Printable View
I have a question about this boarding plan - why do you board in Firestorm but not Chain of Vapor against Stax? Firestorming a Magus takes 6 cards and you have no out against an early Ghostly Prison... is this a typo? Or what is the reasoning?Quote:
Originally Posted by Parcher
I'd say it has something to do with being a instantspeed discardoutlet. It can dome and take out morph'd Exalted Angels. However, this is just my guess, I'd also say that you should board CoV instead of FStorm simply because Ghostly Prison is a BITCH.Quote:
Originally Posted by Serbitar
First, I want to clarify that I include Chalice Aggro in the same basic sideboard plan as Stax. So, in fact, a Firestorm can kill a Magus for two cards. And use that has been highly relevant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Serbitar
G2: -3 Unmask, -1 Hypno, -2 DA, -1 LED
+1 City, +3 Grudge, +3 Firestorm
Unmask comes out along with one Hypno since on the play, Stax will usually keep a hand that will drop their best threat on turn one. Really lowers the value of discard. And you'll never cast DA in a relevant time. The extra City should be obvious, along with the Grudges.
Stax has three strongest opening plays. First being Chalice for one, second being 3Sphere, and third being Prison/Magus. Firestorm is there in case they take their best option to shut you down, which is either Chalice at one to shut down all your non-LED discard outlets, or Magus of the Moon to shut off casting any spells. Firestorm takes care of both of these, and there's no real answer to a first turn 3Sphere.
Prison is only a problem if they drop it turn one, since it will always be your first discard target being their only relevant spell. You need to keep a hand with either LED, or two, or access to two lands. You just bring back a Troll, (or two if you have an LED+land) since Stax rarely runs GY hate, and swing for the win.
G3: -2 DA, -2 LED, -1 Ichorid
+1 Unmask, +1 City, +3 Grudge
This is, as I explained in the post, a post-board on the play plan, more than a game three plan. The extra Unmask is there to combine with Therapy to get Prison on turn one. You can lose the Ichorid since you will have a better chance to discard Magus of the Tabernacle before they can play it, and thus keep your tokens.
Ok, thanks, that pretty much solved my question. I see the reasoning against Chalice Aggro.
But if you know, that the opponent is playing white Armageddon Stax, you should probably board Chain of Vapor instead of Firestorm and take out something else instead of the LED (since that is crucial against a resolved Prison) - maybe the 2nd Hypnotist?
Not really. They can easily protact Prison with a Chalice or 3Sphere before you can either get a Chain, or they play Prison. Or they will possibly Waste your land first. The most important part being able to discard multiples through Chalice since DDD is always a last resort.
I didn't pull the second Hypno for LED, though you're right that it is important. Since Magus shuts off your Bridges effectively, I want every Black creature possible to use for Ichorids. Also, even though he likely won't hit play in time to use against your opponent, he can create tokens, and more importantly, allow you an additional discard outlet for yourself later in the game. Probably a decent choice though for game two.
hey guys...
Did someone already tested out Iona, Shield of Emeria, cuz some people have already said, she might be good...
Is she better than Chosen, or does she deserve a SB-Slot, or is she just crap?
YawG
Where would she be significantly better than just shredding their hand with Hypno? I find it unlikely that there are many places that it would happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yawgmoth'sWill
In theory with Iona down the opponent can't topdeck the win out of nowhere like he could do with Hypnothist.Quote:
Originally Posted by Otter
But in theory there's no difference between practice and theory but in practice there is. :laugh:
They can't topdeck the win out of nowhere because we are playing Legacy where they can't topdeck you with Time Vault/Tinker/Y.Will.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elfrago
And you can still win with just a single Bridge in the GY because it seals the game.
I still advocate FKZ as the primary DR target in Vintage because speed matters and the Bridges are usually not in danger, but in Legacy, Hypnotist is better because no one can crap out his hand in the first few turns.
So what is the right split for DR targets? Is it 2 hypno so you can maximize getting them early, or is there another way where we could fit one more target in, being either FKZ or witness, if so, what would one take out? Or, is the MD running so tight that there is no way to fit another DR target in...
I don't like Sadistic Hypnotist.
I tried to make him work. But in all the tournaments I played Ichorid or loaned out the deck, and in all my goldfishing, there was never a situation where I would have rather had a Hypnotist in play over an Eternal Witness or Flame-Kin Zealot.
If you have Hypnotist in yard and enough creatures to discard their hand, your opponent will counter your Dread Return if they can. And if they don't have countermagic, why not Dread Return a Witness or Zealot and just win? Unlikely as it may be, giving them the chance to topdeck a Crypt, Relic, or Engineered Explosives, etc. seems like an unnecessary risk.
I'll admit that I can conceive of situations where Hypnotist is better than Zealot/Witness, but in practice it hasn't happened for me.
@Kuma
vs. Countermagic you should use your therapys to be sure that your DR wil resolve...
Obviously.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraph2k
My point is that if they have countermagic you can't get rid of, you're not going to be able to Dread Return anything. So it doesn't matter what Dread Return targets you have.
If they don't have countermagic, wouldn't it be better to just kill them instead of stripping their hand? If you kill them outright, they can't topdeck Crypt, Relic, Explosives, or whatever and keep fighting.
There are situations where you don't have/can't make enough guys to kill them, but you can make enough to discard their hand. In those situations Sadistic Hypnotist is better.
But these situations just haven't come up for me in numerous tournaments/testing/goldfishing.
I don't know if you get really lucky dredges... For me the situation has come up countless times, that you dredge two Moebas and two Bridges (and at least one Therapy), which is not enough for FKZ (or Witness, if you have no mana floating), but allows for Hypnotist to win the game. This is especially true in those games, where you don't get a totally busted Breakthrough.
This is also what happens most often for me. Hypnotist allows you to "win" with less Bridges in your yard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Serbitar
why not just have both sadistic hypnotist and FKZ MD? just a thought? :)
Hasn't anybody brought Sphinx of Lost Truths up yet? Cephalid Sage was a staple for years and this is just a straight upgrade.
I am including it in my build and well its just the same critter but is 3/5 instead of 2/3 and has flying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Manhattan
And you discard 3 instead of 2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nekrataal
That discard 3 instead of 2 has been great for me. Also, I run 1 FKZ and 1 sphinx, instead of the hypnotists. I like the ability to get the kill right then and there, and was never in a situation that I wished that I had a hypnotist to return.
-Chris-
Or you could just name with the Therapy one of the one or two cards that can beat you in the current situation and keep your board intact.Quote:
Originally Posted by Serbitar
That's the other half of my point. By the time you Dread Return a Hypnotist, most of the cards in your opponent's hand are probably irrelevant. And most of the cards that are relevant cost zero or one mana, so he's probably not holding them back for you to discard. Unless you're Dread Returning and using Sadistic Hypnotist before your opponent takes a turn, they're probably going to play most of their relevant cards on their first turn.
Countermagic is relevant when you're trying to resolve a Dread Return, but since you need to resolve one to get a Hypnotist, he's not really better in the face of countermagic.
Crypts, Relics, and Explosives get played on the first turn or as soon as they're drawn. Hypnotist isn't really useful against these cards unless he's in play before your opponent has a chance to resolve them.
White removal is relevant, but also instant speed and costs one mana. And if they're holding one with an open white mana, you're only going to be able to discard two cards with Hypnotist at most.
Your opponent's creatures are usually irrelevant since you make more creatures faster. Creatures like Mogg Fanatic that can remove Bridges on a whim usually cost one mana.
I guess he's good against stuff like Pernicious Deed, Firespout, and Wrath of God. But these cards are easy to play around --- just keep a few non-token creatures around to rebuild your army.
I don't see how Sadistic Hypnotist is really useful unless he's coming down turn one or two in a situation where you can't just win. There are so few cards that are actually relevant against us. I've been happy with just Cabal Therapy and Unmask to remove problem cards while the rest of their hand sits there uselessly against a horde of zombies.
That's how I feel about Hypnotist. Flame-Kin Zealot and Eternal Witness/Sphinx of Lost Truths allow you to win without quotation marks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaynel
Parcher, thanks for really nice sideboard plans. I'm wondering if you have any sideboard plans in the mirror?
I'm new to the deck so this may seem a stupid question:
let's say I crack led. Deep analysis goes in the yard and only one dredger. The same could be with land, led play breakthrough. In response crack led and just 1 dredger goes to the yard.
I dredge and 1 see other dredgers. Since I see other dredgers can I continue to dredge, or must I draw the remaining cards?
Hope that you understood what I meant..
yes... each draw is an individual action so if you dregde more dredgers of of the preceeding draw you can substitute further draws by dredgingQuote:
Originally Posted by pippo84
Ok thanks! I tried the deck a little bit and did as you said and the deck seemed to work. Then my friends told me the opposite and it became a little klunky..Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe_C
This is the list I played, the deck was lent my by another person that wasen't there during playtesting. It's quite different from what I read in the previous posts..
4 Cephalid Coloseum
3 Mines
3 Petals
4 Led
4 Breakthrough
2 Careful Study
4 Deep Analysis
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
3 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave Troll
3 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame Kin Zealot
1 River Kelpie
The cards I didn't like were Careful Study. The rest was ok, and Kelpie was really strong. I wanted often to have a second mana source to cast DA even without led..
What do you think?
You could play with Eternal Witness to replay a LED or Petal.Quote:
Originally Posted by pippo84
When you get to DR, yes you are winning in that situation, but you don't always get to FKZ ftw. Sometimes you get only like 2-3 zombies. In those turn 1-2 situations hypnotist is much better, since you get to rape their hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuma
If you are having 2 dr targets, and they are fkz and a guy that draws cards, you cannot rely on getting to combo them off on turns 1-2 anyway. You need more dread returns and more targets to be consistent with your combo. I prefer to have my dr targets do what I expect them to do (fkz and sphinx can come in the wrong order f.e.), and I play ichorid much more in a "disruptive aggro" kind of way anyways.
I think it's close enough to be considered preference/metagame/playstyle question, but I would encourage you to try the hypnotists out. It's worth the try really. Having to pass the turn also means pretty much shit since they can hardly do anything to make you lose if they have 0 cards and like, two lands.
Anyway, I've liked them.
Well, Parcher already pointed out how an early hypnotist can cripple the opponent because they discard lands too... Plus, with all of the must counter that Ichorid has, you should theoretically run the other deck out of countermagic early and then your DR will resolve, thats why we have unmask and therapy. Against nonblue, hypno still seems effective because if you are in the race, and they have no hand, then you should win the race.....
Now, i know this is all variable to draws and proper mulligans, but still should be the over all gameplan, unless you've had "great success"(borat voice) with the fkz.
4 GOLGARI GRAVE-TROLL
4 STINKWEED IMP
3 GOLGARI THUG
4 TIRELESS TRIBE
4 NARCOEMEBA
4 BLOODGHAST
1 SADISTIC HYPNOTIS
1 CEPHALID SAGE
1 FLAME-KIN ZEALOT
4 BREAKTHROUGH
4 CARFUL STUDY
4 CABAL THERAPY
4 BRIDGE FROM BELOW
3 DREAD RETURN
4 UNDISCOVERED PARADISE
4 GEMSTONE MINE
4 CEPHALID COLOSSEUM
2 DAKMOR SALVAGE
1 CITY OF BRASS
SB
4 PITHING NEEDLE
4 CHAIN OF VAPOR
3 FORCE OF WILL
2 ANCIENT GRUDGE
1 ANCESTOR'S CHOSEN
1 SADISTIC HYPNOTIST
This list just Top 8'd at the Philly 5K.
Just wondering what you guys think of this decks power, does Bloodghast make Ichorid invalid now?
Does this list push non-LED Ichorid into the superior version?
Is that Force of Will in the sideboard? Is there enough blue cards to run it?Quote:
Originally Posted by lorddotm
Apparently it's "yes" to both questions ><
You might want to read the report. For one thing, I love hearing about hordes of flaming zombies madly rushing towards an unsuspecting opponent, and for another, his game threes seemed to run along the lines of "I force of Willed his [important, Ichorid crushing card] and my opponent died of a cardiac arrest brought on by shock."Quote:
Originally Posted by Stall_19
It really should be placed in the LEDless thread though--he doesn't like the LEDs. Cutting leds works well with the bloodghasts too, as cutting the LEDs allows/requires him to run more lands, which he can then use to animate the vampires.
IDK about the Ghast. Id still with Ichorid, 3 power and an instant token-generator at end of turn. The list above I think is a little slow compared to LED Ichorid. Props though for taking it to the T8.Quote:
Originally Posted by lorddotm
No LED-based Dredge in the T8 apparently.
Greetings, true ichorid faithful and prospective ichorid lovers alike. I've lurked long enough and feel it's time to actually post. For those of you that like Cephalid Sage, I suggest trying out Sphinx of Lost Truths instead. I think it's strictly better in every way. (LEDless Ichorid could make an argument against it I suppose, if they want to hang onto that one extra card).
A 3/5 with Flying for 3uu that just dropped in Zendikar.
When Sphinx of Lost Truths enters the battlefield, draw three cards. Then if it wasn't kicked (for a blue and a colorless), discard three cards.
Most lists havent run a "sage" effect in favor of Eternal Witness. Im testing Sphinx in my non-led build, he seems like he could be very well worth it, in LED builds however Im not sure the extra draw is needed since Eternal witness can take back much more to aid the deck out of tight spotsQuote:
Originally Posted by Spaced Ghost
Just tested the Bloodghast build (No LED and no Ichorid) and what I can say is that its more of a conservative approach to Dredge. It lacks the explosiveness compared to LED Dredge though. Its more of a slowly but surely one. Will test further and see what the best build is.
No one tried River Kelpie? I think he's really strong!
I've played with River Keplie for a while. Generally, it's somewhere between Cephalid Sage and a cantrip. On rare occasion he gets you there, or even overmills (draws too many cards).Quote:
Originally Posted by pippo84
It's a nice card, but it's too combo oriented and lackluster when you're on the ropes.
Why is the discussion going around in circles? People should read the thread then ask questions.