[Deck] Ichorid

I'm really at a loss here guys, I explained why the idea was awful (it wasnt even close to viable), and people are still talking about Lhurgoyfs here...I guess Ill just have to start ignoring this thread (like I have to ignore most...) if its going to be derailed with terrible ideas like this, the only person here whos posting I ever learn anything from is BaneoftheLiving anyways, and from what Ive seen from him and know myself, I know my version of the deck is pretty optimal already. So as long as this thread keeps getting derailed by non-sense Im gunna ignore it so I dont get my 3rd warning from flaming someone in here, this is getting rediculous.

Also, if the mods somehow want to call this post inflammatory and warn me for it that is fine by me, frankly Im fed up and have multiple computers anyway...

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

Whats wrong with the Lhurgoyfs?

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Originally Posted by Bovinious

Lhurgoyf is awful because its basically the same as GGT which we already run, and its not really worth it at all to run 2 Lhurgoyf, 1 Sutured Ghoul, and 1 Dragon Breath over the FKZ kill.

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I was joking when I suggested Lhurgoyf. It's a bad card. It dies to the hate that this deck would face. If you had to run a reanimation target that wasn't Flame Kin Zealot, it would be something like Simic Sky Swallower, an Akroma, or Sundering Titan.

I can't see any reason to run any thing other then Zealot, winning now is better then wining three turns later.

Can someone give be a definition of the EOT-Discard-Mode?

Somehow I'm not satisfied with the 2 possibilities.

Do you:

- draw to 8 card, then discarding every dredger turn by turn, topdecking into Land-Breakthrough when the Odds are good?

or do you:

simply dredge 6 cards every turn?

Against thresh for examble I'm not very satisfied with either the first or the second possibility, because it's slow and I once got raced by tarmogoyf because I had every cardtype in the GY.
I'm just too stupid to play Ichorid, so I need help!

Simply dredging 6 a turn CRUSHES thresh. Because your graveyard is essentially your hand (and in many cases better) it's almost like you're drawing five extra cards a turn, which is just absolutely retarded, and they can't do a damn thing about it because dredge can't be countered.

"Dredge, discard, go" puts a lot of pressure on the Thresh player because you've removed the "control" part of "aggro-control" and now they have to try to out-goldfish you, which is not something they're very well set up to do.

Eventually, though, you do want to switch gears. Ideally you want to see a couple Cabal Therapies in the yard, and try to catch them at a point where they can't play Counterspell. Then you Therapy away their control elements all in one turn and play your bombs (Breakthrough, Dread Return on Cephalid Sage) and just win the game from there.

It seems counterintuitive, but often this style of play can be faster than running out the first turn LED or Imp or what-have-you, because if your discard outlets get countered, either by Force or by Daze, you're going to be down 1-2 cards in hand, and it's going to take you at least another couple of turns to draw back up to where you can discard.

So Ive been preparing for the EPIC DLD in Oct, playing several games against Ceph Breakfast, Landstill, and Survival.

Survival has been shored up thanks to my hidden shit and better sb options. Landstill is nearly a round bye, Ceph is where it gets tricky.

I find myself with roughly a 50/50 game against them since they can combo as quickly as I and also have FoW. There are some games where you can Therapy them for the correct card (almost always Illusionist) but other times they have one of the tutors in hand and assemble combo on you. Sometimes they open with turn one Nomad, turn two Illusionist. Is anyone else playing this matchup rigorously?

Leyline of the Void makes the matchup insanely easy. They simply cant find the bounce and also combo before you smother them. I actually feel comfortable losing game one and stealing the next two for sure. Though it does make me wonder whether its worth exploring the option of maindecked Leylines again. I suppose this is a meta call but it helps with all the janky shit like goblins, affinity and survival as well. Thoughts?

I've also been wondering about squeezing Leyline of the Void in maindeck. It's such a bomb against so many decks, and it would make sideboarding for matches where it isn't needed very easy.

However, I think whatever you would have to cut would slow down the deck a lot. The problem is, Leyline is really only effective when 4 are run, to increase the chances of it being in your opening hand. I wouldn't want to cut any Ichorids, because they would be amazing with your Bridges from Below impossible to remove. I also wouldn't want to cut any discard outlets - Putrid Imp, LED, or Breakthrough. Cutting Deep Analysis would severly weaken the Dredge engine, and would also invalidate running LED to power it. You could eliminate the Dread Return package (which is ~5 cards) and run 4 Leyline + 1 something. In matches when you don't need Leylines (which is mostly fast combo like Belcher), you could side in the Dread Return package + Platinum Angel/disruption of your choice.

Edit: After some playtesting, Leyline of the Void proves to be a house against Cephalid Breakfast. That plus a fast clock usually means good game. Board out 1 Dread Return, 1 Golgari Thug, 1 DA, and 1 of any of the following: Ichorid, Golgari Thug, Breakthough.

Yesterday I played a tournament and got problems against Solidarity, Threshold and Uw Landstill (Moat and in the second game Crypt + Academy Ruins). I went 3-4-0 beating Belcher, Pikulla and Threshold and lost to Solidarity, Landstill, Threshold and 10-Land-Stompy (he was much faster and got a Turn 3 kill :( ). I think one problem was, that I never mulliganed, I should do it next time.

This was the list I played:
// Lands
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
4 [AN] City of Brass

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [RAV] Golgari Thug
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
2 [TO] Cephalid Sage
4 [TO] Putrid Imp

// Spells
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [TSP] Dread Return
3 [TO] Deep Analysis
4 [TO] Breakthrough

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 2 [JU] Ray of Revelation
SB: 3 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 [IN] Wax/Wane

I played just 3 Analysis, but I think it was wrong. Actually I'm thinking about Leyline main, it does really help I think.

Edit:
I think I will try this version now:
// Lands
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
4 [AN] City of Brass

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
1 [TO] Cephalid Sage
3 [TO] Putrid Imp

// Spells
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [TSP] Dread Return
2 [TO] Deep Analysis
4 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [GP] Leyline of the Void

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 2 [JU] Ray of Revelation
SB: 3 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 [IN] Wax/Wane

(First, I'm just wondering: is this a European metagame?)

To which variants of Thresh did you beat/lose? I find that my matchup with UGr is pretty solid, and doesn't go down that much post board. Solidarity seems like it wouldn't be a bad matchup; it would probably favor Ichorid because of a speed advantage, lack of spells, and Cabal Therapy. However, you are kinda doing their job for them with the whole milling thing. Moat in game 1 against Landstill is kinda random; I wouldn't worry too much about that.

May I suggest Chalice of the Void over Pithing Needle in the sideboard? It preempts Tormod's Crypt and Engineered Explosives at 0.

It sounds like your inexperience with the deck lead to your loses. Its easy to see the busted plays with Ichorid but it isnt always clear what to do with the imperfections the deck will hand you. Mulligans to fast hands are key to beating decks with powerfull late games.

What are the thoughts on an Ichorid build that runs a slightly higher land count to allow a large chance at getting 2 land and Tolarian Winds?

I've been finding in just screwing around with Goldfishing that Tolarian Winds resolved with a Grave-Troll in hand is game on that exact turn a little over 50% of the time with 5 cards in hand (On the play or on the draw with a play turn one), a little less than 50% with 4 cards in hand (On the play and you did something turn one), and about 90% of the time with 6 cards in hand (On the draw.) This gives Tolarian Winds a feel almost similar to Flash.

In any case, the results are generally devastating. Winds acts as both the discard outlet for your dredgers and the draw tool to make them go nuts.

The only way possible to make that any good is to add petals. T.Winds is a great card don't get me wrong but by the time you play it you will have the same amount of dredging as a breakthrough. It could be good if you got it off turn one. If you are going that route use lotus petals, that would increase speed . I subbed my brass' with petals and they work out wonderfully in most cases.

Winds would go hand in hand with Chrome Mox, I think.

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Originally Posted by Illissius

Winds would go hand in hand with Chrome Mox, I think.

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I tried that in old builds but that isn't that good. I mean if you start with 7 cards, you play land(6), play Chrome Mox(5) Imprint(4) and play Tolarian Wind(3) meaning discarding and drawing only 3. Breakthrough is better in that place, because it makes sure you get Threshold and probably giving you a dredger next turn.

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Originally Posted by Bane of the Living

It sounds like your inexperience with the deck lead to your loses. Its easy to see the busted plays with Ichorid but it isnt always clear what to do with the imperfections the deck will hand you. Mulligans to fast hands are key to beating decks with powerfull late games.

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It was the second tournament with that deck. In my first one I could have made Top8 (with 5-2-0 and and old version with Wraith and Underground Seas), but I let the last guy I played against win because he had much better chances to get a good card (finally he was at the 4th place), so I went 4-3-0 and got the 19th place out of 69. I played the deck for about 3 mounth since this thread was started.

Okay, I think I've to learn how to mulligan with this deck ;).

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(First, I'm just wondering: is this a European metagame?)

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About 70-75% are controldecks (including aggro-control [Thresh, Baseruption and so on]), 15-20% combo and the rest is aggro.

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To which variants of Thresh did you beat/lose?

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I've won against U/G/r/w and lost to U/G/r (but this game was very close).


I've got a suggestion for the SB: Sundering Vitae :).

And this ist how my SB looks like at the moment:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Chain of Vapor
2 Ray of Revelation
2 Sundering Vitae

At the moment I'm running Ichorid with the "old" manabase (I run 4 underground sea, 3 Watery Grave, 4 Cephalid Coliseum, 1 Dakmor Salvage).
This mana base has helped me win games in the threshold matchup because I was able to keep dredging up my Golgari thug to block the goyfs from my opponent while gathering enough zombies to swing for the win. If I had been using the manabase with city of brass and gemstone mines I wouldn't have been able to slow play like this.

The mana base I use has the obvious (and many times mentioned) disadvantage that it makes it impossible to run splash colour cards in the sideboard.

I was wondering if anyone here seriously tested using a mana base like mine and putting riftstone portal in the side? I have not yet had the chance of testing this but at first sight it looks ok. Can anyone here tell me why this can or can't work out?

The biggest problemcard your sideboard has to deal with is Leyline of the Void so relying on the graveyard to deal with enchantments looks like a really bad idea. For artifacts (aka Tormod's Crypt) a card like Ancient Grudge works because you are actually able to get it into your graveyard to play it for G. Ray of Revelation is really good against random non-Leyline enchantments like Ghostly Prison, Solitary Confinement or similar stuff but against Leyline you can get neither Ray itself nor the Riftstone Portal to pay for it into your grave.
In case the primary hate you face is Leyline I'd prefer City of Brass -> Emerald Charm over anything else. In any other situation going with a more classic manabase (I'd prefer 4 Underground Sea 4 City of Brass 4 Cephalid Coliseum) seems at least equally good.

Maybe someone could test a sideboard like this:
4 Dryad Arbor
3 Emerald Charm
4 Pithing Needle
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Chain of Vapor

Dryad Arbor might be a good anti-Leyline card because if your opponent mulligans into Leyline you can go beatdown until you find an answer or at least buy more time by chumpblocking. Additionally it ups the creature count for Dread Return and the green count for Charm/Grudge.

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Originally Posted by Silverdragon

Dryad Arbor might be a good anti-Leyline card because if your opponent mulligans into Leyline you can go beatdown until you find an answer or at least buy more time by chumpblocking.

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Or it may get Plowed/Wasted/Bolted/whatever while you wait to topdeck the Charm, which then gets stuck in your hand. Basic Forests for the win.

Hello, decided it's best i'd stop lurking and give something back. Im gonna be playing this deck at only (big) legacy tourney in my country, metagame i expect consists traditionaly of aggro decks but i expect better players to bring fast clock combo decks to foil them. I spent most time learning to play with standard 5color manabase list however now im thinking about this:

// Lands
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [B] Underground Sea
1 [UNH] Swamp
1 [UNH] Island

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [RAV] Golgari Thug
4 [TO] Putrid Imp

// Spells
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [TO] Deep Analysis
4 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [GP] Leyline of the Void

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
SB: 2 [TO] Cephalid Sage
SB: 3 [TSP] Dread Return
SB: 1 [JU] Wonder

Discussion:
1. How justified is to run 5 color manabase just for 2-3 rays/grudges in board as im not sold on emerald charm and similar stuff? i belive same thing charm does can be done by chain of vapor/therapy, am i wrong? Only what rays deal with i can think of top my head are Ghostly Prison (in practice, after board,i managed to go trough one with large troll more than once), Solitary Confinement (can be dealt, aldo less efficiently, with chain of vapor) and both of those arent really all that common.
Now with normal manabase you don't get some major changes but there are few small ones that add up:
-one more card in GY when fetching to reach ******** for coliseum
-improved resistance to wasteland
-less pain damage and lands that sick around instead of depleting
-one card less in library when fetching so your chance to dredge something useful improves
-ability to run wonder

2. MD leyines? how many games you won against non fast clock combo decks that you would lose if you did not have Dread Return package in main? Im really curious if anyone ever tracked this data. And against fast combo (breakfast, tes and mirror. belcher excluded) leyine in first game is goodtimes for you. also it hoses random stuff like deep analysis in madness, genesis...
Other matchups i expect:
***** - Leyline improves match slightly, i always sided Dread package out for needles anyways, this is attrition war for me.
Goblins - MD leyine improves your chanes
Affinity - Not sure what happens here as you lose one turn and their clock is fast but they lose ability to randomly own your bridges with ravager and like 2 ornithopters also disciple becomes chump blocker. I guess it stays the same, maybe a bit better.
i don't really expect much Stax (that possibly gets worse with leylines but than again it makes their crucible is useless) and survival (did not really test so i have no proper data).
Also with leylines in main instead dread package you get at least one free spot more, i upped number of thugs to 4.

3. Sideboard:Needles and chains are standard stuff, rest is dread package i'd board in against fast combo and ravager, any ideas where else? 2 sages ensure i win the same turn i start dredging for real. Wonder... im not sold on it but i it can be used against slower aggro deck that can't put ttheir own creatures in GY instead of Leylines. i'd replace it with something else but not sure what... i don't understand why would i use platinum angel if i could just go for the kill, am i missing something?


Im still not sold on this build but it might be worth a shot.

Personally, I couldn't care less if my lands are getting wasted. They lose their landdrop, and I've been able to do what I wanted to do (that is, resolving a Putrid Imp or Breakthrough). If you're on the play, then you should almost be happy when they play Wasteland. I am most of the time.

I really like the idea of mixer's list. Maindecking leylines might be a quite good possibility to make this deck better against the most common form of hate that's being used against it: Killing your own creatures. But I think its wrong to cut the whole dread return engine from the deck simply because then you'll be missing ways to kill your own guys for a good sake. I guess there should at least stay 1-2 Dread returns in the main to get a troll in matchups where your opponent simply will not kill your non-ichorid guys. Otherwise you'll be sitting there with your bridges and your mighty 1/1 moebas in play without a possibility to transform the into many 2/2 zombies.

(In the build with 1 free slot and the island-manabase I strongly recommend to run the lonely wonder main.)

i'm testing this build:

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Underground Sea
3 Polluted Delta
2 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
1 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Putrid Imp
4 Breakthrough
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Deep Analysis
3 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Careful Study
3 Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 Pithing Needle
SB: 4 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy
SB: 3 Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Wonder


mixer's idea was fine but sometimes you wish you had the combo first game and the leylines. i cut down on dredgers and a land in order to squeeze in 3x leyline (might not be enough but it needs some testing). i thought of cutting down one Sage to have a full set of Leylines

consistency is still there, albeit a little watered down. but you just improved aggro matchups which can hose you easily with their saccable creatures while hating on thresh, breakfast, etc AND keeping your combo

sideboard is still a work in progress

Ok lots of nice things..

Argus + Mixer

I like both your lists. Maindecking Leyline is a great idea and honestly Ives swapped it in and out many times. It depends on the metagame you expect. I would however go with all four rather than three or the card really weakens.

I hear what your saying about Fetchlands but the help they give against Wasteland is nothing compared to the resistance your manabase has against Stifle. Stifle really will ruin you if you cant combo off because you relied on a fetchland, much like the devestation it has against storm.

I still play the 5 color base to support Ray of Revelations and a main deck card which is not black or blue.

Wonder is never as good as another Cephalid Sage or a Platinum Angel. You play far too many games where you wont see an island.

Argus I do think 9 Dredgers is too few.

Mixer the Flame Kin Zealot combo is best in the maindeck since it has the entire deck over powered game one. Thats before graveyard hate comes in and thats also why the Dread Return package is often first to go to support anti LotV/Crypt. I like LotV main as well, dont get me wrong, its just very difficult to find the right cards to cut.

Might I suggest this build for anyone interested in playing them maindeck..

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Putrid Imp
4 Breakthrough
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Deep Analysis
3 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Leyline of the Void

SB: 4 Pithing Needle
SB: 4 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy
SB: 3 Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 Ray of Revelation
SB: 1 Platinum Angel/Ancestors Chosen

Keep the 5c manabase since you have more room in the sb since Leyline is in the main. You would also have room for Chalice agaisnt combo.

Think about Platinum vs Ancestor. What kind of aggro do you plan to play against? Burn, Chalice Stompy? Madness or Goblins? Some aggro can burn you down very quickly but not deal with an Angel, other times they can (tinstreet) so you would benifit more from a shit ton of life gain.

Chain of Vapor is often not enough alone. Black Blue leaves you only Chain as a castable anti Leyline card. Im not comfortable with only 4 answers. Your opponent may be playing 4 Duress or 4 Force of Will. I like the additional 1-2 copies of Ray of Revelation. Its quite possible to cast even with its 2cc sometimes and will hit another one if there are two in play.

Also Chain of Vapor will get your own Leyline bounced. Its not as relevant as it was in the Flash format but its still risky business against decks like Breakfast if running it, and the mirror.

Sundering Vitae would be best if you could convolk the :g: cost.

Dakmor Salvage has gone in and out of my builds a bit. I ultimately cut it since I found it too slow but if you plan to play against shit loads of blue control go for it. Id rather dedicate some love to Phantasmagorian if thats the case tho.

Tolarian Winds is usually only as good as Breakthrough but its casting cost puts it in Daze danger zone even if your planning to play more lands.

It wouldnt be as good as jamming Carefull Study or Brainstorms in the deck.

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Originally Posted by Bane of the Living

I still play the 5 color base to support Ray of Revelations and a main deck card which is not black or blue.

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I think that quote just let me figure out your secret tech, it's Manabond isnt it? And if it wasnt Manabond, I think we should at least try out Manabond it seems pretty good.

The idea of playing Manabond and discarding Breakthrough and Cabal Therapy makes me sad.

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I hear what your saying about Fetchlands but the help they give against Wasteland is nothing compared to the resistance your manabase has against Stifle. Stifle really will ruin you if you cant combo off because you relied on a fetchland, much like the devestation it has against storm.

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Sounds good, fairly good argument for 5color base.

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Wonder is never as good as another Cephalid Sage or a Platinum Angel. You play far too many games where you wont see an island.

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I don't really like wonder but my list had 2 sages already, as for platinum i just can't see why i would reanimate him instead making 8-12 or so hasted 3/3 tokens and swing for the win. what decks do you board platinum against? possibly im failing to see somthing here.

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Mixer the Flame Kin Zealot combo is best in the maindeck since it has the entire deck over powered game one. Thats before graveyard hate comes in and thats also why the Dread Return package is often first to go to support anti LotV/Crypt. I like LotV main as well, dont get me wrong, its just very difficult to find the right cards to cut.

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Yes i understand that, my standard list uses Dread package and all, however this list i posted was based on hypotesis that in many cases (i'd wish i have some numbers now but i really don't, that's why it's hypotesis - not fact) games you win on turn X with bunch of hasted 3/3 zombies would be won on turn x+1 with army of 2/2 zombies and ichorids. often FKZ is just win more. Mostly only against fast combo that one extra turn would matter and against almost all of those decks MD leyline hurts them even more. Not to mention it improves your goblins, ravager and to lesser extent ***** match. Whats your take on this?

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Think about Platinum vs Ancestor. What kind of aggro do you plan to play against? Burn, Chalice Stompy? Madness or Goblins? Some aggro can burn you down very quickly but not deal with an Angel, other times they can (tinstreet) so you would benifit more from a shit ton of life gain.

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And again, why do that? Why not just go for the kill? How often is not possible to go for the kill right away? In my practice i can't remember it happend much if at all.

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Chain of Vapor is often not enough alone. Black Blue leaves you only Chain as a castable anti Leyline card. Im not comfortable with only 4 answers. Your opponent may be playing 4 Duress or 4 Force of Will. I like the additional 1-2 copies of Ray of Revelation. Its quite possible to cast even with its 2cc sometimes and will hit another one if there are two in play.

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i guess you are right here, 5C base better choice.

Then you cast Breakthrough instead...

You didnt say whether or not that was your tech, obviously sometimes the card wouldnt be good in all situations but I think it may be worth a try.

And if that really isnt your tech, my next guess is Gamble :)

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Originally Posted by mixer

what decks do you board platinum against?

MD leyline hurts them even more. Not to mention it improves your goblins, ravager and to lesser extent ***** match. Whats your take on this?

And again, why do that? Why not just go for the kill? How often is not possible to go for the kill right away? In my practice i can't remember it happend much if at all.

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Some matchs where Platinum Angel is great are Belcher, TES, SI, Madness, Red Thresh, Cephalid Breakfast, Ravager, and the mirror.

There are some other decks that also have no way to kill a 4/4 artifact. When you come across them get your auto win. Anyone following Vintage should be familiar with this strategy via Tinker. Dont forget shes a great way to keep from killing yourself by dredging away your deck.

MD LotV is a great idea if you expect alot of those decks. I said myself Im a fan and swap them in and out of my main depending on the meta I expect. Do you like the list I suggested?

The reason for Platinum or Ancestor is because sometimes you just cant win the game. There are bogus things like Solitary Confinement or your zombies cant attack through a Ghostly Prison. There are all kinds of strategies for this but 'you cant lose the game' seems like a great way to combat losing the game.

Ancestors Chosen will sometimes help you get yourself in a better position to be winning. Sometimes, especially in games where you face Tormods Crypt you'll be forced to a crawl. Goblins will eat alot of your life before you get your own offense started. Ancestor will give you the time you need to get back in the game.

Other times the uber return targets are nice are when you only have a single bridge or none at all but have a Pimp, Ichorid, Meoba ect and a return to abuse.

Other great targets include Bogardan Hellkite for its ability to win outside combat and Angel of Despair to basically remove any issue you come across, a new favorite of late. Fitting.

MD Leyline is fine for the reasons listed, but I advise you to play at least 2 Serum Powder MD or SB if you play Leyline (three is better). Serum Powder is not the worst card if you haven't a Leyline, since with this deck almost everything depends on your opening hand, and not on how much card advantage you get, so a dead Powder is well worth the opportunity to try for a good starting hand again.

Manabond looks not bad, but I can't really think of when it would be better than a Putrid Imp or Careful Study (of course, it's better when you have three lands in your opening hand, but that shouldn't really happen with this deck anyway).

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Originally Posted by Bane of the Living

Some matchs where Platinum Angel is great are Belcher, TES, SI, Madness, Red Thresh, Cephalid Breakfast, Ravager, and the mirror.

There are some other decks that also have no way to kill a 4/4 artifact.

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Platinum Angel seems like a very bad idea.

Madness can kill it with Umezawa's Jitte or, more likely, counter Dread Return. And don't we beat Madness to a bloody pulp anyway?

Red Thresh will double burn it or counter Dread Return. And don't we beat Red Thresh into a bloody pulp anyway?

Affinity can Fling something at the Angel.

Cephalid Breakfast can Stern Proctor it (Does it still run that? If not I'm sure it has some answer.)

What other decks can't kill a Platinum Angel, exactly?

I also question how useful it is against most of the combo decks you listed. I think the only scenario where it would be awesome is against a fast Empty The Warrens, which doesn't kill you and which Platinum Angel wrecks (Assuming Belcher doesn't Wish for a Shattering Spree or Goblin War Strike.)

Most other combo decks, however, play out in one of two ways. Either they combo out and kill me before I get a move, or I dredge enough to slaughter their hand with Cabal Therapies and Zombies and Ichorids (Oh my!). If I Dread Return something, why would I not just Dread Return the Zealot and win? (You're not boarding out Bridges, are you? Bridges let you play Therapy aggro-control and have kill conditions!)

This could be useful in the Mirror, I'll grant you, where all they'll have is Chain of Vapor and maybe Ancient Grudge if they run it. But that seems like a reach.

I've also never really seen the appeal of reanimation targets as they always seem worse than reanimating a Sage and winning, unless of course you need to reanimate a Harmonic Sliver or Gloomdrifter so you can later win the game, but Im not even sure if those are good enough to include.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bovinious

I've also never really seen the appeal of reanimation targets as they always seem worse than reanimating a Sage and winning, unless of course you need to reanimate a Harmonic Sliver or Gloomdrifter so you can later win the game, but Im not even sure if those are good enough to include.

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I had to look Gloomdrifter up. Pretty bizarre. I think I'd pick Blazing Archon over it, but still neat.

But yeah, seriously. I agree. The only reanimation target I could imagine ever wanting is Angel of Despair, and the situations for that are virtually so few that I'd have to maindeck it to make it worthwhile. The only three things I ever want to reanimate with Dread Return are Cephalid Sage, Flame-Kin Zealot, and Golgari Grave-Troll, although I suppose in one game out of maybe 800,000 it might be correct to Dread Return a Stinkweed Imp or Narcomoeba (Elephant Grass lock? Iunno. I'm reaching here.)

I've tested out the Platinum Angel sideboard for a few weeks now, and I'm not convinced that it's that strong. Most of the time, if I board it in, I end up not Returning it because there's a Grave-Troll that can win me the game, or something else better.

Thing is, Ichorid wants to be on the offensive. Platinum Angel is too passive. A better board slot would go to either more graveyard protection or a better Dread Return target (which, other than the ones already MD'd, are far and few between...).

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Originally Posted by Bane of the Living

MD LotV is a great idea if you expect alot of those decks. I said myself Im a fan and swap them in and out of my main depending on the meta I expect. Do you like the list I suggested?

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yes, it's pretty much standard maindeck list, just removes small chunks of engine + therapy for leylines. Aldo, for board im still not decided. Ill run chain and needle for sure, also some rays and additional therapy, possibly also another sage to speed me up against fast combo and some ancient grudges, they actualy are fairly good at forcing opponents to pop their crypt (and thats most common hate i will encounter) earlier than they would like.

Platinum Angel forces your opponent to have an answer to it. Alot of decks sb out creature removal and certainly artifact removal. Im sorry if its not to your liking, to each his own. Im certain there have been better things to Dread Return at times but Im also 100 satisfied with some games Angel won me that I had no right or chance winning.

Its ridiculous in the mirror and here in West MA we have a bit of that..

Is your secret tech like, Pull from Eternity or Research // Development?

At this point Ive had like 8 people pm me asking about my tech and nearly a pages worth of guessing on this thread. I hate to hold info from all of you but I really want to launch the new version with surprise.

IMO if your not running my newest version with my tech you should probably be maindecking Leyline of the Void. It's too good to not play in the current metagoyf and its a great card to sb out for your own graveyard removal.

This week at my local tourney I tried out my new version with -1 Deep Analysis, -1 Golgari Thug (down to 3 of each) and +2 Gamble. Gamble won me a game against 43land getting a GGT with a Putrid Imp already on the table, but in my testing it has been nuts whenever I draw it and can cast it, getting me a dredger when I need it, but more importantly getting LED/Breakthrough when I need it. A play of land, Gamble getting LED/Breakthrough is really strong, and if you get unlucky and discard the LED/Breakthrough your not in much worse shape than you were before, although it is a gamble (hence the name). I suggest you guys try it out for serious. And by the way, Leyline sucks pretty hard MD unless your meta is all Breakfast, the "Tarmogoyf meta" thrives just as hard off your GY which happens to put all 6 card types in the yard, and also the fact that you very often want to SB a card out seems like a reason NOT to run that card...

Yesterday I've been playing Ichorid in a 77 participants legacy tournament in Germany. I Placed 12th going 5-2.
The wins were against Goblins, Landstill, Cephalid Breakfast,Faery Stompy and Baseeruption(UGWB Aggro-Control, quite popular in Germany.)
The 2 lost matches were against burn and Empty the Slogger(Red-Stompy).
The loss against Empty the slogger was due to him being lucky and me not.
But the loss against burn was simply due to not being able to handle a lonely crypt. At this time I've pretty much lost my bias about the consistency of the deck as I realised how many mulligans you can take and still get a good draw. But I am still absolutely not satisfied with the sideboard of the deck and in general its ability to fight GY-hate. The only form of GY hate I got to see in my last four tournaments were Crypt and Extirpate(nobody plays Leyline). But this Deck doesnt lose against Extirpate as most of the time it hits the bridges and the you go on winning with Ichorids and reanimated GGT's.
I am 17-5-2 in all four tournaments I played with Ichorid and 4 of the 5 lost games are because of Crypt. Do you have any suggestions how to fight crypt better poastboard? This was my SB for those 4 tournaments, what would you change if you are pretty sure that you won't be facing any Leylines of the Void?
4 Pithing needle
4 Leyline of the void
4 Chalice of the void
1 Sundering Titan
1 Ancient grudge
1 Ray of revelation

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Muradin

Yesterday I've been playing Ichorid in a 77 participants legacy tournament in Germany. I Placed 12th going 5-2.
The wins were against Goblins, Landstill, Cephalid Breakfast,Faery Stompy and Baseeruption(UGWB Aggro-Control, quite popular in Germany.)
The 2 lost matches were against burn and Empty the Slogger(Red-Stompy).
The loss against Empty the slogger was due to him being lucky and me not.
But the loss against burn was simply due to not being able to handle a lonely crypt. At this time I've pretty much lost my bias about the consistency of the deck as I realised how many mulligans you can take and still get a good draw. But I am still absolutely not satisfied with the sideboard of the deck and in general its ability to fight GY-hate. The only form of GY hate I got to see in my last four tournaments were Crypt and Extirpate(nobody plays Leyline). But this Deck doesnt lose against Extirpate as most of the time it hits the bridges and the you go on winning with Ichorids and reanimated GGT's.
I am 17-5-2 in all four tournaments I played with Ichorid and 4 of the 5 lost games are because of Crypt. Do you have any suggestions how to fight crypt better poastboard? This was my SB for those 4 tournaments, what would you change if you are pretty sure that you won't be facing any Leylines of the Void?
4 Pithing needle
4 Leyline of the void
4 Chalice of the void
1 Sundering Titan
1 Ancient grudge
1 Ray of revelation

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Are you sbing in 4 Needles and 1 Grudge against it? That should be enough but you also have Chalice of the Void to play at 0 if your on the play. On the draw its next to useless.

Dont forget to Cabal Therapy for Crypt and slow roll your opponents when they have one rather than combo out. Putrid Imp is amazing against Crypt in helping you rebuild and slow roll. Try him as a four of.

I'm having some post board issues,
how do you beat a control deck that boarded leylines?
If you dare to cast a chain of vapor you are 90% sure for it to get countered.