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I really can't see how removing vials would help with 'aggression'. Of course vial is not fastest card, but it gives you strong late game and that is why goblins are still playable. I chose path of aggression with mana denial - 11 one drops(lackey, vial, fanatic 9 two drops (mwm, piledriver, stingscourger, hooligan) and worked pretty good for me. Fanatic kill delvers and hiearchs (way to mana denial aganist maverick) and mwm easily outnumber bant and UWs...
I don't think I would ever cut the Vials from the main deck. I can think of plenty of games where the simple fact that my Ringleader or TukTuk Scrapper can't be countered has swung the match in my favor...or Vialing in a Siege-gang Commander with mana open to gain some value if they're holding removal.Quote:
Originally Posted by orcanmail
Plus, given that the recent list many of us are having success with runs Tarfire to combat all of the X/2 cards in the format these days, leaving that one mana open to kill their Stoneforge Mystic while still playing a goblin off of the vial is pretty good for us.
There's also a benefit in vialing in non-haste goblins at their EoT to dodge sorcery speed removal in certain match-ups (not all that common these days, but decks like pox are still out there).
I mean sure, we don't need the vial to win, but in my mind the possible interactions and lines of play that having the vial opens up are much more useful than some other random goblin.
I always ponder that question after I hit 3 mountains and a vial with two consecutive ringleaders. Yet, what would you replace it with? Lackey and vial are the only two aggressive 1 drops in the deck (as tarfire tends not to be aggressive unless combined with a lackey). The only solution I would see is adding in a chrome mox (or possibly a diamond)...which is floated/tried from time to time. Yet, then you are hitting the same issue with running a non-goblin.Quote:
Originally Posted by orcanmail
Imo, whether to run fetches depends on your meta. I've lost games to burn/zoo/RDWs because of the extra few life, and I've probably picked up games versus control due to them (although these are less apparent). Currently, I prefer not using any sac lands since there is a good deal of red-based aggro in my meta. No sacs tend to make your ringleaders worse (at least the first one), but the lands/vials do stay on the bottom of the deck. But in any case, I would argue that it really is a meta-call.
guys what the hell do you do against zoo???, i just cant beat them , is like an auto loss vs gobos... any suggestionsS?
Vs. Zoo your mvp's are Wasteland and MWM, maybe even Vial, since a lackey simply won't connect. Tarfire is quite bad, cause it kills no opposing creature and pumps goyf. The plan is to get to the lategame, while stabelising at 10+ life and outnumber them with ringleader and SGC. Vial in a matron in response to an attack declaracne is quite nice, especially when searching for gempalm and killing a crature.
Post board, Chalice @1 will seal the deal, or when splashing black Perish is a good call.
Second the emphasis on Wasteland and Mogg War Marshall against Zoo. Both very solid cards. I also like Stingscourger here. Their creatures are cheap to replay, but temporarily removing a blocker can give you the opening you need to run over their board.
Be very careful when cycling Gempalm Incinerator for damage. They're probably holding at least one piece of removal. Factor that into your count.
Relic of Progenitus also won me couple games agaianst zoo (those days I played Rg version).Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBopper
Mogg War Marshal is an MVP here (as others are saying). Definitely side out your Tarfires if you run them since Goyf is already big enough. I also like Stingscourger here since he can temporarily get a giant Goyf or Knight of the Reliquary out of your way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Basara
In all, you need to kill Lavamancer pretty much as soon as you see it. If you can make it to the mid/late game and start to drop Ringleaders you should be able to amass a bigger horde than they can deal with and just swarm them out.
Someone else mentioned this, but I will echo it - be careful with your Gempalms since they can always bolt one of your goblins in response and set up the 2 for 1.
Hello guys , this is my list , i had tested the list against my friends and/or store players , my meta is merfolk,zoo,burn,u/w blade, affinity , the rock , dredge lots of dredge.
Creatures
4 goblin lackey
4 goblin matron
4 goblin ring leader
4 warren instigator
3 siege-gang commander
2 goblin tinkerer
1 goblin piledriver
1 stingscourger
4 goblin chieftain
1 sparksmith
2 gempalm incinerator
//artifacts
4 aether vial
//instant
4 tarfire
//lands
18 mountain
4 wasteland
SB//
2 chalice of the void
4 relic of progenitus
2 goblin tinkerer
3 blood moon
3 pyroblast
1 anarchy
Explanations of some weird choices:
Sparksmith: He is absolutely the nuts, as a matron target , he is an absurd creature in mid-lategame , when you go the "card advantage route" (with ringleader and matron) absolutely crushes midrange decks , because he is a repeteable removal for his GSZ targets, i am thinking of adding a 2nd to the deck.
stingscourger: Main board answer to emrakul , also pseudo removal in t2 for our lackeys , and with chieftain he can also swing.
Goblin tinkerers Mb: I dont like tuk tuk , without warchief , he is an expensive shatter , also tinkerers are just AWESOME against affinity , killing 1 permanent per turn , yes plz.
Anarchy: silver bullet vs moat/enchantress/Circle of protection. i only had used this card once in a local tourney , alpha striking a white stax deck.:smile:
For me the new core cards of the deck are:
goblin lackey,goblin matron,Tarfire,Warren instigator,Goblin Ringleader.
i've noticed playingboth instigators and lackeys mean i mulligan less. definately a good thing. also ever considered playing both fanatics and tarfire for more cheap removal?
instigators mean i drop ports as too much colourless. no ports meant i dropped tempo warchirfs for chieftains and the mono red deck is definately more aggro and less tempo and control. it seems to put more pressure on and get better results.
with mwm, this turns into a piledriver and pumped by chieftains goblin swarm deck with mid game ringleaders!
Not sure about the mulligan... I feel like the curse of lackey/vial or else mulligan is there even in decklists playing instigator... The only way out is playing 3-4 moxes and hope in a opening hand with BOTH chrome mox and instigator. That is both pretty unlikely and it means running moxes that are often annoying from turn 2 on...Quote:
Originally Posted by orcanmail
I think that T2 insigator is just not good enough against pretty much any kind of aggro deck, I would mulligan a hand which has instigator but doesn t have vial/lackey.
I am a bit disappointed of instigator lately... Against aggro I find Instigator being a slow lackey on T2. It is amazing in front of a empty board but it is ridiculous in front of most T2 creatures such as tarmo/stoneforge/snapcaster. Even though you force them to block with their T2 creatures and you trade at best, their creatures generated card advantage while instigator doesn t. Waiting for chieftain means that they get even slower and the opponent has time for more blockers/removal... I find instigator a two edges sword: they are amazing in certain MU but they suck in many others, however, in any case they really restrict your freedom of building the deck. They force you to drop warchief and piledrivers. They are not an optional weapon to integrate in the game plan whenever you need them to, rather, they have influenced your deckbuilding in a way that either they work as they are supposed to or the deck looses so much power.
I am testing chrome moxes because I think that the possibility of dropping turn 1 instigator is the only way it is really meaningful running it, but I have mixed feelings since I often hate to top deck a mox rather than a land after turn 1.
My friend took my deck to a small tournament today, with this changes: -1 Gempalm, -1 Piledriver, -1 Shapshooter, +2 Relic of Progenitus, +1 Stingscourger, with a different SB.
The deck is awesome, but there were still some issues.
This list cannot run less than 3 Gempalm.
Instigator were awesome, but we're going to try to trim it to 3, or adding 1-2 Mox Chrome.
2nd Stingscourger won games where no other card would.
Relic MD won against Pox (Nether Spirit) and TES. They may be cut though, to open room for something I want to try.
Piledriver and Shooter MD made were not missed.
He lost to a Dueling Grounds, and to a 2nd TES deck.
I'm seriously considering adding some Anarchy on the board. They completely wreck Maverick, and give you some outs to random decks like DnT, Enchantress, stuff with Cop:red (that should be more popular due to the rise of Burn).
The other weird card is Word of Seizing. Have anyone ever tried this? I know it looks awful, but will maybe give it a little spin on the next tournament...
I definitely agree there. Before I started running Tarfire, Gempalm was often either not enough or overkill - now I feel like we have the reach to deal with larger problem creatures.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScatmanX
That's what I like about him - this past week I tried -1 Stingscourger +1 Piledriver in my list, and there were at least 3 occasions where I really needed the second Stinger. Piledriver was almost never relevant...I think he got in for 5 in one game. Otherwise he was just the first thing blocked every time.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScatmanX
Does anyone have any opinions on Pyrokinesis in the current meta? I know it's mono-red's go to card against fish, but I'm not seeing them in most boards and I'm not sure why. It gives us a bigger answer to larger creatures or multiple creatures, and with so much Maverick running around we don't even have to worry about it getting countered.
Lastly, any opinions on the correct amount of anti-artifact cards? I'm currently running 2x TukTuk Scrapper in the main and 1x Tinkerer in the board...but I rarely if ever feel the need to board the Tinkerer in. I'm thinking about cutting it for something else...I'm just not sure what yet.
Another Goblin deck finished top 16 this weekend at the SCG open with a weird list:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=44249
20 lands, but no colorless mana. "traditional" build-8 removal (4 warren weirding). Sharpshooter AND Lightning crafter, but no kikki-wort instead. No artifact hate.
Just take a look at the SB-goblin king, what for? Zoo, burn, *****. Engeneered Plague-Elves? Almost no one plays merfolk these days.
The interesting thing I found was goblin tunneler, which might solve the Instigator problem. And make piledriver be worth playing again? It's in the bad cards section, but just at tarfire this might be rethought...
I'm trying 2 out. It is a great card, but we need to ask if we need it or not. Does we NEED it to beat Maverick? NEED it to beat Elves? Mirror? Folk?Quote:
Originally Posted by Davran
I think 2 should increase our victory rate against those to a very good place.
Other than those, it stays on the board.
I bring in Tinkerer against UW, and sometimes against Maverick (other then Affinity, MUD, some Stompy decks and such). I love them there. Maybe they're not really needed, but from my experience it makes us much more favorable against them, so for now, it'll stay there...Quote:
Originally Posted by Davran
That list made my eyes bleed.Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBopper
Seriously. I think that if a guy with a deck like that goes to top16, I can only imagine what a good player with a tuned list would do over there...
I find Maverick to be a tough matchup (particularly the GWr version with Punishing Fire), so I'm looking for ways to improve that. It seems like I can keep them at bay in the early game with Tarfire and superior numbers...but once they hit a Goyf and a Knight or two the game is pretty much in their favor. Pyro might just give us that little extra bit we need.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScatmanX
As far as Elves, the mirror and Fish - I think that our Merfolk matchup was always so favorable for 2 reasons. 1) Piledriver has protection from blue and 2) we deploy faster and Ringleader refills our hand easily. Here, Pyro speeds up our kill by removing lords and mutavaults before they get too big or start trading for our team. Elves is similar except they set up a wall of chump blocking dorks rather than a few medium sized threats. Pyro can easily trade for 4 of their guys in the early game, and if you manage to burn out a Priest and an Archdruid they're going to have a hard time going off. The mirror can go either way...I try not to think to hard on it.
I suppose Tinkerer really is the only other option for a mono-red list. I might try putting him in the maindeck and sticking one of the Scrappers in the board simply because he is easier to cast. I still don't like that they get a whole turn to answer him before you can use it in some cases...but unfortunately that can't be helped.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScatmanX
I suppose Tunneler is "tech" in that no one expects it...but it does nothing against the number 1 reason my Lackeys and Instigators don't connect: Swords to PlowsharesQuote:
Originally Posted by ScatmanX
Lightning Crafter is more interesting...but I still think I'd rather have a Scrapper in that spot, especially in a list running Wort.
I find that 'bad' list interesting at least. The lack of wasteland is odd at first sight, but he does get a very solid two-color manabase with only 20 lands. This lets him run a full set of warren weirding in addition to all the usual red creature removal. This deck has no fear of Iona, that much is certain.
Here is an article on that list's last match at that tournament:Quote:
Originally Posted by ScatmanX
http://www.starcitygames.com/events/...travis_hi.html
Please read the article first!
Games one and two seem pretty normal to me. Both had one where they had a clear advantage over the other one. But then game 3... he mulliganed to 5.
1. turn: mountain go
2. turn: draw go
3. turn: draw go
4. turn: mountain go
5. turn: draw concede!
This is no nagging or else! I just want to understand what went that terribly wrong. He must have kept a hand with one mountain and nothing at either cc1 or cc2. And then nothing suitable in 3 turns of drawing? This could be just bad luck but I think he made a mistake in keeping such a seemingly bad hand and not going to 4.
What do you guys think about this?
He should definitely had gone to 4. Easy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steamflogger
Also, by his plays, if he swapped Warchief/Piledriver for Chieftain/Instigator G1, he would have won the same way, and Tuktuk/Tinkerer and Tarfires (killink Metalworker). Even Stingscourger would slow him down...
Land, Vial Go...Land, Vial, Go...seems like a great keep there when you know you're battling a fast deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScatmanX