You really should've searched the thread before posting this nonsense about Burning Tree Shaman, because it's already been discussed and it's awful. Just to recap, Fetchlands + Burning Tree Shaman = NOT a combo!Quote:
Originally Posted by Adan
Printable View
You really should've searched the thread before posting this nonsense about Burning Tree Shaman, because it's already been discussed and it's awful. Just to recap, Fetchlands + Burning Tree Shaman = NOT a combo!Quote:
Originally Posted by Adan
... and non-Green, if you have any significant number of Swamps in your meta (Perish, Dystopia).Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Gilmore
Edit: whoo, I should pay attention to datestamps on messages....
This is my decklist from The Mana Leak Open, which took me to T8 on day two (as well as T16 on day one).
4 Predict
4 Brainstorm
3 Portent
3 Serum Visions
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Daze
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
2 Fledgling Dragon
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Pithing Needle
4 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Island
1 Forest
Sideboard:
4 Pyroclasm
3 Counterbalance
3 Control Magic
2 Naturalize
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Sensei's Divining Top
I don't really remember enough to write a report, but I'd like to talk about the build.
The reason I'm currently running red instead of white is, as always, for Pyroclasm against Goblins. I felt losing Swords to Plowshares was acceptable because the matchups that significantly impacts are less important than the Goblin matchup, particularly if the disadvantage in the mirror match can be tempered with the sideboard.
I decided that I would need to sideboard at least seven cards for the mirror match so that I wasn't at too much of a disadvantage (I want to board out Lightning Bolt and Pithing Needle), and dropping white means no Nantuko Monastery or Jotun Grunt. After considering several red, blue, and green options, I decided on Counterbalance, which others around here had tested in the mirror to some success, and which doubles as an answer to combo (where I previously had Stifle).
I believe Counterbalance is strong on its own, but incorporating Top into the draw engine makes it much stronger. I was initially worried about Top being too slow against Goblins, but in my limited testing and tournament experience, this has not been significant. I think two is the correct number for the maindeck, because they are redundant and less efficient than other draw spells, but that a third should be boarded because you definitely want to see it against control decks or the mirror. I also think it needs to replace draw spells, but I don't know which ones. As you can see, I've cut down to 3 Portent and 3 Serum Visions right now, but running a 4/2 split or cutting a Predict might be better (Top and Predict serve similar roles, but Top makes drawing multiple Predicts very good).
Control Magic is there because I was worried about having no answer to Jotun Grunt on the board, as well as no answer to Enforcer except a two-of Dragon. Flametongue is not there because it stops the former but not the latter, and at the same price. I wanted to run Loaming Shaman as well, but could not find a way to fit it in along with the other cards I wanted.
I've always considered at least 2 Naturalize necessary, and I've been running 3 for some time. However, considering that artifacts are much more prevalent than enchantments, I have cut to 2 Naturalize and added Ancient Grudge. Grudge is mainly for the Goblin matchup, where I want to board at least one extra answer to Vial, particularly one that can answer Chalice as well. Naturalize and Grudge are both inefficient for this, but Grudge can generate card advantage to make up for it.
This list is still relatively new, and I'm not absolutely sure about these changes, but after playing it in the Running GAGG and both days at TML Open 2, I am very optimistic. Compared to my previous white build, I believe that the matchup against Goblins and any control deck is significantly improved, and the matchup against combo is either improved or unchanged. It still needs to be tested against the mirror, but even if it is at a disadvantage against white, the improved Goblin matchup may be worth it.
I was amazed with the results this deck gave me. I got around to test it, and I might play it at my next big tournament. Goblins has become a much bigger concern in my meta, Threshold is growing weak, and Combo is on the rise to answer Goblins. I know for a fact that
1. Goblins and Combo are rampant now.
2. The only card from the mirror that truely worries you will always be Mystic Enforcer. Since your Lightning Bolts are somewhat dead, you may as well hold 2 of them in your hand just to answer Enforcer around midgame (assuming this happens).
3. Top can easily help you outdraw the Gro mirror. It really shouldnt matter.
Congratz on making Top 8. I really look forward to this deck doing well. Also, have you considered Loaming Shaman instead of Control Magic, or has Control Mage been too powerful to cut due to effectiveness of this in the Midgame mirror? Estimated, how long do you think it could take to assemble the Counterbalance/Top combo with all the cantrips in this deck?
Could we get some boarding plans, too? And why such a small red package? I have, in place of your ridiculous amount of portents and tops (which I'd like to fit in) 4 magma jet 4 fire//ice. I'm at 61 cards, but I like it anyway.
Wastedlife's deck? Different mana base I assume as well, probablyQuote:
Originally Posted by lonelybaritone
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Flooded Strand
4 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Island
Awhile ago, Wastedlife cut a Fire // Ice from his list due to the fact that 61 cards isnt optimal. It's not so bad, but your Goblins MU is weakened without Needle. This deck plays so much more aggressively than the NoVA version that the only differences are that the NoVA version plays Control more often than the Wastedlife version, but in return, the NoVA version can keep more hands while it's forcing you to mulligan more. I had so many moments where I cant keep 1-land hands because Magam Jets arent Portents.
What are Jets and fire/ices for? What exactly is their purpose? DD to the dome? Not to mention the fact that by replacing 1cc cantrips for 2cc burn spells you are putting a huge strain on your mana base. I find that Pithing Needle in many ways plays the role that I would want out of extra burn, so I feel that anything more than Bolt is un-necessary. I just don't understand what extra burn spells give you. Removal? Not for most decks. I would play 1-2 Pyroclasms main (and I have) before I try Jet or Fire/Ice again. 2cc burn spells are inefficient in this meta game.Quote:
Originally Posted by lonelybaritone
Boarding Strategies (this varies at times)
Solidarity:
-3 Pithing Needle
-2 Fledgling Dragon
+1 Top
+3 Counterbalance
+1 Control Magic
Dragons come out because they are a instant loss if you attempt to play them, no matter what stage of the game. Counterbalance is the card that makes it a nightmare for them. As for Control Magic, after discussing it with Madzur he says that bringing in Control Magic gives you another card to pitch to Force as well as a card that counters Turnabout when on top of your deck.
Iggy Pop
-3 Needle
-2 Dragon
-1 Forest
(You can take out one bolt as well if you feel the need to add another Naturalize effect)
+3 Counterbalance
+1 Top
+2-3 (combination of Naturalize and Ancient Grudge)
You leave in the bolts because of Swarm and the fact that you can recur them each time an opponent casts an ill-gotten Gains.
The counterbalance + top engine is solid here.
The Naturalize effects answer Layline, Defense Grid, and can blow up key artifact mana sources (LED) at the right times.
Goblins:
-2 Dragon
-4 (some combination of card drawing effects. I Still do not know what is correct to take out in this match up)
+4 Pyroclasm
+2 Ancient Grudge/ Naturalize
Ancient grudge gives you another answer to vial as well as dealing with Chalice of the Void if they are boarding it. A very solid addition to the boarding strategy imo.
Mirror (UGW)
-4 Bolt
-3 Needle
+3 Control Magic
+3 Counterbalance
+1 Top
Control Magic is so good it can't be repeated enough. It compliments the top/balance plan perfectly, both countering and stealing Mystic Enforces. And more importantly it deals with Jotun Grunt very well.
TES
- 3 Needle
- 2 Dragon
- 3 Bolt
- 1 Forest
+ 3 Counterbalance
+ 4 Pyroclasm
+ 2 Ancient Grudge
This is what I would go with initially, although I need alot more testing.
Red Death...
I really Don't know what comes in this matchup... (Anwar or Madzur, a little help here?)
I def think some # of Control Magics, Some # of Pyroclasm, and possibly some # of Naturalizes.
I have no idea what to take out especially since Needles help with both Jitte and Shade.
Thats a start on matchups, plz feel free to add or critique my choices since my testing in certain matchups is not as thourough as I would like.
Cheers.
Jet was around to make predict a draw two every time. Also, I think 7-8 burn slots are right for this deck, as it gives it a little more reach than the current 4.
I know it seams like extra burn is needed but its not. But give both a try and see for yourself. By drawing better cards through more cantrips you get into situations where reach is crucial less often. I have never found Fire/Ice or Magma Jet an efficient use of my mana. I would rather run a Pyroclasm in the main which can, at times, circumvent the need for reach in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by noobslayer
You never played him, didn't you? And who the fuck said to play him along with Fledgling Dragon???Quote:
Originally Posted by URABAHN
Then give me an example in which Matchup Fledgling Dragon is better than BTS.
Tell me.
And maindeck Needles are, in my opinion, only a Metachoice. With BTS you often don't need Needle anymore (except against Wasteland/Pernicious Deed/Disk maybe).
And he IS superior to Fledgling Dragon. Test it!
Even though the post you were referring to was over 2 weeks old I'll bite.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adan
Dragon is better than BTS in:
Any match up where evasion is relevant, any match up where a quick clock is needed (3 turns with Dragon alone), any match up where being green is a liability (against Dystopia/Perish), any match up where your opponent has creatures greater than x/3, and any match up where life totals are highly relevant (taking 2 from Fetching is a problem).
Enough with the BTS shenanigans ok? As you said, test it. It’s been shown to be highly suboptimal in every match up that has been tested thus far. And I don’t consider its ability to stop horrible combo decks as enough of a bonus to outweigh its short comings.
Pretty much. I even traded for his french trops. I just don't know what to cut for the tops main. Maybe cut the fire//ice's altogether? Counterbalance is pretty sweet tech. But I'm not sure I like control magic. I mean, to be fair, I havent' tried it. I guess I'll have to get around to that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti~American4621
And, thanks for the boarding. Helped tons.
I wouldn't (and don't) bother playing this deck with only 4 lightning bolts and the dragons.Quote:
Originally Posted by noobslayer
I would, however, definatley condone +4 magma jet and +3 fire/ice. Four bolts just isn't enough in most cases. The burn can come in great handy, from finishing off control opponents who stabilize around 4-8 life, dealing with son of a bitch creatures like meddling mage, and so on.
Another option to board in against Threshold is Vedalken Shackles. If they do side in Needles against you, that's one Needle down, and 2 more for your Shackles. Problem is, they're under pressure. expect them to dismantle their general card quality just to make poor attempts to shut Shackles down. But if you dont like Control Magic, it's cool. Other alternatives are Loaming Shaman, Tormod's Crypt, and/or Flametongue Kavu. I would say Crypt is the best since you have an awful SoTF MU, and Crypt does much more than FtK.Quote:
Originally Posted by lonelybaritone
I'd cut the Fire // Ice for 2 Portents and 1 Top. 2 Tops can go in the SB for Counterbalance MUs.
BTW, Counterbalance is awesome. I won against Rifter because of Counterbalance.
@Happy Gilmore:
This is how I board for each MU...
Goblins:
-2 Fledgling Dragon
-1 Pithing Needle/Counterspell
-2 Sensei's Divining Top/1 Serum Vision, 1 SDT
-1 Predict
+4 Pyroclasm
+2 Ancient Grudge
Between boarding out Counterspell or Needle, I might say Needle. Here's why; Post-Board you already have 4 answers to Vial, two of which answer Crypt. I may keep the 3rd Needle in if I find out they boarded in a playset of Crypts against me, otherwise if they board in 3 of less, I'll board one out. Counterspell may be more important, since it stops them from restocking from broken Goblins, as well as keeping them in check.
Solidarity:
-4 Lightning Bolt
-2 Fledgling Drago
-1 Forest
+3 Counterbalance
+1 Sensei's Divining Top
+3 Control Magic
Mirror:
-4 Lightning Bolt
-3 Pithing Needle
+1 Sensei's Divining Top
+3 Counterbalance
+3 Control Magic
IGGy-Pop:
-3 Pithing Needle
-2 Fledgling Dragon
-1 Forest
+3 Counterbalance
+1 Sensei's Divining Top
+2 Control Magic/Ancient Grudge
I'm more likely to board in Ancient Grudge, but they generally crack their LEDs unless they've gotten a Chant or Swarm to resolve. I havent tested this MU much, but I do know for a fact that it's very hard for them to get Chant or Swarm to resolve.
TES:
-3 Pithing Needle
-1 Forest
-2 Fledgling Dragon
-1 Werebear
-1 Nimble Mongoose
+4 Pyroclasm
+1 Sensei's Divining Top
+3 Counterbalance
Clasms get boarded in to deal with troublesome creatures like Swarms, as well as the dreaded Confidant which get's boarded in against you. Empty the Warrens is also troublesome; expect Clasm' to actually be good against a Combo deck...
RGSA and Red Death:
What Happy Gilmore asked, but add in RGSA as well...
I asked MadZur the same question and I'll just repost what he told me in the PM:Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Gilmore
So what you guys were getting at was exactly what he said. He also mentioned that against Deadguy you might want to bring the rest of your Pyroclasms, being that most of their creature base is in the x/1 or x/2 category.Quote:
Originally Posted by MadZur
With his solid performances, I definitely think this version of the deck should get some more attention as so far it's showed itself able to put up good results.Quote:
Originally Posted by MadZur
Just for the sake of efficiency, would Threads of Disloyalty be better than Control Magic? Threads is 25% or so cheaper, so does the off-chance of nabbing an opposing Enforcer/Dragon make up for the cost, especially if a fair amount of the field is running LD and where 2UU is not always going to be given?
I think how he won most of his games was because of Counterbalance/Top, otherwise it would've been the same MUs being unchanged, and having to dedicate important SB slots just to fight something stupid and random. Counterbalance/Top is basically Armageddon, but much better. He tied against RGbSA. That is very suprising, considering the fact that that Midgame mirrors are very tough Match-Ups. I can also see Counterbalance/Top being very dangerous against another bad MU like Aluren, and perhaps Rifter (if played as a metagame deck in certain areas) as well.
White can easily do this as well, but the only differences is that White can win the Gro mirror Game 1 usually, but Post-Board agaisnt Goblins becomes weaker. I think Red is a better option since Pyroclasm can fight so much in the format.
I don't like the fact of it only hitting 2 or less creatures. For 1 mana more, you can steal any creature with Control Magic, which is great for stealing their Enforcers or Dragons or Grunts or what have you in any other match you might feel it necessary. They're excellent for the mirror and fish match where LD isn't a problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bardo
Nothing personal when I criticize your SB plan again:Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti~American4621
But I don't think Solidarity will be overly impressed by Control Magic.
A situation came up in the last tournament at The Frog where Control Magic was able to take a Darksteel Colosus, something neither Shackles or Threads can do. Threads of Disloyalty can't take Negator/Hypnotic Spectre/Akroma, and so on. I still think Control magic is still better than Shacles in the mirror since you need 4 blue sources to take a Bear or Grunt in the first place. It is not affected by Needle as mentioned, and it pitches to FoW.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bardo
At Anti~American4621:
Your board for goblins is probably about right, but the things you seem to take out against Solidarity and TES seem horrible. You go down to 6 threats and expect to put pressure on them? And you take out Bolt before Pithing Needle against Solidarity????? The reason for 1x Control Magic is as a filler, designed to counter Turnabout on the off chance and to pitch to FoW. I would never suggest boarding in all three.
And btw, if your boarding strategy is the same for a particular match up just say so. There is no need to post it multiple times and clog up the thread.