Your deck has 56 cards. What are you missing? 4 Tops?
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Your deck has 56 cards. What are you missing? 4 Tops?
Don't know what "ballsy" mean, hope it's something cool :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
I started with 4 SW too, then dropped 1 for 4th Ponder and never got back. Right now I'm testing -3rd SW +1 LDV. I like LDV but I'm still unsure (not much testing time lately.
With the list I'm running I cannot use doomsday to its full potential (going hellbent IT searching it with SDT on table). Relying on Mystical for DD+ Brainstorm/ponder/SW can be good, but still don't know if it's worth it in the SDT less list. I'll try it in place of an IGG.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
The outs I'm playing to MD graveyard hate are 2xTendrils plan, SW/Confidant beatdown plan (+ mini tendrils), Wipe Away. Note there are also many times when you can just beat the opponent with the cards you have in hand using IT chains or relying on the opponent life loss.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
It's an Aggro-Oriented meta (Goblins, Goyf Sligh, Burn), with a "nice" amount of thresh (low number of CB) and black disruption based decks. That's why I'm still playing Confidant in the board. There's also some Artifact disruption based decks, mainly Stax.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
I meant over, not of. Posting at 12 at night ftl. Massacre seems better than Clasm in almost every situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by EmidIn
I've also come to the conclusion that an LDV/Mystical Split is the way to go, but I'm still adjusting my numbers. The raw power of LDV is just undeniable, and the card selection it offers is much greater than that of Mystical Tutor.
Ballsy, as defined by Urbandictionary.com:
1. Something which takes balls aka courage to do
2. An object which attains a ball form
3. A response when no other response is available
4. A lesser degree of shady
5. Not quite though
2x IGG is useful only against discard based decks like Pikula or when you can start the combo with LED, LED, IT -> IGG -> IT, LED, LED -> IGG -> ...
With only 1 IGG you can do only 9 storm count, but often your opponent is already at 18 lifes or you can cast for example also a Petal. Only 2 times (1 in tournament -.-) I need a second IGG in my deck in all matches I play with this deck (millions?).
You can cut the second IGG for a Doomsday. You can't search Doomsday with IT after you brake LED without SDT, but you can search it with mystical or LDV, then you have Ponder/Brainstorm/SW to take the draw4 or LED, LED Brainstorm (in the case you cast Brainstorm). Anyway usually I don't search Doomsday with IT after I brake LED because in this case often I have all the mana I need to do a loop of IGG ftw (obv if there is some graveyard hate into play/opponent's hand I choose the way of Doomsday).
About LDV it's a good idea. I still never test it. I have a vacant slot in maindeck so I can fix with this.
About advantages /disavantages:
I like especially that you can Serenity or LED: it's a tutor that can exit from chalice at 1 that is the most used hate against this deck (before chalice at 2 a player often plays chalice at 1 and then a chalice at 0; we can't consider the fact that LDV goes under chalice at CC2 a real disavantage, otherwise nobody plays Serenity, E.Truth,...).
I don't like especially that you need black mana early to cast it. Black mana it's the last mana I fetch for it (sometimes all I need it's only a Petal and island & plains into play)
In any case I think I never play more than 5 tutors that give cards disavantage + there is Doomsday that gives cards disavantage).
if you play in a meta like this one I prefer +1 E.Truth -1 Wipe Away and a Doomsday maindeck that can round on graveyard hate usually decks like Goblins, Burn, black disruption black decks play in g2/3.Quote:
It's an Aggro-Oriented meta (Goblins, Goyf Sligh, Burn), with a "nice" amount of thresh (low number of CB) and black disruption based decks. That's why I'm still playing Confidant in the board. There's also some Artifact disruption based decks, mainly Stax.
@Greeone: do you have a nick on tipo1.it?
If the only way I can use Doomsday is Mystical/LDV into it, I could just tutor for bounce and bounce the graveyard hate. I'm not saying that Doomsday is unuseful in this situation, but i have to ponder if it's better than any other card in its slot (SW,LDV,IGG,Extirpate, Draw4 comes to mind).Quote:
Originally Posted by jegger
Doomsday is good almost like IGG in building up storm to fight life gain, as a simple stack like this:
LED
LED
IT
IGG
Tendrils
builds 11 storm, counting only the D.Rit into Doomsday + Brainstorm.
It's sure as hell I'm in love with Doomsday. I simply have a thing for that card. I'll try to fit it into the deck, but I want to be sure I'm not playing any suboptimal card in my 75.
The great advantages Mystical has over LDV (just for comparison) are the better ability to shuffle a brainstorm on turn 1 (subsequently the ability to build more turn 2 kill) and the fact that you can blindly Mystical into Wipe Away against CB decks on turn 1, before CB lands.Quote:
Originally Posted by jegger
If i could, I'd like to play with 4 Mystical+1LDV on G1 and 3 Mystical+2LDV on G2 and G3.
I'm with you on the max 5 tutors that build card disadvantage.
I'm usually confortable with english sites, but I subscribed today with GreenOne as nickname. It's good to see some italian good players around there!Quote:
Originally Posted by jegger
Jegger, I wonder how can you find a free slot in the MD :wink: How does your list look like?
With the green splash for Grips, why do you still play Wipe Away Main and no Grip?
Which card do you bounce g1, that is no Artifact or Enchantment?
Nobody plays Mage or Teeg MD and if anyone do for Teeg you have your DD->Freeze plan and if they play Mage they normally name Deed, Goyf or something.
Other than tutoring for LED and stacking the deck, Vault's biggest plus is that it doesn't reveal the card to your opponent. I think once you go 4 Vaults and 0 M.Tutors you wont go back to M.Tutor, Vault is the card that guarantees you the 3rd turn win every time you cast it. The deck has so many 1 drops that it's 2cc really isn't a problem, hell it's even advantageous under Counterbalance.
I use Wipe Away to hit untapped lands EOT (taking critical colored mana from opponents) and as a time walk quite a bit hitting an attacker to buy me an extra untap step. Other than bouncing Goyfs and Lands, the only thing I can think of off hand was a True Believer that someone randomly played against me. White creatures could be a problem, but I'm probably willing to accept my losses to Death & Taxes if it somehow see it in a tournament.Quote:
Originally Posted by TeKo
LDV wasn't really all that impressive given that I needed to fetch black mana for it. It was also Spell Snared a lot causing my Thrash matchup to plummet. Swamp is terrible for anything other than winning the game, and I found myself losing to Wasteland quite a bit when I had to find an Underground Sea or a Scrubland before I normally would. I don't think I'd play any more than 1 in my 17 land build, and I'm not sure that I'd play any in a more land constricted build where Wasteland can hurt even more.
Getting Lim Dul's Vault Spell Snared is like Christmas, if people are aiming their counters at your top deck tutors they aren't aiming their counters at your Infernal Tutor.
IDK about Wasteland, I've never had colored mana issues against Goblins, I guess it'd be a pain in the ass against Tempo Threshold tho'.
Only jackasses and desperate people get their Infernal Tutors Spell Snared. I rarely played LDV when I had Chant protection because it was always eating my black source on the combo turn. I get to play Mystical because blue mana is a dime a dozen and mostly worthless while comboing.Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
Wasteland is hardest against the thresh decks. Tempo Threshold goes downhill quickly with LDV because you need to get wasteable mana and give them spell snare targets. If tempo thresh is played in your area, LDV would be definitely unplayable.Quote:
IDK about Wasteland, I've never had colored mana issues against Goblins, I guess it'd be a pain in the ass against Tempo Threshold tho'.
I've been getting throttled by Ichorid...my own build, but it's a buddy's deck. His most impressive play was a mulligan down to 6, winning turn 1 on the draw through a chant. That's all I had. To make matters worse, he swung for 36...The only thing that would have saved me was a petal for the kicker on chant and not chanting until after he dreaded back his FKZ. Furthermore, after boarding, I don't know what to 'Pate, or even what else to board in besides Echoing Truth. Extirpating Dredgers is damn near pointless. They shrug and use other ones. Hitting Ichorid is dumb because Ichorid isn't even part of the combo; hence unnecessary against me. I playtested yesterday for 10 hours against Ichorid, and I must say it looks bleak, unless I'm a total retard and missed something quite obvious. Chant's effect is quite minimal against them because in addition to dredging during their upkeep, or timewalking them 2 times with chant (which unless your draw is right stops you from sculpting your hand fast enough to go off before running out of chant effects and getting maulled) on the draw, I daresay it's nigh unwinnable unless you get Echoing Truth down. However, Tutoring into an echoing Truth turn 1 leaves them open to combo off (with them on the play) without a second thought turn 2.
On to the topics at hand, I've been disappointed by Trip Grips, a set of Serenity and 2x 'pates vs. CB. I've been shown the truth in the brutality of CB. I recant my statement that we have a decent game against it. Boarding in 9 cards in high multiples really clogs up my list, and there's not much I can do about it. I'm thinking of dropping Serenity down to 3 and upping grips to 4. This way, I can just board in 4x Grips against CB and leave the 3x Serenity in the board. They are less useful anyway, as CB reveals 2 WAY more than 3. Serenity isn't even completely safe agaisnt Stax, but in conjunction with Grips, it becomes much more effective. Bounce has become less effective in my opinion. I only run 1x Wipe Away in my 75. I keep rushing river and E. Truth for obvious reasons, but Wipe Away has become pretty heavy to cast. I'm thinking of dropping a Scrub for either a Tundra or a Sea, but I can't figure out which I'd rather have. Also, I may go up to 16 lands, as I find myself needing more lands vs. decks I can or need to play a tad bit more conservatively against.
I'm beginning to think that if I want to be able to beat CB, I'm gonna have to go back to the red splash and put in REBs/Pyroblasts instead. They are worse all-around, but I'm not seeing any other options.
Pce,
--DC
How many lands are you running? If Scrubland is the only black source you can fetch with Flooded Strand besides the first Underground Sea, then don't replace it with a Tundra.
If he did that then you frankly suck as a player. You chant in response to Narcomoeba triggering the first time at worst. You can actually hold chant until they have critical mass to use Dread Return (meaning until they would be able to get 3 critters so, the third Narcomoeba with 1 bridge, the 2nd Narcomoeba with 2 bridges and a therapy, etc).Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
Bridge from BelowQuote:
Furthermore, after boarding, I don't know what to 'Pate
Dread Return
Ichorid
Narcmoeba
Cabal Therapy
It depends on the situation, but it'd be highly unlikely I'd ever extirpate anything else.
I've found that 3 Grips, up to 2 Wipe Away, 3 Extirpate has been the perfect amount to consistently beat CB with my build.
Yeah, you're right. I edited it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaiminho
Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
I don't think it is very wise to make fun of players when your advocating a build that is very bad in terms of being a combo deck.
First, I don't understand how you can cut lotus petal in a combo deck and have people take your seriously.
Second, you added sensei's divining top into the deck which just slow the deck down so much, its really hard for me to understand how this deck is so much better than Iggy Pop. Congrads on making the deck able to lose to aggressive decks now.
Third, seriously why are you playing Doomsday. I may not understand some of your other selections, but this card is complete garbage.
GTFO. No, really. All the changes above have been tested and have improved the deck. Petal was cut for better cards, top is slower but makes the deck more consistent and Doomday allows for plenty of piles that win without using the graveyard.Quote:
Originally Posted by nickrit2000
Oh thank God someone else was thinking this also, when I first saw 0/1 Lotus Petals a huge flag went up, and then i saw SDT and Doomsday and was like...this deck cant win one turn 1/2 without drawing the perfect, why not just play ANY other combo deck?Quote:
Originally Posted by nickrit2000
Dont be so harsh, I dont see how using the GY slower than Ichorid does, or using Storm slower than TES does is good, either. Being able to win on turn 5 in 2 ways is not better than consistently ending the game on turn 1-2.Quote:
Originally Posted by WiLdFiRe
Seriously, if you don't know what you are talking about, don't even bother. People should come here to post and help to improve the deck, not bash it do death. All changes made so far are for making this deck each time better, not worse, so follow the deck's flow of changes so you can understand things first.
While I don't really agree with EmidIns changes, it annoys me that random people are barging into this thread and going "LOL THAT DECK SUX BCAUSE IT ISNT NORMAL!1!!" That doesn't mean shit. Just because we've been playing a card forever, doesn't mean it's the correct card to play. This deck is built to win in 5 ways on turn 4, yeah, and that's not so strong. What's strong is you have a much better chance of doing it through protection than TES does. For me, it's pick your poison - win before your opponents have protection, or win through it.
You should frankly read why I made fun of him (hint: it's quoted in my post). He lost to being an abysmal player. I have no sympathy for people who lose to obvious situations then make posts about the matchup not being good. I'd rather have fewer good players than more bad players.Quote:
Originally Posted by nickrit2000
I don't understand why you think Lotus Petal is required. FT requires three types of mana in completely different phases of the game. In the first phase, the setup phase, it requires blue mana. We need lots of blue mana to cycle through cantrips and tutors to sculpt our perfect hand. The next phase, the protection phase, requires white mana and sometimes black mana. Here you want to resolve a Chant effect. The final phase is the combo phase, where you generally only need a single black mana to start a ritual chain to win the game. If you look at how the deck casts spells, you'll notice that it wants a lot of blue mana, a moderate amount of white mana, and one black mana. What about this makes Lotus Petal necessary? Lotus Petal's sole function in combo is to accelerate your initial mana sources before you can play the appropriate amount of lands. If you are spending your first 1-2 turns playing land and cantrips, what does Lotus Petal give you? You enter the protection phase with WWB. This is enough mana to get you to the combo phase. You enter the combo phase with your black mana. You now win the game.Quote:
First, I don't understand how you can cut lotus petal in a combo deck and have people take your seriously.
Lotus Petal is only required if you want to win on turn 1 or turn 2 because you don't have lands. The issue is that playing on turn 1 and 2, you turn your opponent's effective hard counters for your spells from 4 to 8 in your problem matchup. Why would you want to make your opponent's cards better? I certainly don't. I also don't enjoy the crapshoot of running my single Chant into Daze and continuing to combo knowing I could lose to a second Daze, Spell Snare, Force of Will, or a Stifle effect. If I wanted to roll the dice, I'd play SI or Belcher.
I've yet to run into a compelling reason why I SHOULD include the card. I'd be really interested in hearing it. Everyone else is doing it and Iggy Pop always ran it aren't so compelling to me.
Congrats on being unable to properly play Sensei's Divining Top. This still has a faster goldfish than Iggy Pop while doing it with more protection and ignoring graveyard hate. Those are pretty big wins. If you're losing to aggressive decks you simply need to learn how to play. Failure to goldfish with light resistance by turn 3 is an indication of either extremely poor decision making or extremely poor drawing. Given that I've played hundred of games against aggro and been significantly screwed on draws less than 20 times, I would heavily learn towards inexperience with the deck causing poor decisions as the reason you're not getting there. I suggest more goldfishing, or perhaps presenting play situations so I can help fix your decision making.Quote:
Second, you added sensei's divining top into the deck which just slow the deck down so much, its really hard for me to understand how this deck is so much better than Iggy Pop. Congrads on making the deck able to lose to aggressive decks now.
This makes me think you have no idea how to play combo at all. If you can't see the obvious interactions in the deck with Doomsday, you might want to reexamine what each card in the deck does. It ignores graveyard hate, provides more storm than IGG, doesn't recur enemy hate, increases goldfish speed, and allows you to play around miscellaneous hate like Chalices. The only reason I can come up with for not playing Doomsday is failure to comprehend the Doomsday stacks, which is not really my problem. The card doesn't actually have any downsides as far as I can tell, outside of not being available in Japanese foil.Quote:
Third, seriously why are you playing Doomsday. I may not understand some of your other selections, but this card is complete garbage.
When you win with this deck you do so with extreme certainty. There is no interaction in the game at all. Your opponent has cards, but they are meaningless. There is no "hope he doesn't have double force", "counter + crypt and I'm screwed", or "random meddling mage, gg". You don't look at a Trinisphere or Chalice and say gg. The deck is designed to be inevitable against hate while still having a faster goldfish than any aggro deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bovinous
As far as needing a perfect draw to win on turn 2, it does it about 20% of the time. I'd be extremely surprised if those hands are considered perfect draws.
Top, Ritual, Mystical Tutor, LED, Land, Land is a turn 2 kill in a goldfish. That's hardly a perfect hand. There are a ton of variations of this, and this is just a Doomsday kill.
Ok, first, I'd like to say that while I agree with almost ALL of what you say, Brandon, your arrogance astounds me. Well, it would, but it's so abundant that I've become accustomed to it, even expectant of it. Secondly, I posted that NOT for your "sympathy", but for advice. Clearly you can't see respect even when it kicks you in the nuts.Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
I might add that (and check this page and last, it'll confirm it) That I stayed up for quite some time (40+ hours) at the time of my playtesting (the final 10 hours of my time awake, the other 30 were spent on going to class and writing a paper). It's finals week and I'm still allowing myself to have a bit of fun, to the shegrin of my finals scores I'm sure. Play mistakes happen. You make them too. Having said that, I wasn't thinking he'd have a turn 1 kill, as he goldfishes @ 80% wins on turn 2. I've never had a game against him last longer than 3 turns when I was playing FT. In fact, I've had quite a bit more luck beating him with UGr Sun Tower.
I'd like to see your most recent build/what you are playing now, as I'm sure most of us would.
Anyway, no hard feelings, Emidln, but I would take some time to reflect on your attitude. Karma can really be a bitch.
Pce,
--DC
Yes, and keep up the good work Brandon. (absolutely no hint of sarcasm intended.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
I'd appreciate a bit of input on the deck, not blatant sucking up.Quote:
Originally Posted by deviant
Pce,
--DC
So you really have problems with the Ichorid Matchup? I just did a few testing games against it, but it has never been a problem so I didn't even think about doing a lot of testing. The only games you lose to Ichorid should be preboard if you don't have chant on turn 1 and they kill you, or if they make a huge Therapy action. And how often does it actually happen that Ichorid comboes out on turn 1? I think that's just in very few games. Postboard you usually have 3 Pates and 4 Chants to stop them, which should be enough to keep them from winning until you can combo. The point is, when you don't have to worry 'bout protection, you can tutor straight for your combo, and this deck's goldfish still is damn fast.
The main advantages in running both SW and Petal are that you can play 2 cantrips on turn 1 and combo off turn 2 using threshed Cabal Rituals. It helps in having the mana to cast a Chant on turn 2 and then win protected. It also helps in going Hellbent IT without a LED. It happens quite often, at least to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
This by no means should be interpreted (sp?) as the SW+Petal version is better. I see the 2 versions as completely different decks.
The SW+Petal one is trying to combo faster, with a lighter mana base and have some solutions to hate coming in, and the possibility to race it. It's also more grave dependant. The deck have a good combo matchup thanks to it's speed and ability to find chant fast. It's inability to make every land drop and sculpt his hand with SDT makes a worse matchup against Landstill.
The SDT+ more lands slightly worsens the Aggro matchup due to a slower goldfish and more "pay half your life" cards. The aggro matchup is not unfair, but still one sided.
The deck aims at having a protected win every game, and a solution to hate of any kind. Hate is not raced, but it's fought. This explains the Krosan Grips, the Extirpate, the Doomsday and the Brain Freeze.
Sure, the deck is not the fastest combo, it has somewhat the role Solidarity had once: the slowest combo deck that could fight better against counterwalls and permanent based hate. Solidarity could race aggro pretty well and it won on turn 4 usually, for a turn 3 you needed a very good hand. Goblins and Aggro goldfish has not increased, and this deck wins AT LEAST half a turn faster than solidarity.
Slowing down the deck will probably mess with the faster combo matchup, but I didn't test it. It's sure the deck has lost the turn 1 cantrip+petal to have an "active" Orim faster. It has also lost the turn 1 Land, Petal, Mystical ->Orim, SW play.
I'm playing both the versions right now and I can say that they both have advantages and disadvantages. They play in a dfferent way too. And maybe because i first started with the SW+Petal (but i doubt it) but the SDT version is really much more difficult to play, as it allows many more plays and small decisions during the game.
@Doomsday. The card is sick in the SDT version as it allows to play around graveyard hate, meddling mage, gaddock, and recurring threats from the graveyard without the need to tutor for bounce. I second anyone that if you tested it and found it just bad you can't see the stacks that can be built. Try looking in the last 3-4 pages, the discussion on some of them is near and can help as example. Ask emidln for some matches and he'll crush you with Doomsday.Quote:
Originally Posted by nickrit2000
A list up to 4 days ago can be found on the TES vs FT thread here:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
Here's the list:
Fetchland Tendrils (FT)
Played by Emidln
Lands
4 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Island
Spells
1 Wipe Away
1 Cruel Bargain
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Orim's Chant
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
1 Lotus Petal
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Brain Freeze
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Doomsday
1 Extirpate
Sideboard:
SB: 1 Wipe Away
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Rushing River
SB: 4 Serenity
SB: 2 Abeyance
SB: 1 Sudden Death
I'm trying 2 decks: one with and one without SDT.Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenOne
Anyway they are standard decklists, in the version with SDT I have a slot free because I use 3 SDT and not 4. Both the versions use 4 Petal maindeck.
I continue to prefer the version without SDT that is more slim and linear to play.
With the version with SDT often I miss turns to play sensei paying 1 for revealing cantrip playing cantrip and so on...and I have a considerable decrease of turn 2 kill. Because I reach the idea that 10-11 cantrip (brainstorm, ponder, sensei) are too much, I want to try for a while a version without ponder and with brainstorm/sensei/SW.
In the version without SDT it's also more easy to side in/out because in every game except combo I can side out SW.
Yeah, in the SDT version I uually side out Brain Freeze, but I'm always undecided in what other to take out.Quote:
Originally Posted by jegger
I guess the 4 petals in the SDT version are played instead of lands. Didn't you find top less exciting with less lands to work with?
I want to adress this post to all the people who are saying that adding SDT over SW is bad, cutting Petals is bad, and in general that slowing down is a bad thing, because now you only get to combo on turn 1 10% of the time rather than 20%.
Allow me to let you in on a little secret: This deck isn't combo. Decks like TES, Belcher and Ichorid are combo. This deck is combo-control, which is at the absolute top of the foodchain in terms of archetypes (though not nessicarily this build, but it's getting close).
Unlike more traditional combo style decks like Ichorid and Belcher, which pray their opponent doesn't open with Extirpate or Force of Will respectively (or in the case of TES, double counter), these archetypes are able to mostly ignore their opponents. They have the unmatched ability to constantly find protection and answers when they need it. When so much as 1 piece of this protection slips through the opponents counterwall, it's GG for them. Imagine ******** resolving Force of Will and then winning on the spot, except now they also run 8 tutors to find or find multiples of their protection.
The combo element of these decks allow the pilot to goldfish aggro decks before they even get you in the danger zone, while the control element allows for a lategame traditional combo decks normally lack. Also, I'd like to add that it really doesn't matter if you kill you opponent on turn 2 or on turn 15, a win is a win.
Now, all of these points are of course very obvious, but I get the idea some people forget about them when commenting on Fetchland Tendrils.
Sure, the deck is slower than TES. It still goldfishes consistently with or without protection by turn 4, which should be about a full turn faster than any aggro deck. Sure, Goblins could get the extreme nuts and win on turn 3, at a time when you don't have Chant to timewalk them. However, the odds of you comboing faster than turn 4 are a lot bigger than theirs.
In exchange for this mostly irrelavent loss in speed, the deck get's the ability to fight and win the lategame versus Landstill, ********, Stax, and mostly anything else bluebased. This is something that traditional combo decks are really lacking. Sure, TES can also beat those decks, as can Belcher. But what happens when you try to race them, you fail, and are left in topdeck mode? You pray your opponent doesnt draw more counters, but he will. The second try ends just the same, and eventually that Goyf or Factory will get you down. The decks lack the insane search you get from 11 cantrips and 8 tutors, along with 6 protection spells. And that's just preboard.
To finish up, I'd like to add this: If with the current build you cannot beat aggro, speed up your goldfish or find another deck to play. Go play Belcher, and lose to anything bluebased you'll face in a tournament. Sure, the deck is hard to play. What did you expect, with the insane decision tree coming from all those cantrips and tutors. You go play a fast combo deck, while I'm off to crush ******** once again.
Some of these points are valid and many others not, my question is what exactly are you controlling as combo-control?
Control is in this deck not as a defensive measure, but as an offensive measure. As strange as that may sound, it's the role cantrips, Top, bounce, Chant and Extirpate have in this deck. Of these, only Chant and maybe Extirpate can be played defensively. In general, control in this deck is not used to help you not die, so you can win later, but it helps you win right through your opponent's defenses.
Summarizing: we control our opponent's control cards.
By this definition, TES is a control deck. Brainstorm, Ponder, Draw 4's, Vexing Shusher, Pyroblast and Chant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaiminho
Yeah, I don't like "combo-control" either. The distinction exists, though. I just don't think we currently have a term for "combo that also runs cards to turn off the opponent's disruption", just like we have no term for "aggro that uses discard and light LD to disturb the opponent's game plan" (Suicide Black and its variants).
TES packs some control elements with a cantrip engine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
FT plays more control elements, with cantrips and a draw engine in SDT. It also have a good amount of tutors to gain them and a stable manabase with lots of lands to make constant land drops.
Solidarity used its Fows/Remands/Twincast as control elements when playing against aggro to gain time, they were used as protection when trying to combo.
FT uses its Chants as control elements to slow down aggro when it's needed, and to disrupt opposing combos, its extirpates to slow down Ichorid, its wipe away can be used to gain a turn bouncing a goyf.
All those elements are used as protection for the combo too.
Aluren and Solidarity are the classic examples of Combo-Control archetype IMO, as they pack more lands than a classic combo deck, they're slower and they run more disruption than a classic combo deck. T in its SDT version fulfills all those criteria.
Whatever. People say that Ichorid is Combo (which is wrong imo), people say that Enchantress is Combo (which is wrong imo), people say that FT is control (which is wrong imo). Also, MossNought is AggroComboControl (what?). Just stop arguing about archetypes, they don't exist anymore. Do some relevant stuff in the meantime (like testing if 2 Doomsdays are necessary - I'm down to one).
Even so, that does not make the deck control. You have controlling cards, not a controlling deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenOne
I think it's rather the point, that FT plays and feels like a control deck. You slowly cantrip and get all the stuff you need to win, until you can play through your opponent's hate. So you usualy play the deck slow and safe, but if needed you can also play fast and goldfishlike, crushing aggro and other stuff without hate.
I was about to answer your other post, then I saw everyone already did. Anyway, I don't like to call it control-combo either. Nihil actually posted exacly what ACME Myst said a while ago: control in this deck is analogue to the control in a Suicide Black deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
I'll do more testing against ichorid, but now that I've had some sleep and whatnot, I see my stupidity. My mistake was not even thinking (which is so often the case when you are brain-dead) about 'Pating bridges or boarding in E. Truth. You know, the obvious choices that I couldn't even function well enough to make.
I see he's running 3x grips in the board. I've gone up to 4, dropping serenity down to 3x. 3x Serenity is still good against major artifact lists such as Ravager and Stax varients, 4 is unnecessary, but better than this is that Grips is a "right-now" card. Serenity is easily dealt with by an O-Ring. K. Grip can get that Trinisphere off the board right away. Alternatively, Grips are also good against Dragon Stompy. Get's rid of their equipment right away rather than letting them hit you with it again. Before clearing the board.
I am going up to 16 lands, but I can't figure out what to drop for it. I suppose I'll try out the Brain Freeze in place of Tendrils #2. What all does it help against?
Should I drop 1 of my 2 LDV for a 4th Enlightened Tutor? I see Emidln doesn't use them, but some of you others do. I've been running 2x. I guess I could just drop one and toss in the 16th land in that slot...I want the 16th land for another basic (Island) as I've only been running 1/1 on swamp and Island in favor of a maindeck Trop, although another Tundra might be an option as I've been looking more for both white and blue sources. Does anyone else run 2x Scrubs?
Pce,
--DC
Brain Freeze helps against Meddling Mage and Gaddock. That's it. Oh, maybe with solidarity too if that matters. :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
I never tested E. Tutor. Is it any good? Seems horrible G1 when it can really fetch only LED and SDT. Post SB I guess it's a lot better, fetching Serenity and, eventually, Explosives or CounterBalance.
Isn't it too much card disadvantage? Isn't LDV better in its spot? Which slots is it taking in your list?
No, it's crap. I meant a 4th Mystical Tutor. I am indeed playing a 3x M. Tutor/2x LDV split, though Same with Top/Wraith, respectively. I'm really thinking about dropping down to 1x LDV, as it's only really superior against Chalice at 1. It's not really any better against CB.
@ Brain Freeze: Wouldn't it just be better to Death wish into slaughter pact or a bounce spell or even Massacre for against Teeg and Mage? Brain Freeze vs. Solidarity is damn funny, especially when we run Extirpate AND chants...lol.
Pce,
--DC