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Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jubeininja69
^can you go over the turbo depths matchup? how did you lose to it?
why the single mountain?
I know there is a guy on here who plays bg depths and is a cfb local. i think his name is solnox. did you play him?
Sure! Game 1 I mulled to 5 and then forgot to scry, but I had 2 BS, swords, terminus, land and kept finding good interactive spells and lands. Jace and mentor wrapped things up. My opponent had a window to kill me but made strange choices with his discard spells. The turn mentor killed I "stormed" a bunch with Swords/countering my own guys/spells for the win. Game 2 I kept a 4 lander with snap and cantrips and ended up just cantripping into more cantrips before dying without much fight. Game 3 was much closer, but he had Bobs and library which let him get a million cards and I punted a bit and waited too long to cast a mentor. I think this game was winnable if I played differently.
Overall, Turbo depths had been a pretty easy matchup for me, but he had like 2-3 safekeepers, bobs and librarys which were very good obviously.
I am not sure if it was solnox.
The single mountain is because I like to bring in Red blast against most delver decks, and play red cards against waste/port decks like D&T. One of the main advantages of playing mentors, no entreats is you only need 1 basic plains so you can afford to run a mountain. I have run the mountain in the SB before, but having just 1 "colorless land" MD isn't too bad.
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Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mike1987
Thanks FGC for providing the stock list! i have been thinking of going back to miracles at my LGS this week as well but that place is flooded with chalices. From big eldrazi, white palace jailer chalice concoction to merfolk. Do you think playing 1 EE in the main is good to combat chalice heavy decks? or should I just play 2 council's judgement in the main.
With only 3 jaces and 1 entreat, do you guys have a problem with ending the game on time? I have always been trying to speed up my play without compromising for errors.
Hey - no problem. If your metagame is full of tribal/chalice stuff, for sure, EE is where you want to be. Generally in an open metagame, I wouldn't expect this to be the case so I haven't played EE in a while. I'd recommend going up to three mentor side, as that card is the most flexible way of beating those decks. The CJ in the main is primarily there as an out to Jace preboard, but you could switch the CJ sideboard for an EE.
Jace/Entreat have been fine to end the game, Search digs for your wincons really well.
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Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control
I also prefer the Mentor Version of miracles.
My version looks like the following (still space for a one off e.g. EE, CJ, Flusterstorm):
Lands: 20
3x Snapcaster Mage
3x Monastery Mentor
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Portent
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Counterspell
2x Predict
2x Search for Azcanta
2x Unexpectedly Absent
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4x Force of Will
3x Terminus
I am not sure if Counterbalance is still worth playing in the post ban version. I had the feeling that i wanna tap out to early and then it can produce to many random card reveal situations.
What are your opinions on Counterbalance because i still see it in many lists?
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Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Deckerator
I also prefer the Mentor Version of miracles.
My version looks like the following (still space for a one off e.g. EE, CJ, Flusterstorm):
Lands: 20
3x Snapcaster Mage
3x Monastery Mentor
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Portent
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Counterspell
2x Predict
2x Search for Azcanta
2x Unexpectedly Absent
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4x Force of Will
3x Terminus
I am not sure if Counterbalance is still worth playing in the post ban version. I had the feeling that i wanna tap out to early and then it can produce to many random card reveal situations.
What are your opinions on Counterbalance because i still see it in many lists?
Counterbalance is very important in my opinion - I played the lists before search/counterbalance a lot, and they lacked a threat that your opponent had to respect as such. Counterbalance only needs to catch one spell to pay for itself, after that it should accrue value over time with your cantrips/snapcasters/jaces. It makes your combo matchups significantly better, and lets you lock the game up against delver decks to stop you getting burnt out. It's a very different card to what it was before with top, it's more of a long term value piece than a lock out.
Mentor vs entreat main is a less important issue and more comes down to playstyle - I like the mentor post board style of play as a tool to fight difficult to interact with decks or to pressure people after they've taken out their removal. Entreat lets you play the long grindy control game with an ultimate endgame that goes over all the aggro and midrange decks in the format, where mentor (or even gideon) would just die. (I've played both wincons a lot main post ban, this is just where I like to be). I will say, I wouldn't play main deck mentor without counterbalance as a way to protect it against removal, which largely won't be boarded out if you kill them with mentor g1. You're also encouraged to play flusters to protect mentor, this changes the deck significantly - with entreat your wincon takes one slot main deck and lets you dedicate yourself to the late game, which is just a powerful position to be in against a lot of decks.
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Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TheArchitect
Sure! Game 1 I mulled to 5 and then forgot to scry, but I had 2 BS, swords, terminus, land and kept finding good interactive spells and lands. Jace and mentor wrapped things up. My opponent had a window to kill me but made strange choices with his discard spells. The turn mentor killed I "stormed" a bunch with Swords/countering my own guys/spells for the win. Game 2 I kept a 4 lander with snap and cantrips and ended up just cantripping into more cantrips before dying without much fight. Game 3 was much closer, but he had Bobs and library which let him get a million cards and I punted a bit and waited too long to cast a mentor. I think this game was winnable if I played differently.
Overall, Turbo depths had been a pretty easy matchup for me, but he had like 2-3 safekeepers, bobs and librarys which were very good obviously.
I am not sure if it was solnox.
The single mountain is because I like to bring in Red blast against most delver decks, and play red cards against waste/port decks like D&T. One of the main advantages of playing mentors, no entreats is you only need 1 basic plains so you can afford to run a mountain. I have run the mountain in the SB before, but having just 1 "colorless land" MD isn't too bad.
It wasn’t solnox, although he was in the top 8 along with me as well. I was the lands player who drew in at first seed into round 7.
Your lack of paper magic does show, in the few times I walked by I definitely saw you miss at least two Mentor triggers. Interesting list, congrats on the finish.
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Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TheArchitect
I took 3rd at a 115ish person 4k at Channel Fireball today!
Congrats to TheArchitect! (dance~)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Deckerator
I am not sure if Counterbalance is still worth playing in the post ban version. I had the feeling that i wanna tap out to early and then it can produce to many random card reveal situations.
What are your opinions on Counterbalance because i still see it in many lists?
It's not an arbitrary decision for the community to arrive at running 2 CB, it's the result of large amount of testing done ever since post Top.
The role of Mentor
The issue here is the card slots when you have Mentor SB. If you MD Mentors, then you have 2 empty SB slots, in which you would probably put more combo hate in those (Mentor gives you advantages against all fair MUs). Now, if you have Mentor SB, does this mean that you would MD your combo hate? From the lists I have seen, the answer is no. This new interesting approach here is that there is no golden rule suggesting you need to run 3 Jace. I am willing to MD more Mentor(s) and MD -1 Jace as an experiment.
The MU against Turbo Depth
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...?DeckID=118561
This looks like the de facto list with Rite of Consumption. Notice how this version no longer runs Into the North.
It is entirely possible for us to just jam Mentor early, hoping Depth player has a discard heavy hand but not the combo pieces. If you play the long game, Depth player would assemble a hand of discard and combo pieces (maybe with safekeeper) to try to win in 1 shot, starting from our EoT. More Needle helps, there might be better tech out there.
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Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control
About cb, it's an all star, I never play less than 3. I feel naked without it against storm, Delver etc.
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Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control
Thank you for all the replies.
I add 2x Counterbalance to the deck, didn't know that Counterbalance is still such and important card and cut one Portent for a Flusterstorm.
My playstyle is more for the Mentor version (but with only 3x Mentor) because i love to play this card
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Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control
Lately there has been a trend to play more Thoughtseize effects. Can someone give a reasoning for that? I guess the aim is to get both players into top decking mode more reliably? Is that a viable strategy against heavier decks with a higher density of late game bombs?
Has the metagame adjusted to be more resilient to Hymns?
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Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ozimek
Lately there has been a trend to play more Thoughtseize effects. Can someone give a reasoning for that? I guess the aim is to get both players into top decking mode more reliably? Is that a viable strategy against heavier decks with a higher density of late game bombs?
Has the metagame adjusted to be more resilient to Hymns?
Thoughtseize effects in Miracles? Or from our opponents? Is this supposed to be in the pile thread? ;)
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Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control
For what is null rod in the sideboards?
As i understand its for DT, Storm and now also men of steel
since it counter
-led
-aether vial
-steel overseer.
Are there even more Applications ?
And would you even board it in vs DT or Storm.
For example isnt it to slow for storm?
And does it disrupt Dt enough by making them play critters instead of locking us out + creatures?
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Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Magicmarvin
For what is null rod in the sideboards?
As i understand its for DT, Storm and now also men of steel
since it counter
-led
-aether vial
-steel overseer.
Are there even more Applications ?
And would you even board it in vs DT or Storm.
For example isnt it to slow for storm?
And does it disrupt Dt enough by making them play critters instead of locking us out + creatures?
Hey - yeah the card is/was played as a flex slot for DnT, Storm and Eldrazi Post decks (with grim monolith/voltaic key). Now Men of Steel is a deck so yeah it's good there too. The card is awesome vs DnT as two of their best cards, Aether Vial and Sword of Fire and Ice, both get shut off by the card. It essentially just buys you 5-6 turns until they can flickerwisp + equip or something, by which point you should be firmly in control.
I haven't played the card in a couple of months, it's a pretty niche card mostly.
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Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Magicmarvin
(Nullrod)
For example isnt it to slow for storm?
Not at all. It's most likely that the game goes into a grind situation where they try to overthrow you in mid-/lategame with discard, their own counters and ultimately having more mana, e.g. by provoking you to counter enough mana/tutors to kill you with natural tendrils or by casting Past in Flames multiple times. Especially for the latter one Null Rod is really good for you as it cuts them off their artifact mana which is the common source for {R} in a combo turn with PiF or BW. It's also another valuable Discard/Removal which isn't your CB.
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Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control
Sigh~, Turbo Depths, annoying af.
game 1:
Depths player with 4 cards in hand, cast Crop Rotation, no mox, no additional green source in play.
me: counter it.
Depths player: Elvish Spirit Guide, cast Crop Rotation again.
me: I hate my life, no way I would suspect that's his hand
game 2:
Depths player: puts down Boseiju
me: #$@#, need to find Blood Moon/From the Ashes ASAP.
Next turn
Depths player: make 20/20
me: no stifle
Depths player: Cast Rites of Consumption, sac 20/20 via Boseiju mana.
me: I wish I had Clique SB.
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Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
Sigh~, Turbo Depths, annoying af.
game 1:
Depths player with 4 cards in hand, cast Crop Rotation, no mox, no additional green source in play.
me: counter it.
Depths player: Elvish Spirit Guide, cast Crop Rotation again.
me: I hate my life, no way I would suspect that's his hand
game 2:
Depths player: puts down Boseiju
me: #$@#, need to find Blood Moon/From the Ashes ASAP.
Next turn
Depths player: make 20/20
me: no stifle
Depths player: Cast Rites of Consumption, sac 20/20 via Boseiju mana.
me: I wish I had Clique SB.
This is how i've been feeling in the Infect and Food Chain matchups. Don't have turbo depths at my local meta but I seriously cannot catch a break vs infect or food chain. Infect just overwhelms my answers, and food chain is literally impossible to fully disrupt, and just grinds me out of the game.
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Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control
Haven't played magic in about 4 months, decide to go to a small weekly last night. Decide for some reason to play a nonblue deck. Forgot how miserable that is. Going to come back to Miracles for next week.
Interested to hear where the seasoned veterans have landed on the mainboard UA/CJ slot. If you're going to play one maindeck, which do you prefer and why? I've seen lists from MODO that play either (or even one of each) but I'm super behind on the meta after the last 4 months.
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Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TheArchitect
From the ashes is not a card I feel strongly about and could be something else. I would like something that helps the Depths/lands matchup though.
Blood Sun? Hurts yourself by shutting off fetchlands (like Blood Moon does), but it shuts down their gameplan, cantrips, and I believe it doesn't give them a 20/20 if they destroy it unlike Blood Moon (not sure about this last point?).
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Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control
Blood Sun and Blood Moon both cause a Dark Depths to enter the battlefield with 0 counters; it will become Marit Lage the Moon / Sun leaves play.
I don't know I about Blood Sun vs Moon. Without top, we do a lot less with random colorless mana than before, but fetches doing nothing can be a problem. Blood Sun does little against the generic greedy mana base since duals still do their thing. For what its worth, I think Back to Basics or From the Ashes are much better non basic hate right now vs the field, but Blood Moon is likely the best place to be vs Turbo Depths.
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Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control
I dont think that a card like blood moon is a good answer to turbo depths since cards like abrupt decay just become an uncounterable marit lage.
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Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kyuuri117
This is how i've been feeling in the Infect and Food Chain matchups. Don't have turbo depths at my local meta but I seriously cannot catch a break vs infect or food chain. Infect just overwhelms my answers, and food chain is literally impossible to fully disrupt, and just grinds me out of the game.
Both those matchups are tough. Infect is slightly favoured vs us I'd say, but you must have a pretty good understanding of how to play vs the deck too to stand a chance, they'll punish a tiny misstep heavily. Food Chain feels a bit harder than Infect for me. They threaten a combo plus have some insane grinding power. Our route to victory usually involves Jace, though Search is a great addition for the matchup, if it flips to get under a Decay you're probably in decent shape. After Jace, blasts are our best cards. How to play vs them really depends on how you play generally, and how you sb. How do you find you usually lose the matchup?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cdnza
Haven't played magic in about 4 months, decide to go to a small weekly last night. Decide for some reason to play a nonblue deck. Forgot how miserable that is. Going to come back to Miracles for next week.
Interested to hear where the seasoned veterans have landed on the mainboard UA/CJ slot. If you're going to play one maindeck, which do you prefer and why? I've seen lists from MODO that play either (or even one of each) but I'm super behind on the meta after the last 4 months.
I've gone off UA completely, CJ has consistently done the job. It's a clunker and not always the most pretty, but there was just too many situations where UA didn't do what I wanted for me to justify it. I have 1 CJ md and 1 more in the sb, pretty happy with them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
phg22
Blood Sun and Blood Moon both cause a Dark Depths to enter the battlefield with 0 counters; it will become Marit Lage the Moon / Sun leaves play.
I don't know I about Blood Sun vs Moon. Without top, we do a lot less with random colorless mana than before, but fetches doing nothing can be a problem. Blood Sun does little against the generic greedy mana base since duals still do their thing. For what its worth, I think Back to Basics or From the Ashes are much better non basic hate right now vs the field, but Blood Moon is likely the best place to be vs Turbo Depths.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Magicmarvin
I dont think that a card like blood moon is a good answer to turbo depths since cards like abrupt decay just become an uncounterable marit lage.
I agree with phg22 and Magicmarvin, I don't like Blood Moon and especially Blood Sun in our deck. Depths is a pretty good matchup. They've been sideboarding some more nasty stuff than usual recently, like Safekeepers, more Sylvans etc but we get get through them. I've been leaving in 3 copies of Terminus now to respect Safekeeper. Their scariest sb plan is Boseiju + Rite of Consumption. That one I'm not quite sure what to do vs yet, though I've not faced it myself, might need a plan if it picks up.
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Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Whitefaces
Their scariest sb plan is Boseiju + Rite of Consumption. That one I'm not quite sure what to do vs yet, though I've not faced it myself, might need a plan if it picks up.
http://static.starcitygames.com/sale...ian_German.jpg
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Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Whitefaces
Both those matchups are tough. Infect is slightly favoured vs us I'd say, but you must have a pretty good understanding of how to play vs the deck too to stand a chance, they'll punish a tiny misstep heavily. Food Chain feels a bit harder than Infect for me. They threaten a combo plus have some insane grinding power. Our route to victory usually involves Jace, though Search is a great addition for the matchup, if it flips to get under a Decay you're probably in decent shape. After Jace, blasts are our best cards. How to play vs them really depends on how you play generally, and how you sb. How do you find you usually lose the matchup?
For some time before Top was banned I played Food Chain and the most important card was always Manipulate Fate: If you managed to resolve it you could grind hard and always threaten combo. Therefore I would at times not cantrip blindly T1 to keep up Blasts: As Whitefaces said Blasts really are your lifeline.
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Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hofzge
For some time before Top was banned I played Food Chain and the most important card was always Manipulate Fate: If you managed to resolve it you could grind hard and always threaten combo. Therefore I would at times not cantrip blindly T1 to keep up Blasts: As Whitefaces said Blasts really are your lifeline.
I totally agree. I've played a fair bit of Food Chain myself too and I remember not playing it into open mana usually, or set up up a turn with two copies to get it through. I even tried bringing in Flusters as Miracles just for it, but that was a bit too narrow I think.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Stevestamopz
Misdirection
:cool:
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Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Whitefaces
I've gone off UA completely, CJ has consistently done the job. It's a clunker and not always the most pretty, but there was just too many situations where UA didn't do what I wanted for me to justify it. I have 1 CJ md and 1 more in the sb, pretty happy with them.
Thanks for the reply Whitefaces, really appreciate it. What does your IRL sideboard look like at the moment? iirc your main is currently something like 3 CB, 1 CS, 2 SfA, 1 CJ?
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Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cdnza
Thanks for the reply Whitefaces, really appreciate it. What does your IRL sideboard look like at the moment? iirc your main is currently something like 3 CB, 1 CS, 2 SfA, 1 CJ?
Close! I'm running 2 CS still. This is my list atm with some bonus sb tables attached - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets..._4w/edit#gid=0
You can tinker with a bunch of the numbers, depends what you're expecting to face, I feel like it is pretty well rounded to fight most things except Cloudpost decks. The plan there is just Mentor, sometimes gets it.
There are a few slots in it that I think can be changed up (some I don't have in my deck, you'll have to read between the lines):
3rd CB - great vs the top tier decks and combo but worse vs 'stuff'
3rd Predict - great vs a midrange/control heavy meta, OK vs Delver and slow combo, bad vs fast combo. I also think Search has filled some of this cards role, less important with entreat too.
2nd Counterspell - poor vs Delver, great vs midrange/control and slow combo, OK vs fast combo
4th Terminus - this is something I'm not a fan of cutting, but others have had success with 3 Terminus 1 Supreme Verdict - OK vs delver and midrange/control (mirror post sb mostly), poor vs dnt/elves etc
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Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control
Super nice of you to share that SB guide with us! Looks like I need to pick up a third Flusterstorm...
Something that intrigues me is you seem to be boarding in the fourth Snapcaster Mage in every matchup. Have any words of wisdom on this topic?
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Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cdnza
Super nice of you to share that SB guide with us! Looks like I need to pick up a third Flusterstorm...
Something that intrigues me is you seem to be boarding in the fourth Snapcaster Mage in every matchup. Have any words of wisdom on this topic?
Worth it, I think the third Fluster is pretty crucial for the deck.
Yeah sure, it gets asked about a lot. It's because after boarding the deck has more spells to flashback basically, as simple as that sounds. It's very weird to have a sb card that's already in the maindeck and also comes in vs everything, but since vs every match we're bringing in more high impact spells its worth goes up. In G1 we don't have as many good spells to flash back typically, still enough to play 3, but more than that can feel clunky with diminishing returns. As long as the sb isn't scattered with 1-ofs, it's essentially a 4th Blast, 3rd Disenchant, 4th Surgical etc.
Doesn't mean it's always correct to play a snapcaster in the sb though. My sb has a lot of spells so it becomes better, if you're playing stuff like hatebears (priest, canonist, clique), EE, B2B/Moon and things like that then it becomes worse.
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Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control
Great explanation, thanks again! Going to try to play with a list very similar to yours (maybe +/- Predict/Counterspell) next week. Should be interesting since the last time I was playing the deck it was when we were all fooling around with Soothsaying...
Going to have to re-read ItIsUnfair's big rant doc in preparation I think!
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Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FGCmtg
Thoughtseize effects in Miracles? Or from our opponents? Is this supposed to be in the pile thread? ;)
It was indeed. My apologies..
I abandoned Miracles after the Top ban, and was homeless for a long time. Have since picked up Pile, but am now eyeing Miracles again :)
I find it very hard to believe CB is viable without top. My inclanation would be to jam more straight up Counterspells (and Snaps for the CA), but I can see that people are having success with CB still. I don't get it, but I should probably just test it and see...
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Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Stevestamopz
Don't think Misdirection is the SB solution you would want against Turbo Depths. Turbo Depth is packed with Duress and Thoughtseize. As long as you're not pressuring Depth player with Mentor, they will sculpt their hand and start their combo sequence with a discard. Misdirection doesn't interact well against those discard spells.
I would argue that Clique is the answer to most of these combo match-ups, as in Food Chain and Turbo Depths. Clique actually sends Griffin into the grave, disrupts combo pieces like Rites and Food Chain. Worst case scenario, it can be served as an emergency block for the 20/20 (yes, you could still die to removal or crop rotation).
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Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control
What about playing karakas as a one-off?
This deck plays so many cantrips that it should be easy to find.
I know that Turbo depths can set a needle on karakas but a lot of the old miracle lists played at least one karakas.
Why isn't it played, nowadays? Also what happened to the legend list of Joe lossett?
Karakas could help against S&S, Reanimator and depths.
Gesendet von meinem Aquaris X5 mit Tapatalk
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Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Deckerator
What about playing karakas as a one-off?
This deck plays so many cantrips that it should be easy to find.
I know that Turbo depths can set a needle on karakas but a lot of the old miracle lists played at least one karakas.
Why isn't it played, nowadays? Also what happened to the legend list of Joe lossett?
Karakas could help against S&S, Reanimator and depths.
Gesendet von meinem Aquaris X5 mit Tapatalk
Karakas generally doesn't do enough in the current builds to warrant playing. SnS/Reanimator want to have Griselbrand in play, Karakas doesn't normally beat Griselbrand. The more popular decks in the format (Delver) see Karakas as a wasteable plains, and cutting blue sources in the deck is risky/unadvisable.
Legends Miracles died with top - essentially you needed the top to lock your opponent out and give you consistency so you could play a bunch of clunky 3 and 4 drops, which you can't really afford to do any more.
Depths is a good matchup, which we can beat with swords, snapcaster and jace, with flusters post board - karakas is too much of a risk in other matchups to warrant having the card again.
This is why the card doesn't see play any more (I think it's really sweet though, v cool card.. just yeah.. risky in the metagame against the closer matchups)
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Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
Don't think Misdirection is the SB solution you would want against Turbo Depths. Turbo Depth is packed with Duress and Thoughtseize. As long as you're not pressuring Depth player with Mentor, they will sculpt their hand and start their combo sequence with a discard. Misdirection doesn't interact well against those discard spells.
I would argue that Clique is the answer to most of these combo match-ups, as in Food Chain and Turbo Depths. Clique actually sends Griffin into the grave, disrupts combo pieces like Rites and Food Chain. Worst case scenario, it can be served as an emergency block for the 20/20 (yes, you could still die to removal or crop rotation).
Well, Misdirection isn't a bad card against Thoughtseize. It trades 2 for 2 (Thoughtseize and their worst non-land card for Misdirection and your worst blue card) while making them reveal their hand, pay B and lose 2 life. Not amazing but you could do worse. Of course, it's sadly completely ineffective against Duress since it only targets opponents.
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Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FGCmtg
Karakas generally doesn't do enough in the current builds to warrant playing. SnS/Reanimator want to have Griselbrand in play, Karakas doesn't normally beat Griselbrand. The more popular decks in the format (Delver) see Karakas as a wasteable plains, and cutting blue sources in the deck is risky/unadvisable.
Legends Miracles died with top - essentially you needed the top to lock your opponent out and give you consistency so you could play a bunch of clunky 3 and 4 drops, which you can't really afford to do any more.
Depths is a good matchup, which we can beat with swords, snapcaster and jace, with flusters post board - karakas is too much of a risk in other matchups to warrant having the card again.
This is why the card doesn't see play any more (I think it's really sweet though, v cool card.. just yeah.. risky in the metagame against the closer matchups)
This kind of post is misleading.
First of all, why give the impression that you must run Legendary creatures in Miracles if you decide to run a Karakas? Running a Karakas does not automatically falls into a conclusion of Legend Miracles.
Second, how did you draw the conclusion that Karakas doesn't normally beat Griselbrand? I question your methodology and assessment, especially you wrote a blanket statement without context. Say Griselbrand in Sneak and Show, I can see how a resolved Griselbrand basically ends the game. However, I have kept a hand of 5 lands and 2 spells, with Karakas as one of the lands and defeat BR Reanimator, in multiple occasions. I would argue the opposite. If you start the game against BR Reanimator and they reveal a Chancellor of the Annex, Karakas might be a better way to interact than Surgical, assuming they did not discard and dig Annex out of grave, went for land petal entomb for Griselbrand, reanimate instead.
Third, thinking StP alone will carry you to victory against Turbo Depths is feeding into a false sense of security. sylvan safekeeper and crop rotate into Sejiri Steppe are plenty of ways to get around StP. Gaining Flusterstorm post board is simply not enough. StP and Fluster don't even interact against Boseiju + Rites. From my experience, do everything you can to hold off the first 20/20 attempt, which might require you to fight off discard. If Depth player is slow off the gate, apply pressure even at the cost of taking a risk.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eldariel
Well, Misdirection isn't a bad card against Thoughtseize. It trades 2 for 2 (Thoughtseize and their worst non-land card for Misdirection and your worst blue card) while making them reveal their hand, pay B and lose 2 life. Not amazing but you could do worse. Of course, it's sadly completely ineffective against Duress since it only targets opponents.
Say I'm BR Reanimator player, I thoughtseize you and you misdirect it back to me, I reveal my hand and choose to discard Griselbrand, what did the Misdirection accomplish? Rather, I'm not saying you should SB-in Misdirection against BR Reanimator, I'm saying blanket statement without context is not helpful.
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Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
This kind of post is misleading.
First of all, why give the impression that you must run Legendary creatures in Miracles if you decide to run a Karakas? Running a Karakas does not automatically falls into a conclusion of Legend Miracles.
Second, how did you draw the conclusion that Karakas doesn't normally beat Griselbrand? I question your methodology and assessment, especially you wrote a blanket statement without context. Say Griselbrand in Sneak and Show, I can see how a resolved Griselbrand basically ends the game. However, I have kept a hand of 5 lands and 2 spells, with Karakas as one of the lands and defeat BR Reanimator, in multiple occasions. I would argue the opposite. If you start the game against BR Reanimator and they reveal a Chancellor of the Annex, Karakas might be a better way to interact than Surgical, assuming they did not discard and dig Annex out of grave, went for land petal entomb for Griselbrand, reanimate instead.
Third, thinking StP alone will carry you to victory against Turbo Depths is feeding into a false sense of security. sylvan safekeeper and crop rotate into Sejiri Steppe are plenty of ways to get around StP. Gaining Flusterstorm post board is simply not enough. StP and Fluster don't even interact against Boseiju + Rites. From my experience, do everything you can to hold off the first 20/20 attempt, which might require you to fight off discard. If Depth player is slow off the gate, apply pressure even at the cost of taking a risk.
Say I'm BR Reanimator player, I thoughtseize you and you misdirect it back to me, I reveal my hand and choose to discard Griselbrand, what did the Misdirection accomplish? Rather, I'm not saying you should SB-in Misdirection against BR Reanimator, I'm saying blanket statement without context is not helpful.
Sorry, I thought some of these things would be obvious.
At no point did I say you had to run legendary creatures to make Karakas good - but the initial post wanted to know why 'Legends Miracles' is not being played any longer, and I gave my response to that accordingly.
Karakas has always done a poor job at beating Griselbrand, essentially any deck looking to put Griselbrand into play will have some other end-game threat be it Emrakul, or Sire of Insanity/Tidespout Tyrant or something else. Once your opponent has drawn 14 cards, put another Griselbrand into play plus the other threat, you essentially died to the first Griselbrand even if you bounced it. It's a rare occasion on which you just Karakas their demon and they don't draw cards, or they draw cards and can't utilise them - their whole deck is designed to cheat huge threats into play and with 14 extra cards, you're dead more often than not.
Regarding turbo depths, you can beat all of those situations by not playing like an ape. Obviously, you can lose any matchup where you draw poorly or you get nutdrawn, but on average you can beat all of those situations with an average hand from a standard Miracles list. I'm not saying the matchup is a bye, but simply discussing the high variance edge cases isn't useful.
I hope this was more insightful for you.
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Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FGCmtg
Karakas has always done a poor job at beating Griselbrand, essentially any deck looking to put Griselbrand into play will have some other end-game threat be it Emrakul, or Sire of Insanity/Tidespout Tyrant or something else. Once your opponent has drawn 14 cards, put another Griselbrand into play plus the other threat, you essentially died to the first Griselbrand even if you bounced it.
Now you're just exaggerating using bad math. 20 - 8 from reanimate on Griselbrand - 14 life to draw 14 cards, that's not even valid. Griselbrand coming from Sneak and Show versus coming from BR Reanimator/Griselbrand-storm (tin-fin) are all different contexts. They happen at different turns and each archetype will draw different set of 7 cards per activation. If you are going to lump them all together, and then jump to the conclusion that Karakas will not be helpful against any of the archetypes, that's your personal blanket opinion.
Removed the flamier parts of this post. Keep it cool, bruh. -zilla
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Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
Now you're just exaggerating using bad math. 20 - 8 from reanimate on Griselbrand - 14 life to draw 14 cards, that's not even valid. Griselbrand coming from Sneak and Show versus coming from BR Reanimator/Griselbrand-storm (tin-fin) are all different contexts. They happen at different turns and each archetype will draw different set of 7 cards per activation. If you are going to lump them all together, and then jump to the conclusion that Karakas will not be helpful against any of the archetypes, that's your personal blanket opinion.
How many Karakas do you recommend running twndomn?
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Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
Now you're just exaggerating using bad math. 20 - 8 from reanimate on Griselbrand - 14 life to draw 14 cards, that's not even valid. Griselbrand coming from Sneak and Show versus coming from BR Reanimator/Griselbrand-storm (tin-fin) are all different contexts. They happen at different turns and each archetype will draw different set of 7 cards per activation. If you are going to lump them all together, and then jump to the conclusion that Karakas will not be helpful against any of the archetypes, that's your personal blanket opinion, most likely a result from sub-optimal game-play. How would any of your assessments be considered an insight?
I'm not sure what you're hoping to achieve with your approach to this discussion. Randomly throwing around accusations of sub-optimal game play don't really get us anywhere, generally it is best to assume a reasonable degree of intelligence/ability in the other person during a conversation like this otherwise there is no point in replying at all from your perspective other than self-indulgence.
Nobody playing miracles should be losing to the 7/7 lifelink flier part of Griselbrand, the part that kills you is Yawgmoth's Bargain which happens to be attached to it. Obviously the 14 life thing I was discussing is only sometimes, 7 cards is often enough to kill us, 14 happens plenty, yes they die when they are on zero life *claps*.
Karakas is 'helpful' in that the 7/7 goes back into their hand of now approx. 10 cards which will put Sneak Attack/Omniscience/Tidespout Tyrant + Sire + Gris into play, and in the case of Tin Fins, reanimates Gris with haste again and kills you with Tendrils/Brutality/Emrakul. Repeat - you never die to a big lifelink flier, so karakas is of minimal utility compared to the cost it incurs by having it in your starting 60, and it is of lower impact than other sideboard cards you could play.
If nobody played Wasteland or Blood Moon, and everyone played Griselbrand decks, then yes, Karakas would be better enough than plains to include as it has text where plains doesn't. That isn't the world we live in, so I don't play the card.
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Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control
seems the trend lately is moving away from mainboard Monastery Mentor to Entreat the Angels. While i've generally favored Monastery Mentor in the main as a crutch, is 3 Jace and 1 Entreat the Angels really enough to put away game 1's? It seems like it would be extremely difficult to put a game away even if you seem to have control of it without some way to lock the game down since Top + Counterbalance doesn't exist anymore and no decks are playing things like Ensnaring Bridge to lock the board down.
The most ideal way to win game 1 I can think of is to brainstorm Entreat the Angels to the top and then set up Force of Will to be revealed to Counterbalance when you go to miracle the card. Is this the approach to closing out games? or are there more factors involved such as intentionally running the clock down low in game 1, or online players attempting to time out the miracles players?
In my experience without any sort of a lock down mechanism, it is not unreasonable for an opponent to reclaim the board even in the late stages of the game while you're still digging for a way to actually close out the game.
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Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
drocker23
seems the trend lately is moving away from mainboard Monastery Mentor to Entreat the Angels. While i've generally favored Monastery Mentor in the main as a crutch, is 3 Jace and 1 Entreat the Angels really enough to put away game 1's? It seems like it would be extremely difficult to put a game away even if you seem to have control of it without some way to lock the game down since Top + Counterbalance doesn't exist anymore and no decks are playing things like Ensnaring Bridge to lock the board down.
The most ideal way to win game 1 I can think of is to brainstorm Entreat the Angels to the top and then set up Force of Will to be revealed to Counterbalance when you go to miracle the card. Is this the approach to closing out games? or are there more factors involved such as intentionally running the clock down low in game 1, or online players attempting to time out the miracles players?
In my experience without any sort of a lock down mechanism, it is not unreasonable for an opponent to reclaim the board even in the late stages of the game while you're still digging for a way to actually close out the game.
Entreat and 3 JTMS is plenty to kill your opponent. A reasonable amount of the time you can win with a pair of Snapcasters protected by Counterbalance. Counterbalance is still enough to lock your opponent out of most spells in the late game, even without Top.
I'd say the primary win condition is JTMS, with Entreat being your 'Jace on 13' (credit to WhiteFaces for this analogy) when you don't have enough cards to ultimate your opponent and not deck out, or if there's some other time sensitive issue in the game. The deck does require you to play quickly - you can't sit considering every Ponder or Portent for longer than a couple of seconds - you need to be aware of what your plan is at all points, so that you know when you need to dig aggressively for Entreat as early as is safe to do so.
