[Deck] TES - The EPIC Storm

Is Vexing Shusher considered to be a better option than Xantid Swarm solely because of Counterbalance? Against regular countermagic, the two seem relatively equivalent (both will generally require you to untap with them in play, both will die to the same removal), while Shusher is clearly more effective against Counterbalance. This seems to be the primary reason for running Shusher, correct? On a related note, have you found that you have enough mana to support Shusher effectively against an active Counterbalance and Top?

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Originally Posted by b4r0n

Is Vexing Shusher considered to be a better option than Xantid Swarm solely because of Counterbalance? Against regular countermagic, the two seem relatively equivalent (both will generally require you to untap with them in play, both will die to the same removal), while Shusher is clearly more effective against Counterbalance. This seems to be the primary reason for running Shusher, correct? On a related note, have you found that you have enough mana to support Shusher effectively against an active Counterbalance and Top?

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Uhh it can't be countered. Dodges Chalice also. It is just better. Don't play suboptimal cards because of cost. More! Can be used when it came into play.

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Originally Posted by Jak.

Uhh it can't be countered. Dodges Chalice also. It is just better. Don't play suboptimal cards because of cost. More! Can be used when it came into play.

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Is the uncounterability worth the extra mana in his cost, as well as the need to invest an additional mana in his ability in order to deal with the counter that would have been spent on the Shusher? In other words, you're paying R/G R/G for Shusher, then R/G to deal with the counter in their hand when they use it, versus G for Xantid, which either strips the counter from their hand or nullifies it the next turn.

Regarding Chalice, I'm currently running 4 Shattering Sprees in my board, so those would come before Shusher would. I suppose I could see bringing in Shusher in addition, but generally I find the 3 Sprees + Wishing for the 4th to be enough hate. Speaking of sufficient hate, aren't Shushers + Chants + Blasts slightly excessive for beating blue? Do you find that this dilutes the deck too much?

I'm genuinely curious about this. I'm not that impressed by Shusher, and I'd like to understand why people have found him to be optimal.

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Originally Posted by b4r0n

Is the uncounterability worth the extra mana in his cost, as well as the need to invest an additional mana in his ability in order to deal with the counter that would have been spent on the Shusher? In other words, you're paying R/G R/G for Shusher, then R/G to deal with the counter in their hand when they use it, versus G for Xantid, which either strips the counter from their hand or nullifies it the next turn.

Regarding Chalice, I'm currently running 4 Shattering Sprees in my board, so those would come before Shusher would. I suppose I could see bringing in Shusher in addition, but generally I find the 3 Sprees + Wishing for the 4th to be enough hate. Speaking of sufficient hate, aren't Shushers + Chants + Blasts slightly excessive for beating blue? Do you find that this dilutes the deck too much?

I'm genuinely curious about this. I'm not that impressed by Shusher, and I'd like to understand why people have found him to be optimal.

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Counters are not that hard to deal with. Counterbalance and Counters is what is dificult. Shusher gives us the answer to it. It is uncounterable and they have to find their 4 Swords to kill it. All you need is RR or RW to win the game. He is that good. Guaranteeing a resolved Chant or the destruction of CB is what this deck needed.

Chalice was just an additional use it has. I run 1 SS, so I would leave it in the board and probably bring in Shusher. I doubt I will, but it has a lot of uses.

Shusher solves Chalice and Counterbalance problems all at once. I had trouble finding room for additional Shattering Sprees in the SB alongside REB's, but Shusher freed up lots of room.

Also, the additional mana you pay for Shusher is negligible, since you can generally wait a bit longer against decks which you're bringing it in.

Vexing Shusher is the nut high because it wins games that would other wise be lost. A Xantid Swarm draws out a Force of Will, but it leaves the Counterspell in hand, where Vexing Shusher just tells your opponent to completely piss off. With the exception of Stifle, Vexing Shusher feels like an uncounterable Mind Twist against blue that also gives you a fighting chance against your worst case scenarios of Counterbalance and Chalice of the Void.

Just being able to protect Burning Wish -> Hull Breach thru' Counterbalance has been priceless.

I've been raping the local metagame so hard with Vexing Shusher that our store has just sold out of Blue blasts, and that's no damn lie.

ANother thing about Shusher is that it's really annoying to kill with EE since it will also take out your Goyf/Cbalance/Confidant/etc.

Well, it also beats for 2, isn't it? :tongue:

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Originally Posted by GreenOne

Well, it also beats for 2, isn't it? :tongue:

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It's not an invalid point, I've won a couple games from SSG/Shusher beats, being able to drop the storm count by 1 is always useful.

I am in love with it. I finally feel comfortable playing Landstill and Thresh. Before, the deck really needed to win quicky before CB came online, but now I can sculp my hand with cantrips and then combo out with ease. It is awesome. Please run it over Swarm, his days are over with Shusher.

is shusher that strong, so it'll degenerate the meta ? like keeping the aggro decks out cause every ass will pick up combo, which only gets trouble from well tuned ***** versions with sideboards heavily dedicated to fighting combo with shusher (Blue Blasts, etc.).

i haven't played a game with shusher so far, but as you are praising it seems to be awesome :/ imo mainy players kept distance from combo bc they beat the shit out of aggro, but then get stopped by some ***** version, which tends to be in the higher brackets very often. i know some combo guys who would love to pick up combo but play pox or heavily disruptive suicide decks instead, cause they have a better game with it vs ***** and still a decent one vs aggro.

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Originally Posted by zefhek

is shusher that strong, so it'll degenerate the meta ? like keeping the aggro decks out cause every ass will pick up combo, which only gets trouble from well tuned ***** versions with sideboards heavily dedicated to fighting combo with shusher (Blue Blasts, etc.).

i haven't played a game with shusher so far, but as you are praising it seems to be awesome :/ imo mainy players kept distance from combo bc they beat the shit out of aggro, but then get stopped by some ***** version, which tends to be in the higher brackets very often. i know some combo guys who would love to pick up combo but play pox or heavily disruptive suicide decks instead, cause they have a better game with it vs ***** and still a decent one vs aggro.

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Shusher isn't degenerate, it just allows TES players to play around counterspells and counterbalance. Basically, it allows us to goldfish with an opponent across from us. Eventually Thresh players will adapt and play Blue Blasts down the line, yes, however, we've been playing Red Blast the entire time. We can just counter thier blue blast and make our Red Blast uncounterable.

What you're failing to realize is that combo is normally up at the higher brackets since it has a lot of good match-ups. Once it meets Threshold now, it doesn't have to be afraid because of Vexing Shusher. In the end, people will pick up TES because of Shusher or TES players will see the value of Shusher and start winning more tough match-ups. Hopefully both, but it doesn't really matter.

i realize that combo is always at the higher brackets, and that's the time when it starts passing games to *****, which it won't with shusher. at least not as often as before.

but i think there is also a big m´number who passed combo in favour of playing a deck with a good matchup vs ***** and those will now be coming back to combo (especially tes) cause it seems to me that it offers the most equitity atm vs a random meta. and more tes could mean less aggro. but then blasts could be enough to balance the whole thing :/

just waiting for a combo summer... :D

You'll see two things, the first thing you'll see is that Storm hate and Goblin hate will converge in most SBs, i.e Storm/Goblin hate will be Stifles to circumvent Vexing Shusher and Blue blasts to remove it. The second thing you'll see is that since Storm hate will be concentrated on dealing with Vexing Shusher, the control or aggro-control deck will be using more instant based hate than permanent based hate. This creates more virtual card advantage for Orim's Chant when it turns off Stifle and Blue blasts, and it reduces the amount of permanent hate Storm has to remove. Since Vexing Shusher is already an answer to Counterbalance and Chalice of the Void, Storm is gaining the upper hand in match ups that were once unfavorable.

It's not so much Vexing Shusher is an "Oops, I win" button for combo, it's that Counterbalance isn't a "Oops, I win" button for control any more.

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

You'll see two things, the first thing you'll see is that Storm hate and Goblin hate will converge in most SBs, i.e Storm/Goblin hate will be Stifles to circumvent Vexing Shusher and Blue blasts to remove it. The second thing you'll see is that since Storm hate will be concentrated on dealing with Vexing Shusher, the control or aggro-control deck will be using more instant based hate than permanent based hate. This creates more virtual card advantage for Orim's Chant when it turns off Stifle and Blue blasts, and it reduces the amount of permanent hate Storm has to remove. Since Vexing Shusher is already an answer to Counterbalance and Chalice of the Void, Storm is gaining the upper hand in match ups that were once unfavorable.

It's not so much Vexing Shusher is an "Oops, I win" button for combo, it's that Counterbalance isn't a "Oops, I win" button for control any more.

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Breathweapon, I regret saying this but... I've been liking you more and more every day. He's pretty much right.

EDIT: I updated the opening post with some new information.

So, have people tried replacing the Shattering Sprees with Serenitys, the non-wish target ones for SBing in? Picking off Chrome Moxes aside, having another set of outs against Arcane Laboratory, Rule of Law, In the Eye of Chaos, Pyrostatic Pillar, Runed Halo and Counterbalance has been useful in play testing. You don't get the uncounterable Chalice of the Void removal against Faerie Stompy or AfFOWnity, and you can't resolve it thru' Chalice of the Void @2 with out Vexing Shusher, but it deals with a ton of random Enchantment based combo hate that TES can struggle against. Rule of Law is especially annoying and easily SBable in Landstill for example.

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

So, have people tried replacing the Shattering Sprees with Serenitys, the non-wish target ones for SBing in? Picking off Chrome Moxes aside, having another set of outs against Arcane Laboratory, Rule of Law, In the Eye of Chaos, Pyrostatic Pillar, Runed Halo and Counterbalance has been useful in play testing. You don't get the uncounterable Chalice of the Void removal against Faerie Stompy or AfFOWnity, and you can't resolve it thru' Chalice of the Void @2 with out Vexing Shusher, but it deals with a ton of random Enchantment based combo hate that TES can struggle against. Rule of Law is especially annoying and easily SBable in Landstill for example.

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I would rather just run Tranquility and Shattering Spree. The ability to get them game one is why they will not get cut. I run, right now, Hull Breach, SS, and Tranquility just so I don't lose to random and DS. Maybe if those decks trouble you that much, but for me I am fine wit the set up.

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Originally Posted by Jak.

I would rather just run Tranquility and Shattering Spree. The ability to get them game one is why they will not get cut. I run, right now, Hull Breach, SS, and Tranquility just so I don't lose to random and DS. Maybe if those decks trouble you that much, but for me I am fine wit the set up.

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I didn't mean cut the wish targets for the Serenitys, I meant SB Serenity in addition to the wish targets:

SB

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Infernal Contract
1 Hull Breach
1 Pyroclasm
4 Serenity
4 Vexing Shusher

Non wish target outs to Enchantments seems good considering Counterbalance can't guarantee a 2cc card to counter it and Rule of Law is obnoxious.

I'm not getting enough mileage out of Pyroblast/Thoughtseize and Serenity has just been solid in the handful of matches I've boarded it in.

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

I didn't mean cut the wish targets for the Serenitys, I meant SB Serenity in addition to the wish targets:

SB

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Infernal Contract
1 Hull Breach
1 Pyroclasm
4 Serenity
4 Vexing Shusher

Non wish target outs to Enchantments seems good considering Counterbalance can't guarantee a 2cc card to counter it and Rule of Law is obnoxious.

I'm not getting enough mileage out of Pyroblast/Thoughtseize and Serenity has just been solid in the handful of matches I've boarded it in.

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I like your board. Serenity seems strong game 2 and 3, and Hull Breach should be fine for taking out Counterbalance as if Burning Wish goes through, it usually does also. Though I don't think that we're so worried about counterbalance anymore, so we may want to devote the rest of the SB to ways of removing 3Sphere and the like. In that case a 1 Spree/3 Serenity split could be strong.

I still like Pyroblast though to take out CB. I also like being able to remove multiple enchantments and artifacts game one.

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

I didn't mean cut the wish targets for the Serenitys, I meant SB Serenity in addition to the wish targets:

SB

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Infernal Contract
1 Hull Breach
1 Pyroclasm
4 Serenity
4 Vexing Shusher

Non wish target outs to Enchantments seems good considering Counterbalance can't guarantee a 2cc card to counter it and Rule of Law is obnoxious.

I'm not getting enough mileage out of Pyroblast/Thoughtseize and Serenity has just been solid in the handful of matches I've boarded it in.

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I really like that sideboard, although, I'd swap the Contract for a Thoughtseize. Once I get some asian Serenity I'll try it out.

So I guess with the printing of Shusher, there doesn't seem to be much of a reason to play Fetchland Tendrils over this deck - which means I'll be playing this deck. I just have a few questions, before I start putting this together:

What do you think the optimal SB is in the following meta?

• 2-3 Threshold (1-2 Thrash)
• 1-2 Goblins
• 0-1 TES
• 1 Survival (boards in hate in the form of permanents)
• 1-2 Dragon Stompy
• 1 43.Lands
• 1 UWb Cunning Landstill
• 1GWb Aggro
• 1GW Aggro

I know that I want to play 4 Shusher, 1 IGG, 1 Draw4, 1 DReturns, 1 EtW, and 1 Tendrils. I have 3 Serenity to I kind of want to play them along with 1 Shattering Spree.

Does that sound about right?

G1, without Shusher, is it worth waiting for Chant against Thresh or do you find it better to just go all in ASAP before they can land Balance? Howabout against Thrash, which doesn't play Balance?

What is the most effective way to combat Wasteland/Stifle? Fetchland Tendrils access to Extirpate made that deck ideal in the Thrash MU, though it was still by no means positive.

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Originally Posted by Mental

So I guess with the printing of Shusher, there doesn't seem to be much of a reason to play Fetchland Tendrils over this deck - which means I'll be playing this deck. I just have a few questions, before I start putting this together:

What do you think the optimal SB is in the following meta?

• 2-3 Threshold (1-2 Thrash)
• 1-2 Goblins
• 0-1 TES
• 1 Survival (boards in hate in the form of permanents)
• 1-2 Dragon Stompy
• 1 43.Lands
• 1 UWb Cunning Landstill
• 1GWb Aggro
• 1GW Aggro

I know that I want to play 4 Shusher, 1 IGG, 1 Draw4, 1 DReturns, 1 EtW, and 1 Tendrils. I have 3 Serenity to I kind of want to play them along with 1 Shattering Spree.

Does that sound about right?

G1, without Shusher, is it worth waiting for Chant against Thresh or do you find it better to just go all in ASAP before they can land Balance? Howabout against Thrash, which doesn't play Balance?

What is the most effective way to combat Wasteland/Stifle? Fetchland Tendrils access to Extirpate made that deck ideal in the Thrash MU, though it was still by no means positive.

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I think the Sideboard that Breathweapon posted is really good. Although, I like Thoughtsieze in the sideboard as a game one protection spell.

I generally have this logic about Threshold. If you can go off turn 1-2 and they're tapped out do it. If your opening hand has a few cantrips try and find Chant, otherwise just go.

Thrash which doesn't play balance you can sit around and wait a little bit longer. But don't wait too long. They can still acquire double Force/Spellsnare/Stifle.

Wasteland/stifle, doesn't have the same effect on our manabase as it does fetchland Tendrils. Both wasteland/stifle have a solid effect on TES, however, if you can resolve Chant, who cares about stifle? The best way to play around wasteland is, if you have two lands play them. If you have one land and are afraid it's going to get wasted hold it until you can combo off.

Ive been messing around with goblin lore and control of the court in another deck and they were pretty interesting. Has anyone tested them in TES? Seems like they might work well with cabal rit and iggy. Chances are you have already tested them.

Both Goblin Lore and Control of the Court are just expensive cantrips with random card selection that build Threshold, I tried them once in SI and I couldn't get them to work.

Barring 2 MD slots and personal choices in the golden lands, I think the MD is more or less set.

lol missed random discard not reading and pulling all nighter ftl.

I did some testing with Serenity against Dragon Stompy. I've found it's not better than Shattering Spree. It's next to impossible to cast with 8 Blood Moon effects and Chalice. I'd much rather just play Shattering Spree.

Well against Tomb/City decks sure, but I find Serenity's most useful function is removing the odd Enchantments like Counterbalance, Rule of Law and Runed Halo against control while still being useful against Trinishphere and Chalice of the Void based decks. I mean, if Serenity actually causes the opponent to SB in 8 moon effects to keep you off of White mana, then that's some pretty spectacular dead card advantage right there.

I don't think it means Serenity is bad, it just means Shattering Spree is better against Tomb/City decks and Fearie Stompy or Affownity, and that much was sort of a given.

Wait... in those slots, wouldnt Pyroblasts be better than Serenity? Pyroblasts protect your Shushers from opposing BEBs and Pyroblasts are additional outs against Counterbalance. Also, if you guys are to run 3 Pyroblasts, that 4th slot could finally go to Thoughtseize.

Against Chalice, we have Burning Wish, because all decks that run Chalice lack Counter-magic outside of Faerie Stompy to protect that Chalice and our manabase gets around Blood Moon effects. We can just sit back and wait for 2-3 Turns and find a Burning Wish to answer lock components then just combo out.

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

Well against Tomb/City decks sure, but I find Serenity's most useful function is removing the odd Enchantments like Counterbalance, Rule of Law and Runed Halo against control while still being useful against Trinishphere and Chalice of the Void based decks. I mean, if Serenity actually causes the opponent to SB in 8 moon effects to keep you off of White mana, then that's some pretty spectacular dead card advantage right there.

I don't think it means Serenity is bad, it just means Shattering Spree is better against Tomb/City decks and Fearie Stompy or Affownity, and that much was sort of a given.

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The blood moon effects are maindeck. Also, I'm not going to board in Serenity for Counter Balance. Cleanfall as a Wishtarget deals with all of those. I'm just going to run the sideboard I posted.

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Originally Posted by Bryant Cook

The blood moon effects are maindeck. Also, I'm not going to board in Serenity for Counter Balance. Cleanfall as a Wishtarget deals with all of those. I'm just going to run the sideboard I posted.

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I think you're right, Chalice of the Void at 2 has been costing me a lot of games and the Enchantments are too few and far between to care, I think I'm going -1 Hull Breach -4 Serenity for +1 Cleanfall and +4 Shattering Spree.

Going to a tournament tomorrow, I'll post the results when I get back.

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

I think you're right, Chalice of the Void at 2 has been costing me a lot of games and the Enchantments are too few and far between to care, I think I'm going -1 Hull Breach -4 Serenity for +1 Cleanfall and +4 Shattering Spree.

Going to a tournament tomorrow, I'll post the results when I get back.

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Good luck Breath Weapon. Tell us how the 4 Shattering Spree goes. I'm really digging the idea of playing SP and PBlast as metagame choices for those slots. Also, you should consider the Sidedeck Thoughtseize, I heard really great things about it.

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Originally Posted by Anti~American4621

Good luck Breath Weapon. Tell us how the 4 Shattering Spree goes. I'm really digging the idea of playing SP and PBlast as metagame choices for those slots. Also, you should consider the Maindeck Thoughtseize, I heard really great things about it.

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Why maindeck Thoughtseize? Over what more importantly? The maindeck is the most solid it's ever been right now. I'm currently playing...

4 Vexing Shusher
3 Shattering Spree
2 Pyroblast
1 Cleanfall
1 Pyroclasm
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens

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Originally Posted by Bryant Cook

Why maindeck Thoughtseize? Over what more importantly? The maindeck is the most solid it's ever been right now. I'm currently playing...

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Oops... typo... I meant to say Sidedeck...

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4 Vexing Shusher
3 Shattering Spree
2 Pyroblast
1 Cleanfall
1 Pyroclasm
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens

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Why did Thoughtseize get cut anyway? I liked it a lot in testing...

I still like it, although in many situations that I wish for it I'm already winning. After an ETW or Mid-combo when I have 3 extra mana to add to storm.

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Originally Posted by Bryant Cook

I still like it, although in many situations that I wish for it I'm already winning. After an ETW or Mid-combo when I have 3 extra mana to add to storm.

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Don't you forget the most important situation?

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Originally Posted by Bryant Cook

However, TES has Burning Wish for Thoughtsieze. Meaning TES doesn't have to find Orim's Chant since it has another option.

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Now you can only rely on cantrips to find Chant. Don't you just lose if you can't find it?

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Originally Posted by Brehn

Don't you forget the most important situation?



Now you can only rely on cantrips to find Chant. Don't you just lose if you can't find it?

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Am I not allowed to test alternate sideboards? If I was to go to a tournament today I'd play my list on the opening page. I'm just currently testing without a Thoughtsieze in the sideboard, calm down. Also, why would the deck lose without Burning Wish for Thoughtsieze? The deck can plow through hate.

Maybe its just me, but diminishing returns ALWAYS screws me, ALWAYS. How many times out of ten does diminishing returns usually result in a fizzle?

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Originally Posted by arsenalpow

Maybe its just me, but diminishing returns ALWAYS screws me, ALWAYS. How many times out of ten does diminishing returns usually result in a fizzle?

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Between 1/5 and 1/10, and less than either of those if the win conditions are > 2. Just remember to float the 3rd U from LED so it can resolve a Brainstorm or Ponder if you can.

Maybe it was just a rough shuffle. It was something like accellerant x2, wish into diminishing returns cracking LED for UUU in response, casting returns floating a U, drawing 7 into a brainstorm/ponder, casting cantrip, finding nothing GG :(

A version of that has happens at least 3/5 for me.