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I believe that you are sequencing your threats correctly. Doing so this way as you may imagine is a way to maximize your damage output.Quote:
Originally Posted by appleseiter15
To answer your other question, you could lead on Monastery Swiftspear or Soul-Scar Mage over Delver on turn 1 to bait something like a Daze or a removal spell. Otherwise, I don't usually tailor my lead to the matchup I am playing.
People already read this: http://www.theepicstorm.com/tes-matc...les-ur-delver/
Any thoughts/ ideas? I personally like to play Eidolon, because it's also a beatstick.
New ideas.
Anyone tried this one: Ideas Unbound?
Last card in hand, cast Unbound, draw 3 cards, cast the 3 new cards (hopefully), discard hand (no cards left)..?
Or lots of lands in your hand, cast Unbound, draw 3 cards, do some buisiness, then discard some lands...?
Its a better version of the card-draw trigger on Bedlam Reveler. Since its triggers both delver/prowess and works with FoW. And the discard is only 3 cards, not your hand, and its discard IN END OF YOUR TURN on the Ideas Unbound.
I wanted to use Ideas in a mentor deck some time back, I think Ideas has a lot of legs in UR Delver since everything is so cheap. I'm a little surprised it never found a home in Pyro decks; where it'd probably be a tad bit better than here. I don't think I'd want more than 2 copies though, as playing ideas and drawing Ideas is pretty clunky.
I think the mana cost of ideas unbound is the big problem. For mainboard especially, I like to go on the assumption that I will only have a mountain and island as my mana sources. Often it is more of course, but the ideal really is 2-3 mana sources and if you fetch a volc you can usually expect it to get wasted. Bedlam is obviously an exception there, as is fireblast, but I feel the value they offer is enough.
I can see just having issues where i have ideas in hand but only 2 mana sources, meaning it is somewhat useless except as a prowess trigger. It just ends up stuck in hand for ages when you could have something more useful in its place. I suppose it could help when you have a load of countermagic or land you don't really need that you want to ditch, but overall I think it's too slow.
UR has split into 2 different directions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chatto
The majority of players prefer to go creature heavy, i.e. Emma's stream. When you go for this build, you're a lot slower, and you focus on establishing a board presence, couple threats. Stifle and Wasteland here make senses, you can tempo your way to victory.
The other approach is to ditch the Stifle Wasteland, focus on having 2 mountains on turn 2 and drop Eidolon the hate bear. I personally favor this approach. This is much faster, much Burn heavy. It's like traditional Burn, but with Blue cantrips.
From my observation, lands is gaining huge popularity Post GP. Lands can defeat Grixis easily, perhaps that's the reason. I'm thinking maybe Blood Moon can be an option somewhere in the 75.
There's also a third way! Check out this list I 5-0ed with at the end of May: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/player/Fra44Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
Cabal Therapy out of the board + Peezy solves the deck's worst match up, which is combo. Still, Lands is very hard to beat tho, but you can manage to do it with PoP, a fast clock and Vapor Snags on their 20/20.
Plus Peezy beats Strix and TNN pretty easily. I think this is the best UR build available at the moment. Also, I think UR is pretty well positioned thanks to its 8 bolts that make Delver mirrors and New Miracles pretty good match ups to face.
Obviously you want Tarns over Misties, I just can't afford them :tongue:
I would honestly prefer to play extra copies of Price of Progress in the sideboard over Blood Moon. Blood Moon is 3 mana which can be tough to get through lands if they are playing Rishadan Port. I have played Blood Moon in the past, but quickly swapped it for Price of Progress. I wanted to board it in for a couple of matchups, like Delver, but realized I just didn't want to risk playing a 3 mana do nothing enchantment when they are beating my face with a flying 3/2. I think Blood Moon is a lock piece and that you should only board it in if it will lock your opponent out of the game. That's my opinion on Blood Moon in this deck. That said it will just lock lands out of the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
To sum up my post, if you really want to fight Lands, then play Blood Moon, otherwise, I think you should be playing extra copies of Price of Progress.
Price of Progress and Blood Moon are for different things but also work together. Blood Moon turns all nonbasic lands into nonbasic mountains. Price still counts them. The real question is if you don't have enough room in your board for both, which one do you need more?
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I have found I don't have enough room in my sideboard, but Price of Progress has a wider range of application. Price of Progress is also cheaper and will do what this deck primarily wants to do; damage to the opponent. That is why I prefer Price over Blood Moon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
I agree that unless your meta has lots of lands (read: Philly meta) you do not have room for both.
I only occasionally play UR Delver, when I want to screw with the players in my local meta who know what I like to normally play, but when I do, my "3-drop" is Snapcaster, not TNN or Clique. He is super here, often giving me the win with bolt, snap, bolt, untap and swing (8 damage). I know that takes 4 Mana, but I often get to.
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I understand your point. Often we do have to race; however, Blood Moon is a permanent hate for both Grixis and Lands, which are very popular post GP. The idea of permanent hate over spell hate goes into the core concept of playing a hateful permanent Every Single Turn. Ideally, Turn 1 Grim Lavamancer, Turn 2 Eidolon, Turn 3 Blood Moon, this would force opponent into having the exact answer every turn. This approach is very different from tempo strategy of "let me stifle here and waste there, and then hopefully dodge discard and eventually Price for the win."Quote:
Originally Posted by TheManWithaPlan
From my experiences against Lands, if Lands opponent is trying to Port a UR Delver player, he's taking a huge risk of trying to extend the game in that grindy fashion. When the UR Delver player loses in this MU, often it's because Lands made a quick 20/20 via Crop Rotation or had an explosive opening, able to setup with Gamble and/or Exploration, Mox. When Lands player decides to take that aggressive route to try to assemble his combo asap, I doubt you'll get Ported.
Doubt this is a mutually exclusive argument, as I run both PoP and Moon.
Minor point, and maybe this isn't something you encounter in your meta, but the lands players here have stated that they have been having better results using Ghost Quarters in the port slots. No one here playing lands is on the port plan.
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As a Lands-player myself, I have to chim in on the discussion: the best hate vs Lands is without doubt Blood Moon. PoP is solid, and can be backbreaking, but please remember Glacial Chasm. Personally, I've been on GQ for a long time: it works best against all non-combo, non-heavy basics ('fair') decks.
Sorry for the double post, but changes have been made to the OP. Many thanks to TMWAP!
What are everyone's thoughts on Abrade in the sideboard? Is it unnecessary because we have smash to smithereens or is the extra utility of shatter or lightning strike a creature worth it?
IMO, you could run a badlands or USea and just run Kolaghan's. As long as you don't splash very heavily you should be able to play the deck as normal; and then when you hit an artifact deck you will have a much better card.
If you're unwilling to do that, run Smash. Besides, then you get to say "Lemme smash.."
EDIT: Null Rod is also an exceptional 1-of in the side. Sits in between artifact hate and storm hate. Misses part of BSK but hits Vials and things
Abrade is OK but just not as good as smash plus we already have 8 bolts for creature removal so ending up paying 2 mana to get rid of a creature doesn't seem that good. Smash does what we'd board Abrade in for plus advances our game plan with face damage so I'd run more smash before considering Abrade.
Anyone tried Manamorphose?
To do what exactly? Be some sort of cantrip?Quote:
Originally Posted by t000
deck thinner, mana fixer, prowess enabler.
Since the last post, these are my cmc 3 cards, the testing results in paper have been decent:Quote:
Originally Posted by Chatto
1 TNN
1 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Blood Moon
and 18 lands. I know it's slightly higher, but that number provides the consistent land drops to catch 3rd turn lock piece on time.
The bottom line comes down to: how many DnT players are in your local meta? The more there are, the more you want TNN and/or Vortex.
The more Lands + greedy mana base DRS decks, the more you prefer Blood Moon.
I feel running four CMC 3 spells might be the max, has anyone try running more than 4?
Next question: what should we cut to make room?Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
Nothing. Moar business, less jank...
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Exactly, manamorphose is real trash and not needed at all. You already have 8 cantrips + 4 probes, you really want to draw into your business spells. Plus manamorphose forces you to play your spells in situations where you didn't want to cast them. Lastly, you have really nothing you want to cut.
Garbage at its finest, in my opinion
Yup agree manamorphose offers us nothing. We don't need mana fixing and we're already running the 12 of the best cantrips we can.
Played a heavy stifle build yesterday. Did well but found myself cutting the stifle package (i faced 3x chalice decks consecutively)
Will likely be cutting that package in favor of TNN, who would have helped me with my D&T match-ups.
Are you playing Price and stifle main?Quote:
Originally Posted by potatodavid
YesQuote:
Originally Posted by Rekk
3x stifle
2x Price main
1x price board.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fra_44
I agree 100%Quote:
Originally Posted by Smuggo
I was hoping t000 would answer, because that was the purpose of me asking those questions. It's easy to suggest certain cards, it's harder to cut cards to make room for certain cards.
There is a large (for Utah standards) legacy tournament at my LGS this Saturday. Based on the local legacy meta, I predict the most prevalent decks will be: D and T, Grixis Delver, Storm, Bant Deathblade, BUG Delver, RB Reanimator, various Chalice decks like dragon stompy and eldrazi. I know for fact there will also be at least two or three Lands players out of approximately 50 total players, which is perhaps the match up I fear the most. Based on this predicted meta, this is the list I am thinking of packing:
16 Lands:
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Flooded Strand
2x Polluted Delta
1x Wooded Foothills
3x Volcanic Island
2x Island
2x Mountain
13 Creatures:
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Monastery Swiftspear
2x Soul-Scar Mage
2x Stormchaser Mage
1x True-Name Nemesis
31 Spells:
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
2x Price of Progress
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
1x Fire/Ice or Fireblast (I can't decide which or if this should be a 14th creature)
Sideboard:
2x Smash to Smithereens
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Null Rod
1x Price of Progress
2x Flusterstorm
1x Grim Lavamancer
2x Sulfuric Vortex
1x Blood Moon
2x Rough/Tumble
1x Pyroblast
Other things I'm considering: another blood moon, eidolon of the great revel, submerge
I would love to hear your input on this list/anything else you can share.
Lands seems like a good MU I think; if you're truly concerned about it add a TNN and a PoP (or a Snapcaster.) If they move to PFire lock your guys, prowess beats that, if they move to waste you out, you have 4 basics. If they have more than 5 lands they basically die instantly to PoP. The only issue is early Lage, which your counterspells should be focused on stopping (crop)
As always, consider your role in the match. Are they going the PFire route? Play defensively and they won't control you. Are they going the Lage route? Play offensively.
Don't forget Chasm-lock: if executed properly, we're in a rough spot. Still, UR Delver can be too fast.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chatto
Yeah, Chasm lock is definitely what I fear most. P-Fire is pretty easy to play around.
Its a 'free' deck thinner, prowess trigger that replaces it self with both mana and a card. Just a thought. I just love the casting cost of Getaxian, beeing able to cast something free is just amazing in this deck, and if its a cantrip, oh thats lovely! Ive been taking PoP in and out of the MB, I dont like having it MB. It often ends up being an expensive Shock.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chatto
Manamorphose is in no way comparable to probe. Probe is properly "free" in that you can cast it before even laying a land, you won't be casting morphose until turn 2. Probe also gives you hand intelligence so you know, for example, what to save a FoW for, whether to fetch a basic or volc, how to sequence your spells, Manamorphose does nothing but replace itself in this deck and might give you a single damage on prowess. We're not Storm, we don't need to thin our deck, we need to draw more business cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by t000
Sure, sometimes PoP can feel a bit dead when we are against a basic-heavy deck, but the vast majority of decks in legacy do use a lot of nonbasics and if it's a dead card in our matchup we can just shuffle it away with brainstorm. I'd rather run some exquisite firecraft or other burn spell as a replacement for PoP long before I'd ever consider manamorphose. Majority of the time though PoP is doing 4-6 damage and triggering prowess.
Quote:
Originally Posted by appleseiter15
I feel like you should include 1 Dismember to deal with Big Eldrazis, Goyfs and Delve creatures. Otherwise looks solid.
Anyone tried Miracle U/R Delver?
I'm trying a list with:
2-4 Temporal Masteries
1-3 Thunderous Wraths
0-1 Reforge the Souls
Creature base should of course include Young Pyromancer then. Anyone has tried this already (Didn't find a different primer) out or should I update here the list I'm using for the testing?
I'd be interested to see your list and hear how it plays.Quote:
Originally Posted by raudo
That's a good idea! Would you put it main or side? What would you take out in favor of it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonny Tempel