[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

Stoneblade and NO Bant both showed me Spell Snares, and I'd rather blank them than take a chance that it might possibly hit. Vs Nic Fit, I feel that Hymn isn't that great to keep in. Most Nic Fit decks have a tendency of emptying their hand rather quickly due to spewing forth lands. Also, it can be very dangerous if you hit a big threat and next turn they go Nightmare -> bring it back. I've done that, and I have no desire to be on the opposite side.

If you're in a combo heavy meta, though, ignore my arguments about taking out Hymn.

If you don't have Hymn vs. red burn and UR burn, you're almost guaranteed to lose. I wouldn't want to face Merfolk without Hymn either. Counters+early game pressure is difficult to beat, but I suppose in your version, you've got Academy Rectors to grab Moat, but they can still fly over it. I imagine the 3-color manabase makes it hard to cast Hymn, but in straight GB, I think Qweerios would agree that Hymn is a card that never (or almost never) gets boarded out. I would only board it out vs. Lands. The dodging Spell Snare argument is problematic because that means you can't even GSZ for 1 for Veteran Explorer. Sometimes, you can even just play around Spell Snare by waiting for them to tap out. For example, Stone Blade often taps out on turn 2 for Stoneforge. Lately, I've been seeing a lot more people playing Spell Pierce over Snare. Even so, there's only a certain number of decks that run Snare, and about a 40% chance it'll be in their opening hand or so. At worst, you can board out Hymn in G2 and G3 and they'll keep in their Snares. This deck doesn't have much to do on the early turns anyway. Is giving them free tempo (i.e., doing nothing on turn 2) really worth dodging Spell Snare for?

How is Hymn getting Spell Snared a problem? It's a 1 for 1 exchange that only ends in a 2 for 1 trade in your favor in the absence of said counterspell. I don't understand this whole ''dodge Spell Snare'' thing going on here. As far as I know, Spell Snare doesn't win games. Believe it or not, there are many decks out there that play plenty of 2 CMC spells and still manage to beat decks packing a whole playset of Spell Snares.

As far as the mirror goes, I have playtested against CalebD's version as well as a couple of different GBw versions several times. The whole matchup is played around Hymn and Therapy. You take turns stripping eachothers' hands and the first one to play a Top usually wins, otherwise nothing stays on the board for either side.

I agree with Greenpoe that Hymn is a card I would never side out (except against Dredge). Hymn is good against almost every single deck out there because it is never a play that leaves you at a disadvantage. It is one of these cards that almost always warrant a Force of Will despite the irony of its effect. Even against the fastest decks in the format Hymn is a good play. When a deck empties its hand fast, the window of opportunity for an Hymn is inversely proportional to its effect on the game. Landing an Hymn against a Burn deck is even more devastating than, say, ANT, and we all know how good Hymn is against ANT.

Hi all,

This is the list I'm playing at the moment. Pretty standard taken fra Caleb's list, with minor changes.

The list:
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Genesis
2 Grave Titan

2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Dismember
2 Go for the Throat
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Liliana of the Veil

3 Bayou
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Forest
5 Swamp
2 Phyrexian Tower

SB: 3 Extirpate
SB: 4 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 1 Damnation
SB: 2 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 Thrun, the Last Troll
SB: 1 Massacre Wurm
SB: 1 Kitchen Finks

I used to play the GBW list, as I liked the Rector tutoring and Sun Titan. Those two can make some pretty sick moves, but found it to be rather slow and in rare occaissions being colorscrewed, since the list required double white, black and green (maybe it's the list :rolleyes:).

Anyway, I'm loving the GB version. The creatures to tutor for is perfect (loving the Eternal Witnesses, don't leave home without them). Used to play Garruk, Primal hunter or Garruk, Relentless, but OMG GSZ is sick, when you got the lands you need. It's the icing on the cake.

Basicly, there's anything you need to answer pretty much everything, though Storm-Combo is bad (hence the SB).

Can't figure out if Mindbreak Trap is good or bad? Anyone?

Thrun is the Boss. Stick him and you win. Seriously, that's my experience. A guy at my local store once said, that if he lost to Thrun, he would quit Magic. Don't know if he has :laugh: haven't played him though, but he's a Storm-Combo player, so maybe that's not happening.

I'm testing Massacre Wurm as a SB card. It's neat in an aggro match-up and have stuck it once against Maverick. It was sick that time, but don't know if it's too narrow and waste of a SB space?

I love playing the deck because of the synergies and generelly how the plays (cards) fit together.

Two weeks ago I played a 5 round tournament at the local store and met Sneak Attack in round 1 and lost 0-2. But won the 4 last rounds against Mono White Weenie Equipment, 2xBUG Control and UW Control and split the 1st place. The last 3 rounds were pretty close and won 2 of them 1-0-1. Thrun singlehandedly won me two of the games and GSZ turned up when I needed it most. Luck? I don't know, but I'm playing the same list tomorrow, so we'll see :cool:

The new Sorin looks like a great compliment for us.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attac...9&d=1326258057

2WB

+1 1/1 lifelink vampire
-2 emblem, our creatures +1/+0
-6 destroy up to 3 other creatures or PW's, return under our control
starting loyalty = 3

As per your reply in the DKA thread, I don't think that he's going to replace Relentless, since Relentless actively allows us to sacrifice our stuff for greater threat/value. However, I'm going to look at trying to squeeze him in as a 1-of, to provide an additional means of attack. It's worth noting that his ult will allow us to sac dragons and return them to the battlefield for free, which may not be particularly relevant, but I'm sure there'll be a time when it'll matter. He's very reminiscent of Elspeth KE, although I still like her as a 1-of as well in my list, due to her ability to make things fly over Moat.

TL;DR Potentially relevant to us, but I don't think he's as important as Relentless.

I don't run Rector or Master of the Wild Hunt which makes Relentless feel pretty average in my list. I think that makes the transition to Sorin a lot easier. Similarly, I don't run moat so Elspeth's jump loses some utility.

Here are the results of a small local tournament with the following list:


Creatures (14)
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Eternal Witness
3 Abyssal Persecutor
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Deranged Hermit

Instant/Sorcery (18)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Terminate

Artifact/Enchantment
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed

Lands (22)
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
3 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Pyroblast
2 Consuming Vapors
1 Damnation
1 Gaddock Teeg


I traded my Thrun away not so long ago and didn't have one availlable.

Round 1: U/R Delver 2-0

Game 1: Some good early Therapy/Explorer action stripping 2 Spell Snares into Terminate + 2 Witness beatdown (terminated 2 Delvers and a Grim).

In: 3 REB, 3 Pyro, 2 Vapors.
Out: 1 Zealot, 1 Hermit, 3 Deed, 3 Pulse

Game 2: Blasts coupled with Percy take the game quite convincingly.

Round 2: Pox 0-2

Game 1: I lose the die roll, I lay a T1 Top. My opponent opens up with 2 Dark Rituals, 2 Sinkholes, and 2 Smallpox in the next 4 turns. Top allows me a land drop every turn but my opponent keeps me contained. When I finally get two mana to GSZ for an Explorer on turn 6 (Toping for lands every turn), I get Poxed, leaving me with 2 lands and less than 10 life. Two Mishra's Factory beat me to death while I am holding 2 Pulse.

No sideboard changes since the matchup is heavily in my favor.

Game 2: I start with a T1 Top again. My opponent proceeds to stripping my hand with Inquisition of Kozilek and Hymn to Tourach while I land a Therapy/Explorer nailing 2 Smallpox. A Pox follows nuking us both to 3 lands and 10 hp. I Deed away a Mishra and play a Finks. My opponent lands a Nether Spirit followed by two Cursed Scrolls that eventually take me to zero life as I hold a Percy in hand with three lands in play.

Round 3: Reanimator 1-2

Game 1: I lose the die roll and open up with a Therapy on Exhume to which my opponent responds with an Entomb for Elesh Norn. Elesh Norn allows me to fetch 4 basics with 2 Explorers and cast 2 Pulse on Elesh Norn (the first one gets countered). Norn gets reanimated once more when I am holding a Finks and a Zealot. My opponent then reanimated a Gin Gitaxias and stomped me.

In: 1 Crypt, 2 Spellbomb, 2 Extractions, 3 REB, 3 Blasts, 2 Vapors.
Out: 4 Hymn, 3 Deed, 3 Pulse, 1 Hermit, 1 Finks, 1 Zealot

Game 2: I open up with Therapy on Reanimate. My opponent Entombs an Iona on his T1 but I am holding a Pyroblast, a Crypt, and an Extraction. I extract his Iona on his T2 Exhume and Blast his FoW. I follow up with a Nihil Spellbomb, draw into another Extraction and GSZ for an Ooze... my opponent scoops.

Game 3: My opponent Entombs an Iona. I Therapy for a Reanimate but my opponent is holding an Exhume with 2 Fow, a Careful Study, and no lands. I lay an Explorer and Flashback Therapy, eating the 2 FoW, then I GSZ for Ooze. My opponent Exhumes his Iona, naming Black and dumps 2 Gitaxias with a Careful Study. I pump ooze to 5/5 eating away the Gins and my Explorer, puting me at 23 hp and proceed to race iona with a 5/5 Ooze and a fetched Dryad Arbor. I am holding Vapors, Percy, and Therapy when my opponent uses Echoing Truth on Ooze as I was about to finish him. Iona kills me the turn after as I draw a Pyroblast... FML

Round 4: U/R Delver again 1-2

Game 1: I lose the die roll, my opponent opens up Delver, I open with an Explorer that meets a Daze. Delver flips on a Brainstorm and my opponent lays a Goblin Guide beating me for 5 on T2. I GSZ an explorer on T2 while my opponent flies over. I attempt to Pulse the Delver but meet a FoW. The next turn I get hit by Delver again followed by a Chain Lightning and 2 Bolts, there goes 20 of my life points.

In: 3 REB, 3 Pyro, 2 Vapors
Out: 3 Deed, 3 Terminate (I know he sides out FoW for Spell Snare), 1 Hermit, 1 Zealot

Game 2: I open up with a Top, my opponent opens up Delver again. I Top on T2 while my opponent Ponders, his Delver didn't flip. I Hymn 2 lands away. Delver flips and Goblin Guide follows, I start taking damage. I GSZ an Explorer to stop Guide from swinging. I cast a Percy that my opponent taps with Ice and swings with Delver again. My life total is getting low but we are at a standstill with my Percy stopping Delver and my Explorers stopping Guide. I land a second Percy and take a PoP and a Bolt leaving me at 1 life, my opponent has 20 life. I Pulse Delver and lay another Explorer then swing for 12. My opponent draws a land, I play Witness, getting back Pulse then I pass the turn. My opponent draws another land and I swing for 12 again followed by a Pulse on both Percy.

Game 3: I get an Explorer on the field but don't manage to sac him. My opponent beats me down with 2 Delvers and a Clique while Dazing my removal. I finally manage to destroy a Delver with a REB but I take another 6 damage swing on T4 followed by a Bolt and a Fireblast.

Overall, a pretty dissapointing performance. I was prepared for all of these matchups but couldn't pull through. I could argue that my opponents had some pretty good hands but I don't think that would amount to anything constructive. What I take away from this event:

-Finks isn't good enough against U/R Delver. Any other GSZ target is as good if not better (Ooze and Witness for instance). Scryb Ranger would do a better job... I am seriously considering Sporecap Spider at this point. :(

-REB and Pyro are extremely effective and I wish I saw more than 1 per game.

-A second Phyrexian Tower may be a good call.

Thanks for taking the time to type that out. Your matches highlight why I love white for STP. 1 mana to dodge snare and accommodate daze, can hit manlands, and makes Iona a roll of the dice. However, the blasts looked like they were amazingly strong. There looks to be a deficit of PW's. Maybe you can go -1 pulse, -1 hymn, for 2 bolts/liliana's.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by conboy31

Thanks for taking the time to type that out. Your matches highlight why I love white for STP. 1 mana to dodge snare and accommodate daze, can hit manlands, and makes Iona a roll of the dice. However, the blasts looked like they were amazingly strong. There looks to be a deficit of PW's. Maybe you can go -1 pulse, -1 hymn, for 2 bolts/liliana's.

---

In a similar vein, re: removal, in a straight GB version (my personal preference) I think Beast Within has a place in the 75 for those same reasons. It's instant speed Pulse #4-5 and dodges Spell Snare and crap like Iona. It's also an added answer for JTMS, which this deck can stuggle against. And for dodging Daze, I've found Dismember to be adequate.

Another SB option I've been testing is Tsunami over Choke. It's had a lot more synergy with Explorers flooding the board with basics that Choke for me. You don't have to force them to tap out to make it effective, especially if you've stripped their hand with Therapy/Hymn and it's a top deck war.

When they topdeck a Jace with untapped lands and a Choke in play, they probably win anyway. If you Tsunami them and they draw a Jace, it's a dead card, especially if you baited them into potentially getting 2 basic islands with your Explorer.

That and UW decks are packing more Disenchant and Krosan Grip outs for decks like Maverick that run similar SB cards too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tao

Nic Fit Top8ed the German 242 man "Win a Lotus" Legacy tournament. Lists are not out yet, hope they come soon.

---

Lists up yet? :smile:

You can find the Nic Fit list here:

http://www.mercadia.de/home/page.php.../deck&id=89330

Qweerios, how has Viridian Zealot been? He seems too slow for my tastes. I would rather just run more Pulses/Deeds if you have serious issues with artifacts. If it's for Batterskull, I think Glissa is a more effective solution. Also, have you tried running 1 Grave Titan and 1 Fierce Empath? I cut the third Witness for 1 Fierce Empath, and he's been great, since both cards occupy a card-advantage slot, its just that one grabs from the library instead of graveyard. GSZ->Fierce Empath->Grave Titan is an entirely viable play. I like Grave Titan because whenever he hits the board, they concede within a turn.

I'm surprised you aren't running any extra Kitchen Finks in the SB. They're great vs. burn/Delver burn, Goblins, and Pox (surviving two sacrifice effects is good vs. Liliana especially). Surviving a Deed is a nice bonus, too.

I'm trying out a single Dosan the Falling Leaf and 2 extra Thruns instead of Choke or Tsunami in the SB.

PollePotDK, what's the Genesis for? Why not just play Eternal Witness for recursion, especially if you're going to be GSZ'ing for it? Also, why only 3 Hymn? With just two colors, it's easy to cast in GB and it's awesome in multiples. Why do you run Wall of Blossoms as a 1-of? The only time I can imagine GSZ'ing for it would be vs. Zoo, but in that case it's more of a SB card.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Philipp2293

You can find the Nic Fit list here:

http://www.mercadia.de/home/page.php.../deck&id=89330

---

I used his GP Amsterdam list as a starting point once I gave up on the BG version. The changes I made could be meta dependent, but are: -1 SDT, -1 Elspeth, -1 Garruk, -1 horizon canopy, -1 master of the wild hunt. +2 maelstrom pulse, +1 glissa, +1 kitchen finks, +1 scav. ooze.
I have currently omitted non-liliana walkers from the deck, I feel like they are right on the fringe as the 59/60/61st cards. Also, it seems like Wild Hunt and Relentless go hand in hand for non-rector builds. I really enjoy the extra finks and ooze maindeck. Having two of each goes a long way against the delver decks and double ooze is relevant against any gy deck. In the Gb.w versions 2 or 3 tops and 21 or 22 lands is correct. Probably the 22nd land being utility (bojuka bog/canopy/urbog/wildwood/etc) if the 4 mana walkers are added.
Small edit-> I really want to be playing with 4 mana bombs like Elspeth/Relentless/etc, but I found that turn 3 crucial. It is more about catching up and equalizing. Then, allowing for witness, sun titan, rec nightmare, thrun, ooze + Xgreen to take over the game. Pulse and Finks are often the equalizing three drops.

@Greenpoe

Viridian Zealot is fine. He is pretty close to a Pridemage.

That German Nic Fit list looks like it was designed to beat a lot of Maverick...

@Greenpoe: I'm trying out Genesis for recursion, but after playing last night (misable 1-3, won over Goblins, lost to RUG Tempo, Bant Aggro, High Tide) I'm taking it out, since I sideboarded it out all the time and never wanted to GSZ for it. Taking in a Bird instead to mana/colorfixing. The Wall is nice, I think, in the start with card draw, but maybe it should go out but don't know what to take in. Don't want to lower the creature count anymore than it is. Maybe Glissa. She's nice even if there's no aritfacts in the deck.

I'm running 3 Hymn because of space issues. Btw I have experienced some problemes with the mana/colorfixing in the early stages of the game. If I meet wasteland decks, I'm allways going for basic lands (if I don't have Veteran in hand) and then it's a problem, because of double black and double green. Got screwed alot last night because of that, where I was in a dominating position had I been able to get (got the balls to go for :wink:) the right manabase.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PollePotDK

Maybe Glissa. She's nice even if there's no aritfacts in the deck.

---

You may or may not run two SDT's :wink:

Useful artifacts - it's not like it's Engineered Explosive :smile:

I pointed that out as I too run 2 SDT's but Glissa has never brought one back to play. I'm sure at some point in time a SDT will get dazed and Glissa will run to save it for me. If I were to run a single artifact to supplement her it would probably be 1 executioners capsule for the combo or 1 Batterskull. Edit-> Cursed Scroll and the aforementioned EE are also on the radar.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PollePotDK

I'm running 3 Hymn because of space issues. Btw I have experienced some problemes with the mana/colorfixing in the early stages of the game. If I

meet wasteland decks, I'm allways going for basic lands (if I don't have Veteran in hand) and then it's a problem, because of double black and

double green. Got screwed alot last night because of that, where I was in a dominating position had I been able to get (got the balls to go for

:wink:) the right manabase.

---

I'm surprised the manabase has bothered you enough to not have the 4th Hymn. It's been fine for me, and we're running roughly the same manabase, just with a Dryad Arbor, which is good for when you need extra mana but don't want Explorer/don't have a sac outlet. Sometimes you can EOT fetch Dryad Abor off a fetch and sac it to Phyrexian Tower to that extra 1 mana. For reference, here's my current list. It might look a bit odd because there's so many 1-ofs, but they're all there for a reason and I'm more than happy to draw any of them. I don't run any creatures that seem too narrow in the MD, either. Anything I would side out more than half the time would be too narrow, but I generally keep most of the toolbox guys in. I haven't found space for Tops because, well, Tops are good in the late game, but I'm primarily worried about the early game. To avoid running of out gas, I made sure wanted to go with green creatures for NO that would give me card advantage.


// Lands
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
2 [B] Bayou
2 [US] Phyrexian Tower
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ISD] Forest
5 [MI] Swamp
1 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
4 [WL] Veteran Explorer
1 [CS] Ohran Viper
2 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
4 [WWK] Abyssal Persecutor
1 [MBS] Thrun, the Last Troll
1 [CMD] Hornet Queen
1 [M11] Gaea's Revenge
1 [M12] Grave Titan
1 [ARC] Fierce Empath

// Spells
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [VI] Natural Order
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach
2 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [CS] Ohran Viper
SB: 3 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 [CMD] Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 [CHK] Dosan the Falling Leaf
SB: 4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 1 [MPR] Damnation

On CFB again: Caleb with his SCG list (almost the same) vs. Counterthopter

http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...ounterbalance/


I have been testing Trinket Mages and they have been very good. Pithing Needle (Mother of Runes, Jace TMS, Elspeth), Sensei Top, Nihil Spellbomb and Engineered Explosives are all very good maindeck cards. This also allows to improve Primeval Titan, now he can be fetching Volrath's Stronghold and Academy Ruins.

I guess in such a build you really want to run Glissa too, no?

No Glissa for me. It is bad when the opponent can use spot removal and get a one for one out of the deal. Often the opponent will have bad Swords or Bolts or Dismembers rotting in his hand anyway. Swords to Plowshares on Veteran Explorer should stay the only way this can happen and you can play around that by sacrificing it to Cabal Therapy immediately after playing it.

After a bit early testing here is my current list.

I replaced Deeds with Damnations because most of the times Deeds were just expensive Damnations that die to Stifle, Qasali Pridemage or Pithing Needle. For other problematic stuff like Artifacts or Manlands there is still Pithing Needle, Maelstrom Pulse and Wickerbough Elder which is plenty.
With Damnations I switched the main kill from creatures to Planeswalkers which works out quite well. Liliana, Jace and Garruk are a good team. I'd like to add a Karn or two to the SB for control matchups but there is no room.
Primeval Titan was an awesome idea! It takes just one slot and takes over the late game via GSZ. Getting Ruins and Stronghold wins attition wars, espeically with Nihil Spellbomb in the maindeck to fight opposing recursion. If they Waste Stronghold just get it back with Witness and put back Witness on top.
Trinket Mage has been awesome. Between Needle, Nihil Spellbomb and Engineered Explosives there is almost always something useful and if not it just gets a Top.
Brainstorm is great with so many cards that do different stuff and one of the maion reasons to go blue. In combination with Trinket Mage it added a lot of consistency to the deck.
The deck is designed to be at least equal against Merfolk, Maverick, Stoneblade, Reanimator and Delver. Thus the SB focusses mainly on these decks, too. G1 against Reanimator is almost unwinnable, but G2 and G3 are possible with 4 Thoughtseizes and 4 addional Yard hate cards. Against Delver the addional quick removal spells help a lot, against Maverick and Merfolk you get a third Damnation. Against Stoneblade get Thrun, Ooze, the second Spellbomb and any number of Thoughtseizes or Shriekmaw (for Clique) depending on what much you want to side out against their list. Storm Combo is a horrible matchup, fixing it would take too many slots.

// Lands
3 [B] Forest
2 [B] Swamp
2 [SHM] Island

4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [A] Tropical Island
1 [B] Underground Sea
2 [B] Bayou

1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold

// Creatures
4 [WL] Veteran Explorer
3 [FD] Eternal Witness
2 [FD] Trinket Mage
1 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [EVE] Wickerbough Elder

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy

1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [SOM] Nihil Spellbomb
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top

2 [OD] Innocent Blood
2 [PLC] Damnation
2 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse

2 [M12] Garruk, Primal Hunter
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil


// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SOM] Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 [CMD] Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [PLC] Damnation
SB: 1 [MBS] Thrun, the Last Troll
SB: 4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 1 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 2 [OD] Innocent Blood
SB: 2 [LRW] Shriekmaw

I've been following this deck for a little while now, and am really loving the concept of it. It's been a while since I've been actively testing though, and the sheer amount of options and configurations possible in this archetype is a little overwhelming. Would y'all recommend testing a straight Green/Black version as a starting point?

Also, I was wondering if anyone thinks Profane Command is strong enough to try as a one-of. I'm willing to freely admit it's a little bit of a janky card, but in a deck that goes for inevitability I think it has potential. I mean, it's a potential win-con or win-assist in three separate ways (recur a beater, burn them, or go for the alpha strike) plus it's mediocre targeted removal on top of that. Not being tutor-able hurts it a little bit too, but even for :b::b::1: you can recur an Explorer and kill a Bob (or, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you could also recur and kill the same Explorer with PCommand for BB1 since you control the order in which the effects resolve?)... which isn't too shabby... Also it's a good friend of Eternal Witness. It's just always seemed like a potential sleeper card to me, and if any Legacy deck can use it profitably, I'd assume this would be it. But feel free to shoot it down (constructively :wink:), this is coming from someone who hasn't gotten around to testing yet.

EDIT: Also, I can't help but be a little incredulous at some of the seven-mana bombs in these lists. I realize in Rector lists, you're usually trying to cheat Knell into play, but does stuff like Hornet Queen really work? I want to run it, but this is Legacy and I is scared. Lol.

Hornet Queen is only good as 1-of to GSZ/NO for, but it's really effective at what it does: stopping some huge 3-4 creatures that might go lethal on you. Naturally drawn, it's not too hard to cast. Between GSZ for Dryad Arbor or Veteran Explorer, Phyrexian Tower and Tops, 6 mana is easy to hit. 7 is a bit tougher, but still managable. That said, 4 mana bombs are still important for the early game, with a few higher CC ones at 5-6 or even 7 depending on your list. You just have to learn when the best time to sac Explorer to Therapy is, when to GSZ for Explorer or just grab Dryad Arbor, etc. Personally, I still like the straight GB build with Hymn and Persecutor because you've got to have a quick clock to have a chance vs. burn and combo, and lots of people are playing UR Delver and UGR Delver these days.

The problem is that black creatures at 4, 5, and 6 are much better than green ones. Abyssal Persecutor>Thrun (Thrun will never win with an enemy Goyf on the board, for example). Bloodgift Demon>Deranged Hermit (Once they StP/Bolt the Hermit, you've just got a bunch of 1/1's, which is pretty underwhelming, since you just spent 5 mana+5 echo on it). Gravetitan>Primeval Titan. Gravetitan just makes people concede- the three immediate blockers helps immensely when you're at a low life total and swings the game in your favor. The problem with all the black creatures is obviously that you can't GSZ for them.

Duke: Welcome to crazyland. The first thing that needs to go is the idea that there are any bad cards! If you think there's potential to be had in Profane Command, try it out! This archetype actively encourages cards that nobody else in legacy would even dream of casting. That's one of the coolest things about it.

As far as Hornet Queen goes, I've played against a version that was running it. I just shot it with Master and then cracked Deed for 0 to wipe out the tokens. I'll grant that it pretty much requires a sweeper, but I think that a better 7-drop would be Gaea's Revenge. I've actually cut Knell from my Rector version, also -- the meta just isn't right for it. In a less stoneblade-y and more aggro defined meta, it can rip games wide open...but now isn't that time anymore, sadly.

As for a starting point; it depends on what you want to do/what you enjoy in decks in general. Pretty much, there's a version of this deck for that. So far, the major archetypes and colors, I believe, are as follows:

G/B (CalebD's version)
G/B Birthing Pod (some splash W)
G/B Abyssal Persecutor (Qweerios build a few pages back)
G/B/r (Qweerios new build with REBs/Pyros)
G/B/W Rector build (my version)
G/B/U Trinket Mage build (Tao's latest)
G/B/U Gifts Ungiven build (haven't heard anything on these for a while)

If I missed any, apologies. As you can tell from each version's namesake, they all do different things...in some cases, wildly so. It really just comes down to what you want to do, honestly. Caleb's G/B version is arguably the most successful, due to his patronage, but it's also one of the more boring lists -- it's largely just a rock deck that uses the nic fit engine to power it up, whereas some of the other builds try to actually harness that power a bit more. In a way, that would make it a good way to get your feet wet -- but at the same time, recognize that it won't reveal the true power of the engine to you. I think that the best lists of any of these versions will be somewhere in between, which is a lesson that I'm only now realizing personally. The danger of cute things is enormous with this archetype, and the decks actually have to be able to win games, too, apparently.

Tao --

No Phyrexian Tower makes me cringe, since that enables a turn 2 Jace or Garruk -- either of which is batshit devastating. Also, how's Liliana been in this version? It seems that you would want to keep more cards in your hand, so her +1 hurts you a lot more (Brainstorm). Speaking of which, Brainstorm is just amazing in this archetype, for sure. If you could find room for it, I'd recommend adding a Consecrated Sphinx. It was in the BUG version I was testing with, and I'm of the opinion that it's perhaps the best non-dragon 6-drop for this archetype, in any color. By the time it comes down, your opponents should be out of removal, and at that point, the Sphinx just buries them. Oh, what's that, you want to brainstorm? Okay, I'll draw 6.

I don't think I'll ever be able to bring myself to cut Deed personally, although some of that is due to the synergy with Sun Titan, which just breaks games in half. For a non-white list, it may very well be that Deed isn't actually good enough in the meta anymore. It wouldn't be the first time, and I'm sure it won't be the last, either. I don't really like how stripped down your GSZ package is -- I feel that with Jace and Brainstorm, in particular, you'd want to enhance your package rather than shrink it, since GSZ provides another shuffle. Although, I'll grant that with the full 8 fetches, Trinket, and Vet, it probably shouldn't be a problem. I'd imagine that you're missing the MD Ooze and Finks, at least...

...Which brings me to the next question: why did you cut Recurring Nightmare? Nightmare is one of the strongest things this archetype can do, and you're certainly more capable of finding it than many of the other non-rector versions, with brainstorm and Jace. You don't have that many creatures, I'll grant, but I think that it's probably worth it just to loop Eternal Witness. You have Volrath's, but I feel that Volrath's is just an incredibly slow, nerfed version of Nightmare, which also costs you a draw step. I don't have a problem with it being in the deck as backup, but I think you want Nightmare, too.

I don't mean this to come across the wrong way, but I'm going to say it anyway:

It appears to me as if what you're trying to do here is build a BUG Jacestill deck that happens to use the nic fit engine to speed it up, at the cost of control. My thoughts, then, are such:

That's an interesting idea, honestly. It may be that there is some kind of superfriends list that can use these engines to make it actually fast enough. it's worth exploring at the least. But if you do this, I think you cut GSZ, you cut most of the other creatures in general, and probably just rawdog the Vets with a few E.Wits or other minor utility creatures. Don't try to shove in all of the generally accepted Nic Fit core.

Alternatively, you could also focus on the other interesting thing about your list: Trinket Mage. Rather than all-inning on planeswalkers, explore what Trinket Mage is capable of in a Nic Fit shell. The first thing that comes to my mind would be something like Chimeric Mass -- an artifact that T.M. can get, that isn't actually a 1-drop. Granted it probably isn't a good example because it dies to everything, but I hope you get my point. Trinket can do all kind of silly things beyond the traditional 4 that you have listed (Top, graveyard hate of some kind, EE, and Needle). Could there be a version that actually runs stiflenought? I kind of doubt it, but off of a double Therapy they wouldn't have removal for it unless they topdecked. Food for thought.

But yeah -- at the end of the day, it's a really interesting list...but I feel that you're going in two different directions with it, and that each direction is suffering from the split, rather than being benefited by it.

Here is a Gifts version.

// Mana base
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
2 Bayou
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Windswept Heath

// Zenith Targets
3 Eternal Witness
3 Veteran Explorer
1 Lotus Cobra
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Wall of Blossoms

// Utility
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Gifts Ungiven
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Regrowth

// Gamebreakers
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Karn, Liberated
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Sun Titan

// Disruption
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Innocent Blood
1 Maze of Ith


// Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
2 Moment's Peace
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Tower of the Magistrate

My only major problems with it have come when I haven't drawn black in game 2 and 3. I've gone 4-0, 3-1, 4-0. 4-0, and 3-2 with the build so far. This build is probably one of the weakest to very aggressive aggro, but there's always trying to win with playskill! This is not the build to play in a highly aggro environment, though. That would probably be straight B/G with lots of Finks.

I'm thinking 2 of the Thoughtseizes should be Liliana of the Veil but I haven't had a chance to pick any of those up yet.


Has anyone played with Ohran Viper as a potential GSZ target? It is dual purpose and I've been meaning to try it but I don't want to cut any of the two/three drops.

Just for comparison's sake, here's the GBW version I've been toying with:



4 Veteran Explorer
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Dungrove Elder
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Path to Exile
4 Verdant Catacombs
6 Forest
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Windswept Heath
3 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Cursed Scroll
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Duress
1 Eternal Witness
SB: 3 Extirpate
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Thrun, the Last Troll
SB: 3 Hymn to Tourach
SB: 3 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Karakas


I don't run any high cmc bombs, haven't really felt like I needed them so far. Does feel like it lacks some late-game card advantage though, so I may add a singleton Skeletal Scrying like CalebD.

Richard Cheese, not to be a hater, but that list has such a normal looking curve that it seems like it's not getting much mileage out of Veteran Explorer... Don't you at least want a Sun Titan to compliment the three Deeds? Or a planeswalker or two?

Singleton Cursed Scroll strikes me as a little out of place, since there's no way to search for it. Also, how has Dungrove Elder been so far?

Hey guys, this is my first post here. I've been playing this deck since Caleb first posted about it on Channel Fireball. It has been pretty fun, but I can't seem to beat UW Stoneforge. What do you guys normally do to close that game out? It is always pretty close, but they will usually get a Jace/Elspeth or just attrition with swords/snapcaster till I am run out of gas. It is the most frustrating match I have ever played.

Here is the deck I am currently running. Again, it is very similar to Caleb's list.


//Lands
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Forest
3 Swamp
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
//Creatures
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Kodama of the North Tree
1 Deranged Hermit
2 Grave Titan
//Spells
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Dismember
1 Go for the Throat
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Skeletal Scrying

//Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Mindbreak Trap
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Damnation


The sideboard needs work and will be changing with some more playtesting.

Thanks so much for any help.

Hey so first time posting in this thread, been a fan of this deck for a while and just managed to build for the last Jupiter NELC. I am also the Andrew that played you Arianrhod just so you know. I liked your tourney report and once again i respect the win you got over me, def a blowout.

So the real reason I am posting is in regards to another card I have my eye on from DKA besides the new Sorin which is Vorapede!!! A 5/4 Vigilance trampler that can come back from non swords removal or be sacced to cabal therapy to make him bigger!!! And he can be tutored with GSZ. I like all of these things just wondering what you all think.

Ok, that thing is very very very good. Pretty much an auto-include as far as I can tell with good chances of being more than a 1-off.

@Tao,

I love the idea of splashing blue for Jace/Brainstorm but I am not convinced on Trinket Mage, especially at the expense of Hymn. Replacing Deed with Damnation isn't a good idea because you have less opportunities to break the synergy of the sweeper effect. Although, with a Trinket package, Damnation is definitely better. I strongly advise a Chimeric Mass as well if you intend to keep Trinket/Damnation.

IMO, the issue with using Mage is that you lose a lot of value out of your GSZ. I see a lot more manipulation in your list but a lot less answers, I would consider making a choice between GSZ and Trinket, playing GSZ, Top, Trinket, Jace, and Brainstorm seems over the top to me. Also, if you play 1 CMC discard in your SB, play Duress over Thoughtseize since you probably won't side targeted discard against aggro and losing life = 1 free storm count, 1 free shock, etc...

@Greenpoe,

The beauty of Hermit is that you don't care if he gets removed. When you play 1 card and your opponent spends removal on it and it leaves you with 4 tokens, it doesn't matter if they are 1/1 or 2/2, its a winning play, it punches through jace, and laughs at KotR for 4 turns. I have also found the echo ability to be a blessing when holding Witness/GSZ, or with Volrath's Stronghold, you can forfeit your draw step to generate 4 tokens a turn at 7 mana (usually the turn after you GSZ for Hermit).

@Arianrhod,

Here is why very few people sport Recurring Nightmare, it is:

a) too demanding
b) too slow, therefore;
c) easy to disrupt
d) underwhelming

It requires 3 cards in different zones and specific high-cost combo enablers that cramp up deck space. It takes a lot of time and mana to set up and pull off successfully. Your opponent can pick it appart with GY hate, targeted discard, land destruction, or any fast/aggressive strategy. Nightmare itself is worthless without key creatures, and pulling the combo off doesn't grant you an immediate win despite its cost, unlike many less-than-three cards combos with a lower casting cost. It falls within the "win more" or "too cute" zone because a single Garruk Hunter, or Jace, or Titan will give you that desired grip on the board that will grant you the win.

Note that I am not saying your deck is all of the above, the different Recurring Nightmare interactions are.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DukeDemonKn1ght

Richard Cheese, not to be a hater, but that list has such a normal looking curve that it seems like it's not getting much mileage out of Veteran Explorer... Don't you at least want a Sun Titan to compliment the three Deeds? Or a planeswalker or two?

Singleton Cursed Scroll strikes me as a little out of place, since there's no way to search for it. Also, how has Dungrove Elder been so far?

---

Scroll has been really good, and singletons really aren't that hard to find in this deck with all the shuffle effects and top, and Explorer digging out most of your lands.

I have thought about including a Sun Titan, but I've been finding that between Stronghold, Top, and Scroll, I'm going through a lot of mana every turn. Might throw one in in place of the second Pridemage or something anyway.

Elder has been really good. He's usually huge, makes late-game Explorers even more dangerous, and hexproof in Snapcaster/StP meta feels pretty good.

Thanks for the detailed constructive answers, they were insightful. I adapted the deck a bit and will do more testing and brewing with these in mind. So far the list still performs very well.

I somehow read Vorapede wrong or my spoiler was wrong. I thought it had Haste which would have been nuts, but it only has Vigilance so it isn't even half as good as I thought. So I think Deranged Hermit is still better because of Swords to Plowshares.

Here's what I'm looking at, at the moment. This is definitely subject to change -- I have a local legacy event on Saturday that I'm aiming to take down, but at the same time I'm definitely experimenting a lot more with my list. I'll warn you now that I'm trying some pretty questionable things -- mostly because they're questions that I've wanted answers to for a while now, and I feel that now is as good of a time to try them as any.

The list:

1x Dryad Arbor
4x Veteran Explorer
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
2x Eternal Witness
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Fierce Empath
3x Academy Rector
1x Master of the Wild Hunt
1x Kokusho, the Evening Star
1x Yosei, the Morning Star
1x Sun Titan

1x Faith's Fetters
1x Moat
3x Pernicious Deed
1x Recurring Nightmare
1x Phyrexian Arena

1x Skeletal Scrying
2x Swords to Plowshares

1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3x Garruk Relentless

4x Cabal Therapy
2x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Green Sun's Zenith

3x Bayou
1x Scrubland
1x Savannah
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
3x Forest
2x Swamp
2x Plains
2x Phyrexian Tower

//SB
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Xantid Swarm
1x Chains of Mephistopheles
1x Choke
2x Leyline of Sanctity
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Tribute to Hunger
2x Innocent Blood
2x Memoricide


A few points.

1. I'm not going to argue Hymn or no Hymn. There are many, many strong arguments as to why one should run this card, and I know that I'm talking heresy by experimenting with dropping it. I'm coming to view this deck, somewhat counter-intuitively, perhaps, as more of a reactive deck than a proactive one. Hymn is a proactive card that actively seeks to strip your opponents' threats before they have a chance to do anything. Instead, I'd prefer to have them waste their mana to drop a threat, and then remove it...odds are, they have a lot less mana than I do, so I will be better able to take advantage of this tempo gain. I'll reemphasize here that this is an experiment. It's not like I don't still have my 4x wolf Hymn to Tourachs sitting comfortably in my binder, ready to go whenever. If I don't like the deck without Hymn, I'll just put them back. But I feel that it's worth at least trying -- I don't recognize Hymn as one of the core cards that define the deck. That belongs only to Veteran Explorer and Cabal Therapy. Everything else is flexible.

2. No Tops. If I wasn't a heretic already, I am now. I'm testing out actual card draw instead of just selection, in the form of Arena and Scrying. I know Caleb and others have been raving about Scrying for months, but I haven't actually been able to get my hands on one to test with until now. Arena is something that I've wanted to try out for a long, long time, but I haven't been able to find the room to do so. Switching out Tops gives me two spots for actual draw. Maybe it's just my luck, but I haven't been able to find the Tops. I recognize that I'm not exactly fixing that with Scrying; but at least Arena I can tutor for. I've been considering going to three Tops, but then I know damn well that suddenly I'll find two per game, at least. My version also runs a couple fewer shuffles than most, since I'm only running 3 Zenith and 6 fetch. The ability to find Top is one of the reasons that I am intrigued by Trinket Mage -- it's definitely a powerful card, but, again, I want to test out some different options.

3. Xantid in the board. This seems like it could have promise, and could really annoy the blue-based control decks...especially off of a GSZ. I like the idea of turning GSZ into hate, but I've never really liked Teeg for that role, since he turns off a fair amount of my deck, including the ability to Zenith for other things.

4. Tribute to Hunger seems interesting. Qweerios has been having success with his Consuming Vapors, but I think I'd like the instant version better -- it's a solid answer to a lot of problems, not the least of which being a cheated-in and hasty Emrakul (Sneak Attack...also a Gamekeeper deck that someone plays locally).

5. I'm giving Thrun another chance. I've tried him before and hated him every time, but maybe the meta is more appropriate for him now. I recognize that he's a beast...he's just always underperformed for me for some reason. I think it's time he had another shot.

6. I'm considering taking out one of my 6's. I'm not sure which one, though, as each serves a very specific purpose. At the same time, I feel that taking out the Knell might have lowered my curve sufficiently that I can afford to keep all three. I'm probably not going to make this change until DKA anyway, as the slot I'd be opening would probably be for a 1-of Sorin. I'm really uneasy about this, though.

As always, constructive criticism is welcome. I'm determined to play this event without Hymn and without Top, though, so don't bother with those arguments. I'm definitely not saying that I'm in the right, but I feel that I have to try it without them to actually evaluate how good they truly are. Hope that makes sense.

I had been testing Life // Death in a build of mine, and it would often be "neat" but not game defining. Then I realized that it's a house once you get it to team up with Garruk Wildspeaker.
So easy to set up and practicly a turn 4-5 kill.
The card offers diversity too, with its reanimate spell you can get some usefull creatures back, or can finish the game with Life and a lot of lands and/or Garruk Wildspeaker ultimatum.

The deck would obviously look a little different, but it's something I'm going to test some more to find out how good it actually is.

Right now I am playing a simular deck to that of Tao, with Blue splash for Jace, a trygon predator and a coiling oracle. And sideboard 4 stifle.

I think Kodama of the North Tree is better than Vorapede if you really want a big hard to remove beater for five mana. Having said that, I notice everyone runs Hermit over Kodama anyways at the 5 cmc. Vorapede also just seems a little too vulnerable to Swords to Plowshares, imo.

Anyway, Thrun does about the same job as both these guys, for less overall mana to hardcast or GSZ for. Although I personally think there are arguments for Kodama in this deck.

I have to agreed with DukeDemonKn1ght. What we want at 5cc is a beater with shroud. I'm having trouble figurering out what to go for. Kodama of the North Tree and Vorapede both looks nice and it has to be tested.

Btw, has anyone seen the new Ooze? Predator Ooze looks VERY nice. Can enter at turn 2 and keeps growing and growing and growing and.... Indestructible is nice and Swords to Plowshares looks like the only card (almost) to stop it. What do you guys think?

Also the new artifact could be a littel bump in the road for this deck, but only a little :tongue: I know I'm getting some to my SB. Wicked card at 1cc.