[Deck] Dragon Stompy

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Originally Posted by Phantom

Street Wraith. Ugh. The LAST thing this deck needs is more mulligans!

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QFT. Wraith is an awful idea.

I don't advocate cutting Seething Song. Song is too broken with Pit Dragon, Slogger, Jitte/Equip, Sofi/Equip, or general turn 1-2 asshattery involving dropping 2 permanents in one swoop.

Dragon Stompy relies heavily on its incredibly explosive aggressive starts to win matches when its disruption pieces can't. Song is a very important part of that. Dragon Stompy, while in need of consistency that Song can't provide, can't afford to pursue such consistency at the expense of power.

Has Taste for Mayhem been discussed? It has the advantage of instant gratification over Equip, and the hellbent is nice, but I'm not sure if it makes the cut as it doesn't mix well with Chalice. Thoughts?

Too small of an effect for the card disadvantage from Chalice and removal on targeted creatures. All of the three possible equipments provide some sort of card advantage, though removal, card drawing, and recursion.

// Lands
11 [IA] Snow-Covered Mountain
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Gathan Raiders
2 [MR] Arc-Slogger
4 [DIS] Rakdos Pit Dragon
3 [MOR] Taurean Mauler
3 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide

// Spells
4 [9E] Seething Song
4 [8E] Blood Moon
4 [DS] Trinisphere
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 [10E] Pyroclasm
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [UD] Powder Keg
SB: 3 [PS] Flametongue Kavu

After some debating I have decided to give up on Hellbent Stompy, as it seemed not to be working out to well. I will be going back to just plain Dragon Stompy. However I want people's opinions on how this deck build looks?

I much prefer Leyline of the Void over Tormod's Crypt, as it is hard for a person to shut it down with Chalice of the Void... however I realize that Leyline of the Void is probably not the most playable card in this deck. So I was wondering whether it is worth it, or if I should go with Tormod's Crypt just for the hell of it?

I decided to run Mauler over Razormane Masticore, as it is a method of shutting down peoples spells a little bit at a time. However it is more of a soft lock than a full on hard lock.

Other than that, I am running a full compliment of Trinisphere in the main deck just because it is so powerful. Sword of Fire and Ice has been relagated to a one of. However I am willing to consider switching the make up of the deck a little bit so that I am running 3 Trinisphere and 2 Sword's of Fire and Ice or 1 Sword and 1 Jitte, or something like that. But I want at least 3 Trinisphere main decked, as I think they eat the format.

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Originally Posted by Cathal83

// Lands
11 [IA] Snow-Covered Mountain
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Gathan Raiders
2 [MR] Arc-Slogger
4 [DIS] Rakdos Pit Dragon
3 [MOR] Taurean Mauler
3 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide

// Spells
4 [9E] Seething Song
4 [8E] Blood Moon
4 [DS] Trinisphere
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 [10E] Pyroclasm
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [UD] Powder Keg
SB: 3 [PS] Flametongue Kavu

After some debating I have decided to give up on Hellbent Stompy, as it seemed not to be working out to well. I will be going back to just plain Dragon Stompy. However I want people's opinions on how this deck build looks?

I much prefer Leyline of the Void over Tormod's Crypt, as it is hard for a person to shut it down with Chalice of the Void... however I realize that Leyline of the Void is probably not the most playable card in this deck. So I was wondering whether it is worth it, or if I should go with Tormod's Crypt just for the hell of it?

I decided to run Mauler over Razormane Masticore, as it is a method of shutting down peoples spells a little bit at a time. However it is more of a soft lock than a full on hard lock.

Other than that, I am running a full compliment of Trinisphere in the main deck just because it is so powerful. Sword of Fire and Ice has been relagated to a one of. However I am willing to consider switching the make up of the deck a little bit so that I am running 3 Trinisphere and 2 Sword's of Fire and Ice or 1 Sword and 1 Jitte, or something like that. But I want at least 3 Trinisphere main decked, as I think they eat the format.

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I have to say that I don't like it that your main deck is lacking Jitte. I can't stress enough how many times that card has saved me in an aggro match up because of the life gain. Quick beats plus tomb damage is bad news for this deck if you can't get a lock piece down quick or first turn Slogger.

Leyline is an awful idea in Dragon Stompy, despite it being generally more powerful than Crypt. This is in large part because if you topdeck it at any point during a game, you just screwed yourself out of Hellbent for either the rest of the game or until you draw a Gathan Raiders.

Leyline just also adds to your general inconsistency. In a deck that really wants to win against ichorid by locking it out, leyline works well. It's also better than crypt in a deck that can reliably cast it, although that seems pretty obvious. All Dragon Stompy needs to do is stall out Ichorid for a few turns and crypt does exactly that. With those extra turns, racing dredge is not very hard. Even the threat of crypt forces them to play slow enough that racing them is not too hard.

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Street Wraith. Ugh. The LAST thing this deck needs is more mulligans!

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In my build, Street Wraith replaced Seething Song, which doesn't really help with mulligans either. Notice Taco wrote "consistency that Song can't provide".

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Dragon Stompy relies heavily on its incredibly explosive aggressive starts to win matches when its disruption pieces can't.

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Sometimes, Seething Song is great. Other times, I wished it were a creature or disruption or land instead. Right now, based on my testing, I feel the deck needs less mana acceleration and more other stuff, which is what Street provides.

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Dragon Stompy ... can't afford to pursue such consistency at the expense of power.

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To me, Street Wraith increases the power of the deck by concentrating our best 56 cards.

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Originally Posted by jamest

In my build, Street Wraith replaced Seething Song, which doesn't really help with mulligans either. Notice Taco wrote "consistency that Song can't provide".

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That doesn't mean you shouldn't run an inconsistent card. If you're afraid to run inconsistent decks, you shouldn't be picking up anything that isn't named Threshold, much less any Chalice Aggro variant.

Black Lotus, for example, decreases the consistency of a deck. It does so because it provides a one-shot boost to your mana at the expense of a card. It will not kill your opponent, and it will not assist you in doing so beyond those three mana. So if your hand were 1 Land, 1 Lotus, and a hand full of things that cost 2 mana, you'd have a pretty explosive turn one, but if that turn one were stopped, you'd be screwed if you didn't draw another land. Consequently, if you had two land and a hand full of things you could cast for 2 mana, your hand would be more consistent.

Yet, you'd run Black Lotus if Legacy rules allowed it. You'd be insane not to. To further expound on this point, imagine something existed that cost :r:, was a Sorcery, and said "Flip a Coin. If you win the flip, you win the game." This is not a consistent card in the slightest, yet who on earth wouldn't run it? The power level if it succeeds is immense.

The point of this is that consistency does not equal power and should be weighed accordingly. Seething Song provides a level of power the deck doesn't have otherwise, from insane turn one Sloggers that singlehandedly roll Goblins, to turn two kills with Pit Dragons, to being able to drop a Chalice for 1 and a Threat in the same first turn, or whatever the case may be.

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Sometimes, Seething Song is great. Other times, I wished it were a creature or disruption or land instead. Right now, based on my testing, I feel the deck needs less mana acceleration and more other stuff, which is what Street provides.

To me, Street Wraith increases the power of the deck by concentrating our best 56 cards.

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Street Wraith provides none of what you say.

First of all, Street Wraith is not a free card. It's a card that costs 2 life. Your life total is a resource, one that you are already pushing the limits of exploiting with Ancient Tomb, which can deal 8+ damage to you in a single game. Additionally, many of your games come down to damage races. You can't afford the 2 life.

Secondly, you don't get to pick what other card you're drawing into. If you need a land, it'll get you one about one out of three times. If you need a threat, ditto, about one out of three. If you need a disruption piece, a little less.

Third, you lose the raw power of Song.

Fourth, and most importantly, Street Wraith impairs your mulliganing decisions, because you can't know what card it will provide until after you've made your decision.

Careful manipulation of your mana sources will ensure you're rarely awash with them. Seething Song and SSG both imprint on Chrome Mox in a pinch, and any mana source pitches to flip Gathan Raiders. I'm inclined strongly to believe that any problems you may encounter with having too much mana is based heavily on poor play choices in this regard. I find the deck to actually be mana short far more often than mana heavy. There will of course be games where you just get flooded with bad topdecks, but that's the price you pay for playing Chalice Aggro.

Chalice Aggro is incredible raw power at the expense of consistency. If you're going to sabotage the power level more than you increase the consistency, you might as well pick up Threshold.

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That doesn't mean you shouldn't run an inconsistent card...

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Your discussion about consistency vs power is interesting, but it wasn't my point. My point is that Seething Song and Street Wraith aren't in the deck to help with mulligan decisions. Neither card really helps accelerate you to 3 mana. (Obviously both can still serve a minor role i.e. Song can imprint onto Mox and Street can draw into something.) There is much discussion on the mulligan-hampering aspect of Street, yet Song hardly helps in that regard.

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Street Wraith provides none of what you say ... you don't get to pick what other card you're drawing into ... you can't know what card it will provide until after you've made your decision.

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Street Wraith is a card whose merits are probabilistic. For example, if your hand doesn't need more acceleration, would you rather have another piece of acceleration or a random card? Sure, Street might draw you into more acceleration, but, chances are, the random card is better than Song.

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I'm inclined strongly to believe that any problems you may encounter with having too much mana is based heavily on poor play choices in this regard...

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If you're going to sabotage the power level more than you increase the consistency, you might as well pick up Threshold.

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To me, the reason to play this deck does not lie in "consistency vs power". I can make the deck more consistent and still have a favorable matchup against Threshold.

Alright whats with this crap people are saying? Coming from someone who has played Dragon Stompy since Flash got banned, Thresh took over and MoTM was legal DON'T ever drop Seething Songs!!! Like Taco was saying, although Seething Song makes DS a little inconsistent the ridiculous power it gives the deck far outweighs it. Why would you ever want to drop the card that allows you to open the game up with a turn 1 opponent scoop?

okay thanks everyone I will switch to Crypt for now test it out and see how it does.

In my admittedly limited experience with the deck, seething song was actually underwhelming and I freuently boarded out one of them since I never wanted to see them in multiples. The one game I had two of them I dropped my hand turn 2 and then lost the game to a vindicate. While I hardly had the best threats to drop that turn (I dropped SSG, a morphed raiders, and a pithing needle on deed), I would've needed pit-dragon and morph to have a chance.

The power of this deck does not primarily lie in the threats but in the disruption pieces. While you may occasionally blow people out with pit-dragon or slogger, those games happen so infrequently that making deck building decisions in an attempt to maximize them will not yield the best results. More games are won by completely blowing your opponent out with some combination of trinispheres, chalices, and blood moon effects and attacking over four or so turns. As such, I feel seething song forces you into too many hands that simply plop down some stuff and asks your opponent, "Can you beat this?" These situations rarely work out well, especially in more powerful formats which contain much better defensive spells than closed formats like standard or block.

Saying this, I still feel Seething Song belongs in the deck because it aids in casting your larger spells, which is necessary sometimes to simply get a threat on the board. However, I truly feel that three is the correct number to play. Just because Chalice Aggro is inconsistent in general does not mean we should not aim to shore up this major weakness in the deck as best we can. If we didn't than there might as well be only 2 decks, the completely consistent but not as powerful (Threshold) versus the overly powerful but not consistent (Belcher I guess?).

I see a startling lack of Rite of Flame in some of the deck lists. I've searched the thread and I didn't find any significant discussion of it. I simply wonder why it hasn'e been discused/ if it has, why is it not used? The explosive quality of Rite of Flame could quite easily lead into some potentially incredible plays without impacting the consistancy too much.

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Originally Posted by raharu

I see a startling lack of Rite of Flame in some of the deck lists. I've searched the thread and I didn't find any significant discussion of it. I simply wonder why it hasn'e been discused/ if it has, why is it not used? The explosive quality of Rite of Flame could quite easily lead into some potentially incredible plays without impacting the consistancy too much.

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I think its primarily because of it being a one cc card for a usual gain of between 2 and 5 mana... when you think about it, if Trinisphere is in play... 5 mana for 3 cc is already achieved by Seething Song... however anything less than 5 mana for 3 cc, is really an underwhelming scenerio. Which I believe is probably why Rite of Flame is not run in this deck.

It doesn't play well with Chalice and doesn't proved too much of a boost. Simian Spirit Guide nets the same amount of mana, dodges Chalice, and can beat/block in a pinch. The deck doesn't need that many mana spells.

@raharu: Rite of Flame + Chalice = not a combo. And as Sanguine pointed out, Simian Spirit Guide nets you the same mana boost (Unless you have one in the yard), is uncounterable, and picks up equipment to beat face. Song is right in our curve and nets two mana instead of one, although Rite of Flame would help alleviate the amount of "Mountain, Go" plays we had to make. If the deck had another strong 2-drop besides Chalice (Turn one Jitte, while plausible, is not a power play) then Rite might be considered, but at the moment the deck lacks such a 2-drop.

@theross: What you say makes some sense. I'm not saying Seething Song should never be contemplated to be cut. I was merely making the point that consistency didn't equal power. As for 3 Seething Songs, I can see this. 11 Mountains / 3 Songs is a feasible concept (I assume this is what you're replacing the Song with? Or no?) However, I don't feel the same about hitting them in multiples. I don't always mind hitting them in multiples, as they imprint on Moxes, flip Raiders, pump Dragons and Sloggers, and sometimes I just flat out need seven mana to do something ridiculous. I tend to favor Jan's opinion in that Song is powerful.

Anyway, on another subject, after more and more testing, I'm coming to strongly believe that Trinisphere needs to move over to the sideboard. 20 threats has not been making the cut when I'm forced to occasionally pitch them or imprint them on Chrome Moxes for mana, and I'm losing far more games to Trinisphere than I'm winning with it. Also, Trinisphere's just giving purpose to all those nonbasic lands you happily turned into Mountains. Even against Threshold I find Trinisphere isn't wreaking as much havoc as Blood Moon and Chalice of the Void are.

I'm certain there are metagames where moving Trinisphere to the board would be a mistake, namely those inhabited by people named Bryant Cook. However, I feel that another threat would do more to pull its weight. At the moment I'm back to tinkering with Sulfur Elemental IRL, as I don't have my hands on a set of Maulers yet.

Really, I know that Chalice + Rite = fail, but Rite of Flame would increase the amount of opening plays where your deck simply gives you the god-hand and your deck goes BANG!!! Mountian-> RIte-> Rite is exactly as explosive as Seething Song, but without havind to pitch for Moxen... Worst comes to worst, it pitches to Raiders, Chrome Mox/ other discard outlets. Hmmm... I'm not so sure the deck as it stands could use it though... I'll keep it in mind.

EDIT: has anyone tried Mages' Contest for the TES/ Storm combo matchup? Just throwing it out there...

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Originally Posted by raharu

Really, I know that Chalice + Rite = fail, but Rite of Flame would increase the amount of opening plays where your deck simply gives you the god-hand and your deck goes BANG!!! Mountian-> RIte-> Rite is exactly as explosive as Seething Song, but without havind to pitch for Moxen... Worst comes to worst, it pitches to Raiders, Chrome Mox/ other discard outlets. Hmmm... I'm not so sure the deck as it stands could use it though... I'll keep it in mind.

EDIT: has anyone tried Mages' Contest for the TES/ Storm combo matchup? Just throwing it out there...

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Against almost decks in Legacy, Chalice@1 is more favorable to come first rather than :2: land: + Mox + Seething Song = Something. .even Trinisphere will be chosen against some decks. .because something can simply tricked with some 1cc spells as StP or the others and become a reckless move. .
Because of that reason, playing rite of flame before Chalice @1 / Sphere is rare and make rite won't be worthed enough to come. .and don't forget, mountain + only 1 rite of flame on the 1st turn almost nothing. .

Reply to-EDIT : This deck has a super powerful matchup against TES with Chalice and Trinisphere so it don't need another board. .

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Anyway, on another subject, after more and more testing, I'm coming to strongly believe that Trinisphere needs to move over to the sideboard. 20 threats has not been making the cut when I'm forced to occasionally pitch them or imprint them on Chrome Moxes for mana, and I'm losing far more games to Trinisphere than I'm winning with it. Also, Trinisphere's just giving purpose to all those nonbasic lands you happily turned into Mountains. Even against Threshold I find Trinisphere isn't wreaking as much havoc as Blood Moon and Chalice of the Void are.

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110% agree.

I'll test with 2-3 Pyrokinesis to help Hellbent and Mox Chrome (and remove chumpblockers to win faster)

Taco, what do you think of Pyrokinesis? thanks.

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Originally Posted by Rinello

Taco, what do you think of Pyrokinesis? thanks.

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My problem with Pyrokinesis is that roughly a third of the time varying on the number of Pyro/threats you actually run, you're pitching a threat to it, and in matches where I want to use Pyrokinesis to kill stuff, I generally want more threats. The exception to this rule would be creature-based combo decks like Cephalid Breakfast, where Pyrokinesis can serve as disruption. This (And Empty the Warrens) are a large part of why I run Pyroclasm over Pyrokinesis.

However, if there were no Trinispheres and possibly no Jittes main, I could see it being included in a 22-threat, 4 Moon, 4 Chalice, 4 Pyrokinesis shell. This would allow for decent threat consistency and a high red card count, as well as incredibly explosive Hellbent draw and the ability to pitch Pyrokinesis to other Pyrokinesis if necessary. I don't disqualify Pyrokinesis from being run because, much like Chalice and Moon, it's fantastic when it's good and terrible when it's bad.

The other problem with Pyrokinesis maindeck is that if your opponent doesn't have a target, the Hellbent boost it's supposed to provide is actually going to backfire on you, although I suppose you can always Pyrokinesis your own Gathan Raiders and have it live.

I see Jon Daily's list which bring him to the top 2 (or even 1st place) in latest tournament result. .
He brings Akroma, Angel of Fury. .what do you all think about this lady? Is she hot?

*congratulation Mr Daily for a great finish*

If you're flipping Akroma at 6 mana then something has probably gone wrong. This deck has trouble casting Arc-Slogger at 5 so this does not seem very good. Inconsistency is the main problem we are trying to work out in the deck currently and adding Akroma merely exacerbates that problem.

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Originally Posted by moOnsteak

I see Jon Daily's list which bring him to the top 2 (or even 1st place) in latest tournament result. .
He brings Akroma, Angel of Fury. .what do you all think about this lady? Is she hot?

*congratulation Mr Daily for a great finish*

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does anyone have a deck list for this akroma using dragon stompy deck? I have a friend who uses akroma in his deck list and I am potentially going to be getting that deck off of him, but I forgot to ask him for the deck list, so I was hoping to see a similar deck list...

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

My problem with Pyrokinesis is that roughly a third of the time varying on the number of Pyro/threats you actually run, you're pitching a threat to it, and in matches where I want to use Pyrokinesis to kill stuff, I generally want more threats. The exception to this rule would be creature-based combo decks like Cephalid Breakfast, where Pyrokinesis can serve as disruption. This (And Empty the Warrens) are a large part of why I run Pyroclasm over Pyrokinesis.

However, if there were no Trinispheres and possibly no Jittes main, I could see it being included in a 22-threat, 4 Moon, 4 Chalice, 4 Pyrokinesis shell. This would allow for decent threat consistency and a high red card count, as well as incredibly explosive Hellbent draw and the ability to pitch Pyrokinesis to other Pyrokinesis if necessary. I don't disqualify Pyrokinesis from being run because, much like Chalice and Moon, it's fantastic when it's good and terrible when it's bad.

The other problem with Pyrokinesis maindeck is that if your opponent doesn't have a target, the Hellbent boost it's supposed to provide is actually going to backfire on you, although I suppose you can always Pyrokinesis your own Gathan Raiders and have it live.

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Thanks for sharing.
I think that this deck is very strong,
but at the moment he has some problem with:

-chrome mox pitch
-few equipment
-answers with stuff on the board (anything on board and protected creatures)

Also I guess Pyroclasm will fit better in this deck,
as it can "Leave more room for the big ones to fight in, you know." and is very good against an early mongoose, mother of runes, cephalid/ichorid combo_guys, specter and confidant (and you can cast it easy or imprint it withour regret).

Again, thanks!
(maybe an updated Taco_Dec would be great :tongue: )

Aaaaactually, I'm not all that against Akroma, Angel of Fury. I can honestly say I haven't tried it, but I think I'm going to. I don't know what slot it would take except for the Sulfur Elemental / Taurean Mauler slot, and I don't know that it's better than either one, but let's look at this for a minute.

1. It Morphs. Meaning it's playable for :3:. So it won't clog up your hand.
2. It's Red. Meaning it pitches to Chrome Mox and Pyrokinesis.
3. If you manage to flip the thing, it's going to slaughter the holy crap out of people.
4. There is immense potential to swing with it under the bluff that it's a Gathan Raiders, and your opponent is forced to play like the swinging card IS Gathan Raiders. This can be tremendously to your advantage.

A balanced list I might suggest would be.

10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Arc-Slogger
2 Akroma, Angel of Fury

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Blood Moon
3 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

I plan to play Dragon Stompy in a tournament in about two hours, so I might see if I can snag some Red Akromas somewhere along the line and give it a whirl.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

Aaaaactually, I'm not all that against Akroma, Angel of Fury. I can honestly say I haven't tried it, but I think I'm going to. I don't know what slot it would take except for the Sulfur Elemental / Taurean Mauler slot, and I don't know that it's better than either one, but let's look at this for a minute.

1. It Morphs. Meaning it's playable for :3:. So it won't clog up your hand.
2. It's Red. Meaning it pitches to Chrome Mox and Pyrokinesis.
3. If you manage to flip the thing, it's going to slaughter the holy crap out of people.
4. There is immense potential to swing with it under the bluff that it's a Gathan Raiders, and your opponent is forced to play like the swinging card IS Gathan Raiders. This can be tremendously to your advantage.

A balanced list I might suggest would be.

10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Arc-Slogger
2 Akroma, Angel of Fury

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Blood Moon
3 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

I plan to play Dragon Stompy in a tournament in about two hours, so I might see if I can snag some Red Akromas somewhere along the line and give it a whirl.

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The version I saw of it... I think looked more like the following:

// Lands
10 [OD] Mountain (4)
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors

// Creatures
2 [PLC] Akroma, Angel of Fury
3 [MR] Arc-Slogger
4 [FUT] Gathan Raiders
4 [DIS] Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide

// Spells
4 [9E] Seething Song
3 [8E] Blood Moon
3 [DS] Trinisphere
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [MR] Chrome Mox

But I can't be 100% certain as I didn't ask what his deck list was... all I know is it covered all the basic card peices of a Dragon Stompy list.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

Taco's List

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Akroma does seem pretty badass and I will try it out. I would cut a Slogger. I love the card, but the curve is high and I think some Sulfur Elementals will be good.

10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Gathan Raiders
2 Sulfur Elementals (Mauler)
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
3 Arc-Slogger
2 Akroma, Angel of Fury

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Blood Moon
3 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

SB
3 Pyroclasm
1 Earthquake
4 Trinisphere
4 Winter Orb
3 Tormod's Crypt

been testing akroma on mws, many times i had to go tomb + city + mox + mountain + ssg to unmorph, and loosing 3 life. other times it just sat there or morphed on the table. but if its morphed on the table and the opponent has a tombstalker or something, it can be your only hope :) so u wish for a land/song.
but without songs this card is unplayable imo, basicly the only thing that is runned in legacy that kills it is diabolic edict/smallpox/innocent blood

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Originally Posted by Jak.

SB
3 Pyroclasm
1 Earthquake
4 Trinisphere
4 Winter Orb
3 Tormod's Crypt

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and Winter Orb is there for. . .??

I think 1 Akroma is enough or maybe more than enough. .
But I want to see for what kind decks (blue??) she was prepared. .

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Originally Posted by moOnsteak

and Winter Orb is there for. . .??

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I would assume the Landstill match up. It severely slows them down and limits their ability to answer your threats.

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Originally Posted by moOnsteak

and Winter Orb is there for. . .??

I think 1 Akroma is enough or maybe more than enough. .
But I want to see for what kind decks (blue??) she was prepared. .

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Landstill, Wombat, Truffle Shuffle, etc. I like being able to win the control MU easily. They may change to needles but WOrbs have been good.

Is there any particular reason why people are cutting Trinispheres from the maindeck? It steals so many games. Additionally, it's effective against every deck except Lands, unlike Blood Moon which can be dead at times. I guess it's a meta call?

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Originally Posted by b4r0n

Is there any particular reason why people are cutting Trinispheres from the maindeck? It steals so many games. Additionally, it's effective against every deck except Lands, unlike Blood Moon which can be dead at times. I guess it's a meta call?

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Trinisphere is not as crippling as Blood Moon. A resolved Moon against Landstill is basically GG because they can't cast anything, no matter what. Trinisphere just slows them down. However, if your meta consists of a lot of mono-colored decks, then maybe limit the number of Moons.

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Originally Posted by Jak.

Trinisphere is not as crippling as Blood Moon. A resolved Moon against Landstill is basically GG because they can't cast anything, no matter what. Trinisphere just slows them down. However, if your meta consists of a lot of mono-colored decks, then maybe limit the number of Moons.

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Expanding further on this, without an LD compliment (like stax), 3sphere won't stop people from playing spells, making it more of a speed bump than a lock component. There are some match-ups when it feels almost useless (like goyf sligh and goblins [which can easily destroy it and/or play around it]), and others when it rocks socks (like ichorid and TES [where it actually does stop them from casting spells]).

I still main-deck 3 simply because there currently isn't anything (be it disruption, fattie, or equipment) at the same mana cost, that has as much impact on the game. 3sphere, if nothing else, has almost no impact on your ability to cast spells, and some impact against most everything else.

Alright, early testing shows that Akroma, Angel of Fury is pretty badass in this deck and might well be better than both Sulfur Elemental and Taurean Mauler. Alternately, I found that replacing Trinisphere with more threats made the deck do exceptionally well. Despite lacking enough people for a tournament, I went 13-1 in games today, and the loss was from Dragon Stompy just screwing itself over.

The list I ran was a standard 10/4/4/4/4 Manabase, the base 20 threats, 4 Moon, 4 Chalice, 2 Jitte, 2 Akroma, and 2 Sulfur. 24 threats may seem high, but it's nice. Consistently topdecking threats allowed me to win three games after initial explosive assaults weren't enough to get the job done. I didn't miss Trinisphere at all and I really don't think it has a place in the maindeck if there aren't a significant number of decks in your metagame that are crippled by it. It's rarely enough to win a game by itself, it's a crappy topdeck, and it messes up your Chrome Moxes something fierce.

Akroma's best moment was turn one Tomb, Mox, Morph, go. Next turn, City, Seething Song, Morph, Pump, swing for 7. My opponent scooped with useless Vindicates not being able to help.

The thing about Akroma was, she wasn't bad when I couldn't flip her. I think I saw her maybe a total of six or seven times today, and I was never sorry to see her. Morphed creatures draw any and all available removal because people fear Gathan Raiders, and I was able to bluff my way through an attack with this. It helped that she was red, as I did imprint her on a Mox one game today, and I definitely never had any difficulties casting her facedown whatsoever.

Only once did I see her and wish she was a Sulfur Elemental (To throw down in front of an attacking Confidant as a trap), but only twice did it make a significant difference that she was Akroma and not the Sulfur Elemental. So this is a hard call. Both were good to me all day. Akroma's strong, though.

After your Akroma testing. .in your opinion. .
how many 'she' would go into main deck?
1 or 2 or 3? *I believe it won't be 4*
Have a moment to hard casting her?

Max of 2. Even though her morph is 6, it's still too high to flip her consistently.

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Alright, early testing shows that Akroma, Angel of Fury is pretty badass in this deck and might well be better than both Sulfur Elemental and Taurean Mauler.

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WHO_HOOOO!! I knew it! :smile:
(also I really hate Mauler..slow useless guy in this deck IMHO )

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The list I ran was a standard 10/4/4/4/4 Manabase, the base 20 threats, 4 Moon, 4 Chalice, 2 Jitte, 2 Akroma, and 2 Sulfur.

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Just curious:
Do you miss SoF&I and a 3rd Jitte?
Do you consider Simian Spirt Guide a threat? Do you cast it every now and then?

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I didn't miss Trinisphere at all and I really don't think it has a place in the maindeck if there aren't a significant number of decks in your metagame that are crippled by it. It's rarely enough to win a game by itself, it's a crappy topdeck, and it messes up your Chrome Moxes something fierce.

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120% agree.
When I wanted to board in Pyrokinesis, I was really worried about mox chrome/red pitch.
I think Akroma is a good answer, also because Trinisphere is just like putting a finger into your opponent's eye while your "Blood_Void Death Combo Lock From Hell" chokes him: fun, but redundant.

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Morphed creatures draw any and all available removal because people fear Gathan Raiders, and I was able to bluff my way through an attack with this. It helped that she was red, as I did imprint her on a Mox one game today, and I definitely never had any difficulties casting her facedown whatsoever.

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Bluff is very good.
In a tournament sometimes you can just win by stressing an overcautious opponent :laugh:

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Only once did I see her and wish she was a Sulfur Elemental (To throw down in front of an attacking Confidant as a trap), but only twice did it make a significant difference that she was Akroma and not the Sulfur Elemental. So this is a hard call. Both were good to me all day. Akroma's strong, though.

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So you're saying that a 2/2 split Akroma/Sulfur Elemental would be perfect?
'Cause you know, this is tempty.. I'm just not sure about what to do with Jitte and SoF&I......... :rolleyes:

Drawing into several trinisphere is a pain, but the first is rarely bad, as being a protection against FoW and played early it's really a good timewalk. Thus, why not keep 2 MD and add only 2 more threats (Akroma for instance) ?