[Deck] U/G Infect

Hello, everyone! I just recently got into Legacy and would appreciate some help. THIS is my current list, except I'm playing 1 more Gitaxian Probe and 1 fewer land.

1. What do you all think about playing 19 vs. 20 lands? I like the idea of having another Probe, but I can see including the 20th land for a slightly stronger mana base.

2. Can anyone either link me to a sideboarding guide or give me some pointers? The only real guide I've found is Tom Ross's, which is great, but doesn't really tell me what to bring in or take out. I understand that you may not always want to stick to a preset sideboarding strategy and that changing things up depending on what you see from your opponent is important, but some general advice would be great.

For example, my current plan for D&T is: (OTP) -3 FOW, -2 pierce, -3 Probe, +1 Crop Rotation, +1 Karakas, +1 Nature's Claim, +2 Krosan Grip, +1 Sylvan Library, +1 Spellskite, +1 Pithing Needle
(OTD) same as OTP, but -3 daze instead of FOW

Am I bringing in too much? Karakas bouncing Thalia has helped me out quite a bit, Crop Rotation in response to Wasteland and Rishadan Port is great, the 3 artifact hate feel necessary for Jitte and Spellskite, Sylvan feels great in every fair match-up, Spellskite will at least protect an infector from STP/Jitte, and Pithing Needle helps against pesky lands, Jitte, and Spellskite.

3. Why do most of the more recent lists only have 3 Vines?

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Originally Posted by battousai555

3. Why do most of the more recent lists only have 3 Vines?

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i treat vines as a counterspell for removal, bonus will be it's pump function. become immense is more explosive and is only for 1 mana (usually)
i boarded them all out vs any unfair for permission slots.

Vines is great also agains Wasteland. you tap Inkmoth for itself, a forest and you trade 1-1 (with the plus that he loses a land drop and a permanent)

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Originally Posted by poxy14

@dionykos and jesture: thanks for noticing the error, it was on reanimator where i lost 1-2... and my statement "surgicalling key cantrips" meant it was vs other combos (storm, shows), against reanimator you would definitely want them on targetted fatties on the bin. my original sb plan was 1 surgical/1graf/1tormod's... upon seeing numerous reanimator players i upp'ed my surgical to 2.

vs RUG, it did me wonders, as i was able to hit key removal spell in the form of bolt, i did drop my probes expecting him to play the spells i knew would be coming in (im a rug player too), thus saving me lifepoints too.. a timely surgical on wasteland too would be a huge blow out for them too, rug has so many relevant spell vs us, and anytime i could wreck their deck's composition will be fine to me.. im also looking for a dazed delver/goyf and get em all out. rug definitely is a tough matchup! game3 vs rug where i surgicalled his bolt and getting 1 more in his hand that proved key for me in winning that match.

i know surgical's slot deserves more useful cards, but i love having them in my sb, and proved crucial in taking out things i dont want to resolve again.

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Just to be clear, I'm not questioning the fact that surgical is a good card, I just disagree in the way you use it in some MU :)
I think bringing it vs RUG adds variance to your deck, which is not where I want to be in this MU. Surgical-ing bolt only to die to pierce/waste/dismember is not a risk I think is worth taking.

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Originally Posted by Hopo

What would be a working strategy against Mentor miracles? Mentor himself is a pain because it gets out of hand quite fast. You don't necessarily have time to ping 1-2 poison control per turn.

This is a question that would be answered best by testing the matchup myself but since I don't anymore have much time for such luxury I might as well ask peoples experiences.

I have always found the miracles matchup a bit swingy. It can go either way depending on the draws.

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I've found this to be one of Infect's most difficult matchups. The sad fact of the matter is that this version of the deck shores up a lot of the matchup weaknesses (fast clock with Mentor, early interaction with Daze) while still hanging onto the bits that we love to hate in the original list (Countertop, Terminus). Play the matchup as if it were regular Miracles, but be wary that you have less time and more problems to deal with. Apart from some stray StP's that might be in your sideboard, nothing is really going to make this matchup better except experience.

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Originally Posted by poxy14

i treat vines as a counterspell for removal, bonus will be it's pump function. become immense is more explosive and is only for 1 mana (usually)
i boarded them all out vs any unfair for permission slots.

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Thank you for the response! Any general sideboarding advice you can divulge?

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Originally Posted by battousai555

Thank you for the response! Any general sideboarding advice you can divulge?

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If you are playing against wastelands, keep vines and crop rotation in.
Against slow decks that aren't threatening your life early bring in sylvan library
Be careful with krosan grip it can still be countered by counterbalance
You have a lot of graveyard/reanimator hate, make sure you adjust for any expected meta
If you bring in grafdiggers cage (or switch your SB to include rest in peace) take out your digs and become immense
Th emore you play the deck the less dependent you will be on git probe.

Any specific match up you're curious about?

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Originally Posted by shocked439

If you are playing against wastelands, keep vines and crop rotation in.
Against slow decks that aren't threatening your life early bring in sylvan library
Be careful with krosan grip it can still be countered by counterbalance
You have a lot of graveyard/reanimator hate, make sure you adjust for any expected meta
If you bring in grafdiggers cage (or switch your SB to include rest in peace) take out your digs and become immense
Th emore you play the deck the less dependent you will be on git probe.

Any specific match up you're curious about?

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That definitely helps, thanks! So for Delver decks w/ Wasteland would you bring in the 2nd Crop from the SB, if you had my list (at the top of the page)? Or just keep the one in the main in? I guess the match ups I'm most curious about would be Delvers (all of them, really), Omnitell, Miracles, and Storm.

Also, for what kind of match ups do you take out Force vs. Daze? For example, my current plan for D&T is: (OTP) -3 FOW, -2 pierce, -3 Probe, +1 Crop Rotation, +1 Karakas, +1 Nature's Claim, +2 Krosan Grip, +1 Sylvan Library, +1 Spellskite, +1 Pithing Needle

(OTD) same as OTP, but -3 daze instead of FOW

Not sure if this plan makes sense.

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Originally Posted by battousai555

That definitely helps, thanks! So for Delver decks w/ Wasteland would you bring in the 2nd Crop from the SB, if you had my list (at the top of the page)? Or just keep the one in the main in? I guess the match ups I'm most curious about would be Delvers (all of them, really), Omnitell, Miracles, and Storm.

Also, for what kind of match ups do you take out Force vs. Daze? For example, my current plan for D&T is: (OTP) -3 FOW, -2 pierce, -3 Probe, +1 Crop Rotation, +1 Karakas, +1 Nature's Claim, +2 Krosan Grip, +1 Sylvan Library, +1 Spellskite, +1 Pithing Needle

(OTD) same as OTP, but -3 daze instead of FOW

Not sure if this plan makes sense.

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Your FOW vs Daze plan makes sense from a tempo perspective. Against a deck like storm any version I would keep all the permission you have available in and board out vines and crop rotations. Against delver decks it's a bit tricky cause they all play slightly differently

You'll want submerge to deal with any tarmogoyf/angler deck (maybe a delver that is kept back when you go for the win), crop rotation to deal with wasteland and targeted removal like swords to plowshares, and lightning bolt. You'll usually board stifle out, the tempo hit is great but people start playing around it, especially against delver decks you'll want to be the beat down and stifle doesn't play into that plan.
If you are playing a GBx deck (elves, delver anything) keep your vines of vastwood in, it is the only answer you have to abrupt decay and they will have all the abrupt decays against you. Against delver your best threat is blighted agent, don't be afraid to lead with an elf to draw the removal out of their hand and play the agent when you can protect it.

Your board doesn't have much to deal with delver decks it's really submerge, sometimes spellskite, crop rotation, and maybe flusterstorm/fow. I tend to play heavier on the permission in g2 and g3 I'm willing to board out become immense, git probe(s), stifle, and occasionally a brainstorm.

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Originally Posted by shocked439

Your FOW vs Daze plan makes sense from a tempo perspective. Against a deck like storm any version I would keep all the permission you have available in and board out vines and crop rotations. Against delver decks it's a bit tricky cause they all play slightly differently

You'll want submerge to deal with any tarmogoyf/angler deck (maybe a delver that is kept back when you go for the win), crop rotation to deal with wasteland and targeted removal like swords to plowshares, and lightning bolt. You'll usually board stifle out, the tempo hit is great but people start playing around it, especially against delver decks you'll want to be the beat down and stifle doesn't play into that plan.
If you are playing a GBx deck (elves, delver anything) keep your vines of vastwood in, it is the only answer you have to abrupt decay and they will have all the abrupt decays against you. Against delver your best threat is blighted agent, don't be afraid to lead with an elf to draw the removal out of their hand and play the agent when you can protect it.

Your board doesn't have much to deal with delver decks it's really submerge, sometimes spellskite, crop rotation, and maybe flusterstorm/fow. I tend to play heavier on the permission in g2 and g3 I'm willing to board out become immense, git probe(s), stifle, and occasionally a brainstorm.

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Having trouble accessing the exact list, Battousai. I'll try again when I'm not on mobile.

FOW's come out against other Delver decks, exception is the occasional must-counter SFM that fetches a Jitte. Keep a mix of counterspells in against D&T on the play, then -1 Daze +1 FoW on the draw (maybe 1 pierce on the play, 0-1 on the draw depending on how ambitious you feel.)

Against Miracles, side out 1-2 Hierarchs as they're often swept away by Terminus when they go after your threats. Keep an eye on how your opponent plays g1 to determine how many dazes you want to keep, then adjust accordingly on the play and draw. FoW's typically all stay in, you can side out a probe to make room as they're only good in the first turns and after that are CB fodder/looking at 1-2 card hands in the mid/late game. Crop Rotation is strong, but keep in mind that it plays very poorly in the face of CB. I recommend siding it out if you're not very experienced with the deck, but there are times when you would keep it in for the matchup.

Omni and storm are similar in board strategy. Cut down to one Vines and one Inkmoth, then bring in any relevant hate/permission. Storm players have also recommended taking out 1-2 Hierarchs on the draw, but this is more contingent on the number of spell pierces and flusterstorm you're running. You can also bring in an extra Crop Rotation if you play it, tutoring up a Wasteland is a fine play against storm.

Feel free to ask for more specifics. As an aside, I strongly disagree with boarding out brainstorms in any situation. Along with Invigorate, its the only card I would never consider sideboarding out in this deck.

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Originally Posted by shocked439

Your FOW vs Daze plan makes sense from a tempo perspective. Against a deck like storm any version I would keep all the permission you have available in and board out vines and crop rotations. Against delver decks it's a bit tricky cause they all play slightly differently

You'll want submerge to deal with any tarmogoyf/angler deck (maybe a delver that is kept back when you go for the win), crop rotation to deal with wasteland and targeted removal like swords to plowshares, and lightning bolt. You'll usually board stifle out, the tempo hit is great but people start playing around it, especially against delver decks you'll want to be the beat down and stifle doesn't play into that plan.
If you are playing a GBx deck (elves, delver anything) keep your vines of vastwood in, it is the only answer you have to abrupt decay and they will have all the abrupt decays against you. Against delver your best threat is blighted agent, don't be afraid to lead with an elf to draw the removal out of their hand and play the agent when you can protect it.

Your board doesn't have much to deal with delver decks it's really submerge, sometimes spellskite, crop rotation, and maybe flusterstorm/fow. I tend to play heavier on the permission in g2 and g3 I'm willing to board out become immense, git probe(s), stifle, and occasionally a brainstorm.

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Thanks for the reply! Against which Delvers would you bring in Spellskite? He seems particularly good against Delver decks that have Lightning Bolt because he's a 0/4.

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Originally Posted by Jesture

Having trouble accessing the exact list, Battousai. I'll try again when I'm not on mobile.

FOW's come out against other Delver decks, exception is the occasional must-counter SFM that fetches a Jitte. Keep a mix of counterspells in against D&T on the play, then -1 Daze +1 FoW on the draw (maybe 1 pierce on the play, 0-1 on the draw depending on how ambitious you feel.)

Against Miracles, side out 1-2 Hierarchs as they're often swept away by Terminus when they go after your threats. Keep an eye on how your opponent plays g1 to determine how many dazes you want to keep, then adjust accordingly on the play and draw. FoW's typically all stay in, you can side out a probe to make room as they're only good in the first turns and after that are CB fodder/looking at 1-2 card hands in the mid/late game. Crop Rotation is strong, but keep in mind that it plays very poorly in the face of CB. I recommend siding it out if you're not very experienced with the deck, but there are times when you would keep it in for the matchup.

Omni and storm are similar in board strategy. Cut down to one Vines and one Inkmoth, then bring in any relevant hate/permission. Storm players have also recommended taking out 1-2 Hierarchs on the draw, but this is more contingent on the number of spell pierces and flusterstorm you're running. You can also bring in an extra Crop Rotation if you play it, tutoring up a Wasteland is a fine play against storm.

Feel free to ask for more specifics. As an aside, I strongly disagree with boarding out brainstorms in any situation. Along with Invigorate, its the only card I would never consider sideboarding out in this deck.

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Creatures (12)
4 Blighted Agent
4 Glistener Elf
4 Noble Hierarch

Lands (19)
1 Forest
4 Inkmoth Nexus
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Pendelhaven

Spells (29)
1 Become Immense
2 Berserk
4 Brainstorm
1 Crop Rotation
3 Daze
1 Dig Through Time
3 Force of Will
4 Invigorate
2 Spell Pierce
1 Stifle
3 Vines of Vastwood
3 Gitaxian Probe
1 Ponder

Sideboard
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Spellskite
1 Sylvan Library
1 Crop Rotation
2 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will
2 Krosan Grip
1 Nature's Claim
2 Submerge
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas

Thank you for the advice! So if you keep in FOW for U/W/R Delver's SFM, what do you take out instead? Probes, Stifle, any delve cards? Also, for which Delver match-ups would you bring in any of the following: Pithing Needle, Sylvan Library, Spellskite, Crop Rotation, and Flusterstorm? Pithing Needle on Wasteland seems nice for my Inkmoths.

I found myself sideboarding berserks out a lot, basically against every removal heavy deck with counters (uwr delver, miracles, 4c delver). Maybe it is wrong and i sacrifice too much speed, but berserk is only good with other pump spell and I dont want to walk into card disadvantage so badly. I also side out crop rotation against delver decks for same reason.

BTW I tried white SB splash (1x savannah, 1x karakas) for 2x swords and 2x rip and I really like it, rip is nuts against 4c delver.

Last weekend I played small legacy sideevent at GP Prague, went 3:0:1 and then split finals with ur delver, may pairings were 4c delver (2:0), rug delver (2:0), mentor miracles (1:1), dnt (2:0)

main was pretty common list with 20 lands (1 wasteland), 1 stifle, 1 crop, 1 dig, 2 pierce, 1 ponder, 3 daze, 3 fow, 3 vines, 2 berserk...

sb was:

1 dispel
1 hydroblast
2 pierce
1 fow
1 savannah
1 karakas
1 sylvan library
2 krosan grip
2 swords
2 rip
1 grafdiggers cage

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Originally Posted by battousai555

Thank you for the advice! So if you keep in FOW for U/W/R Delver's SFM, what do you take out instead? Probes, Stifle, any delve cards? Also, for which Delver match-ups would you bring in any of the following: Pithing Needle, Sylvan Library, Spellskite, Crop Rotation, and Flusterstorm? Pithing Needle on Wasteland seems nice for my Inkmoths.

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Still don't think you bring in the full set of FoW's, 1-2 copies should be enough. I'd bring in any sort of cheap disruption against Delver decks, so that'd be a great place for Flusterstorm to come in.

Sylvan Library is trash in those match-ups, you really can't expect to trade life for card advantage while surviving for any meaningful amount of time. Needle comes in against Grim Lavamancer decks and Jitte decks, maybe BUG if you anticipate a lot of Planeswalkers, but Deathrite/Wasteland doesn't justify the slot. I think Crop Rotation is generally bad against Delver decks, as the card itself is negative card advantage and Wasteland tends to give your Inkmoths a little bit of trouble. That said, the card is very difficult to play properly, but has huge upside if used well. It's one of the cards I'm tempted to cut vs. any blue or Chalice deck, but usually leave in and win/get blown out 50/50 because of it.

Consider cutting a probe against RUG, as they're the fastest of the Delver variants. Some number of Dazes and Stifle come out on the draw,

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Originally Posted by battousai555

Thanks for the reply! Against which Delvers would you bring in Spellskite? He seems particularly good against Delver decks that have Lightning Bolt because he's a 0/4.

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Going to comment here and say that Spellskite is a very dangerous card to use against any green Delver deck. You're very likely to see artifact removal for Inkmoth in game two, which in turn is used on Spellskite to give all of your opponent's Goyf's +2/+2. It's best against UWR Delver, as they're playing a large number of removal spells (Bolts, StP's) and no Goyfs.

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Originally Posted by Jesture

Still don't think you bring in the full set of FoW's, 1-2 copies should be enough. I'd bring in any sort of cheap disruption against Delver decks, so that'd be a great place for Flusterstorm to come in.

Sylvan Library is trash in those match-ups, you really can't expect to trade life for card advantage while surviving for any meaningful amount of time. Needle comes in against Grim Lavamancer decks and Jitte decks, maybe BUG if you anticipate a lot of Planeswalkers, but Deathrite/Wasteland doesn't justify the slot. I think Crop Rotation is generally bad against Delver decks, as the card itself is negative card advantage and Wasteland tends to give your Inkmoths a little bit of trouble. That said, the card is very difficult to play properly, but has huge upside if used well. It's one of the cards I'm tempted to cut vs. any blue or Chalice deck, but usually leave in and win/get blown out 50/50 because of it.

Consider cutting a probe against RUG, as they're the fastest of the Delver variants. Some number of Dazes and Stifle come out on the draw,


Going to comment here and say that Spellskite is a very dangerous card to use against any green Delver deck. You're very likely to see artifact removal for Inkmoth in game two, which in turn is used on Spellskite to give all of your opponent's Goyf's +2/+2. It's best against UWR Delver, as they're playing a large number of removal spells (Bolts, StP's) and no Goyfs.

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I completely agree with what Jesture is saying here. Sylvan Library is awful versus delver decks. You're going to bring it in when your life total isn't a factor against decks like miracles.

I don't run spellskite in legacy for the reasons jesture pointed out. Looking at your list I would bring him in against lightning bolt just like you would in modern. You could also bring it against abrupt decay but the artifact hate will be real.

Thanks for the help, guys! Would you say the 4 bolts and 0-2 Forked Bolts that tend to be in Grixis Delver/Control warrant a Spellskite from the board? Seems like it'd be good to me, but I'm still assembling the deck and don't have any Grixis experience yet. Also, any advice in general for the match-up? I saw an Infect player beat Grixis Delver a few days ago on the SCG stream, but it looks pretty rough.

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Originally Posted by battousai555

Thanks for the help, guys! Would you say the 4 bolts and 0-2 Forked Bolts that tend to be in Grixis Delver/Control warrant a Spellskite from the board? Seems like it'd be good to me, but I'm still assembling the deck and don't have any Grixis experience yet. Also, any advice in general for the match-up? I saw an Infect player beat Grixis Delver a few days ago on the SCG stream, but it looks pretty rough.

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Spellskite is fine against Grixis lists, though I've found it does very little in the face of Gurmag, TNN, and Pyro tokens going wide. In all honesty, you're probably better off cutting the Spellskite out of the 75. I've been playing one for the mirror in my local meta, but it seems lackluster in almost every other situation. You'd almost always rather have an extra piece of permission, or some utility spell to deal with post-board hurdles. Keep in mind that Spellskite can only redirect half of forked bolt, and that any one damage on it will put it within bolt range, so it's not quite the immovable wall one would imagine it to be. Not that it's bad in the match-up, but take some time to think about whether or not it's worth the slot in your 75.

General advice for the match-up is the same as every other match-up. Don't overextend (into forked bolt) and play cautiously (don't go for the kill unless you have to / are certain you have it.)

I've completely gone away from Spellskite. Since the rise of Grixis delver and 4C delver (read delver decks with bolts, forked bolt, rough/tumble) I've been testing Absolute Law (1-2, typically 1) and at the moment i've yet to be dissatisfied.
I quite like it, as both RUG and Grixis have real problems removing it, and if they spend counterspells on it is fine for me as well.

I does not help against decay or STP, but there are more bolts in my meta than any other removal, so I guess its a meta call.
Note that it probably only makes sense to go this route if you already play the white infect board. Its not tough to cast if you do.

I've also wondered if a singleton wild defiance could be worth it (still not helping against DK or STP, but as seen in modern it can be insane offensively too). It basically gives your creatures pro red spells (Law has the advantage of giving pyromancer and tokens the "can't block" ability and make your own dudes quite the nice blockers themselves against the occasional Goblins, etc. I dont like the 3 CMC of course, but tapping out for it doesnt seem so bad to me.

Just my thoughts.

Also, to what extent do you guys use Dispels from the board? I have never tried it, but typically i need protection against instants, when i "go for it" (and pierces sometimes has zero effect).

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Originally Posted by Neffy

I've completely gone away from Spellskite. Since the rise of Grixis delver and 4C delver (read delver decks with bolts, forked bolt, rough/tumble) I've been testing Absolute Law (1-2, typically 1) and at the moment i've yet to be dissatisfied.
I quite like it, as both RUG and Grixis have real problems removing it, and if they spend counterspells on it is fine for me as well.

I does not help against decay or STP, but there are more bolts in my meta than any other removal, so I guess its a meta call.
Note that it probably only makes sense to go this route if you already play the white infect board. Its not tough to cast if you do.

I've also wondered if a singleton wild defiance could be worth it (still not helping against DK or STP, but as seen in modern it can be insane offensively too). It basically gives your creatures pro red spells (Law has the advantage of giving pyromancer and tokens the "can't block" ability and make your own dudes quite the nice blockers themselves against the occasional Goblins, etc. I dont like the 3 CMC of course, but tapping out for it doesnt seem so bad to me.

Just my thoughts.

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For those want to avoid the white splash and look for another passive tool against red decks, Chill is a card. I usually have 1-2 blue blasts in SB but if I expect heavy red meta, I fit one lonely Chill with them. It's mainly against bolts/pyromancers but has value against decks with Past in Flames and Blood Moon as well. Depending on things, it can be absolutely gamebreaking or just delay a bolt or pyromancer for a while. It's also one of the better cards against Burn, not that I have had issues even without it. White splash is different, I recommend trying Chill if you play UG.

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Originally Posted by Jesture

Spellskite is fine against Grixis lists, though I've found it does very little in the face of Gurmag, TNN, and Pyro tokens going wide. In all honesty, you're probably better off cutting the Spellskite out of the 75. I've been playing one for the mirror in my local meta, but it seems lackluster in almost every other situation. You'd almost always rather have an extra piece of permission, or some utility spell to deal with post-board hurdles. Keep in mind that Spellskite can only redirect half of forked bolt, and that any one damage on it will put it within bolt range, so it's not quite the immovable wall one would imagine it to be. Not that it's bad in the match-up, but take some time to think about whether or not it's worth the slot in your 75.

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Discussions in this thread are becoming very interesting :)

1. On Spellskite:

I've had similar experience with Spellskite. The main problem is that it is a slow card and while it shuts down one angle that your opponent has against you (mono-target red spells and abilities, like bolt and grim), a good control player will attack you from another angle (discard, countermagic, etc). For example, if you play against Grixis control and lead with Spellskite, you expose yourself even more to Cabal Therapy.

The only situation where I found Spellskite very strong is when it is also a piece of hate against your opponent strategy, for instance against Burn. This also explains why Spellskite is played a lot in this deck in Modern: it protects your guy while disrupting both Twin and Burn. This conclusion actually applies to several other protection cards in Infect, like Flusterstorm/Vines/Daze: they don't leave your opp with a clear way to attack you.

EDIT: for the same reason, I find Neffy/Hopo suggestions on Absolute Law (protection+evasion) and Chill (protection+disruption) very interesting, and better than Spellskite in Legacy.

2. On SB vs Delver:

I agree with the statement that Library cannot be used aggressively against Delver, however I tend to keep them in the MU. In my experience Delver players tend to cut on threats g2/3 and mulligan disruption-light hands against us. Which means that there is often a resource-trading game going on post-board, and the filtering power of Library is quite important in this situation. It is a MU where I'd rather have more ponders, but I'd feel uncomfortable increasing the variance of the deck post-board, unless your have bombs (like RIP I guess - I'm still not very familiar with the white splash).

Also, if I expect Pyroblast/Pierce/Fluster g2, I often decide to play g2/3 without FoW. This often depends on how much real hate cards the delver player has against us, but if they decide to own the stack instead of the board I'd rather let them do that (they are better than us at this) and be the 'green' deck - only exception being our Flusterstorms, which don't care much about their countermagic.

I have had experiences with my infect deck (stock list pretty much) where I flood completely or get totally mana screwed - way too often IMO. I know this happens to any deck, but I still think think i can actively fight this issue by increasing the can trip count.
We've talked before about people trying preordains, etc, and I will the next time be trying +1 or +2 ponders in addition of the singleton I already run.
There are typically 2 flex slots (DTT and STIFLE/3rd pierce often seen) and I will cut the pierce first. I rarely ever draw DTT and even more rarely i can cast it and even MORE rarely it resolves, so i will try without that also.
I think ponder is too good to only run 1 off, even with such a tight list, so I will let you guy know if it works better for me with 2 or 3.

I almost feeling splashing white in the SB is becoming mandatory. Some people are starting to run cards like Peacekeeper, which is absolutely killer against me...

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Originally Posted by RhoxWarMonk

I almost feeling splashing white in the SB is becoming mandatory. Some people are starting to run cards like Peacekeeper, which is absolutely killer against me...

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I wouldn't stretch as far as mandatory, there are options in U/G like Dismember, Piracy Charm, Pongify and bounce spells.

I don't see many decks playing Peacekeeper though, maybe it's just your meta?

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Originally Posted by Dissection

I wouldn't stretch as far as mandatory, there are options in U/G like Dismember, Piracy Charm, Pongify and bounce spells.

I don't see many decks playing Peacekeeper though, maybe it's just your meta?

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I don't really disagree, however, splashing white for RIP and StP also gives the added benefit of being useful against decks like Lands, Reanimator, and so forth...

I've tried Dismember, Piracy Charm, even really narrow cards like Gut Shot, not a big fan of any of them. For starters, its' very hard to dedicate more than one SB slot to any of these cards IMO, so I find it tough to put in multiple copies. StP is so versatile, I can easily justify 2 slots, the actual slot I hate using in my SB is the one I need to dedicate to Savannah. No real choice though if you want to splash white, but I really don't like using a SB slot on a land that doesn't <do> anything (apart from allow me to cast a few spells).

As for peacekeeper specifically, no doubt it's a meta call against people who play Infect. If Infect isn't popular in your area, you likely won't see many miracles players devote 2 SB slots for specifically that matchup, so again, you're likely right :)

How are people finding Wasteland? I run a singleton (with a crop rotation) and it's been decent at times but there's also MANY times I wish it would give me colored mana (any color). I'm really on the fence if it's worth playing the 1 of, or if it's better served as something like a Pendlehaven instead. Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by RhoxWarMonk

I don't really disagree, however, splashing white for RIP and StP also gives the added benefit of being useful against decks like Lands, Reanimator, and so forth...

I've tried Dismember, Piracy Charm, even really narrow cards like Gut Shot, not a big fan of any of them. For starters, its' very hard to dedicate more than one SB slot to any of these cards IMO, so I find it tough to put in multiple copies. StP is so versatile, I can easily justify 2 slots, the actual slot I hate using in my SB is the one I need to dedicate to Savannah. No real choice though if you want to splash white, but I really don't like using a SB slot on a land that doesn't <do> anything (apart from allow me to cast a few spells).

As for peacekeeper specifically, no doubt it's a meta call against people who play Infect. If Infect isn't popular in your area, you likely won't see many miracles players devote 2 SB slots for specifically that matchup, so again, you're likely right :)

How are people finding Wasteland? I run a singleton (with a crop rotation) and it's been decent at times but there's also MANY times I wish it would give me colored mana (any color). I'm really on the fence if it's worth playing the 1 of, or if it's better served as something like a Pendlehaven instead. Thoughts?

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I play 1 Wasteland in my maindeck and rarely I found it so useless to cut it at all.

Especially since the rise of Lands around and against Omnitell that has Boseiju in the sideboard ever (an uncounterable S&T is almost ever GG against us, unless we have an active Grip in hand)...

If you're feeling ballsy you can cut the basic forest for the Savannah and not run it SB. That saves the slot. Makes you a no outer to Blood Moon, but that card doesn't see as much play lately. Don't worry about Wasteland, most people save them to fight your Inkmoths anyway, so they won't color screw you.

I personally love the white splash for StP and RiP. It is a huge weapon against the other creature decks (especially BUG delver variants) and makes Lands much more manageable. I've upped my SB to 3 StP now just because nothing is more efficient and I almost always want to draw 1-2.

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Originally Posted by Svyelunite

If you're feeling ballsy you can cut the basic forest for the Savannah and not run it SB. That saves the slot. Makes you a no outer to Blood Moon, but that card doesn't see as much play lately. Don't worry about Wasteland, most people save them to fight your Inkmoths anyway, so they won't color screw you.

I personally love the white splash for StP and RiP. It is a huge weapon against the other creature decks (especially BUG delver variants) and makes Lands much more manageable. I've upped my SB to 3 StP now just because nothing is more efficient and I almost always want to draw 1-2.

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Hmm this isn't a bad suggestion, thank you. :) I am definitely worried about Blood moon, because there's literally no way to win once it resolves but I also find in my current setup, I have to go dig for the basic forest if I even suspect a blood moon could come down, which can end up leading to play errors, not having the right colored mana, etc. It's too late once the blood moon hits the table, unless I have a fetch already in play of course. Drawing the singleton forest once it already comes down is very unlikely....

I will give this a try and see how it turns out!

Has anyone played much against Imperial Taxes or D&T w/ 3-4 Wingmares? I have been practicing against my friend's more traditional list and the match-up seems a bit favorable, but both of those versions seem like they'd be way more of a pain. I played my first tourney at my LGS and did well with the white splash, but didn't get to see any of the D&T decks that I know were there (one of my opponents was nice enough to tell me) and what was in them. I think upping the STP count to 3 like Zachary K. (Svyelunite) said he just did would be great in this store's meta because I saw a TON of fair decks, but I was wondering if anyone had any general strategy advice in case I encounter either of the aforementioned D&Ts. Thanks in advance!

Edit: grammar

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Originally Posted by battousai555

Has anyone played much against Imperial Taxes or D&T w/ 3-4 Wingmares? I have been practicing against my friend's more traditional list and the match-up seems a bit favorable, but both of those versions seem like they'd be way more of a pain. I played my first tourney at my LGS and did well with the white splash, but didn't get to see any of the D&T decks that I know were there (one of my opponents was nice enough to tell me) and what was in them. I think upping the STP count to 3 like Zachary K. (Svyelunite) said he just did would be great in this store's meta because I saw a TON of fair decks, but I was wondering if anyone had any general strategy advice in case I encounter either of the aforementioned D&Ts. Thanks in advance!

Edit: grammar

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I frequently face regular DT, however have only met the mares once. The two STPs shine in this matchup, saving them for an early Thalia. Roughly said you only care about two cards in the deck; STP and Thalia. Even Canonists arent that bad. Wastelands can be annoying too, but especially after board, where you (if splashing white) side in savannah and karakas to cast your white goodies, you should have enough mana to not get mana screwed by them.. mostly.

Last thursday I faced that deck and I drew almost only fetchlands. My board was lands only, 1 crop rotation and become immense in board vs his Thalia, mother, SOFAI, Batterskull, some other dude and STP in hand. I EOT find crop rotation hoping to draw a vines to protech against STP, i however draw berserk. He wastelanded me EOT, but forgot his Thalia and now could not cast his STP with his one plains open. I swing for 14 trample infect.
Bad play from him and lucky for me, but we have some nice advantages against DT. Especially when you draw 3 cards a turn with your Sylvan Library B)

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Originally Posted by Neffy

I frequently face regular DT, however have only met the mares once. The two STPs shine in this matchup, saving them for an early Thalia. Roughly said you only care about two cards in the deck; STP and Thalia. Even Canonists arent that bad. Wastelands can be annoying too, but especially after board, where you (if splashing white) side in savannah and karakas to cast your white goodies, you should have enough mana to not get mana screwed by them.. mostly.

Last thursday I faced that deck and I drew almost only fetchlands. My board was lands only, 1 crop rotation and become immense in board vs his Thalia, mother, SOFAI, Batterskull, some other dude and STP in hand. I EOT find crop rotation hoping to draw a vines to protech against STP, i however draw berserk. He wastelanded me EOT, but forgot his Thalia and now could not cast his STP with his one plains open. I swing for 14 trample infect.
Bad play from him and lucky for me, but we have some nice advantages against DT. Especially when you draw 3 cards a turn with your Sylvan Library B)

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I would say we care about StP and Jitte. Thaila is not a huge concern IMO. In fact, Thalia can often work to our advantage, simply because it makes StP harder to cast, exactly as in your example.

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Originally Posted by Cartesian

I would say we care about StP and Jitte. Thaila is not a huge concern IMO. In fact, Thalia can often work to our advantage, simply because it makes StP harder to cast, exactly as in your example.

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I absolutely agree with above. Jitte, Stp and Wasteland are their best bets. After sideboarding also Ethersworn Canonist. Thalia doesn't shut you down and you usually need just one pump spell to kill and just like Cartasian said, it many times helps us more than them. An anecdote from yesterday: I could cast double Invigorate for the kill through Thalia while opponent was sitting on one open mana and a StP in hand. Thalia is mostly annoying when you'd want to cast Krosan Grip.

I played a local 44 player tournament yesterday getting to top 8 just to be humiliated by RG lands in quarterfinals - a nightmare matchup, by the way.

Round 1: Burn 1-2
Round 2: Death and Taxes 2-0
Round 3: Death and Taxes 2-0
Round 4: UR Painter 2-0
Round 5: Grixis control 2-0
Round 6: Elves ID after some discussions while 1-1
Quarterfinals: RG lands 0-2

I usually have no issues with Burn but yesterday all went to Hell. Death and Taxes looks more difficult on paper than it usually is in practice. The painter deck did largely nothing but chump blocked with Welders in two games. Grixis died in g1 to a fast combo and g2 I had everything I needed, including a perfectly setup Piracy Charm for Baleful Strix into lethal Nexus attack.

The lands deck is really, really difficult. It has so many relevant cards and you have to respect the token kill all the time. This might get better with the RiP-splash but not willing to walk that path just for this matchup. Maybe later. My SB was a bit soft for this yesterday.

And here's the list. Most of the time I sided out counters for better counters or more relevant cards. I used all the cards from my sideboard which made my SB relevant and myself proud.

4 Inkmoth Nexus
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
4 Windswept Heath
1 Wasteland
1 Pendelhaven
1 Forest
4 Blighted Agent
4 Glistener Elf
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Brainstorm
4 Invigorate
3 Daze
3 Force of Will
3 Gitaxian Probe
3 Vines of Vastwood
2 Crop Rotation
2 Berserk
2 Spell Pierce
2 Become Immense
1 Flusterstorm

Sideboard
2 Krosan Grip
2 Hydroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pithing Needle
2 Null Rod
1 Piracy Charm
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Echoing Truth
1 Bojuka Bog

Grixis died in g1 to a fast combo and g2 I had everything I needed, including a perfectly setup Piracy Charm for Baleful Strix into lethal Nexus attack.

This was actually in g3 but anyways you got me with that chram. :)

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Originally Posted by Stuuch

Grixis died in g1 to a fast combo and g2 I had everything I needed, including a perfectly setup Piracy Charm for Baleful Strix into lethal Nexus attack.

This was actually in g3 but anyways you got me with that chram. :)

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Thanks for the fix! :)
Didn't have my notes so I had to write based on my memory. I have zero recollection of the game I lost.

Been lurking on these forums for a while, and I played a 4 preordain list on Friday and it felt really nice (first time ever playing infect). The filtering felt really nice to be able to dig for specific types of cards (mainly looking for permission, pump spells, or threats). I am curious about the white splash though, the primary card being swords to plowshares, what type of MU are we looking for a card like that? Seems like the only time we would want that is in the fair MU, which seems favorable already.

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Originally Posted by rlesko

Been lurking on these forums for a while, and I played a 4 preordain list on Friday and it felt really nice (first time ever playing infect). The filtering felt really nice to be able to dig for specific types of cards (mainly looking for permission, pump spells, or threats). I am curious about the white splash though, the primary card being swords to plowshares, what type of MU are we looking for a card like that? Seems like the only time we would want that is in the fair MU, which seems favorable already.

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It goes in against almost every deck relying on creatures to win. Well RUG, Grixis and 4c delver can be nasty because of bolts, forked bolts, quick delvers and timely counters and therefore might not be so favorable after all. especially grixis has been a nuissance lately for me. Cabals and YP tokens to block is dangerous.

Im curious as to how many of you run pithing needle in the board (1-2)? I dont, but if i could find the room I would. I've experienced a lot of mana screw lately due to wastelands (not necessarily wasting my inkmoths) and Im sick of it. Im playing 20 lands btw. Also its a sweet answer to Jitte also.

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Originally Posted by Neffy

Im curious as to how many of you run pithing needle in the board (1-2)? I dont, but if i could find the room I would. I've experienced a lot of mana screw lately due to wastelands (not necessarily wasting my inkmoths) and Im sick of it. Im playing 20 lands btw. Also its a sweet answer to Jitte also.

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Needle and Krosan grip are my most sided cards, no question. It's A-class by being cheap, colorless and answering plenty of problem cards.

Took down an IQ Sunday with the following:
4x Glistener, Agent, Hierarch
3x FoW
3x Daze
Flusterstorm
Spell Pierce
Stifle
4x BS
2x Ponder
2x Gitaxian Probe
Dig through Time
4x Invigorate
3x Vines of Vastwood
2x Berserk
Become Immense
Crop Rotation
4x Trop
Savannah
Pendelhaven
Wasteland
4x Inkmoth
8x Green Fetchlands

SB:
2x K Grip
2x RiP
3x StP
Absolute Law
2x Pithing Needle
Flusterstorm
FoW
Teferi's Response
Vines of Vastwood
Grafdigger's Cage

Like I said earlier, there is so little Blood Moon being played, I dropped the MD forest to free up a slot in the SB and just ran the Savannah main. The meta was light on combo but had plenty of Grixis Delver/Control (where the RiP and extra Vines really shines). Before anyone asks, no I didn't get to blow anyone out with Teferi's Response this time :( But that's not for lack of trying!

Observations: The white splash seems like it would weaken you to Lands because of having another dual and stricter color requirements, but RiP is so good against them that it's worth it. Also, I don't think I'm ever going below 2 Pithing Needle in my board, that card has 101 uses and I never regret having them. Absolute Law is an absolute beating against the Grixis decks which rely on L Bolt and Forked Bolt as removal. Pyromancer not being able to block (or attack near as well) is a big benefit also. Maneuver the early game to draw out the counters and slam the Absolute Law to give yourself a much easier time closing the game out.

For the people asking about the matchup vs. DnT, in my experience this is a pretty easy win most of the time. They don't have many answers to Blighted Agent and basically can't stop your pump spells. Obviously a nutty draw for them on the play will get you, but that gets most decks in Legacy so don't sweat it. After board, Pithing Needle (if you run them), K grip, and the Plows make it even easier. Oh also, Teferi's Response, talk about a card that was specifically designed to beat DnT, wowza.

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Originally Posted by Neffy

Im curious as to how many of you run pithing needle in the board (1-2)? I dont, but if i could find the room I would. I've experienced a lot of mana screw lately due to wastelands (not necessarily wasting my inkmoths) and Im sick of it. Im playing 20 lands btw. Also its a sweet answer to Jitte also.

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I'm currently running 1 because of how good it is but it's certainly hard to find room in the SB for additional slots. I can't justify dropping below 1, it does too much against too many decks. Jace, Liliana, Wasteland, Jitte are just some of the cards that I've named with the needle that's helped me win games, games I definitely would not have won without it in play.

I would LOVE to bump it up to 2x but I find the SB so difficult to find space. Is anyone still playing with Hydroblast? I used to run 2, now I run 1 and I'm wondering if I should cut them completely.... they're great against pyroblasts (and blood moons) but otherwise, I don't find them to be overly useful. Thoughts?

Just my playstyle- but I hate losing to cards like Blood Moon. Probably not the most versatile sb card but one that I wouldn't feel good leaving home without.

Hydroblast feels less strong now that we're out of the TC meta. There was a time where players would main deck Pyroblasts, and Hydroblast would really shine there as a 1mana hard counterspell.

These days it's mostly a meta call, though I've personally felt the slots to be better off dedicated to stronger/more flexible cards.

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Originally Posted by Neffy

Im curious as to how many of you run pithing needle in the board (1-2)? I dont, but if i could find the room I would. I've experienced a lot of mana screw lately due to wastelands (not necessarily wasting my inkmoths) and Im sick of it. Im playing 20 lands btw. Also its a sweet answer to Jitte also.

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im running 2, i always carry them even on RUGDelver as it was so helpful in a lot of ways. i also observe enemy fetches on game 1 and with the help of probes too, u can screw their fetches with needles. i won several games just by it : )