I have not yet tried Shard Phoenix, but is it better than just running extra Siege-Gang Commanders? That creature is also really unfair when you drop your second one (the first one murders their board, the second one just murders them).
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I have not yet tried Shard Phoenix, but is it better than just running extra Siege-Gang Commanders? That creature is also really unfair when you drop your second one (the first one murders their board, the second one just murders them).
What's so much better about Phoenix that Pyromancer can't do?
-Slay
Chill on its own, no. Engineered Plague? Hell yes. Even a cursory glance at tournament results in the last few months shows that Goblins is overwhelmingly the most popular deck being played and making Top 8 at tournaments. It is a given that people are going to start packing whatever hate they can for it. In a field as wide open as GP: Philly, you can absolutely expect black decks with 3-4 E. Plague in the side, because they are an excellent metagame call against the masses of goblins players that will most assuredly be there.Quote:
Originally Posted by strathe
Engineered Plague hurts Vial Goblins more than any single other card. After several hours worth of playtesting, it is exceedingly clear to me that Goblin King isn't enough to consistently play around it. Neither is 3 Kings. Nor 4. The deck needs answers to it, and REB, Pithing Needle, and Anarchy don't do the job. Disenchant, on the other hand, does the jobs of all those cards in many cases.
If you're careful about how and when you play your Plateaus, it's really not difficult to minimize liability caused by a splash.
Buy itself back for RRR.Quote:
What's so much better about Phoenix that Pyromancer can't do?
Phoenix doesnt care about Sharpshooter being in play, and a cycled Incinerator doesnt stop it from killing their team. Yes, its good with Vial, but after you wrath them, youll probably have a turn to buy it back if you need to.
If Engineered Plague is the only reason to splash white has anybody thought about playing that terrible Darksteel card Echoing Calm. It will deal with multiple plagues so that you can better recover if the second one gets played.
The whole point about running disenchant is that it gives you flexiblitity, not simply because it provides an answer to engineered plague. While the majority of threats you'll be using it againts are indeed enchantments, there are some artifacts that can't simply be ignored.Quote:
If Engineered Plague is the only reason to splash white has anybody thought about playing that terrible Darksteel card Echoing Calm. It will deal with multiple plagues so that you can better recover if the second one gets played.
Okay, so assuming you're going to be faced with a wide variety of archetypes (at least in the first few rounds), I would still argue that pithing needle/anarchy is superior to disenchant. My reasoning is that pithing needle and anarchy provide an answer to pretty much any permanent goblin hate card you can reasonably expect to see, with the exception of chill and engineered plague. Chill is stopped by REB, which is in the sb anyway for solidarity, so that leaves engineered plague.Quote:
In a field as wide open as GP: Philly, you can absolutely expect black decks with 3-4 E. Plague in the side, because they are an excellent metagame call against the masses of goblins players that will most assuredly be there.
Now I ask you: how often are you going to see a competetive deck with access to black mana? The only ones I can think of are Reanimator, RecSur, The Rock, Nausea, and Pox (though It's possible The Game and Suicide Black could make appearances). I think it's safe to assume you won't be hitting too many of these decks, and you almost definitely won't see any after round 2 or 3. I'm confident, however, that belcher and survival-based decks will show up in much larger numbers. If nothing more, Pithing needle gives you an answer to belcher, a matchup that that disenchant actually makes very little impact in. Without pithing needle or null rod, belcher will crush you unless they get unlucky with a spoils. Also, while you technically have the advantage against ATS and R/G survival, it would make things a lot easier if you dropped a pithing needle on the table and sealed the win.
Hey guys, outside of some of the more volitile arguments on this thread, I would like to say I appreciate everyone's opinions here so far. I recently put together my first goblin deck and have started playing. My build is very near that optimal mono-red build posted here FYI. So here's what I'm here to say and ask.
First of all I have to say I'm really impressed with all of you and your ability to T4 consistenly with this deck. When I first looked at goblins I thought, this will be easy to build and win with. This is simply not true, goblins takes a lot more skill that I could have imagined. This brings me to my question, what are some of the more common play and combinations that I need to be working for in the different match ups. Fortunately for me right now my local meta isn't representive of Tier decks though there is a lot of rogue aggro there. What I'm wanting to know is what I need to be doing to set up the board for the win in control, aggro/control, and aggro matchups?
My common plays are usually:
Kiki + Ringleader = buttloads of gobbos
Matron for: Ringleader, Sharpshooter, warchief, or if i want to be ballsy kiki
it all really depends on how much mana you have at that time, what you have in your hand and what you can grab with Matron that will give you an advantage. Usual Matron Grabs include: Ringleader, Kiki, SGC, Sharpshooter, Warchief, hell ive even grabbed gempalm to cycle that turn only to kill a blocking/next turn attacking threat. But thats me, people here will probably disagree with me but meh *shrugs* whatever.
Out of curiosity, what does splashing green bring goblins. I was thinking about this and I think is some respects green would be more favorable than white given gobbos aggressiveness. I've been looking around through what green has to offer and I'll definitely post some ideas once I get them all written down, but I would also like to see what everone else thinks even if it means that I get flamed.:)
The green splash is for naturalize, is some/all metas you need to be able to deal with enginered plauge. this is mainly if you meta sees alot of goblins being played, otherwise mos people dont sideboard plague. If you were to splash green it's basicly because more people own a set of Tiagas vs. a set of plateaus. The white splash being better because u can sideboard swords. Black is splached mainly for cabal therapy and secondarly for stuff like duress, chains of mest. and patriarchs bidding. Overall the best splash in most players view is white. That is if you intend to spash at all. Mono red has the advantage of a more stable mana base and the ability to run more non red producing lands such as wasteland and port. Port useful in mana denial so you can buy the time you need to win the game. Also mono red sideboards anarchy to deal with COP:Red and humity/reverance.Quote:
Originally Posted by MoxSlaver
Mono red also has the downside of getting reamed by Sphere of Law and Engineered Plague. Usually the only splash card is the Disenchant effect because the main problem cards you run into are enchantments. There are some black versions with hand disruption and recursion, however.
Also, it is entirely possible to splash a color and still run Waste and Port.
I would like to further discuss the possibility of a green splash. Green was initially dismissed becuase STP was also under consideration, but with STP out of the picture (it seems) why would Naturalize not work as well as Disenchant? We also have the advantage of running in color fetches that, if merited, can fetch a lone Forest in the deck (or stick to Taigas - it would depend on the level of fear-of-Wasteland). R/g also offers Artifact Mutation, which in conjunction with the Naturalizes & the 8 Blast Plan would round out a sideboard nicely. In a tourney like Philly, there will be a metric ton of relevant artifacts played. The ability to run a '7 Blast Plan' for artifacts like Belcher, Time Vault, Nevy's Disk, Crucible, Masticore, O-Stone, Jitte, SoFi, Aether Vial etc etc from decks ranging from the mirror & Landstill to RGSA & Jack Black/MBC & Angel Stompy & Fish to Belcher & FlameVault to unexpected decks like Ravager (it WILL show up, and is an easy port from both Type 2 and Extended) makes green a legitimate option, imo.
Okay, here's a short list from green that makes me wonder if it's worth splashing green for any other reason other than Naturalize.
Instansts (1 and 2 cc): Berserk, Bind, Blossoming Wreath, Crop Rotation, Echoing Courage, Howling Gale, Magnify, Natural Selection, Naturalize, Oxidize, Reclaim, Repopulate, Sandstorm, Seedtime, Serene Heart, Skyshroud Blessing, Tangle, Tel-Jilad Justice, Tranquil Domain, Tribal Unity, Undergrowth, Vitilize, Avoid Fate, and Rust.
Enchantments ( 1 to 3 cc): Burgeoning, Compost, Concordant Crossroads, Crosswinds, Dense Foliage, Exploration, Familiar Ground, Fecundity, Manabond, Mirri's Guile, Multani's Preserve, Overwhelming Instinct, Primal Rage, Root Maze, Steely Resolve.
These are just suggestions of cards to look into and see what needs to be tested. Some of these cards look really interesting to me and look as is they would work really nicely with Goblins. For ex; Tribal Unity (X2G) Creatures of a type get +X/+X until end of turn. With 6 or more Goblins on the board mid game this card looks like it would definitely be worth tapping out for. Other instants that looked really good to me were Undergrowth and Seedtime, the later especially in the sideboard. For the most part, the enchantments are cheap, have affects that cover the board and lend themselves to Goblins game plan to one degree or another.
I'm not advocating the auto inclusion of any of these cards, I was just look in through what Green had to offer if someone wanted to splash green as green gives Goblins Naturalize if needed like white has Disenchant. Green looks to me like it offers more cards that play into it's aggressiveness. Add to that by using Wooded Foothills a player could run 2 Tiaga's and 1 Forest without unbalancing Goblins consistent mana base.
These are suggestions and ideas that I think that cannot be overlooked or left untested. Look into the list, see what everone thinks and lets discuss this and play with some of these cards and see if they lend themselves to Goblins gameplan without messing up it's redundancy and consistency.
The thing that sucks about running things that arent goblins is that they either tend to suck with ringleader and get owned away or if theyre in your opening hand when you dont want them, or when youre in topdeck mode and you need a goblin for the win and you grab one of those cards you decided to splash for which made you end up losing
This sentence wasn't overly coherent. Please make an effort to develop your posts more thoroughly so that they benefit the conversation. - Zilla
Here’s the deal:
Carvern Ninja basically believes that NQG/Super-Gro has a good Goblins match.
I and a couple other people disagree. In that particular match, I have never won playing GRO, and have never lost playing Goblins. Well, maybe a game, but never a match.
Have you, the goblin players, experienced similar results?
NQG or Super Gro are good match-ups for you. Vial is a bomb. You can just overwhelm them, and with 4 Ports 4 Wasteland, it really keeps them off the good mana. They can't support Tividar's Crusade against us, even though people seem to be playing it. Sphere of Law is expensive for a 18 land deck, especially against mana denial and a super fast clock. In my experience it is a very good match-up. But maybe that's just me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Squares
I was wondering why no one plays lightning bolts. I understand the negative interaction with Ringleaders, but a bit more creature removal is nice and I like being able to deal that last 3 to the dome.
I run the same list as Scarface on the bottom on page 17 except -1 Incinerator, -1 Pyromancer, -1 Land, +3 Lightning Bolt, -4 Wasteland, +4 Mountain.
The other thing I was wondering about was how important the Wastelands were. When I play Vial Goblins it seems like a somewhat mana-hungry deck, and so I generally don't like saccing my land. I'd probably still have enough red sources if I swapped 4 Mountains for 4 Wasteland, but what I really hate is when my land gets Wastelanded.
First off, welcome to The Source! I'm so glad more people are posting here lately.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mogg
Secondly, Wasteland is ESSENTIAL. In the Landstill match-up, Wasteing a White source keeps them off Wrath for at least a turn, usually more. With a Port out, I've shut them off it completly.
Thirdsly, I don't advocate Lightning Bolt at times, and sometimes I'm going to. For the GPT's, I wouldn't recommend it. Why? At least where I am, you run into alot more competive decks like Landstill, and more evenly played between tier 1 decks (Last top 8 feature 2 Landstill, 2 Solidarity, and 2 Goblins). At GP Philly, if you don't have a 3rd round bye, I would play Bolts to fend off all the random aggro you will undoubtable face moreso early. But if you win byes, I would advocate not using them, as more Solidarity/Landstill will pop-up, and Goblins. Bolts are good in the mirror, but only best when your on the play with a Lackey. That start is also great, but is stoped by a Fanatic or a Bolt of theres, and you can just use your own Fantastic or a Gempalm to blast away any blockers in site.
Goblins can be mana hungry, but Vial and Lackey really help. I don't know how many times Wastes and Ports have locked my opponent down for 2-3 turns, while my Lackey and/or Vial does all the dirty work.
I would have to agree with 'Etak' about the Wastelands. Although my meta doesn't see a lot of tier decks, I do see a whole lot of aggro using non-basic lands. Popping an opponents 1 turn artifact land is huge, and in my case sealed the game before it ever really got going. Against Mono-Colored decks having 1 or 2 colorless mana hasn't been a draw back, nor has it really slowed down what I'm doing all that much, though I have found that I have to think through what order I'm going to play things sometimes.
As to 'Bolts', I'm not sure about that yet. Thus far when I'm playing Goblins, I find that anything that's not a goblin needs to go. From the stand point of synergy and out right speed, having a pre-board MD that's solid goblins is working out a lot better for me than one that has any number of non-goblins in it.
Hi, this is my first post so please be gentle. I wanted to mention the following trick a friend does with Lackey and the Viridian Longbow.
The Lackey can actually score damage on the opposing player by using a Viridian Longbow in the later turns. The Lackey can stand back do his damage before the combat step. This still allows a Goblin to be placed into play since the Lackey scored the damage. With a warchief out this can work very well. A friend of mine started doing this and the Lackey can often survive and be a factor putting Goblins into play even in the late turns.
Likewise, I like the lightning bolts in the goblin deck to act as removal to get opposing creatures out of the way on turn 2 for the Lackey.
:)
The problem with Viridian Longbow is that it basically underpowered for this deck (actually it is underpowered for any constructed deck). While the trick with Lackey is cute, it isn't impressive enough to warrant putting such a lackluster card into the deck. If you really want a Lackey for the mid game that doesn't require combat damage use Goblin Wizard. It has many advantages over Longbow;
1)It's a Goblin
2)It has a relevant second ability
3)It has creature type Goblin (I think that this is important enough to mention at least twice)
4)It can be vialed out.
Non-Sequitur - I have only skimmed the last few pages because the discussion shifted towards things that A) I already knew or B) I didn't care to know so if I am repeating something then I apologize in advance.
I was thinking on the bus today about how I could make a fun aggro-control deck that didn't lose to Goblins. After about five minutes I gave up and decided to try to modify Goblins just enough to make it fun for me to play. Here, for better or worse, is what I came up with
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..
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Wait for it..
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Almost.
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...
...
..
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OK. 4 Meddling Mage in the sideboard.
You are thinking, "WTFSTFUWTF THAT'S CRAZY!" and you're right. I'm not entirely convinced that Meddling Mage will really help all that much in your troublesome matchups but, on the other hand, it's not too narrow a card. Landstill uses it against Solidarity and, seeing as how Goblins only has a 50/50 (from what I have heard) matchup against Solidarity I thought Mages could help there as well. Mages can stall or prevent E.Plagues and COP:Reds from hitting play and can help float you through random combo decks you might face in rounds 1 and 2 (Belcher, Tendrils) not that a Goblins player is afraid of being knocked out by a sea of Belcher decks.
Aaaaanyway, I figured that if MM was good enough for Affinity then he was good enough for me. To be honest, I havent tested the Mage yet so this could all be crazytalk but I thought I should put the idea out there and see what you kids think.
For reference:
My SB is currently 4 Disenchant, 4 Meddling Mage, 3 Jitte, and 4 REB.
I would side out the Gempalm Incinerators for the Mages in most matchups since I can't see you needing both against any particular deck and because the Incinerators are pretty much dead against combo/control.
Thoughts?
1. Your deck isn't Blue.Quote:
Originally Posted by danyul
2. Your better off racing Solidarity.
3. Meddling Mage is Blue.
Need I say more?
Goblin Wizard is pretty fun...
How are incinerators dead? They let you draw!
"Hmm no creatures?? Then ill draw into a better goblin, play it and swing for the win!"
Dont even put blue into goblins or even white and blue. I Feel goblins chould stay red and only red unless you wanna splash black for festering goblin, he might actually be useful if he is a goblin ( I think hes only a zombie tho...).
I swear one more crazy out burst like putting meddling mage in goblins and ill kick you in the nads!
The only creatures that should be in goblins, are goblins! The less goblins there are the worse ringleader becomes!
Not helpful.Quote:
FluffyPinkBunnies Posted on Oct. 06 2005,12:11
I swear one more crazy out burst like putting meddling mage in goblins and ill kick you in the nads!
Actually, I would appreciate it if you did.Quote:
etakspeelstae Posted on Oct. 06 2005,10:44
1. Your deck isn't Blue.
2. Your better off racing Solidarity.
3. Meddling Mage is Blue.
Need I say more?
Goblin Wizard is pretty fun...
@ etakspeelstae
1. Aether Vial w/2 counters > blue lands
2. In the Solidarity matchup Incinerators say "2: draw a card." I'd rather have something that says "Free: stall for enough time to make this matchup more than a cointoss." That said, I'm not too familiar with the matchup but I would rather play something that slows down my opponent for (free) than something that *might* speed up my kill for (2), especially when you should be tapping out to play threats against such a fast combo deck.
3. See 1.
Goblin Wizard seems like a strictly WinMore card to me.
@FluffyPinkBunnies
Incinerators are dead when your opponent is not playing any creatures. Sure, they cycle in that case and that's neat but I'd rather get something more effective (read: something that screws with my opponents game plan) out of the board for games 2 and 3.
The Ringleader argument is almost moot versus a combo deck because the Ringleader doesnt really speed up your kill considering that you need to kill them before they untap with four lands in play. I am assuming here that you hardcast the Ringleader for four but even if you play him on the third turn with a Warchief out, he's just an expensive 2/2 assuming that you won't be able to play the goblins you drew before Solidarity decks you.
@ Everybody else
Goodness, it was just an idea. Think about it a bit before you shoot it down. I'm not saying it's revolutionary but it's something to mull over or even *discuss* the merits of. I considered running the Mage as something of a gambit - a risky play that will either ensure victory or set you back. I'm still on the fence about it to be honest. However, I was hoping that somebody would be able to fully convince me Meddling Mage is either not needed or an interesting idea. I'm leaning towards the latter.
Extended Affinity used to run Meddling Mage even though it had no white sources (Vial, again) as a way to get a leg up in its problem matchups. I see Mage fulfilling a similar function in Vial Goblins. In the Landstill matchup you can name WoG and force them to find a Swords to Plowshares before dicing your army and given the limited draw in Landstill decks, that may take them a turn or two which is more than enough to steal the win. In the Solidarity matchup a Mage naming Brain Freeze or Cunning Wish can stall them for a turn or two and can cause poor players to scoop. Against random decks splashing black you can name Engineered Plague (which has been said to be this deck's biggest problem) and prevent it from hitting the table long enough to win or draw into a more appropriate answer (Disenchant). Even Disenchant isn't too helpful because once the E.Plague hits, it has already done it's worst. In all of these matchups the Incinerators are less than stellar but I'm in no way suggesting that I would *only* side out Incinerators in order to run Mages. I am in no way saying that Mages will shut an opponent out of the game. However, your opponent will be forced to deal with it in most cases and that gives you valuable time.
Anyway, I have class. Somebody please give me some constructive criticism instead of this close-minded fear-speak.
You're working on a couple wrong assumptions about meddling mage here.
1) Affinity decks ran Aether Vial, Glimmervoid and Ancient Den and Seat of the Synod to all get Mage into play. Ancient Den was added just because of the Mage.
2) Considering goblins has lots of card advantage, it's main sources of it (Matron and Ringleader) Can't get either the mage nor the vial itself.
3) You NEED Aether Vial to play mage. Running 4 of both Vial and Mage in your deck you have a 40% chance of seeing either in your initial 7 cards. That would be a 16% chance to see both in your opening hand and in an average game against Solidarity you will only have a chance to draw about 3-4 more (non-goblin) cards in an average game.
4) Landstill does it's damnedest to keep Aether Vial not in play because it allows Goblins to play gobs at no tempo loss from casting them, keeps them at instant speed and allows them to dodge the sorcery-speed removal of WoG and Vengence in addition to the obvious dodging of counterspells. In fact Aether Vial itself was probably the main reason Landstill started maindecking Disenchant.
5) When playing against Solidarity presideboard both decks attempt to goldfish eachother. Goblins attempts to go for the turn 3 kill though most likely they amass and army and bring the Solidarity player to about 5 life on the turn 3 attack phase. Goblins never wants to cycle an incinterator when solidarity has 3 lands in play because Solidarity will attempt to combo off in response. In addition if you did get a mage out against High Tide, you should be naming High Tide itself to slow thier clock down immensely compared to yours.
Edited By LinkXwing on 1128620941
1. True. A turn 1 Vial definitly gets FoW'ed. Not saying they always have it... But the chances are equal. No Vial? Much deader then Incinerator if you ask me (or anybody, for that matter)Quote:
Actually, I would appreciate it if you did.
@ etakspeelstae
1. Aether Vial w/2 counters > blue lands
2. In the Solidarity matchup Incinerators say "2: draw a card." I'd rather have something that says "Free: stall for enough time to make this matchup more than a cointoss." That said, I'm not too familiar with the matchup but I would rather play something that slows down my opponent for (free) than something that *might* speed up my kill for (2), especially when you should be tapping out to play threats against such a fast combo deck.
3. See 1.
Goblin Wizard seems like a strictly WinMore card to me.
2. Free? I fail to see how it is free. Vialing out a stall card is hardly free when it slows your kill. They can easily play around it, with an EOT/Main Phase/While going off Wish --> Bounce spell.
3. See my 1.
Goblin Wizard is kinda a win more card. How is something as ridonkulously terrible as MM better? The Wizard can easily be as win-more as Kiki-Jiki is. While I don't think they are strictly "win more" I do think they arn't always great. But they DO say "win NOW" instead of "win more" IMHO.
I don't really see why you'd play Meddling Mage over Cabal Therapy. Therapy is a little bit harder to use, I s'pose, but is much easier to splash for and has immense synergy with the deck. The extended lists splashed black for Therapy anyways-- and that lets you sideboard Duress, Living Death, or even Dralnu's Crusade if you want.
@etakspeelstae:
I also thought Goblin Wizard had some potential, so I did some of testing with 1 copy and even played it in a few tourneys. In the end, the wizard causes you to run out of cards in hand more quickly, without significantly speeding up the deck unless it's dropped turn 2 with a lackey. Generally, by the time you'd be able to cast wizard, you'd already be able to hardcast whatever goblin you'd tap it for. Also, it's hardly consistent enough to provide protection from swords. I'd only suggest adding one copy in the sb if angel stompy is a problem in your meta.
Discussion, even when it's aimed at making my ideas look dumb, is always welcome.
1. News to me.Quote:
LinkXwing Posted on Oct. 06 2005,1:48
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You're working on a couple wrong assumptions about meddling mage here.
1) Affinity decks ran Aether Vial, Glimmervoid and Ancient Den and Seat of the Synod to all get Mage into play. Ancient Den was added just because of the Mage.
2) Considering goblins has lots of card advantage, it's main sources of it (Matron and Ringleader) Can't get either the mage nor the vial itself.
3) You NEED Aether Vial to play mage. Running 4 of both Vial and Mage in your deck you have a 40% chance of seeing either in your initial 7 cards. That would be a 16% chance to see both in your opening hand and in an average game against Solidarity you will only have a chance to draw about 3-4 more (non-goblin) cards in an average game.
4) Landstill does it's damnedest to keep Aether Vial not in play because it allows Goblins to play gobs at no tempo loss from casting them, keeps them at instant speed and allows them to dodge the sorcery-speed removal of WoG and Vengence in addition to the obvious dodging of counterspells. In fact Aether Vial itself was probably the main reason Landstill started maindecking Disenchant.
5) When playing against Solidarity presideboard both decks attempt to goldfish eachother. Goblins attempts to go for the turn 3 kill though most likely they amass and army and bring the Solidarity player to about 5 life on the turn 3 attack phase. Goblins never wants to cycle an incinterator when solidarity has 3 lands in play because Solidarity will attempt to combo off in response. In addition if you did get a mage out against High Tide, you should be naming High Tide itself to slow thier clock down immensely compared to yours.
2. True, but I never intended on getting Mage consistently. Like I said earlier, running the Mage is a gamble. I am very aware of the cost of running a hard-to-play non-goblin in this deck. What I should have been more direct about asking were the benefits of running the Mage should he ever see play. That is to say, do the as yet undefined pros outweigh the everpresent and commonly argued cons?
3. Again, running the Mage is a gamble, or gambit (because I like that word better, regardless of whether or not its definition fits my usage).
4. More news to me. Most of my testing is done over random people on MWS because I cant find any tourneys less than an hour away from where I live. Needless to say, most people on MWS are less than stellar players and usually run bad decks.
5. So, given what you have said about the matchup, would slipping in a Mage on the third turn slow down Solidarity enough for you to pull a win? If so, are you afraid of the matchup enough to warrant playing such a risky SB card? Just curious.
1. Point.Quote:
etakspeelstae Posted on Oct. 06 2005,2:45
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Quote
Actually, I would appreciate it if you did.
@ etakspeelstae
1. Aether Vial w/2 counters > blue lands
2. In the Solidarity matchup Incinerators say "2: draw a card." I'd rather have something that says "Free: stall for enough time to make this matchup more than a cointoss." That said, I'm not too familiar with the matchup but I would rather play something that slows down my opponent for (free) than something that *might* speed up my kill for (2), especially when you should be tapping out to play threats against such a fast combo deck.
3. See 1.
Goblin Wizard seems like a strictly WinMore card to me.
----
1. True. A turn 1 Vial definitly gets FoW'ed. Not saying they always have it... But the chances are equal. No Vial? Much deader then Incinerator if you ask me (or anybody, for that matter)
2. Free? I fail to see how it is free. Vialing out a stall card is hardly free when it slows your kill. They can easily play around it, with an EOT/Main Phase/While going off Wish --> Bounce spell.
3. See my 1.
Goblin Wizard is kinda a win more card. How is something as ridonkulously terrible as MM better? The Wizard can easily be as win-more as Kiki-Jiki is. While I don't think they are strictly "win more" I do think they arn't always great. But they DO say "win NOW" instead of "win more" IMHO.
2. I'm arguing that it slows them down more than it does you. Yes, they can easily play around it, but that would require them to play cards that are not drawing into a god-hand. While they do that for maybe a turn or two at most you are beating face. It might all even out but I can't say without testing first.
3. Fair nuff, but keep in mind that I meant the card as a gambit (see, it is a cool word) and not a consistently useful hate card.
Meddling Mage is definitely not "ridonkulously terrible". Far from it. I don't know where you play but Mage is a house. He might be hard to get into play in this particular deck, but that doesn't mean he is a bad card. And Kiki is not a win-more card, usually. I often find myself playing the Jeek as an out when the board gets clogged up or I run out of steam in the face of larger blockers or spot removal.
This is probably the best argument against playing Meddling Mage, assuming that you don't mind switching from an R/W build to an R/B build.Quote:
Ridiculous Hat Posted on Oct. 06 2005,3:43
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I don't really see why you'd play Meddling Mage over Cabal Therapy. Therapy is a little bit harder to use, I s'pose, but is much easier to splash for and has immense synergy with the deck. The extended lists splashed black for Therapy anyways-- and that lets you sideboard Duress, Living Death, or even Dralnu's Crusade if you want.
A Meddling Mage in play on turn 3 in a post-SB game will most definitely help against Solidarity. In the 20% of the time that you do get the turn 3 Mage if you name High Tide and can follow it up with mass beats (not hard to do) you will probably win the game. However, there are just better, more efficient cards to run in that slot that would not require splashing 2 colors and/or require another card of yours to be in play when you only have 4 copies of Vial and no way to search for them. Pyrostatic Pillar is a beating and is in every way as good as Meddling Mage in both the Landstill and High Tide matchups. Both decks can play around it but it's still a good card against them. If you are REALLY fearing those 2 decks run Cabal Therapy MD and SB both Sirocco and Pillar. However, devoting that much SB space will leave your mirror matches and other aggro matches lacking. Sirocco and Pillar are absolute beatings against High Tide and were probably the biggest reason most Solidarity players run 6-8 BEBs in their Sideboard.
If you want to beat High Tide post SB realize that you are the control deck. You must stop them from comboing off to win. Sirocco/Pillar stops them from comboing and so does mass discard.
Edited By LinkXwing on 1128642799
I Know it's probably been said before but im not sure where it was exactly but Goblin Wizard belongs in this deck!!! At least a one of!!! It's really good and saved me alot of matches!!
Goblin Wizard 2RR
T:Put a goblin from your hand into play.
R:Give target Goblin Protection from white until end of turn.
1/1
He is Amazing!
If you havent tried him...do it! You wont regret it.
What wonderful reasoning.
He's 4 mana, doesn't affect the board position, doesn't pump your entire team up to 'you die' heights and doesn't replenish your hand.
He's either an awful Goblin Lackey or an awful Aether Vial depending on your POV. In any event, he's hardly worth running in the deck.
I'm new here, but I've been playing the deck for a couple of months now and It's really hard to believe that people are considering to actually PLAY mm in goblins. It's a very gppd card, but it
a) slows your clock
b) requires 2 different colors of mana, and BOTH are off-color
c) it's to slow to play it with vial
d) It is no golin, can't be ringleadered, matroned or lackeyd out (I just invented 3 new verbs!)
e) All of this has been mentioned before, so what's the point of posting this?
Quoted for truthery...Quote:
He's 4 mana, doesn't affect the board position, doesn't pump your entire team up to 'you die' heights and doesn't replenish your hand.
He's either an awful Goblin Lackey or an awful Aether Vial depending on your POV. In any event, he's hardly worth running in the deck.
Speaking of crappy goblins... kiki owns! He turns your late-game matrons into ringleaders-on-a-stick. He is no win-more card, it is a win-now card (or the next 2-3 turns).
Since we seem to be on a heretical bent...why not take a page from the Burn players (before they flamed out, burned out & got locked...) and try R/u for Alter Reality? Goblins tends to splash white (when it does splash) for enchantments that are bad for Goblins, correct? CoP/RoP Red, Moat, Humility, Reverance, Sphere of Law, Chill, Solitary Confinement...most of those are answered just as well by blue as white, and the consensus on Humility seems to be a shrug & willingness to beat the opponent to death via masses of weasels-sans-abilities. Alter Reality has other applications in other matchups, though. Starting with combo, turning High Tide into 'all mountains produce an extra whatever when tapped until end of turn' seems like a good play against Solidarity. Silver Knight now has Protection from Mauve...I know, in a tournament you must name a legit color, but he can now be Incineratored. Blue would also give you access to sideboard cards for other eventualities. Access to bounce would be nice, Echoing Truth on those Humilities before damage goes on the stack? E. Truth on your mirror foes important multiple goblins in the middle of combat (or yours after damage is stacked but before it resolves...). E.Truth handles any of the aforementioned enchantments that Alter Reality does not - and both diversify your board options nicely. Just a thought, but it doesn't hurt to think outside the box (nvm, I lie, people throw things at you, repeatedly :cool: ) especially if you are looking to gain an advantage in a stagnating situation.
PLEASE play Meddling Mage in your sideboard of a Goblins deck. PLEASE.
It's 4 less cards that are actually relevant in any likely matchup. You're not actually liable to cast Mage when you'd need it, and a turn 3 Meddling Mage probably isn't going to impede them from setting up and killing you.
Alright. Goddamn. Goddamn. The animosity. Goddamn.
I made a suggestion that I admitted was off the wall. It was a whimsical idea and I presented it as such. Link knocked some sense into me and I assumed the matter was over and done with. So I posted some wacky idea? OK, so what? The Goblin thread wasn't going anywhere and I thought I could try to spice things up but no, you guys weren't having it. Fucking shit man. Why must you guys go looking for dead horses to beat? I admit now and did when I first posted the idea that MM is not that great of a card to be putting in this deck. I was probably being allured by the coolness of dropping a Mage against a combo deck. I freely admit that, but do you guys have to keep hacking away at me/my idea for no reason? Link handled the situation nicely and *politely* and I didn't bring it up again. What the fuck more do you want?
Shit.
Maybe I'll just stop posting and go back to lurking. Then we'll all be happy.
Peace The Fuck Out.
Why would you post something in the LMF if you know it's a god awful idea. Seriously. This is the most heavily modded and important section of the entire site. God forbid people didn't know that you were kidding, and even if they did, this isn't the place for it. The fact that you took the argument seriously to begin with will open you up to alot of hate, and that's all I'm saying.
So basically, Don't post in the LMF unless it's important and you're prepared to be shot down. God knows it's happened to me.
Hey, he posted something that had the possibility of being a decent idea...dropping mage against Solidarity on turn 2-3 and backing it up with very quick beats WILL win you the game. The problem lies in consistantly getting the mage into play. It was a decent idea untill fully thought through to it's conclusion. Sometimes the person suggesting the idea doesn't take it all the way to it's conclusion and that is what a discussion board is for.
Fuck, get off the guys case. Some ideas work, some don't, but any idea that might be good should be brought up. With a cardpool this deep there is bound to be something that someone hasn't thought of yet.