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The problem with this is that there is an insurmountable number of builds you can do with the engine. This would cause an intense amount of floodage to the forums. I'm not sure how to handle it yet, but I don't think we need to separate it just yet.
Perhaps I'll post my list shortly, I've never really been one to keep secrets as it stands anyways. Currently the list is just a list is all, I'll be building it bit by bit though.
I agree with this and I don't at the same time. While the archetype has indeed grown far beyond that I suspect any of us thought it would a year ago, I think it can yet be sustained by one thread as long as people who are experienced to their specific versions are willing and able to answer questions pertaining to that version. I am both unwilling and unable to answer questions about PFire Jund anymore, for example, because I've focused on my versions and frankly I can't keep up with all of the awesome stuff that everyone is doing like I could when there were a half dozen or so decks within the archetype. Dedicated personnel, so to speak, would fix this problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReinVos
The biggest reason that I, for one, don't want the thread to split, is because no matter how divergent the various strategies of the decks within the archetype are, we can all learn from each other. The BUG and 4-color builds, whether combo or control, can learn from Paul's Hierarch technology. Unless we're all going to populate each thread (which won't happen, let's be honest here), we're going to miss that level of cross-pollination. Each version has something to say to each other version, in one of the most beautifully concordant discourses that this forum has probably ever seen. Even in the event of wildly different decks as per colors....like if I try a Burning-Tree Shaman and say it's amazing, it opens up a new line of attack for even versions NOT running red. What does Burning-Tree attack? How can non-red versions attack the same angles? etc.
There's just too much to be lost if we split the thread at this point. Very few versions are stable and refined enough that they can be split off on their own....and even then, as I said earlier, I believe that the whole will be diminished by the separation of its parts. It is true that peoples' voices have been lost due to the rapid flow of discourse, but I believe that if watchers for each version are on the lookout for such questions, they can be singled out and answered without losing the flow of information.
I do recommend that, going forward, we try to bold the name of members that we are specifically answering or addressing. That will also help to keep things from getting lost.
-Edit- Welcome to page 100, everyone =)
People could put the deck(s) they're working on in their sig. Then only those who are working on multiple versions have to specify in their replies.
I was going to say this as wellQuote:
Originally Posted by Nelis
Alright so, I'll kind of explain first the theory behind the list and maybe I can get some input on whether it would accomplish that. I firmly believe that Scavenging Ooze is the best creature currently printed. He shits on Goyf, he shits on Knight, he shits on GY dependent decks, he shits on snapcaster, he shits on batterskull, he shits on mongoose, AND he gains you life.
So I set out to really focus on this card, which means a few things about the deck: my own deck shouldn't be graveyard dependent at all; the deck would need to be heavily green focused; it would need to be able to reliably get activations out of him; it would need to not run sweepers that could hit my own creatures; it will need a low curve.
With this in mind, after several days of discussing this idea with my braintrust, we came up with a lot of ideas: BUG and RUG stood out a lot; why not play the ooze with other creatures that really fuck with your opponent's gameplan and keep ooze alive with all these counterspells. But that didn't seem right, it shifts me to leaving mana open for counters and being more reactive than proactive which wasn't what the intention was. Those were basically control decks with ooze instead of goyf (which, imo, should be happening anyways).
It was already in the back of my mind that Veteran Explorer / Cabal Therapy duo was for sure the right choice here but I really didn't want to do it. I actually really don't enjoy Nic Fit as a deck, theres situations that feel really terrible that I'm trying to avoid. I'm fairly convinced that I was thoroughly playing the deck incorrectly throughout.
I wanted to run creatures that actually utilized having a lot of lands out besides Ooze. Knight of the Reliquary doesn't work here because they need to be in the GY, and while I -could- utilize reliquary to just burn through my plentiful lands, I don't particularly want to. Wastelocking someone doesn't sound that great when you give them all the basics they need. So I went with Dungrove Elder; with mostly basics and all duals being forests, Dungrove elder should get pretty big pretty quick--tutorable at 4 mana with a nice flexible mana cost. I also decided on Dark Confidant; for one he's a beater, but more importantly since the deck curves out at 3 I can now utilize the land to cast -a lot- of shit rather than one huge thing per turn. One issue I had with Nic Fit was a lack of card advantage, top's helped with filtering but didn't always get there.
Kitchen Finks felt like a good maindeck answer to aggressive decks and functions well with Cabal Therapy. The loss of life of bob and fetches is being dealt with by Ooze and Finks. Qasali Pridemage's should be pretty obvious here.
In terms of spells, I think they're pretty straight forward.
Kich Fit:
3x Scavenging Ooze
3x Dungrove Elder
4x Dark Confidant
4x Veteran Explorer
2x Qasali Pridemage
2x Ulvenwald Tracker
1x Sylvan Safekeeper
1x Gaddock Teeg
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Vindicate
3x Bayou
2x Savannah
4x Verdant Catacomb
3x Windswept Heath
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Horizon Canopy
5x Forest
2x Swamp
1x Plains
I don't want to hammer out a sideboard just yet but Thalia will be there in some large number. The Pulse/Vindicate split seems sketchy. I may want to do a 3/1 split. Sometimes being able to kill a problematic land is nice which is kind of why I wanted 2. However Pulse answers a -lot- of shit and is a little easier for the deck to cast. As you can see the deck takes a lot of influence from The Rock, Nic Fit, and Maverick.
One of the only real issues I have with the deck is that I feel UW Miracles will rape me. I'll have to find tech against that. Thalia may be all that's required--boarding in thalia's over Explorer's and forgoing ramp for disruption.
seems to me you could use.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kich867
Life/death + garruk
Glissa, the traitor + exsecutioners capsule
Eternal witness + unearth
Is there a reason that you play 2 Gaddock Teeg? Is it because of the Miracle match up? I mean they don't really work with GSZ and you don't always play against Miracle. So why not just 1 you can tutor for when really needed and another 1 or 2 in your sideboard. You could swap one for a single Witness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kich867
All of this seems terrible for what Kich wants to do. By his own admission, he wants to stay away from these types of cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by KMS
I DO think that a 1-of Eternal Witness would be fine, just as a Zenith target rather than all-in recursion engine as in traditional Fit.
I'm not sure 2 Finks are going to be sufficient lifegain to make up for the Bobs, especially without Tops. I do like the approach you're using to build the deck, and I do think it very much fits in with the rest of its brothers and sisters as a member of the archetype. A few more thoughts:
Tusk would be good vs Miracles, and would give you a "bomb." It's also not terrible with Bob because you'll gain the life you take from flipping him right back, and most of the time you'll have either already grabbed him or he won't flip off of Bob. That said, I think that you can do better for lifegain options.
-) You're running a -lot- of creatures. While I don't think that Sword of Light and Shadow is what you want (the white half would encourage you to not grow Ooze). What about stealing Maverick's tech and running a 2-of Jitte?
-) Alternatively, you could easily sneak a few Stoneforges in, for like a Feast/Famine and a Jitte.
-) You aren't running Deed. This means you can take advantage of some good cards that we can't usually, like Bitterblossom. That might be a little TOO much cutting, but Blossom is a hell of a card, and it does fit the philosophy of the deck. It just gets raped by our own Deeds, which is (one reason) why we don't run it.
-) 2 Teegs?
-) What about Sylvan Safekeeper or Ulvenwald Tracker? Safekeeper gives you a use for your extra land by turning them into one-shot Mother of Runes activations for Teeg/Ooze/etc, and Ulvenwald can acts as removal since Ooze and Dungrove will actually act as sources of fat that don't cost 6 and aren't used primarily because of their abilities.
-) Looking at your mana base, I think that 3-1 Pulse-Vindicate is perfectly acceptable and probably preferable. Most lands you need to kill are slow cards that are corner cases or tutor targets anyway, so you'll have plenty of time to find the Vindicate. Killing multiples is usually more relevant.
As far as sb -- if you land Safekeeper + Teeg, you beat Miracles. Literally. Safekeeper should at least be in the board IMO. Since you're on the Teeg plan, you don't want Tsunami. Your deck's curve also means that you're subject to CB-lock, so some Krosan Grips would be a good idea. That'll also help vs Omnitell, which is another matchup I see you having trouble with. Maybe Arena of the Ancients? Primarily only useful vs Show, but vs Sneak you'll have Grip.....
Actually, what about Pithing Needle? Without Deed you don't have to worry about it dying. Needle on Jace, Sneak, problem lands, KotR, Fauna Shaman, or whatever else is giving you a problem would be pretty good. I'd say that overall you want ~8-12 cards of your board able to be brought in vs combo of various types, some of which is probably also graveyard hate (Extirpates?). You probably want a few cards dedicated to miracles, and a few for Maverick and RUG. As the deck looks right now, I worry about your RUG matchup a good deal. Ooze is good, but he's not going to get there by himself.
====
Also, putting our versions in our sigs is a good idea.
No offense but you really just built the rock minus the late game power of KotR. And why does it matter if you have lands in your GY? You aren't eating those. Just my thought. You built a combination of Nic Fit and the Rock but you don't abuse Nic Fits engine with lots of mana, and you don't have the disruption of the rock.
If I'm picturing the flow of the game correctly in my head, it actually isn't just a "worse rock." The acceleration of the Explorer engine allows for Kich's deck to spew out cards much faster than what a rock deck would be able to. Ie being able to draw 3 cards a turn and play all of them. It'll have a much faster pace than traditional Rock.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
What I worry about therein, though, is that it's very, very reliant on Dark Confidant as I see it unfolding. Confidant is its sole draw engine, and it has very little card quality and no card advantage outside of that. If Bob sits there unchecked, however, Kich's deck is just gonna go fucking nuts. It's not going to choke on 5 and 6 drops where you can only play one card a turn. It probably wants a backup source of card draw, like Arena. Could try Sylvan, but that'll hurt pretty quickly.
Dungrove is POSSIBLY better than KotR here, as well, due to the ramp of the Veterans. He'll get big fast, and he has built in protection.
@Arianrhod,
The Titan/Unburial/Nightmare/Palinchron pile has a major and a minor problem with it. The minor being that Sun Titan requires WW to cast, which is often hard to get in 4colors with only Unburial Rites to abuse it. The major being that the loop creates unlimited mana, but without an Oracle or a Witness, it will not produce unlimited draws or Gifts in order to find Kokusho.
I also thought about a 1/1 split between Gifts/Intuition but I dismissed it because Gifts was plainly superior. Adding 1 mana to a spell for an extra tutor is nothing to scoff at either. I would only play Intuition > Gifts if the deck primarily was a combo deck and going off was its priority. As it turns out, going for a combo-centric approach that requires 7 lands in play isn't the best strategy, therefore I maintain the card offering the most powerful effect for a Control/Aggro/Combo deck (in that order) should hold priority.
@Kich867,
Losing the strength of Deeds and focusing on targeted removal makes Mother of Runes good again. I believe maverick shouldn't have any trouble giving you hell.
I just feel like this deck is trying to be the rock much more than it is trying to be nic fit. Also you don't really g over the top in any way. Dungrove is probably really good, however it is just a vanilla guy who can get chumped all day for no value. losing the flexibility of KotR is rough. While you will be able to swarm the board sometimes, you arent any faster than any of the tribal decks in the format.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
ww to cast should not be a real problem though its not as easy to get as GUB sources.
You can therapy yourself or use gigapede so it goes to the graveyard
With unlimited mana cHances are great that you already have at least either one gitaxian probe, intuition, gifts, intent or which ever draw you play.
If that is the package you choose with gifts, you win. Else your package has not been the correct one in that game state.
iop100
Just wanted to chime in with the Teeg talk that I played him x1 maindeck in my most recent tournament and thought he was great. As far as actual game play, he stopped a miracled Temporal Mastery that surely would've won the game. I'll be continuing to play him mainboard since he gives assistance against difficult matchups.
He might stop our own GSZ so if drawn he has to be carefully played with, but that's it. He stops no other spell in our mainboard. He also stops dangerous, game ending cards such as:
-Terminus
-Entreat the Angels
-Hive Mind
-Sneak Attack
-Opposing GSZ -> Scavenging Ooze
-Charbelcher/Empty the Warrens
-Force of Will
All cards we have trouble dealing with, along with several others that are quite annoying such as Batterskull (after you deal with the Mystic) and Jace. Also, not to say that FoW is a game ending card, but that we can easily outpace most soft countermagic and if we can stop FoW it gives them no counter to a hard cast Grave Titan.
Another way to put it is that even though he stops GSZ, that doesn't stop Maverick from running him as well.
When I was running just the GB version I ran him as a 1 of mainboard Green Sun Target. He is just great against so many decks that beat us.
The list originally had 1 teeg in it, though a friend of mine (exceedingly good UW stoneblade / miracle player) recommended a second for redundant copies. But I agree, I'd only ever really want to fetch him.
I like the idea of sylvan safekeeper and tracker. I could see them taking up the second teeg and kitchen finks slots. It was mentioned to me that recurring removal would really set this deck over the top and Fightbear is probably the best way to do it.
@ Megadeus: if you read my previous posts I pre-emptively suggested that that response was a likely occurrence. The deck is not, however, The Rock. The Rock has a different gameplan at it's core.
@ Knight of the Reliquary: To do what? This deck won't run their toolbox of lands and Wasteland seems exceedingly useless to me. It can make itself arbitrarily large at a rate significantly slower than an Ooze could make it arbitrarily small.
@ Sweepers: Sweepers in this deck seems bad. However, Virtue's Ruin is quite a real card against Maverick. Running Dungrove Elder's presents me with a creature that is already immune to spot removal, is very large, and bypasses Virtue's Ruin. Sideboard for sure.
@ Draw engine: Bob and GSZ are enough. There are extremely few decks in legacy that actually draw cards and not just cantrip. Goblins and Dark Confidant are some of the only that I can think of; Jace is, but only if you intend to brainstorm with him every turn.
@ RUG: I don't believe RUG has an answer to Dungrove Elder outside of Force and running 7 virtual copies of it makes it hard to keep that up, Oozes make mongoose and goyf small, with the addition of fightbear my Elder's and Ooze's can kill their delvers and goyfs. With generally no basics and no means of exiling Veteran Explorer, I'll outpace them in mana rapidly.
Criticism's duly noted. Safekeeper seems good, Tracker seems very good. Updated list with relevant suggestions.
Do take note that you are changing aweakness from graveyard hate to sweepers lke perish / natures ruin / terminus.
Ooze is a great card but I think dungrove elder is a bit like terravore. Big dumb beater without utility. However, I havent tested him so can't say too much. Hex proof is really good tho.
Also, you currently seem a bit weak to flyers. If tempo can keep ooze away, they can easily race you with a delver and some burn. Finks is nice but they just let it live andwait for your confidant to do the rest of the damage. The match can go either way but I don't think it's favorable (nothing is really favorable against rug though). I'd test this match a lot since its a very popular deck. Also I would not run thragtusk with confidant. You are on 8, flip tusk, cast it, Bolt in response, GG. You are on 5.. Err, crap, no brainstorm. You are on 15 flip tusk, go to 10, walk into a daze or fow, delver bolt snap bolt
Does your deck really suddenly suck if you add a minor graveyard theme to it? I'd say you'd improve the deck because if they sideboard against you they are not beating your overall strategy but a minor,mbut powerful gambit in your deck. Foregoing graveyard cards just because they use the graveyard sounds like running bad creatures because they belong to a certain tribe. Dontfrget that goblins use Thalia sometimes, and affinity uses Sfm sometimes. I'd keep a close eye to rtr because the scavenge ability seems pretty strong for your deck with dungrove and therapy. Keep your eyes open and don't say no to graveyard interactionms before evaluating them appropriately is my advice.
I don't believe I mentioned that, I was just saying that I don't intend to implement much graveyard interaction to the deck. The point is that when you heavily rely on graveyard interactions you're open to the most common form of hate. Cabal Therapy and Scavenge are one thing, but cards like Life From the Loam for instance is rampantly weak to graveyard hate and you sort of have to build around it. I'm saying: "I don't intend to build around graveyard interactions."Quote:
Originally Posted by bruizar
I do believe scavenge will be a wonderful welcome to this deck. The 3 mana 3/3 haste with scavenge isn't actually a terrible guy.
And yes, decks that involve creatures are often weak to board wipes. Maverick is a deck that is all but ~12-15 cards creatures/land. And 4 of those ~12-15 put creatures into play. What deck that wins with a dude isn't weak to Terminus?
Pointing out the flaws in card types (IE: creatures can die) isn't particularly useful here. It's not like these weren't considerations.
Well I'm back mostly.
I do need to post an updated GBW list that I plan on taking to a tourney this weekend but I will get to that tomorrow, it's late now :P
I just wanted to pose a question:
For the Scapeshift version (or jund PFire too I guess): what does an up to date look like and what are the thought behind utilizing Bonfire of the Damned?
I've seen the other miracles do work in Legacy and Bonfire is arguably the most powerful if you can get enough mana, but the only deck I can ever see having enough mana to abuse it is Nic Fit. Seems like it could fit in the red versions?
Just a thought for now.
I play bonfire in Godo mud as a 2/3 off. The card is great for me there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kung Fu English