[Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

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Originally Posted by Fox

Don't need to.

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You should.

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Kinda the same way I didn't need to play your deck against ANT to know not to cut Dress Down and Nought while bringing in 1cmc cards you kept tapping yourself out of.

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Oh Fox, you messy bitch. :laugh:

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There's nothing wrong with learning by experience, but learning by wisdom is a better model.

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Oh, and what's it called when you never learn at all because:

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We're talking about a card that is smaller than MurkGoyf,

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Nope!

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slower than MurkGoyf,

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Wrong!

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and down keyword flying vs MurkGoyf.

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And up Ward. Weird how you're quick to remind us how good spot removal is and yet when when provided an answer to that problem you just plug your ears.

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At a baseline you have to either be getting on board faster than MurkGoyf or have other cards to answer MurkGoyf; otherwise you have failed the Goyf test.

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For Murktide to be fast, it can't be an 8/8. If it's an 8/8 then it's significantly slower than Bane. If it's not an 8/8 it's smaller than Bane and Dreadnought. If it's not a 7/7 (and most aren't. They're usually 6/6s, since 3 spells + 3 lands is the sweet spot to a t3 Murktide + protection) then Uro can also trade with it.

Play with the card and come back to me. Or don't. Just fuck off, honestly.

So 1 in 5 cards in your deck are not going to help you power out a Bane (the Dreadnought module). You're also pathologically going to be turning off Stifle with Ponder on 1, EoT Dress Down on 2, and then Iteration or Uro.

This makes you slower in the Goyf war, and slower is also smaller. So before you ever play a single game you know that you need to be able to kill MurkGoyf.

While adding 1 drops like DRC is progress, and having access to SB REBs is also progress...having slots for DRC and Uro and Nought and Bane really carves into your ability to fit Brazen - which feeds back into the whole problem of playing from behind vs MurkGoyf (particularly in game 1).

You also have the anti-combo of a deck that is pressured into cycling Dress Down (thanks to drawing extra copies or getting blackmailed by Iteration into spamming it). Can't stress this enough: Dress Down strips ward.

Just because a 12/12 is bigger than the Delver deck, it does not mean their life total is the one that needs to be defended. When you start pushing up the mana curve, without resistance to Wasteland, you're not the one on offense. If MurkGoyf was still actual Tarmogoyf, you would have covered this flaw just by having Uro...but the inability of Uro to interact by blocking and only effectively shrinking MurkGoyf to a 5/8 im a race is significant enough to throw out the old heuristic of Uro invalidates Goyf.

This is where a lot of decks mess up in legacy; they think too much about what their deck can do...but they forget that what they could do doesn't matter if a MurkGoyf is killing them before they can do their thing. This is why there is so much complaining about MurkGoyf - people are not willing to/don't like having to stop everything they're doing to run slots of choosing not to lose to Goyf.

When it comes to StifleNought vs Delver, your wincon is mostly exposing their terrible deck structure with Stifle and Wasteland, which makes the play pattern of sandbagging land drops for Iteration and having an ETB tapped Island go horribly wrong. Something you will want to avoid is transitioning from that advantage point into "you can get back in the game by making an 8/8 to my 7/7".

If you can't threaten to close the door, it really doesn't matter if your deck has big dudes vs an opponent who can ignore the battlefield race and divert all their resources into countering your next topdecks. This is a predictable endgame you don't have to gift your Delver opponent. Make them earn the endgame where they have the luxury of ignoring the battlefield race.

Hey Fox:

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Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit

Just fuck off, honestly.

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Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit

Hey Fox:

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Thank you

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Originally Posted by Tobitzki

lol, Fox going off the deep end. (building with Mine Collapse and Lavamancer for that imaginary future meta; durdling Saga into suicide-Dreadnought lines for that sweet sweet going-down-a-card-to-flip-my-DRC, kitchen-table style. Super.)

@FTW:
That last list looks pretty good to me. Couple of considerations:
- I would probably still run MTR over Bane in a deck that's a little bit light on removal to get rid of chump blockers. Maxtortion's RUG builds (with and w/o Dreadnoughts) seem to suggest that Uro & Murky in the same deck works just fine.
- Fluster over FoN in the main has always felt correct to me in Tempo Dreadnought
- 1st Scroll of Fate over 4th Dress Down is an idea (also a decent hedge vs. Chalice)
- 5x GY hate in the side seems excessive, especially for a deck that already hoses combo with 8-9 free counters and turn-2 12/12s. I would a) definitely turn Return to Nature into Ancient Grudge and b) consider swapping out Relic for some anti-blue-pile tech (Minsc & Boo; Life/Loam; or just Carpet or another blast)
- Keep the Ashiok, that card is awesome.

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Good points. Forcing Bane is not worth it.

Murktide + Uro together seems greedy and easy to attack with GY hate, so I'm starting on 2 Murktide like the Grixis decks. At least with Uro you can cheat it out vs grave hate. That avoids too much exposure to Leyline of the Void (in a deck with almost 0 enchantment kill) or other attempts to grind away at graveyard size (Relic, Hearse, Endurance).

Fluster seems better in other tempo shells. But a deck with Uro and EI and Ponder will tap out a lot. FoN main seems better with Fluster side. I see the Fluster in Maxtortion's list, but it feels awkward holding open Fluster with so many tap-out lines. The 5th Force helps G1 against Chalice @ 1 (without Brazen Boi, there are no answers in the main).

I notice DRC is not in most tempo Dreadnought lists. But it is such a strong card to have in URx tempo. It does so many things: powerful 1 drop attacker, graveyard filling (Uro & Murktide), card selection (filters around Dreadnought combo depending on when you want it). It doesn't even need Bauble due to suicidal artifacts and enchantments already in the deck.


//Creatures: 14
4 Dragon's Rage Channeler
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
2 Murktide Regent

//Spells: 23
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Expressive Iteration
1 Force of Negation

//Enchantments: 3
3 Dress Down

//Artifact: 1
1 Scroll of Fate

//Lands: 19
3 Wasteland
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
1 Island

//Sideboard: 15
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Veil of Summer
1 Maddening Hex
1 Pyroclasm
1 Powder Keg
1 Brazen Borrower
1 Collector Ouphe
1 Return to Nature
1 Ashiok, Dream Render
2 Surgical Extraction


I chose Return to Nature in part to have answers to enchantments. Grudge misses that. Maybe the cut is Relic then.

Blasts, Fluster, Veil and Maddening Hex should all be good against blue piles. I made space for creature removal vs Elves and D&T.

The best Bane deck is probably a UR tempo shell. Lavamancer seems bad - better in controlling UR Dreadstill than in aggressive UR tempo. Instead of turning sideways to remove a blocker, you could just play another big threat (4x Murktide Regent) and turn that sideways. UR tempo would rather have more standalone threats than support creatures. Murktide has no anti-synergy with Bane. You can run both. Anyway, that is all off topic.

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Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit

Hey Fox:

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You are slower at deploying your 7/7 than Delver is at deploying their 8/8. How did you magically start winning the race and force them into chumping?

Explain how playing 12/60 cards of Dreadnought module is leading to powering out 7/7s that are not sped up by said Dreadnought module. Explain how the opponent can't just pay for ward that late in the game. Explain how stripping your own ward with Dress Down is a combo.

I think so much of your thought process is comes from drawing false parallels to Kappa Cannoneer's ward 4 (which cones out as early as turn 2 or 3) and another false parallel between the experience of Uro midrange (a 4x Plow/4x Ending deck) vs Murktide.

We saw it again as you explained your matchup vs Goblins where you were talking about Stifle'ing their Lackey and then also (despite burning your enablers) being able to make big dudes and reverse the advantage bar. It didn't stop there either, your next stuff was about having no green count and adding Endurance.

All I see is someone at a chess board drawing up a strategy predicated upon moving their queen twice before passing priority.

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Originally Posted by Fox

You are slower at deploying your 7/7 than Delver is at deploying their 8/8. How did you magically start winning the race and force them into chumping?

Explain how playing 12/60 cards of Dreadnought module is leading to powering out 7/7s that are not sped up by said Dreadnought module. Explain how the opponent can't just pay for ward that late in the game. Explain how stripping your own ward with Dress Down is a combo.

I think so much of your thought process is comes from drawing false parallels to Kappa Cannoneer's ward 4 (which cones out as early as turn 2 or 3) and another false parallel between the experience of Uro midrange (a 4x Plow/4x Ending deck) vs Murktide.

We saw it again as you explained your matchup vs Goblins where you were talking about Stifle'ing their Lackey and then also (despite burning your enablers) being able to make big dudes and reverse the advantage bar. It didn't stop there either, your next stuff was about having no green count and adding Endurance.

All I see is someone at a chess board drawing up a strategy predicated upon moving their queen twice before passing priority.

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How about instead of repeating the same canards you:

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Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit

Just fuck off, honestly.

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Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit

How about instead of repeating the same canards you:

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So you want to play behind MurkGoyf with Bane pretending you've already solved the problem...

Then you want to cut Brazen to play further behind MurkGoyf....

And now against a Daze and Bolt deck your brilliant idea is to play a 4 mana PW that has massive vulnerability to Bolt...

You need to have a better strategy than throwing away the one matchup that matters more than any other [Delver]. This is a recurring problem in your thought process.

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Originally Posted by Fox

So you want to play behind MurkGoyf with Bane pretending you've already solved the problem...

Then you want to cut Brazen to play further behind MurkGoyf....

And now against a Daze and Bolt deck your brilliant idea is to play a 4 mana PW that has massive vulnerability to Bolt...

You need to have a better strategy than throwing away the one matchup that matters more than any other [Delver]. This is a recurring problem in your thought process.

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I have another brilliant idea for you, you'll never guess:

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Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit

Just fuck off, honestly.

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Anyways played magic tonight, thoughts:
Minsc and Boo are a house. I get it now. Very glad I came prepared https://twitter.com/4dogs1suit/statu...49505846497298
Bane performed admirably. It was too big for burn to deal with (not that they could pay the 4) and Delver got stuck chumping it because they couldn't make the 8/8 murktide in time. By then I had plenty of time to find permission.
You can't play six shocks. I need to find a way to get my hands on at least 1 affordable vulc and trop. 1 of each goes a long way with fetches.
There's a fun subgame to be had when show and tell is cast and your hand is all dress down and stifles.
All in all fun night. Will be making adjustments moving forward but not sure what yet.

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Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit

Anyways played magic tonight, thoughts:
Minsc and Boo are a house. I get it now. Very glad I came prepared https://twitter.com/4dogs1suit/statu...49505846497298
Bane performed admirably. It was too big for burn to deal with (not that they could pay the 4) and Delver got stuck chumping it because they couldn't make the 8/8 murktide in time. By then I had plenty of time to find permission.
You can't play six shocks. I need to find a way to get my hands on at least 1 affordable vulc and trop. 1 of each goes a long way with fetches.
There's a fun subgame to be had when show and tell is cast and your hand is all dress down and stifles.
All in all fun night. Will be making adjustments moving forward but not sure what yet.

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Congrats. How did you do overall?

What did you end up playing? How was the mana?

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Originally Posted by FTW

Congrats. How did you do overall?

What did you end up playing? How was the mana?

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2-2. A handful of punts and some well-punished decisions really got me.
Beat: Burn, Delver
Lost: Show and Tell, Reanimator

Mana, quantitatively felt ok, but I was running too many shocks and not enough basics because I wanted to try a Temur list, with 4 bolts and 2 Minsc n Boos.
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Steam vents
3 Breeding Pool
2 Wasteland
1 Mystic Sanctuary
1 Snow Forest
1 Island

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Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit

2-2. A handful of punts and some well-punished decisions really got me.
Beat: Burn, Delver
Lost: Show and Tell, Reanimator

Mana, quantitatively felt ok, but I was running too many shocks and not enough basics because I wanted to try a Temur list, with 4 bolts and 2 Minsc n Boos.
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Wasteland
1 Mystic Sanctuary
1 Snow Forest
1 Island

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Did you have 3 Tropical 3 Volcanic like above, or was it 6 shocks? Or some mix of shocks and basics?

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Originally Posted by FTW

Did you have 3 Tropical 3 Volcanic like above, or was it 6 shocks? Or some mix of shocks and basics?

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Sorry, I copied the list but I wrote it down with the duals and not the shocks I shuffled up

Nice job beating Burn and Delver with six shocklands! That must feel good.

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Originally Posted by BirdsOfParadise

Nice job beating Burn and Delver with six shocklands! That must feel good.

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It did!
But I can't rely on that luck going forward. It basically shut down a lot of my game plan v burn because it meant being two turns behind on the draw, but thankfully was on the play g1 and 3.

Ok got my hands on some cards I don't normally have access to, see if you can spot them as I went 3-1

3 uro, Titan of nature's wrath
4 phyrexian Dreadnought
2 brazen borrower
3 Sailors' Bane
2 minsc & boo, Timeless Heroes
4 dress down

4 stifle
4 ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 force of will
2 daze
1 stubborn denial
4 lightning bolt

1 island
1 forest
1 mystic sanctuary
2 polluted Delta
2 flooded strand
3 volcanic island
3 tropical island
4 Misty rainforest
2 wasteland

//Sideboard
2 force of negation
2 drop of honey
3 veil of summer
3 run afoul
1 flusterstorm
4 leyline of the void

R1 2-0 Hammer. My 12/12s are bigger and you can kill the paladin before it picks anything up
R2 1-2 murktide g1 I drew nothing if value, won game two and lost a close g3
R3 2-0 Alluren got a little lucky to draw a dress down two unlock a pair of Dreadnoughts two games. Veil the removal and kill them dead.
R4 lost g1 to geisslevrand. Boarded in a lot of counters g2/3 and easily won g2 and then nearly lost g3 when I took a risky line that almost got me double dazed (he was at 10, I had a bane, dress down, two forces one negation one will, arun afoul and two other blue cards a veil in hand with 3 mana up. He cast show and tell and instead of fighting over it I put bane in play. He drops emmy. Dress down hits a brainstorm I know about (there's a bolt under that) I cast run afoul into a daze, I force, he dazed again, I forced again, he has his own force. We go to my turn. Looks like I'm about to be Uber punished. I draw and cast my brainstorm... Find another run afoul and pair of forces. I cast the veil, the afoul and put him to 3 and he scoops.)
Fun night. Run afoul stole about 2 games on the night. Drop of honey clipped an emrakul.

Nice result. Looks like the better mana helped.

Run Afoul is great, right? Answers all the other big nasty creatures in Legacy.

Did Minsc & Boo win any games? How did it perform? It seems to drive up the curve too high when you already have big finishers (Bane, Uro, Dreadnought). Would it be better as Expressive Iteration, Force of Negation, or Pyroblast?

How did you board against Delver in Round 2?

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Originally Posted by FTW

Nice result. Looks like the better mana helped.

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It did. I got to be more aggressive with dual fetching. But also I didn't play the MUs where the damage mattered so much.

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Run Afoul is great, right? Answers all the other big nasty creatures in Legacy.

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Very happy with it.

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Did Minsc & Boo win any games? How did it perform? It seems to drive up the curve too high when you already have big finishers (Bane, Uro, Dreadnought). Would it be better as Expressive Iteration, Force of Negation, or Pyroblast?

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Saw it exactly once, I cast it into a counter spell. I don't remember if this was intentional on my part but I think this was incidental. Last week when I played the pair I did enjoy them. Maybe I want an EI instead, but I have Force already and decided the side is a better place for them. Dunno about Pyroblast, I guess I just have other cards to deal with what it deals with?

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How did you board against Delver in Round 2?

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I brought in 2 veils and the 3 Run Afouls. I think I took out some combo of Force, 1 Dress Down and I forget what. The game I managed to win I cast ponder and saw all three.

4 Torpor Orbs in the sideboard seem an autoinclude with how prevalent initiative and doomsday is, especially in lists with Uro/Kroxa.

Initative Stompy Urzas Saga and Doomsday lists are everywhere, and graveyard hate/leyline/endurance has become the most popular way to answer Delver lists.


I feel like this deck is poised to do amazing right now.

Anyone have an updated list, ideally one that also plays either 4 Delvers (dodges gravehate) or some number of Minsc and Boo (Stiflenought dodges Bolt so prismatic ending/stp lists are our bane and Minsc eats those cards for breakfast and gets sided out vs bolt lists).

Edit: That terminus list in the op looks solid vs initiative stompy and saga tokens. Is anyone playing terminus in the board?

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Originally Posted by Captain Hammer

4 Torpor Orbs in the sideboard seem an autoinclude with how prevalent initiative and doomsday is, especially in lists with Uro/Kroxa.

Initative Stompy Urzas Saga and Doomsday lists are everywhere, and graveyard hate/leyline/endurance has become the most popular way to answer Delver lists.


I feel like this deck is poised to do amazing right now.

Anyone have an updated list, ideally one that also plays either 4 Delvers (dodges gravehate) or some number of Minsc and Boo (Stiflenought dodges Bolt so prismatic ending/stp lists are our bane and Minsc eats those cards for breakfast and gets sided out vs bolt lists).

Edit: That terminus list in the op looks solid vs initiative stompy and saga tokens. Is anyone playing terminus in the board?

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Here's 13th in a challenge and a 5-0 the next week. No Delvers, no green.

//Artifact
1 Scroll of Fate
//Creature (11)
3 Murktide Regent
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Thing in the Ice
2 Brazen Borrower
//Enchantment (4)
4 Dress Down
//Instant (19)
4 Stifle
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Stubborn Denial
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Slip Out the Back
1 Force of Negation
//Sorcery (6)
2 Expressive Iteration
4 Ponder
//Land (19)
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
4 Island
4 Polluted Delta
60 Cards

//Sideboard (15)
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast
1 Torpor Orb
2 Brotherhood's End
2 Price of Progress
1 Maddening Hex
3 Pyroblast
2 Narset, Parter of Veils


This list, same player the only one who apparently can put up numbers with Dreadnought lately, has Kroxa.

//Creature (9)
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger
1 Brazen Borrower
2 Murktide Regent
//Enchantment (4)
4 Dress Down
//Instant (22)
4 Stifle
1 Snuff Out
1 Force of Negation
4 Brainstorm
2 Slip Out the Back
1 Unholy Heat
1 Stubborn Denial
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
//Sorcery (6)
4 Ponder
2 Expressive Iteration
//Land (19)
4 Wasteland
4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
60 Cards

//Sideboard (15)
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Plague Engineer
1 Hydroblast
2 Brotherhood's End
1 Maddening Hex
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Torpor Orb
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
2 Narset, Parter of Veils


Looks like the play is to drop the Uro and Minsc And Boo (Mi Booro, their couples name) and just play murktide yourself.

Murktide is good tempo, while Uro and Minsc are slow and mana-hungry. It looks like their plan is to go under UR Delver, rather than play slower stuff. Wasn't your green build struggling vs Delver? The above one should destroy it. It should have good matchups vs Delver, Initiative, Doomsday, random combo.

1 Torpor Orb SB looks correct. That card is still terrible to draw in multiples, and you already have 4x Dress Down main. Instead of adding more Torpors, they switched Meltdown to Brotherhood's End (kills x/3s). Smart use of SB space.

https://i.imgur.com/OygNJeD_d.webp?m...fidelity=grand

Mycosynth Gardens looks very promising as yet another way to combo with Dreadnought, and an uncounterable one at that. It also makes Urza’s Saga more worthwhile…

Turn 3 tap Urza’s Saga in response to its trigger for a mana, grab Dreadnought, and use that mana to turn Mycosynth Gardens into a Dreadnought.

More importantly, you can activate Gardens to copy Dreadnought in response to your opponent targeting your first Dreadnought with a removal spell.

With 4 Saga, the list can essentially run 8 Dreadnoughts and up to 12 combo pieces (Stifle, Dress Down, Mycosynth Gardens) that all have quite a bit of utility even without the combo.

The issue you're going to run into is the same one you ran into earlier this thread: you can't really run quad laser Dress Down and also make constructs. You end up having constructs in play and Dress Downs in hand that you are no longer allowed to cast.

What this does do however is let you go from 2 mana [EoT Dress Down] -> untap, play 3rd land -> Dreadnought -> if opponent ever goes after Nought, copy in response.

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Originally Posted by Clark Kant

https://i.imgur.com/OygNJeD_d.webp?m...fidelity=grand

Mycosynth Gardens looks very promising as yet another way to combo with Dreadnought, and an uncounterable one at that. It also makes Urza’s Saga more worthwhile…

Turn 3 tap Urza’s Saga in response to its trigger for a mana, grab Dreadnought, and use that mana to turn Mycosynth Gardens into a Dreadnought.

More importantly, you can activate Gardens to copy Dreadnought in response to your opponent targeting your first Dreadnought with a removal spell.

With 4 Saga, the list can essentially run 8 Dreadnoughts and up to 12 combo pieces (Stifle, Dress Down, Mycosynth Gardens) that all have quite a bit of utility even without the combo.

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I saw this too, and because of the natural synergy with Saga my thought was to run something like a UG-post hybrid, leveraging Crop Rotation and/or Torpor Orb at the expense of Dress Down and some of the Blue/Red threats I was on. The issue I kept coming back to was "I just don't want to fold to wasteland" and I'm waiting for the full set before I try and figure it out.

It looks strong. I bought it up in the Dreadstill thread too. But too many colorless lands is bad. You probably want
2-3 Urza's Saga
1-2 Mycosynth Gardens

The combo is great when it works. But if you go 4 Saga 4 Gardens to do the Turn 3 play, it means having 2 colorless lands early, which is bad for literally everything else other than making the 12/12.

There's no reason to hurt your mana when you already have enough Dreadnought enablers. It should be better to only use the Gardens combo only occasionally, rather than risk manascrew.

I don't write here very often. But I play a lot of mtgo. Decided to brew a bit with Dreadnought and built the following list. I have only played 2 leagues with it this far. But 5-0ed both of them. Only changed 2 cards in between.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...5724/image.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...4520/image.png

Maindeck:
4 Urza's Saga
1 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Island

4 Lotus Petal

3 Greater Good
4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
2 Endurance
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
1 Soul-Guide Lantern
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Dress Down
2 Stifle

Sideboard:
1 Hydroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Prismatic Ending
2 Force of Vigor
4 Force of Negation

If I don't reply here feel free to reach me on Discord instead. I'm quite active in the big UWx Control server (old miracles server).

I see that some of you mentioned Torpor Orb here, I might try one next time. Seems quite alright against the white initiative stompy deck, although I have already beaten it without any.

That's promising, very cool. How many times did you live the draw 12 or draw 6 dreams, or was it not a factor?

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Originally Posted by Scott

That's promising, very cool. How many times did you live the draw 12 or draw 6 dreams, or was it not a factor?

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At happens very often, at least once each match this far. And it's great fun every time. As soon as you do it once it usually chains into another dreadnought if you want as well. So in the end you can usually pass the turn with like 3x force 3x blue, and another dreadnought for next turn.

I have stolen some quick wins of dress down (or stifle) into dreadnought (or double) but in at least half the wins I could draw my entire deck if I wanted to.

What is the typical play pattern where you play Greater Good?

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Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit

What is the typical play pattern where you play Greater Good?

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Well preferably if you can play it + dreadnought the same turn, that's basically game over. But even just playing it the turn before a Urza's Saga goes off is quite good, there aren't all that much removal for a green 4cmc enchantment. Beyond that it really just depends on the match up and what your hand allows.

This hand was a weak 6 card keep that won for example (turn 1 saga, turn 2 GG):
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...7888/image.png

Interesting strategy. I guess Greater Good is another way to tackle the fundamental card disadvantage problem and insulate Dreadnought against Swords/Ending blowouts. It works well in PreModern. I like that it works with the fair side of Uro too -> 1UG: Draw 7, discard 3, gain 3 life, +1 land. Then you also have plenty of escape fuel.

Greater Good seems clunky sometimes, but I guess you have Endurance to pitch it, Brainstorm to bury it, Uro to ramp to 4, and the SB to board it out for cheap interaction. Postboard it looks like a good payoff for Carpet mana letting you convert big mana into big cards.

UG lacks removal. Splashing white for Swords makes sense. Mana gets worse in 3 colors, but then Lotus Petal (and Saga-> Petal) helps avoid some manascrew, so you've already covered a weakness of splashing white.

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Originally Posted by FTW

Interesting strategy. I guess Greater Good is another way to tackle the fundamental card disadvantage problem and insulate Dreadnought against Swords/Ending blowouts. It works well in PreModern.

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Yeah I have found the matchups against removal quite alright, Uro also lines up quite well against that. The fear of those Swords/Ending blowouts is also exactly the reason I didn't want 4 Stifle, they just invite for too many of those StifleNought openings that gets you blown out. Although it's still a powerful card. I hadn't seen the PreModern deck lists before, but they look quite similar! Great minds think alike. The first list I found of google now even had Hickory Woodlot which I have considered testing.

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Originally Posted by FTW

I like that it works with the fair side of Uro too -> 1UG: Draw 7, discard 3, gain 3 life, +1 land. Then you also have plenty of escape fuel.

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Yeah it's super sweet. I have even had a few times where I attack and then sac Uro in response to the attack trigger (like if I know it'll just get blocked by a Baleful Strix).

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Originally Posted by FTW

Greater Good seems clunky sometimes, but I guess you have Endurance to pitch it, Brainstorm to bury it, Uro to ramp to 4, and the SB to board it out for cheap interaction. Postboard it looks like a good payoff for Carpet mana letting you convert big mana into big cards.

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I have no idea how often it's correct to board it out. But probably a few matchups. That will just need more testing. Endurance has been nice both as a anti delver card, and to reset your own library mid combo. The fairly low green count is not great for consistently pitch casting it early against things like reanimator, but it has happened.

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Originally Posted by FTW

UG lacks removal. Splashing white for Swords makes sense. Mana gets worse in 3 colors, but then Lotus Petal (and Saga-> Petal) helps avoid some manascrew, so you've already covered a weakness of splashing white.

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Swords is great. I also considered testing RUG (Bolt/Heat, Minsc, Fury, Pyroblast, Meltdown) but haven't had the time. I just went with the easiest most straight forward build for now.

I'm not saying the deck is broken or anything, but it's been good enough to have a lot of fun with at least. And drawing 12 cards is very fun.

I think the mana base can probably be improved a bit as well. I'll test 1 or 2 Boseiju next time as an additional out against Chalice of the Void.

Good point. Do you have a high enough green count to use Endurance & Force of Vigor on turn 0? If not, should you have other SB cards instead? (e.g. Return to Nature)

For example against Red Stompy you're probably cutting Stifle for Force of Vigor (and a nongreen card for Prismatic Ending), and it still may not have a green card to kill that turn 1 Chalice/Moon. Whereas Prismatic Ending & Return to Nature (or even Serenity) might be more consistent answers.

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Originally Posted by It Is Unfair

I think the mana base can probably be improved a bit as well. I'll test 1 or 2 Boseiju next time as an additional out against Chalice of the Void.

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Boseiju's strong, but you also need a minimum number of blue sources, so finding space might be tricky. Cutting basic Forest could mean serious problems making Uro against Wasteland decks.

On the plus side, you do seem less weak to Chalice @ 1 than most Stiflenoughts. You've cut down on Stifles, and Saga + Dress Down makes the 12/12 without casting a 1 cmc spell. Or you can pivot into the other threats.

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Originally Posted by FTW

Good point. Do you have a high enough green count to use Endurance & Force of Vigor on turn 0? If not, should you have other SB cards instead? (e.g. Return to Nature)

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Yeah the green count isn't high enough for that reliably. That's why I added 2 surgical sideboard instead of Endurance #3 & #4.

Force of Vigor was mostly added as another 0 mana spell to cast after you draw 12+ or 24+ cards in one turn and want to interact / catch up on board quickly. In which case the green count is plenty good. But that might still be too narrow.

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Originally Posted by FTW

For example against Red Stompy you're probably cutting Stifle for Force of Vigor (and a nongreen card for Prismatic Ending), and it still may not have a green card to kill that turn 1 Chalice/Moon. Whereas Prismatic Ending & Return to Nature (or even Serenity) might be more consistent answers.

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Yeah. Blood Moon is certainly very good against the deck, especially due to killing saga right away.

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Originally Posted by FTW

Boseiju's strong, but you also need a minimum number of blue sources, so finding space might be tricky. Cutting basic Forest could mean serious problems making Uro against Wasteland decks.

On the plus side, you do seem less weak to Chalice @ 1 than most Stiflenoughts. You've cut down on Stifles, and Saga + Dress Down makes the 12/12 without casting a 1 cmc spell. Or you can pivot into the other threats.

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Yeah I'm not sure exactly how to tweak it yet. Will just have to test around a bit. The basic forest hasn't been great this far (not bad either though, but most of the time it could have just been any other land), but if I start adding green disenchant effects like Boseiju or Return to Nature then it would get better. 2nd hydroblast might also be good, the card has over performed quite a bit.

Then there are other great cards that I couldn't fit but that might be playable of course, flusterstorm, sylvan library, life from the loam. I don't know.

My meta has lots of reanimator, Sneak n show style and even Applejack type decks. Facing turn 1 fatties makes me sad. Is it a game 1 loss unless you have a StP or force for the entomb or other early enabler? I'd love to hear about how you would side and the game plan.

Here's a match of Nassif playing against me from stream earlier today. If anyone wants to see the Greater Good deck in action.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1712903566?t=5h58m45s

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Originally Posted by It Is Unfair

Here's a match of Nassif playing against me from stream earlier today. If anyone wants to see the Greater Good deck in action.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1712903566?t=5h58m45s

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I liked how the list worked so well together, with cards filling several different roles. Nice job.

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Originally Posted by It Is Unfair

I don't write here very often. But I play a lot of mtgo. Decided to brew a bit with Dreadnought and built the following list. I have only played 2 leagues with it this far. But 5-0ed both of them. Only changed 2 cards in between.

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It is useless in multiples but Greater Good is such an amazing and fun piece of tech. I absolutely love it and it has awesome synegy with Uro. Allowing you to cash in Dreadnoughts for 9 net cards in response to removal is such a huge swing in your favor that I am going to make a 1 of Greater Good a staple in everyone of my green Dreadnought lists going forth.

Hello, I'm new to the forum and this is my first post so I take this opportunity to say hello to everyone.

This is my current list,

4 Phyrexian dreadnoght
3 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
2 Lazav, the Multifarious

Protection/removals
4 Force of will
4 daze
3 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay

research
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
1 Sylvan Library

Combo
4 stifle
4 dress down

Utility
2 life from the loam

Lands
1 Boseiju, Who Endures
4 wasteland
3 tropical island
3 undergrond sea
1 island
6 fetchland

LFTL interacts great with the deck allows you to recycle wasteland and boseiju, with lazav on the ground allows you to quickly reach uro or dreadnoght, provides cards for uro escape, is synergistic with brainstorm, and provides extra lands to put into play with uro's ability .
Thoughtseize it's the only card in the current meta (ur delver + initiative = 30+% meta) that could make room.
But in a more varied metagame its usefulness is indisputable

I am awaiting your impressions, although I have been playing magic since 1994 I do it only as a hobby and with a small circle of friends I therefore do not have the experience of competitive players.
Thank you all