Re: [DTW] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
Hello again,
I'll be playing on a 20-30ish tournament this weekend and was wondering if you can help me with my sideboard. I don't know the MU on that tourney so I'm trying to make a generic sideboard. Here's my current sideboard:
4 Chain of Vapor
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Ray of Revelation
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Ancestor's Chosen
I used to have Nature's Claim in place of Ray of Revelation but I have found out that there are times when the Claims just get dredged into the graveyard which makes it pretty useless. I noticed that only a few players aggressively mulligan to Leyline of the Void/Planar Void/Wheel of Sun and Moon; and even if they do, I don't think I'll have a problem playing a 2cc spell with my current mana base of 14 lands. I was still thinking of adding Terastodon or Angel of Despair but I'm not sure if it's necessary. Plus I don't like giving my opponents elephant tokens to chump block my army and destroy my bridges at the same time.
Re: [DTW] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
Why do people play Sphinx over Witness? It seems like Witness should always be the better call. Is there something I'm missing?
Re: [DTW] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
Why do people play Sphinx over Witness? It seems like Witness should always be the better call. Is there something I'm missing?
Sphinx is an evasive beater with 3 power?
But why'd you play Sphinx in the first place?
Re: [DTW] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
>.>
Iona is an evasive Beater with 7 power... OH, and it's not reliable on Dredgers / Bridges
I played Iona / Witness in the past... never liked Sage or Sphinx.
Re: [DTW] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
I play Iona. I want to play a second Dread Return target, I was thinking Witness.
Why doesn't anyone play FKZ or Sadistic Hypnotist?
Re: [DTW] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
Why do people play Sphinx over Witness? It seems like Witness should always be the better call. Is there something I'm missing?
Sometimes you don't have any spare mana to do anything retarded with Sphinx.
Re: [DTW] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
I play Iona. I want to play a second Dread Return target, I was thinking Witness.
Why doesn't anyone play FKZ or Sadistic Hypnotist?
FKZ is generally unnecessary. You'll get some flashy finishes game 1, but if you've made enough tokens for FKZ to be lethal chances are you've won anyway.
I always found Hypnotist to be too slow. Without the LED combo you really can't get him online before your opponent has a chance to play their hate pieces. In post board games if you're able to DR a Hypnotist you're just as well off, if not better, tearing up your opponents hand with Therapies and sticking Iona. Iona does most of the work that Hypnotist does by herself - the fact that she's also a large flying beater is just amazing, that she doesn't require you to have any bridges in your yard or other creatures in play is very nice as well.
Witness was my only DR target MD for a long time and I really don't think the corner cases where Sphinx might be better amount to anything substantial - particularly in builds running Bloodghast.
Re: [DTW] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
I play Iona. I want to play a second Dread Return target, I was thinking Witness.
Why doesn't anyone play FKZ or Sadistic Hypnotist?
If you want a Dread Return target, run Terastodon. Unlike Witness or Iona or FKZ or Sadistic Hypnotist, Terastodon is good in your bad matchups. It kills stuff like Moat game1.
Re: [DTW] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
@Sunshine
Do you still run Witness/Iona as DR targets?
I've actually adopted the zero MD DR targets right now, although I will admit that Iona can randomly just make games much easier for you. She'd probably be the only reanimation target I'd want to run now. Witness has always been good for me, but I'm still re-exploring my options at this point.
Re: [DTW] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
Why do people play Sphinx over Witness? It seems like Witness should always be the better call. Is there something I'm missing?
I play Sphinx coz it helps me get to the bottom of my library faster. It helps me keep dredging until I get all my key cards in the graveyard, kinda like a breakthrough/cephalid coliseum w/ Flashback. Since I also use FKZ, Sphinx helps me build a lethal army of zombies by getting most of my cards to the graveyard. I then sacrifice Sphinx to get more tokens via dread return and get FKZ out to kill my opponents on that same turn. IMHO, I think Sphinx and FKZ are the best combination of DR targets to use if you want to win as fast as possible. Granted that we win G1 most of the time anyways, I maintain a combo mindset when playing game 1 so that I have a better chance against other fast combo decks like Belcher, ANT and Reanimator.
Re: [DTW] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
I have the deck put together and started goldfishing today.
A few things I've noticed....
Turn one: Discard outlet.
Turn two: Breakthrough or Careful Study? I Imagine go for broke game one and Breakthrough. Game two, if I for some reason left in Breakthrough, careful study for the slow dredge?
another...
Witness vs Sphinx - I've had the chance to Dread Return plenty of times and have to say game one Witness has been a little underwhelming. Most of the time I don't have that extra mana. Do I leave witness in game two? If not I want to cut it. Because I can see getting back Chain of Vapor or Firestorm or some other sideboard card.
Re: [DTW] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
I have the deck put together and started goldfishing today.
A few things I've noticed....
Turn one: Discard outlet.
Turn two: Breakthrough or Careful Study? I Imagine go for broke game one and Breakthrough. Game two, if I for some reason left in Breakthrough, careful study for the slow dredge?
another...
Witness vs Sphinx - I've had the chance to Dread Return plenty of times and have to say game one Witness has been a little underwhelming. Most of the time I don't have that extra mana. Do I leave witness in game two? If not I want to cut it. Because I can see getting back Chain of Vapor or Firestorm or some other sideboard card.
Most of the time I go for Careful Study, but it totally depends on the matchup. If you need speed, say against combo, and have a decent amount of dredges, definitely aim for Breakthrough.This maximizes your chances of hitting narcs and therapies asap. Remember that Breakthrough is an all-in card, so game 2 I usually only use it after I bait out hate.
Witness is simply more flexible than Sphinx. After playing the deck for a while, I can definitely say that I appreciate witness more, but these days I feel both are unnecessary. The problem with both of these is that they help you win more. Granted witness can "get SB cards back", you must overcome the obstacle in the first place to even use Dread Return on her. Straight up (almost) silver bullets, like Iona, Ancestor's Chosen, and Terastadon, are actual amazing reanimation targets for the respective matchups. Witness is sometimes flexible and Sphinx helps you win more - I would rather just run zero of these MD and roll with a more consistent list. Neither of these targets greatly enhance your chances of winning game 1. As I stated in my previous post, I think the only reanimation target I'd still run is Iona, cause she can randomly end games without trying.
Re: [DTW] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Bridge from Below
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
1 Eternal Witness
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Tarnished Citadel
4 Firestorm
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Nature's Claim
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Terastodon
What would you add over Witness to make the decklist more consistent? In all reality, it looks as about as consistent as it's going to get. I guess you could play three Dread Return instead. But that seems weak to me. I guess I could play a 14th land, but I haven't had any issues with 13. I'm a lazy mulligan-er too, but with this deck I've been pretty aggressive and it's been working just fine.
There's a bit of combo (TES/Ant/Cascade) and reanimator in Syracuse still. Which means there's cards like Blazing Archon I need to remember about, which is one of the reasons I'm so sold on Witness -> Firestorm/Chain.
Re: [DTW] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Bridge from Below
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
1 Eternal Witness
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Tarnished Citadel
4 Firestorm
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Nature's Claim
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Terastodon
What would you add over Witness to make the decklist more consistent? In all reality, it looks as about as consistent as it's going to get. I guess you could play three Dread Return instead. But that seems weak to me. I guess I could play a 14th land, but I haven't had any issues with 13. I'm a lazy mulligan-er too, but with this deck I've been pretty aggressive and it's been working just fine.
There's a bit of combo (TES/Ant/Cascade) and reanimator in Syracuse still. Which means there's cards like Blazing Archon I need to remember about, which is one of the reasons I'm so sold on Witness -> Firestorm/Chain.
The list looks fine, but you're spot on about where to improve consistency. I run 15 land currently (I know, crazy right), but I also have to deal with hate all the time where I am, so I end up going man plan a lot (yea, Stinkweed Imp and Narcomoeba beatdown, I am not shitting you). Lands really help against Wasteland and make sure your game 2 and 3 aren't so rough. Otherwise, it's opting to run 12 dredgers or the third Dread Return. Even though 3 Dread Returns looks wasted, it's really not, as it allows you to consistently have a sac outlet for Narcomoebas. If you have Iona, you definitely want to think about running 3 just for consistency's sake.
If there' still a decent amount of combo in Syracuse, I'd consider running Unmasks in the board. I know many people are against it, but I have had much success vs storm decks with it. If you can halt them for a turn or two, you can really seal the deal by hitting even just one Cabal Therapy and then using your few zombies to go the distance while constantly snowballing your dredges.
Re: [DTW] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
I have the deck put together and started goldfishing today.
A few things I've noticed....
Turn one: Discard outlet.
Turn two: Breakthrough or Careful Study? I Imagine go for broke game one and Breakthrough. Game two, if I for some reason left in Breakthrough, careful study for the slow dredge?
another...
Witness vs Sphinx - I've had the chance to Dread Return plenty of times and have to say game one Witness has been a little underwhelming. Most of the time I don't have that extra mana. Do I leave witness in game two? If not I want to cut it. Because I can see getting back Chain of Vapor or Firestorm or some other sideboard card.
If you're trying to lure a counter, play Breakthrough. If you want to slow roll for whatever reason game one (i.e. Jotun Grunt etc.) then play Careful Study.
Depending on who you're playing against (aka blue decks) Cabal Therapy for Force of Will can also be the correct turn one play because a good blue player will attempt to counter all of your discard outlets.
During game two, Breakthrough is the correct play if you're opponent has no hate on the table and you know their hand doesn't contain counters or Ravenous Trap.
Careful Study becomes the correct play when you're trying to dig for hate and/or slow roll your opponent. This becomes less important if they don't have active hate on the board.
I'd cut Eternal Witness, simply because there's better DR targets. When I played with EW, I never liked how when you got her back that nothing really happened until the next turn unelss you were lucky enough to have x lands out.
Re: [DTW] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
Turn one: Discard outlet.
Turn two: Breakthrough or Careful Study? I Imagine go for broke game one and Breakthrough. Game two, if I for some reason left in Breakthrough, careful study for the slow dredge?
It depends on what's in your hand. Generally I'll cast Careful Study there only if I have more gas in my hand. Game 1 I generally don't worry too much about how opponents could potentially mess me up. Most people don't have any grave hate at all, and if they do you can generally race it. The best way to deal with the possibility of an opponent ripping Crypt is to fill the board with Zombies and Trolls as quickly as possible. But yeah, generally I slam Breakthrough as fast as possible (when it's safe) if I have it (after-Therapy post-board if necessary) because it means that I can put some fattie on the board. The best way to be resilient to hate is to make them have lots of removal. Zombies can be removed with EE/Firespout, Troll can be removed with StP, Ichorids can be removed with GY hate, but you want to make them show you three different cards to win.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
Witness vs Sphinx - I've had the chance to Dread Return plenty of times and have to say game one Witness has been a little underwhelming. Most of the time I don't have that extra mana. Do I leave witness in game two? If not I want to cut it. Because I can see getting back Chain of Vapor or Firestorm or some other sideboard card.
I've built my sideboard to not need to use Witness game 2. Instead of Chain of Vapor and such, I've got Ancient Grudge and Ray of Revelation. If you need to remove a Blazing Archon, I think it's more appropriate to sideboard (or maindeck) an Angel of Despair.
Do an experiment for me; as you goldfish, look and see how often when you're getting Sphinx or Witness that you could just end the next game with a giant Troll.
With regards to your list, I think it's spot-on except for the Dread Return targets. I'd cut Iona and main an Angel of Despair, and cut Witness for a land. Then I'd consider switching Careful Study #4 for a land, since you generally have to mulligan more often because of lands than because of gas.
Re: [DTW] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
I'm sure it's been answered umpteen times in a 2000-post thread, but can someone give me a quickie-guide to sideboarding for various matchups? Primarily, I'm concerned about when to side in the extra DR targets, and how to SB if you're not sure what hate they're running?
Re: [DTW] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Benobi
I'm sure it's been answered umpteen times in a 2000-post thread, but can someone give me a quickie-guide to sideboarding for various matchups? Primarily, I'm concerned about when to side in the extra DR targets, and how to SB if you're not sure what hate they're running?
Past two pages?
Re: [DTW] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Yesmilord
@Sunshine
Do you still run Witness/Iona as DR targets?
I've actually adopted the zero MD DR targets right now, although I will admit that Iona can randomly just make games much easier for you. She'd probably be the only reanimation target I'd want to run now. Witness has always been good for me, but I'm still re-exploring my options at this point.
Running witness in the board right now. Iona is my only MD dedicated DR target.
Re: [DTW] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo
I am running Iona and Angel of Despair as my two DR targets in the mainboard. In my sideboard, I have Terestadon, Ancestor's Chosen, and Eternal Witness (for the same reason as Bryant, returning Firestorms/Chains/etc.)
I am really liking the two angels in the main because of their evasion, and I really like how Angel of Despair answers pretty much any hate that decks might have in their list.
