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This is a very interesting case indeed. Setting up traps like this is a good way to trick opponent in giving us a chance. Even tho we are favored in the matchup, this kind of starting hand happens from time to time and there's nothing a non-blue deck can do about it.
.. the good thing about combo decks is that you have TIME to think about the situation a little bit longer then playing grindy matchups.:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatal
SCD: Steal Leaf Champion - i think this is an interesting card/beater - kinda unblockable force against grixis-army, elves, strix...
especially when protected by mother of runes/safekeeper
i think i will test one when its available - what do you think about it?
I mulliganed the first game and had a turn 2 knight as interaction, game 2 my starting hand was Karakas, Thoughtseize, Swords, Thalia, Knight and he drew gas while I never saw a Wasteland or second GSZ. I should have easily won the second game but random acts of magic happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatal
Second hand looked like godlike - t.size discard needle/answer to karakas, then karakas with thalia to clock his turns, then just close game with Knight which probably will be discarded.Quote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
Steel Leaf Champion I dislike it is next 3CMC beater which doesn't bring any value except conditonal unblockable - I would put Loxodon Smiter much before. It's much better to fight today meta - good vs Tempo (can't be dazed/fowed), can't be discarded and good protection against K.Commands and Lilianas.
Yeah.... game 2 was rough for me. His sequence of drawn cards while hellbent was: thoughtsieze, took Swords, map for stage, map for quarter, kill Karakas, crop rotation for steppe, I had mom+Ranger....Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatal
I was locked into a Knight list but I went 5-3 and missed top 8 so I am going to put more effort into a Tracker+Crop Rotation list.
I somehow really like the idea of flooding the board with lifelink kittens. Here is a list:Quote:
Originally Posted by pettdan
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Quirion Ranger
4 Mother of Runes
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Pride Sovereign
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Windswept heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
2 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Horizon Canopy
SB:
3 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Choke
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Containment Priest
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
Okay, maybe I went overboard with the kittens, two are probably enough. Exert is really good with untap effects though; Blessed Alliance fits in well. And going really wide beats Baleful Strix and True-Name Nemesis.
Bad news:
- The cat dies really fast. Even to Kolaghan's Command, which is painful.
- Boardclears a la Infest or Pyroclasm always get the big cat as well, since it shrinks back
- a lot of kittens are going to have to die
If you want to get even more cute (you are playing kittens, after all):
- Gideon or Zealous Persecution in Mainboard
- Brimaz, King of Oreskos
- Gavony Township
- Wilt-Leaf Liege
I don't think the deck needs any help vs Stoneblade since we are well equiped for it, but if you want to make your pile matchup better you can always play a creature they cannot get rid of instead of a tokens generator. You literally cannot lose once Rhonas hits the board vs a grindy non-white deck. But then again, we already have marit lage for that role so having both might be overkill...
Playing at GP Seattle this weekend with this list. Will post a report after Day 1.
Punishing Maverick
MB:
Creature: 21
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Mother of Runes
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Ramunap Excavator
Non-Creature Spells: 14
4 Swords of Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Punishing Fire
1 Sylvan Library
1 Swords of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Lands:25
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Wasteland
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 Plateau
1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
1 Plains
1 Forest
SB:15
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Containment Priest
2 Thoughtseize
1 Bayou
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Crop Rotation
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Reclamation Sage
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offtopic: is there a facebook group for maverick-players?
I don't know but there is an active Discord (linked in the Discord thread: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...iscord-Servers).Quote:
Originally Posted by Skizz
Edit:
@ EventHorizon: sweet to see a new poster, welcome! I think the cat has some potential, with a scryb ranger around you get 4 1/1 lifelinkers and a 6/6 cat after one turn and can make that 6 tokens and an 8/8 after two turns. Though it's hard to compete at the 3-drop slot for sure. Probably it's not going to be strong enough, but who knows. I think playing 3 copies is ok when testing it, but probably it's not going to turn out strong enough to have such a presence in the deck. Just imagine the situations when a KotR is gamewinning and when the cat is, for sure the KotR going to be instrumental in more situations so you probably don't want to stay at 3. But what do I know.. Good luck and report back! :)
That's a big deal! I wish she,?, would have made it past her first round delver opponent as that usually is a good matchup overall. Other than that this obviously means a spike in Maverick players for the next month or so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart
For the list, it doesn't run the combo, which I have been moving towards, and she runs the Gideon and the Sigarda in the board to help fight control decks... which happened to be everywhere.
Just love it all.
Miranda actually said Sigarda was bad but I'm not sure what all the matchups were
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She said on Reddit that they just didn't have a matchup to bring it in for. Whether that's a sign the card just doesn't deserve the slot right now is debatable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Schryver
https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/c...top_8/dx0blpb/Quote:
I didn't actually get to bring in Sigarda at all, but she's been incredible when I've played her in the past and I just generally absolutely love the card. She's also fantastic with Gaea's Cradle.
Yup here I amQuote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
Ready to pick up the deck again after some disappointing results with the punishing list. :)
Isn't 23 lands a bit to much without the combo?
Not too much. It just depends on how good you think Maze of Ith is vs. a spell you would run in lieu of.Quote:
Originally Posted by NegatorITA
Currently I think the Cradle/Maze is the better plan as the stage usually only wins when you have an active knight, which means you should be winning anyways...Quote:
Originally Posted by menloe
I like the Maze because it can be used offensively, attack untap search, or defensively, as intended. The Cradle allows for explosive played and huge tempo gains.
I'm actually kinda sick of hearing that if kotr is active you should be winning already. It might be a bit of an exageration: She gets chumped for days, gets killed by most removal and opponent doesn't usually have only nonbasics in their deck so you need something to make opponent scared of her. If you're staring at a TNN or a Strix, you want to do something else than just getting more mana (would you really play a 3cc mana dork, even if it generated 4 mana by itself?)Quote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
TLDR, most decks have ways to deal with her, she's "just a creature", even IF she is big (with that many DRS around she doesn't get much bigger than 5-6 lately). That's why you either need craddle + something to dump lots of mana into, the DD combo or a land that allows her to hit face.
I run Maze for those reasons too. I'm also on the DD combo though, which brings me to a total of 23 or 24 lands. (My entry into the format was a Punishing list with 26 lands so I'm not squeamish about a higher land count.)Quote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
Gaea's Cradle is one of my favorite cards. The art is incredible. The ability is incredible. The nostalgia for that time period is real. It was one of a few very successful Puca trades I made and I ended up bonusing about 30% to get it (it was time to get out anyway so NBD). Came from Germany smelling like cigarette smoke but I happily added it to my vault of expensive cardboard, which I swim around in from time to time like Scrooge McDuck from Duck Tales (for reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPX5mRSQ3pw). I regret not playing it for all of those reasons, but the combo is just too good not to run.
I'm on 23 mana producing lands atm so 1 more than you but I was thinking that we might not even need 2 forest anymore and going down to 22 mana producing lands might be enough.. The most efficient way to trim would be to shave 1 basic or 1 bayou. Do you run 3 black sources or 3 basics?Quote:
Originally Posted by menloe
I'm trying to make my land package a little more attractive by adding maybe maze, cavern or even cradle in addition to the DD combo.
Edit: Or I could also play the 8th fetch...
You know what card doesn't care about TNN or Strix that you can search for that still allows you to play Cradle? Rogue's Passage. That and it single handedly wins a stalled board against Death and Taxes. Nice Mother of Runes plus million creatures. Take 10.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpt-Qc
Yeah that's a great option to dump mana into. As I said, you need something else to make kotr scary cause by herself she's not that bad anymore.
I like three basics honestly. I don't always run three, but that configuration has tended to be my favorite. My current build has two basics and a Cavern.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpt-Qc
The idea of another Bayou appeals to me but the difference in price between that and my preferred basic forest (Unglued, natch) is $230 that I don't want to spend. So far one Bayou and one Scrubland has worked just fine for me.
It doesn't hurt to try, especially if you're mostly battling at your weekly local. I have a feeling you can get away with most but not all of what you're suggesting. The problem with DD, Maze, and Gaea's Cradle all at the same time is the chance of drawing too many colorless/non-mana producing sources. But being able to tutor them at will is obviously cool. I've thrown in Volrath's Stronghold and other misc lands using that rationale.
Megadeus has a point about Rogue's Passage. The ability to resolve problematic board states with one less card than the DD combo looks good to me.
As a quick thought: if DRS gets banned, Wasteland gets stronger, and then our basics look better. I'd plan on your manabase including 3+ basics after next week.
I'd love that if drs got banned but it's not happening anytime soon. It took them 4 years of miracles dominating the format before they took 1 piece out. This is way too fast.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart
4cc matchups are the worst! Always feel so extremly underpowered and get to keep nothing while they cantrip or 2 for 1 us:
Hymn and Kolaghan being especially annoying paired with that occasionally snappy...
Any suggestions, tips, or something? Trying voice and renegade rallier in the main, Gideon Ally and Lili last hope in sb
Is it worth to bring in zealous? Thoughtseize?
RIP my wallet after having to buy three more Heirarchs :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart
But dats cool, eff DRS.
Would we gain or lose from a DRS ban? I would argue that we are in a better place with dRS than we are without.
I can see knight being larger and wasteland being more effective but DRS helps with our splashes as well as giving us more game against graveyard strategies and burn.
With any luck a Deathrite ban would be accompanied by Griselbrand to make reanimator a bit less ludicrous.Quote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
There are plenty of non-Deathrite graveyard tools, though. Before Deathrite was printed I was a fan of Crop Rotation + Bojuka Bog in Maverick.
I tend to think better for the reasons you give. I find DRS to be underwhelming in Maverick as we have access to far better dorks. Mostly it feels like it's there to play that annoying DRS standoff mini game than to squelch the turn 2 fuckery from Reanimator et al.Quote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
We'd still have pretty good game against graveyard strategies. The majority of anti-graveyard cards are not DRS and we still get to run all the good ones. Not sure about burn, but I always felt like DRS didn't do enough in that matchup...
The main reason in my head is not one I stated.Quote:
Originally Posted by menloe
If DRS gets banned, what becomes the new “best” deck? I think UW Miracles is in prime position to take the top dog position and would continue to make our lives miserable. What else would challenge Miracles?
I agree with this in general. I think Maverick actually would benefit slightly from a ban. Knight, Wasteland, Excavator, Ooze, Rallier all get much better in this scenario. Thalia also gets somewhat better as well with fewer mana dorks running around in the metagame.Quote:
Originally Posted by menloe
I suspect most Maverick builds would then go to 4 Nobles, which would give most builds of the deck at least 16 humans main deck (4x Mother, Thalia, Noble, Knight) not including more fringe cards like Rallier, Tireless Tracker, Sylvan Safekeeper and sideboard fare like Canonist and Prelate. With that many humans I think it makes sense to try 1-2x Cavern of Souls, which would be nice as I've seen a fair bit of Counterbalance out of Miracles decks over the past few months at larger events.
4c Pile type decks would bite the dust. Grixis Delver would be no more. BUG Delver will be somewhat neutered as well. Elves will take a hit but probably be OK. Agreed that Miracles would benefit. There would probably be lots of U/R Delver as I'd imagine people would switch from Grixis and BUG, and Eldrazi could come back to fight Miracles and U/R. Maybe RUG Delver would become a thing again without DRS laughing at Nimble Mongoose?
I'm not looking forward to getting 3 more Judge Nobles if that's the case :(.Quote:
Originally Posted by menloe
Also all versions of the card are sold out on SCG, speculation?
I mentioned lorkac's Scrub's Land series on reddit before. I think they make a lot of really compelling points RE DRS (not necessarily pro-ban, but appears to incline that way)/Maverick's position in a post-ban world. Those posts are not your average reddit neck beardery (sorry redditors :tongue:) and are well worth a read.
The right number of dorks seems to be about six. BoP gives access to splash colors and NH helps serve the beats. BoP supports our black sideboard cards (and maindeck Decays if anyone is still on that) but is underwhelming in multiples. NH is bad for splashing but is great in multiples (stacking on exalted triggers is no joke). My guess is we want three NH and two BoP + GSZ for Dryad Arbor for the dorkage. Any thoughts?
I suggest 4 NH and 1 Bop - Bops are very poor in multiple and it increase risk of sweep.Quote:
Originally Posted by menloe
Few words after Shaman Ban (if it occur):
- We will be much more expose for -1/-1 effects
- Knight became again best 3 cmc thread which must be killed asap - since it will be proper size (in mid 5/5 is normal in late 10/10 or bigger is normal)
- Our not great machup will disappear - 4c with basics without DRS can't exist - BUG will back but it will be much worst - maybe they start to play other dork like Hierarch
- RUG will replace Grixis Delver (almost sure)
- Reanimator will be again much better (maybe even tier 1) specially Blue version.
- Dredge will be much common then today
My prediction to top tiers decks:
Tier 1:
- Miracles (rise)
- RUG Delver (big rise)
- Sneak Show (big rise)
- Reanimator (big rise)
- Stoneblade UW (big rise)
- Lands (rise)
- ANT (stable)
- Death & Taxes (stable)
Tier 2:
- Eldrazi Stompy (down)
- Infect (stable)
- Maverick (rise)
- Dragon Stompy (down)
- Dredge (rise)
- Turbo Depths (down)
- MUD (rise)
- Aggro Loam (rise)
- Aluren (down)
- Food Chain (down)
- Turbo Eldrazi (rise)
- Team America (with Goose and Dark Confidants) - (rise)
- Burn (stable)
- TES (stable)
- UWR Delver (stable)
- High Tide (rise)
Tier 3:
- Pox (stable)
- Death Ale Guy (down)
- Eva Green (stable)
- The Rock (stable)
- Imperial Painter (down)
- Jund (down)
- Nic Fit (stable)
- The Gate (down)
- Enchantress
- Merfolks
- Goblins
- Solider Stompy
- Thalia Stompy
- Shardless BUG
- Stoneblade Bant
- Team Italia
- Mono U OmniTell
- Big Red
- Belcher
and all other decks which are predators and can win even a whole tournament, but they are also so unique that I don't remember theirs names :-).
I firmly do not believe that DRS will be banned and do not want to see it get the ax either way.
I like that we are a deck that gets to play the most broken creature in the format, along with the rest of out degenerate squad, and he gives us a ton of game against a wide variety of decks.
What I feel needs to happen isn't with the banned list, but with the printing of new cards. GW needs another teeg/thalia type hatebear that punishes the cantrip/counter style of blue decks. Leovold needed to be GWB instead of GUB for its taxing effects and protection offset. TNN needed to be a white creature, as that is what protection historically has been.
I will say that they did a great job for DnT the past few releases, but GSZ and friends have largely been left out.
To be fair tracker, snake, and Rallier are all pretty good and a step in the right direction, but Id like more stuff that costs 2. A bear that fights when it comes into play? A green thalia? Now that'd be some powerful (and unlikely) helpQuote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
Omg. I would love a 2/3 for 2 that fought a creature on EtB, a 2/2 for GW that did relevant fair things. A GWW 3/3 with a unique skill set. Any form of card advantage attached to a green 2 drop.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rascalyote
Just more GSZ targets that are relevant in the early game. At our core we are a GSZ deck, we need power creep on our targets that differentiate us from them.
I like the cut of your jib. We're not likely to see the overt favoritism that DnT has been treated to lately, but more powerful green creatures are basically inevitable at this point. That may be the way forward, as you say.Quote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
I don’t think DRS is particularly broken in Maverick. I would call it a powerful but fair card in Maverick that is often bad at what a predominantly green shell needs it for in most match ups: ramping to a turn 3 KotR or turn 2 Thalia/Wasteland/say go.
That isn’t to say it’s not a worthwhile inclusion in Maverick. It checks all the boxes: it’s a GSZ-targetable (modal!) spell with power/toughness. However, I don’t think the card would be a four of auto-include in every Maverick list but for the need to counter opposing DRS. (Noble Hierarch in particular is better at supporting our plan A because its primary ability is not contingent on anything other than untapping.) We have to be able to counter their ramp in the early game and their “drain you for two” every turn in the late game or risk getting buried.
I would argue that Maverick suffers in a meta where the top two decks also get to run DRS. Opposing DRSes limit the number of times we can activate any of its abilities and give these decks a counter to all the facets of our plan A. It could even be worse for or us than it is for a deck like B/R Reanimator. At least they can still win on turn 1.
That’s what makes it a broken card: the fact that the top two decks are UBRg and get to (a) run four out of five colors’ best spells with virtually no draw back; (b) elbow in on our cool shit (ramp/dorks that do stuff); and, (c) wreck our game plan specifically. They also have more cards to deal with our DRS than we do theirs so it’s usually the UBRg player who’s reaping the full benefit of the card. Totally fine and fair in a green deck, but broken and unfair outside of a green deck.
Reading the report from the Maverick player that Top 8'd the GP, she got bailed out a ton of times by DRS. Either life gain against aggro, stopping Reanimator, or smoothing mana. I'm not sure what you can supplement by just shoving in Noble and Birds to replace DRS, but the deck is going to have to shift (Scooze) in order to fill that gap - or the sideboard changes significantly.