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Gob fish just doesnt seem great at all. Personally I think counterslivers will start to be played a lot because it can beat goblins, while having a gg against combo. It really depends how the meta turns out because people might be having boards like this.
3 Krosan Grip
4 EE
4 Brightstone Ritual
4 Chalice
Okay, here's a question for all you Goblin experts.
In screwing around with various R/B Goblin builds, I was briefly testing a version with 2 maindeck Therapy and 2 maindeck Pyrokinesis. I was playing against an unknown opponent with an unknown deck. I lost the die roll, 14-12. I kept the following hand:
Bloodstained Mire
Wasteland
Aether Vial
Goblin Lackey
Goblin Matron
Cabal Therapy
Pyrokinesis
My opponent also kept, then played Taiga, Birds of Paradise, go. I untapped and drew a Mogg Fanatic. So now my hand was:
Bloodstained Mire
Wasteland
Aether Vial
Goblin Lackey
Goblin Matron
Cabal Therapy
Pyrokinesis
Mogg Fanatic
My question is, what would you do here?
I played the Mire, fetched the Badlands, and Therapied for Survival, thinking that if this was indeed Survival and I hit it and the opponent had Witnesses I could Pyrokinesis the Bird. I hit a Survival, then Pyrokinesis'd the Birds of Paradise pitching the Matron as my opponent indeed had two Eternal Witnesses in hand he could play next turn. Next turn I drew into a basic Mountain, played it, played the Fanatic and the Lackey, and flashed the Therapy with the Fanatic for Eternal Witness. This would give me two swings with the Lackey to pick up a Goblin.
I talked with the guy (Nice guy, whoever he was) after the game and he suggested he'd have played the Lackey even knowing the deck was probably Survival on the chance the deck didn't have one, preparing to Pyrokinesis away all his opponent's threats next turn since there probably wouldn't be sufficient mana for a Flametongue Kavu. Then after connecting with the Lackey, if Survival did hit, he could stall for time by Wastelanding the Taiga.
A third person I mentioned this situation to suggested merely fetching a Badlands, dropping the Vial, and passing, preparing to massively disrupt the manabase next turn with the Wasteland, Vialing out the Fanatic, and casting the Lackey.
All of these seem like pretty solid strategies.
Thoughts?
Had I had the same read as you, I would've played Therapy, Pyrokinesis pitching Fanatic, turn 2 Wasteland, Lackey to try to close the deal. If I wasn't sure what he was playing, on the draw against RG I'd always go with Vial since Lackey is too unlikely to connect unless it comes out at the EoT. And you had the tools to make it connect with Pyro and Fanatic. You needed two connections though, something Vial would again slightly alleviate as it gives you two strong midgame plans.
So yea, if I was hellbent on him playing Survival, I would've Cabal Therapied it away and saved the Matron. But yea, Lackey connecting after his 3-drop with you still having something scary in hand seemed unlikely enough so that's immediately out.
I think i would have droped a turn 1 lackey but thats just me. Next turn if he dropped survival i would waste, play fanatic, shoot and swing. Would you mind posting the list as i now own 3 badlands for the deck (still 2 plateaus short of the white version and i want to get this up and running ASAP).
You obviously played it perfectly but its nice that your hand gave you enough options. Theres no other deck in the format other than survival that opens with Taiga, BoP. That just shows the disgusting resiliency goblins has at its disposal.
Since there's no expectation he will play a Wasteland, your worthwhile options are these:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
1. Fetch->Badlands->Therapy, Pyro the Bird.
2a. Waste his Taiga.
2b. Pyrokinesis his bird, Waste his Taiga.
3. Pyrokinesis his Bird, Fetch->Badlands->Lackey.
4. Pyrokinesis his Bird, Fetch->Badlands->Vial.
5. Fetch->Badlands->Fanatic his Bird.
6. Fetch for Badlands, play Vial.
I would probably just play Vial, go. He doesn't have any 3 mana spells I care about - all the good stuff is 2 (which I can't stop him from getting to) and 4, which he won't get to see when I start blowing up his mana. The best thing he could do is drop Survival+activate once. Meh.
I would play:
T1: Vial, go.
T2: untap, Vial in Fanatic, kill his bird, Waste his land, and Therapy him, putting him back to 1 mana in all probability. You'll let him have a turn on 3 mana but he has nothing to Witness back unless his second land is a fetch, so he probably won't even do that, instead dicking around with Survival. If he was super lucky he drew Uktabi Orangutan and that sucks but what are those odds.
T3: put Vial's trigger on the stack, Vial in Lackey, kick Vial up to 2 counters, draw a card, and take it from there. You still have Pyrokinesis to clear the way for Lackey and hopefully something to do with your mana this turn.
Quote:
Don't like sharpshooter, I would cut it for the fourth fanatic.
No! Sharpshooter is very important. Before ETW was printed I understand you cut one Sharp but now you can't. You must have a solution against TES or charbelcher ETW. He help too against all aggro.Quote:
I suppose it's possible. The Sharpshooter could become either a Tinkerer or a 2nd Therapy.
You should be play one sharp and one skirk just for test. skirk help for kill more fastly or in combo with sharp or/and SGC.
It is with skirk and sharp help I win always against ten 1/1 goblin token.
SGC help against combo deck ? a 5CC cost ? No it is lackey why help against combo. With lackey, SGC and pile in hand you exactly put 20 in turn 3. But with warchief you can kill with matron shearch pile.Quote:
I wouldn't cut SGC, it's key for beating your worst matchups, which are combo decks.
wow. What is this technique ?Quote:
3 Krosan Grip
4 EE
4 Brightstone Ritual
4 Chalice
Nothing against aggro ? Or just krosian for destroy jitte ? Brightstone Ritual in mirror when opponant play pyrokinesis and kill in response all our goblins (I know it is goblin IN PLAY).
Just krosan grip against Faerie Stompy ? So you can't win.
EE against ******** ? You want keep vial and pile in play.
Just calice against combo ? So you loose solidarity, salvager and aluren without pillar.
1- You may be play against a survival. So he play other creature and you can keep pyrokinesis for after kill more creature.Quote:
Originally Posted by tanoscope
2- Put a lackey is not good because you haven't interessant gob to put (SGC, ringleader or warchief).
3- put a vial since you can kill bird with fanatic in turn 2, play therapy and put lackey in EOT or in your turn for pay flashback of therapy. It is interesant but no against survival
4- In my monoR version I put fanatic in turn one for kill BoP or elves when I can in turn one.
5- Without survival he cant win so play therapy in turn one is really good. But
it it the problem of therapy, we want play it in turn one but in goblin if you have not a turn one vial, lackey you have too slowly. Even fanatic help for pile and gempalm.
So if you are sure play against survival, play therapy turn one. Otherwise play vial and hope he play creature for kill they with pyrokinesis. If it is my game I play therapy I think. So I can see if it is a survival, a lftl deck or an other deck and adapte your strategy.
puddn -> go to goblin fish
I was kidding around with a board like that. The ritual would be for EtW anyways.
Anyone ever tried Nevinyrral's Disk in Goblins? Like, seriously tried it?
It seems like in matches packing hordes of Goblin hate, it's becoming too difficult to outrace them consistently. Disk would allow Goblins to go control a bit, dropping the disk on turn 4, popping it at the end of the opponent's turn on turn 5, then exploding like only Goblins can on turn 6. Stalling until turn 5 has never been a huge problem with Goblins, given Pyrokinesis and Rishadan Port and the like.
What Disk can do:
Against anything: Sweeps every problematic artifact, enchantment, or creature you come across. This ranges from Plague to Moat to Jitte to Silver Knight to Ghostly Prison to Tarmogoyf to Crystalline-backed Sliver Hordes to whatever.
Against Black-based aggro-control: Can sweep Plagues, Jittes, and the guys carrying them in one fell swoop. Except for BW versions packing Vindicate, most can't stop the Disk once it's on the board.
Against Enchantress: Kills every enchantment on the board, on top of that stupid Argothian Enchantress you have no other way to get rid of.
Against Stax: Kaboom. The only problem here is that against faster, Geddoning versions, on occasion you might struggle to get the Disk out. Kills Bridges, Ghostly Prisons, Crucibles, Smokestacks, Exalteds, Magus of the Tabernacles, Sylvan Libraries, you name it.
Against Countersliver: Wrath. Of. God. It might get countered if they expect it, though.
Disk also has the option of allowing you to play mono-red if you choose, allowing you to improve your mirror match drastically and play more combo-hate cards.
disk for combo ? All combo kill before the turn 4 and the only solution can help you is your mana denial so if you are all tapped for put it you certainly dead the next turn (may be except against aluren/salvager but after side they break a deed before make the combo so it is the same). If you survive until the turn 5 against ETW you win. And if it is a big problem put one sharp (in SB if you want), you can also kill all tokens in turn 5 and kill they in turn 3 (with lackey+warchief+matron or skirk+warchief+sharp) and more regulary in turn 4 (with warchief in turn 3 and matron + sharp in turn 4 or with two matron and one vial).Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
And you side in disk against combo ? For me it is impossible. Look my table of side :
- TES : +4 chalice +4 pyrokinésie +3 pillar
- CRET belcher : +4 chalice +4 pyrokinésie
- IGG : +4 chalice +3 pillar +2 REB
- solidarity : +4 chalice +3 pillar +2 REB
-aluren : +3 pillar + 2 REB
-salvager : +3 pillar +2 pyrokinésie
So I have 5 card to side in against combo-controle, add other card is bad for the aggro tactic (and it is important against they)
But I'm agree it is an interessant option against countersliver, stax, enchantress and new black aggressive deck. I have anarchy against countersliver (crystalline, sinew, plated), enchantress (her only threat : confinement) and stax (ghostly prison) and kill also. They help me one turn before disk and erase only the opponant table.
Against black (and plague in general) I accept the loose when have two plague in play. I prefer play one king and shearch it with king. I win the first game and I try kill a second time fastly and put one king for resist to the first plague. But it is a match-up when you have a better solution than me. The problem is the match is completely dependant to the opponant's hand and it is the same with and without disk I think.
When you play monoR you have normaly slots for sharp and king and you can put they in SB, play they in one and you have potentially 5 exemplary (but I hope you know that ;)).
So I have king to plague anarchy to Moat, Silver Knight, Ghostly Prison to Crystalline.
And tarmogoyf ? Thanks to you. It is my overture :). But I prefer separe my response and my explication about my tarmogoyf adaptation. So I continue in my next post.
This card (a remake of Lhurgoyf) with an unpronounceable name was edited in Future Sight and autorised in tournament in last June, 20th. Quickly Tarmogoyf was integrate in ********. And after see this power I see adaptation of deck for tarmogoyf (gro, WUBG fish, tarmogeddon).Quote:
:1: :g:
Tarmogoyf
Creature - lhurgoyf
Tarmogoyf's power is equal to the number of card types among cards in all graveyards and its toughness is equal to that number plus 1. (the card types are artifact, creature, enchantment, instant, land, planeswalker, sorcery, and tribal.)
*/1+*
Personally I understand quickly the problem and test a lot against UGR treshgro (4 mongoose, 4 tarmogoyf, 4 quirion dryad). Have always a fetch and a cantrip in graveyarf so the tarmogoyf come into play obligatory in 2/3. But in fact ***** alway try to counter your turn one lackey and vial so tarmo is 3/4 in turn 2 and 4/5 if the cantrip is a serum vision. And no matter if the tarmo is "only" 2/3 because the only burn you play are fanatic and gempalm. And they come in grave (so boost the tarmo) before cause damage. And he attacks in turn 3 and become an aggressive deck with a big back-up. So It is impossible to win.
And I alway loose because all sideboard solution I know in my monoR are bad :
-chalice @ 1 : my old solution. They block the half of the deck. But before with it in table the ***** player can't have quickly the ******** so I have all my time for put goblins. Now with a tarmogoyf 3/4 in turn 2 you prefer play goblin in begin of game for try to kill it.
-tormod's crypt : only remove her graveyard when you have always creature and artifact and regulary a wasteland is bad.
-pyrostitac pillar : I never like this card and now you want put a swarm for hope kill the tarmo it is out of question.
-pyrokinesis : let out two cards when have 10 or 11 counter in opponant hand are really bad.
-Nevinyrral's Disk : too long. And can be counter by daze, FOW, counterspell and daze.
-red elemental blast : it is alway the same utilisation : help to play my spells. It is the better card to side in with my old version.
-pyrokinesis + REB : ca avait la gueule d'une bonne solution. Sauf que même si je gére un tarmogoyf j'ai pas gagné pour autant. Or sortir autant de gob et user autant de carte pour gérer un tarmogoyf c'est enrayer la mécanique plus qu'au raisonnable.
One week before I speak about gobbo one-slot and I think about sparkmith. I put in and test and when I come in play in turn 2 or 3 he can change a game because he put one or two damage in plus than gempalm.
So that it my version when tarmo was autorised in legacy :
13 mountain
4 rishadan port
4 wasteland
4 aether vial
4 goblin lackey
4 mogg fanatic
4 goblin piledriver
4 gempalm incinerator
4 goblin matrone
4 goblin warchief
4 goblin ringleader
2 Sieg-gang commander
1 skirk prospector
1 sparkmith
1 goblin tinkerer
1 goblin sharpshooter
1 goblin king
SB : 4 chalice of the void
SB : 4 pyrokinesis
SB : 3 pyrostatic pillar
SB : 2 red elemental blast
SB : 2 anarchy
In 06/23 in a small tournament I play against a treshgro in two consecutive round (final round and in top) and win 4/0. I win because my opponant play only 3 tarmo, sacrifice one in a mistake, I have a incredible game (T1 vial, T2 vial EOT lackey, T3 tarmo block lackey and I put one other lackey, one sparkmith and cycle a gempalm ^^) and because he have quite bad hand and it is a new player. But it is one of my more difficults matchs I have never played.
And in the last big (+/- 40 players) tournament in Paris, in 06/30 have 16 tarmogoyf in the top8 :o. I don't know if you are the same problem but the card it is may be played in all the world. So I must try a good solution or change deck if I want continue to win.
So now I test this version :
6 mountain
3 bloodstained mire
3 wooded foothills
2 plateau
4 rishadan port
4 wasteland
4 aether vial
3 sword to plowshare
4 goblin lackey
4 mogg fanatic
4 goblin piledriver
4 gempalm incinerator
4 goblin matrone
4 goblin warchief
4 goblin ringleader
1 skirk prospector
1 goblin sharpshooter
1 Sieg-gang commander
SB : 4 chalice of the void
SB : 4 pyrokinesis
SB : 3 pyrostatic pillar
SB : 2 red elemental blast
SB : 2 disenchant
I add a land because with fetch and waste in plateau I need more land. With stp sparkmith is out-of-date, disenchant is a better solution than king against plague and if I play disenchant I test to cut tinkerer. And finally I never like the second SGC.
pyrokinesis is really essential against FS and ETW and is better than stp in the mirror so I test but I wannot cut they.
stp + disenchant need help and give to you a better response than anarchy (except for crystalline).
Do you have the same problem with tarmogoyf ? What is our solutions ?
My solution to Tarmogoyf is Terror.
No, I'm not kidding. I'm currently running a B/G/R build with 3 maindeck Terror and 1 maindeck Hooligan, with playsets of Cabal Therapy and Engineered Explosives in the sideboard. Explosives in 3-color answers Plague, Tarmogoyf, and Empty the Warrens all rather nicely.
For reference,
2 Mountain
3 Badlands
2 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Aether Vial
3 Terror
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Mogg Fanatic
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Tin-Street Hooligan
SB:
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Engineered Explosives
3 Duress/Pithing Needle/Tormod's Crypt/Krosan Grip
Can I ask why StP is worse than Terror in terms of splash? I can see Therapy being great addition, but Terror(or smother, for that matter) seems bit weak. Also, is 3c mana base affordable with full set of Port and Wasteland?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Also, Meekstone, along with StP, has been the answer of coice in my team's Goblin SB. It's been pretty solid so far.
(Shrug) Black provides Therapy and White doesn't. The only other white card you would possibly want to run that Green can't give you identical or better versions of might be Armageddon, and meh. Goblins likey mana.Quote:
Originally Posted by C.P.
To counterpoint, you don't lose a lot by running Terror over Swords to Plowshares. Let's look at the list of things commonly played in Legacy that Terror can't get rid of but Swords to Plowshares can.
Blue: There aren't any. Worthy of note, however, is that Terror is about ten times better than Swords to Plowshares against Faerie Stompy due to Chalice-1 frequency. (Unless they drop a Juggernaut, but oh well.)
Red: Goblin Lackey, arguably, as Terror can be too slow. However, you generally don't want to search up dual lands in a Goblin mirror anyway.
Green: None I can think of.
White: Unless people started running Paladin En-Vec or White Knight recently, none I can think of. Possibly Mother of Runes due to the fact that STP can kill it before it gets a chance to use its ability, but you can always just Terror (Or Gempalm) it in response to its ability being used.
Black: Okay, everything, excluding Order of the Ebon Hand. Black creatures tend to eat it to Pyrokinesis and Engineered Explosives, however. Confidant even eats it to Mogg Fanatic. Tombstalker could suck a lot, though.
Artifact: All of them, but do people run Artifact Creatures anymore? Outside of the rogue Duplicant or Triskelion in Survival, or the occasional Juggernaut in a Chalice deck, they're rare nowadays. Besides, Tin-Street Hooligan takes care of them. Mishra's Factory turning into an Assembly Worker is probably the most threatening artifact creature in the format, and Wasteland and Port are there for that.
Multicolored: Mystic Enforcer. The biggie.
If you're dead sold on Swords, a 4-Color version could be made to make EE take out Moat (Take -that-, Enchantress.), or a RWG version could be made to do the same thing. I just find Therapy to be insane in Goblins from testing, and running 3 colors with a quad of EE's gives you outs to your biggest hate cards (Plague, Solitary Confinement, Jitte, you name it), while giving you answers to all the Empty the Warrens decks in the world AND to Tarmogoyf.
Plus, Terror's pretty freaking good.
EDIT: Alternately, if you REALLY hate both Engineered Plague (and Enchantress), you can go RWG and run Ray of Revelation.
Did you consider Terminate? It doesn't kill Silver Knight, I guess. It kills everything else, though.
Snuff out is probably worth looking at, as well.
Could you just run your own Tarmogoyfs? Fanatic and Incinerator let you break stand-offs, and extra threats are better than dead removal spells against creature-light decks.
Terror's easier to cast than Terminate (Off Badlands/Port or Badlands/Waste) and hits the pro-red guys, which is one of the other main reasons I feel a removal spell should be run. However, honestly, I kind of momentarily forgot Terminate existed, so I'll have to go back and reexamine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Obfuscate Freely
Snuff Out isn't a bad option at all though. Even though 4 life is expensive, the tempo would make a pretty solid difference. I might try this.
As for running my own Tarmogoyfs, eh. You -could-, but against certain decks they'd be questionable. A removal spell fixes lots of other problems as well. Terror clears a creature that's set to block Lackey, as well as taking out guys equipped with a Jitte, as well as getting the Tarmogoyf off the board and letting you swing through with your Goblin horde.
I'll probably give Snuff Out some playtime though. It's not a bad idea at all.
Maybe Diabolic Edict instead of Terror? The logic is this: you want to splash removal for the creatures that can't be handled by Fanatic, Incinerator, or Pyrokinesis. So, once you've handled those, your Edict will hit the dangerous creatures like Silver Knight, 5/6 Tarmogoyfs, etc.
Thoughts?
Diabolic Edict doesn't work if they lead with Mongoose.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihil
After two short games and a shower and some thinking, I really like Snuff Out. Snuff Out is like, free creature removal spell 5-8, leaving all your mana to focus on Port or dropping Goblins.
Personally, I think Engineered Explosives would be awesome in this deck... here's my list...
// Lands 23
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Badlands
1 Plateau
1 Taiga
4 Mountain
// Creatures 33
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Piledriver
2 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Tin Street Hooligan
4 Goblin Warcheif
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Gempalm Incenerator
2 Siege-Gang Commander
// Spells 4
4 AEther Vial
// Sideboard 15
4 Engineered Explosives
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Pyrokinesis
I still think Cabal Therapies are very strong in the Goblin mirrors. EE can answer EtW tokens, and random crap like E-Plague, Tarmogoyf, and much more. Sadly, it's a huge expense, but in return, you get versatility.
EE can fight a lot, but it is very mana hungry. Ever EEed for 4? Ever killed 3 Goyfs at once? I sure as hell have. Thankfully, it's worth the expense. Only part I see EE is flawed in is against Goblins.
I've been playing Engineered Explosives in this deck for a while. It really helps alot vs. Threshold, Fish, or really any deck loaded with 1 & 2 drops. Obviously it also doubles as an answer to combo nowadays, since combo goes aggro against Goblins with Empty the Warrens. It's just icing on the cake that you can use it as answer to Engineered Plague as well. And decks that pack plague are often running Confidant, Jitte, and Cursed Scroll which also make good excellent Explosive "targets." Versatility really helps in this diverse of a format.
I think it's a reach to count on EE being able to hit for four, because this means you actually have to hit four colored lands consistently, which Goblins struggles to do. Hell, some games I'm happy to hit two. On occasion, hitting three to off a Plague is tough, but fortunately Therapy does double duty in Plague Hate.
@Anti: Therefore I'm not convinced your rogue Plateau buys you much of anything at all without a single white spell in the deck. Wouldn't this be better served as a Taiga or Badlands, making you more able to hit green and black consistently? What exactly do you want to blow up with an EE at 4? Moat? Mystic Enforcer?