Sidewinder from the list above, but otherwise it looks like it's worthy of some testing.

I also notice the 2 EC in the main, and yet no Harmonic, not even as a 1-of. I would put in Harmonic before I would put in Sidewinder if I had some way to tutor for it. That thing is just so useful. Of course, it doesn't play nicely with those maindeck Needles, but we could always change those back to being Stifles :wink:.

My reasoning to Harmonic is that its a Sliver for 3 and is not something I want to have in the deck unless Im absolutely sure that its going to be advantageous i.e. multiple artifacts, enchantments + long game (not very likely). To me that's the definition of a sideboard piece.

In most situations Id honestly rather have a Disenchant. The 2 Dazes in the deck were actually Disenchants but I knew no one would take that one sitting down.

BTW, flanking is underrated. Not by much, but enough.

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Originally Posted by Volt

I don't like the tone of the last few posts. Let's not discourage people from posting results or trying deck lists that differ slightly from the Mav/Pinder version.

I'll say it again... I think running precisely 1 EC is a good thing, but not crucial to the deck.

Earlier, I hinted that I had a couple of other fairly radical suggestions for changes to the deck. They're not really suggestions at this point, so much as theories that I am working to prove/disprove. I'm going to share them now for (calm, rational) discussion:

Theory #1: This deck doesn't need Daze. We already have cheap/free counterspells in the form of Stifle and FoW with which to disrupt our opponent's game plan.

Theory #2: Talon Sliver is unnecessary. Plated Sliver serves largely the same purpose, while being cheaper. Also, maindeck Worship answers the same sort of things that Talon Sliver answers, only more effectively.

Let the fun begin. Only, please don't regurgitate the standard explanations that we have been giving for these cards to this point. I'm aware of the original reasoning for the inclusion of these cards. I would like to prove or disprove these theories through actual testing.

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O.K. Volt, let the fun begin....did you do any testing before you post this idea? if you did, how did it go?
If you would cut the Daze and Talon, what is your decklist then?

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Originally Posted by swordoffireandice

O.K. Volt, let the fun begin....did you do any testing before you post this idea? if you did, how did it go?
If you would cut the Daze and Talon, what is your decklist then?

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First, here's the decklist:

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
2 Island
1 Plains

4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
3 Winged Sliver
2 Harmonic Sliver

2 Worship

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
2 Counterspell
1 Eladamri's Call


I have playtested it quite a bit against Goblins, and have found that the removal of Daze and Talon Sliver had virtually no effect on the win percentage. Based solely on this, I feel fairly comfortable saying that Talon Sliver is not as important as we previously thought. I'm not yet comfortable drawing any conclusions about Daze, though. More play-testing needs to be done against a wide variety of decks.

I know this may seem like vague idea but...Why not use Worldy Tutor...Reason behind it is...it only costs one green to play...And the fact that it is put on top of your deck is null since you can cast it at the end of your opponents turn...and it makes more sence if you are only planning on running one copy...Oh and you can draw into a creature you placed on top of the deck...you get a creature and a draw spell with a cantrip for two...Just a thought.

You're not the first one to think of that. It's been suggested. Here's the post I made about it last time:

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Originally Posted by Pinder

Worldly Tutor makes you lose your next draw, or spend an extra card (that should be spent digging into something else) to avoid losing that draw. Either way, you're losing a card. The problem with EC is that it costs 2, so you can't play it first turn, and it also loses you a turn when you play it, either if you tap out during your turn, or leave the mana open to play it at the end of theirs. Either way, it's mana not spent playing a Sliver. In the long run, I see EC as being the better of the two, as the drawback becomes less and less significant the further you move past two mana, but the drawback on Worldly Tutor stays the same.

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The thing with Wordly Tutor is, the 'on top of your library' drawback isn't quite negated by playing it at the end of your opponents turn. You still lose a draw. And if you're playing a cantrip to not lose that draw by drawing into the sliver first, you've likely spent two (or more mana) and two cards to do the same thing that two mana and one card (in the case of EC) would do for you. EC at end of turn gets you the Sliver in hand, as well as your next draw.

You know what I just realized, though? Eladamri's Call is also a shuffle effect. It never occured to me before but that might be a golden quality I (and Mav) have been overlooking. It could accomplish largely the same thing as Brainstorm + Fetchland does. Imagine playing a brainstorm to nab, say, a Force of Will, putting two lands on top, then playing EC to shuffle away the badness and fetch whatever Sliver you need. And all that can be done at the end of your opponents turn. Spending two cards (BS and EC) to gain two cards (FoW and Sliver) maintains card parity, and the shuffling helps improve our card quality. I'm not saying it automatically fits in the deck now, but it's (again) something worth taking (another) look at.

Wow so much to cover, here it goes:

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Sidewinder is a Mtenda Herder(1/1 for 1 + flanking)

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And Mtenda Herder is what kids? A TERRIBLE CARD!.

Didn't we already have a long a drawn out conversation about why flanking is useless in this deck?

If it gave all slivers bushido 1, this card would be freaking awesome.

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@ mav: no one really cares (aside from u) about the call(s) in the deck its just for meta preferances(in my case) cause at the moment i have no goblins or combo or even thresh in my meta and i see no need for worship in my maindeck. and pinder was saying that if you dont like dont play it. its just a metagame thing. so stop wining about it and move the hell on. however i do agree with angels grace. i mean come on.

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So by metagame preference you mean that your metagame is so scruby you can run whatever you want? Even if it is suboptimal. Okay in that case why not up the list to 87 cards, make it 5 color and then run sliver queen, door to nothingness, and coalition victory.

@ Worldy Tutor, Well its card disadvantage so umm... NO!:mad:

@ No talon sliver: Seriously WTF!!! are you high? first strike dominates any creature deck out there. With it and worship your should rarely lose a match to gobs.

@ No daze: If force and stifle are 4 ofs and we add in at least 2 counterspells (of some kind not neccessarily counterspell itself) I could see this being possible. But I still think that daze is worth running, Free counterspells are the 5T0N3 C0LD NUTZ.

I don't mean to be so critical of everyone, but I keep hearing the same dissmissed suggestions that we have gone over time and time again. If you haven't read the N&D thread, you shouldn't be posting on this thread. We already covered many of these topics there.

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Originally Posted by Maverick676

So by metagame preference you mean that your metagame is so scruby you can run whatever you want?

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The only thing 'scruby' I see here is your spelling. Chill.

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Originally Posted by Maverick676

Okay in that case why not up the list to 87 cards, make it 5 color and then run sliver queen, door to nothingness, and coalition victory.

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Head, meet desk. You guys are gonna be good friends.

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Originally Posted by Maverick676

And Mtenda Herder is what kids? A TERRIBLE CARD.

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You do, however, have a point there. Let me try and translate it into non-flame. Since this deck mainly sits on the defensive until it up and wins, First Strike is typically much more useful than Flanking (a purely aggressive ability).

Of course, Flanking stacks, which means that if we ran Sidewinder Sliver we could afford to be more agressive because we would be much more secure on the attack. Just saying. Of course, this would leave us far more vulnerable to a responding alpha strike. Mostly the best thing Sidewinder Sliver has going for it is that, like Plated Sliver, it costs 1 mana. This would help smooth out our curve a bit, as well as providing cheap monstrosities (3/3 untargetable double flanking flyer for W sounds pretty good, no?) in the late game. It just has a far less relevant ability.

Of course, we probably shouldn't include or dismiss them until we know more about how they might preform when paired with the other cards in the deck. If only we had some method whereby we determine this...some sort of test.....where you play with them......:rolleyes:

Dont be such a negative nancy, Mav, Sidewider is better than you think (and so is the Herder for that matter). Ignore the Flanking bonus and focus on the fact that its a one drop sliver that isnt metallic.

BTW, Flanking is underrated just enough for your opponant to underestimate it.

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Originally Posted by Pinder

(3/3 untargetable double flanking flyer for W sounds pretty good, no?) in the late game. It just has a far less relevant ability.

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3/3 untargetable first striking flyers sound better.

Flanking is totally useless in this deck, by the time you should be attacking your slivers are usually bigger than any other creature on the board. So what does flanking add to this deck? Nothing.

Look people first strike is a much more powerful ability than flanking. If flanking worked like bushido it would be a different story, however flanking is a purely offensive ability. Meathooks does not have the ability to put the opponent under enough pressure to force them to hold back creatures to block, against goblins this kind of strategy will cause you a match loss. Many times your opponent simply cannot block becuase of flying so flanking becomes useless anyway. First strike on the other hand is always relevant, since you will almost always be blocking at some point in the game.

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Originally Posted by Maverick676

3/3 untargetable first striking flyers sound better.

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I was focusing on the fact that it costed only W, not on the fact that it had flanking. I'll admit that flanking is largely irrelevant. But it's more relevant than any of the abilities on any of the other 1-drops (excluding Plated) that we have. Let's go over what's available to us at 1 mana:

+0/+1 (Good, that's why they're in the deck).
Flanking (Essentially useless, but hey, it's a 1 drop)
Milling your opponent (Useless. There are better one drops (like Sidewinder)).
Absolutely nothing, and dies to shatterstorm. (Um, no. Metallic just doesn't cut it).

So, the only better 1 drop for this deck is Plated Sliver. Too bad we can't run more than 4, huh? Until they print the Sliver that costs G and gives everything +2/+2, we don't have any better options for a one drop.

Listen Mav. You're right. I don't think we should take out Talon Sliver just to put in Sidewinder Sliver. But if it turns out that the deck can operate without Talons (I'm doubtful, but it's worth a shot), another one drop might not neccesarily be a bad thing (even with only a semi-relevant ability).

But most of all, try and be at least a little diplomatic about it. I'm getting tired of dousing your flames. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Pinder

But most of all, try and be at least a little diplomatic about it. I'm getting tired of dousing your flames. :rolleyes:

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Diplomacy is for people without talon slivers.


If you guys want a one drop sliver shrieking is a better choice. Its ability gives the deck some reach, i.e. we can win through a creature stalemate or worship ect. Not to mention it pitches to FOW.

Hmm...solid points all around. I'm still up for Talon Sliver being in, though, just so everyone knows.

Anyone thought of running quilled sliver??
Its like ping-o-matic...it gets rid of stupid one 1/1....Its helps your match up agaisnt goblins get even better...As well as other andom stuff...Hell it gives SLivers have sorta a mog fanatic ability....Stupid threshold bears go away...medling mage goes away...And did i mention goblins? If you have 6 slivers out you can pretty much kill every creature in the format...that is if the time called for it...

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Originally Posted by Jankwolf

Anyone thought of running quilled sliver??
Its like ping-o-matic...it gets rid of stupid one 1/1

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You know what else gets rid of attacking 1/1s? Blocking with a 2/2 first striker.

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Originally Posted by Jankwolf

Stupid threshold bears go away...medling mage goes away...

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If they're stupid enough to swing into 4 or more Slivers, the bear was going to die anyway (especially if they have first strike). The same holds true for the Mages, only your opponent is more stupid for having swung into you in that case.

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Originally Posted by Jankwolf

If you have 6 slivers out you can pretty much kill every creature in the format...

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If we have 6 Slivers out, we're winning. No need for fancy tap effects there.

Essentially, the only time Quilled Sliver would be useful is on the attack, to kill blocking creatures before damage goes on the stack. In every defensive situation, however, why would you tap your creatures to kill an attacking creature, when you could simply block with about half as many (your dudes are almost always 2 power, vs 1 damage from Quilled and friends), and kill the creature while leaving your men untapped?

So, if Quilled Sliver is most useful on the attack, it's about as useful as Sidewinder Sliver is to this deck. Only it costs 1 more mana and doesn't stack. I'd rather have flanking than 'rangestrike', personally.