[Deck] Manaless Ichorid

Force of Will does a lot more than you give it credit for, it's really important vs the aggro-combo match ups like Elves and Affinity where countering their combo pieces is game winning as well as in the linear combo match ups like Belcher/Warrens, Hermit Druids, SI and to a lesser extent TES where they'll never guess you're playing Force of Will MD with Cabal Therapy.

You say it doesn't make a difference in half of the match ups in the field, but making a difference in the other half of the match ups in the field is actually a really big fucking deal because those matchs ups have strategy superiority against us.

I have no problem with Chancellor of the Annex in the MD and Force of Will in the SB, if your metagame is inbred with Deathrite Shamans it's the right choice.

Metagame matters, there's a ton of cheap combo decks on MTGO so that's probably a huge influence on my personal thinking.

I'd never play the Bloodghast list without Chancellor of the Annex, Edge of Autumn is a terrible, terrible card. I don't know if you saw the fetchland list I posted a couple pages back, but that could actually deal with hate altho' it'd invoke the double time walk.

I agree with what you say about metagames, mine has an absurd amount of DRS and decks which don't care about FoW, except elves maybe. Force is definitely the best choice to rape SI, Belcher and All Spells.

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

I'd never play the Bloodghast list without Chancellor of the Annex, Edge of Autumn is a terrible, terrible card. I don't know if you saw the fetchland list I posted a couple pages back, but that could actually deal with hate altho' it'd invoke the double time walk.

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I know edge is weird and everything, that's just raw data collected from testing. It might be just luck, but it seems to have a decent storm matchup. Yeah, i've seen it, i meant without timewalking.

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Originally Posted by Hollywood

Forced Rest in Peaces all night yesterday.
Played Force main.
Shit's legit.

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

Force of Will does a lot more than you give it credit for....

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I think this is the main thought I can take from the last two pages of this thread.

I'm enjoying Force > not just for killing combo pieces etc., (as we don't often get one in our intial grip of 7), but it's because once an opponent see's you dredge a force into the yard, they'll be forced to consider whether you have one in hand.
Do they play tight? Do they go all-in? Do they make a play without a counter back-up?
An opponent playing tight can possibly give us more time......

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Originally Posted by Thrasher

(metagames)... mine has an absurd amount of DRS....

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Me too.
Sucks doesn't it?


Yeah I can't see a reason not to run Force in the main.
Last wknd I ran it out of the side, hoping to use it as a surprise (it worked amazingly), but It's just too good not to run in the main, especially VS everything.
Consider me converted.

What's the point of playing Force of Will main when you already win 90% of your game 1? the surprise factory of Force of Will in the sideboard (even if this surprise will disappear in the future if as we all hope this version will start to top8 more) is better imho than spare wins against "random decks" like Belcher or All Spells.

I started recently to play manaless dredge, just in time for the Thrasher epic innovation of Force of Will/Disrupting Shoal to fight hate (that it seems is the better innovation this deck had from 2011 when it was born, i indeed choose a good time to pick up this deck...) and i'm really liking Force of Will for what i does, countering graveyard hate g2 and g3; we all know it's a good card vs "everything", but do we really need it main? i'm not so sure about it; cmon, do ANT/Belcher/All Spells are really so prevalent in your meta/the general meta? watching results from GP Paris, the answer seems NO.

Does it improve any matchup? I know forcing stuff is cool, but if the vast majority of the decks i face doesn't have anything that can threaten me in g1 why should i use Force? Why should i care about countering a Stoneforge Mystic when i can easily race it?(just a random example) I prefer having additional consistency in grindy matchups, such as miracles and thopters.

I don't think Force MD is a bad idea, but i think it's highly meta-dependent. If lands/elves/glass-cannon combo are popular in a certain metagame, playing FoW maindeck is probably the best choice, otherwise i prefer leaving them in my sideboard.

For anybody considering Forceless build (for budget reasons), I am getting somewhat decent results with this. I love Unmask, preSB it gives you some sort of weapon against Storm along with Therapies and Chancellors, comboes well with not needed Phantasm, lets you discard a dredger when you need it, secure your DR minute before it goes off or spies opponent's hand for solid Therapy or two.

Powder on the other hand helps after SB when you need to get a specific card soon (Leyline against Burn, Macabre or part of antihate etc). No Dryads as I decided against Reverent Silence (need to fight both Cage and RiP with already nine cards). I know it is not perfect but does the job for me (until I get hold of FoW's).

MD
4x Golgari Grave Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Golgari Thug
4x Phantasmagorian
4x Nether Shadow
4x Ichorid
4x Chancellor of the Annex
4x Narcomoeba
4x Street Wraith
2x Griselbrand
Flayer of the Hatebound
Ashen Rider

4x Bridge from Below
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Dread Return
4x Unmask
4x Serum Powder

SB:
3x Leyline of Sanctity
3x Faerie Macabre
4x Nature's Claim
4x Wooded Foothills
1x Forest

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Originally Posted by Barsoom

What's the point of playing Force of Will main when you already win 90% of your game 1? the surprise factory of Force of Will in the sideboard (even if this surprise will disappear in the future if as we all hope this version will start to top8 more) is better imho than spare wins against "random decks" like Belcher or All Spells.

I started recently to play manaless dredge, just in time for the Thrasher epic innovation of Force of Will/Disrupting Shoal to fight hate (that it seems is the better innovation this deck had from 2011 when it was born, i indeed choose a good time to pick up this deck...) and i'm really liking Force of Will for what i does, countering graveyard hate g2 and g3; we all know it's a good card vs "everything", but do we really need it main? i'm not so sure about it; cmon, do ANT/Belcher/All Spells are really so prevalent in your meta/the general meta? watching results from GP Paris, the answer seems NO.

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Force of Will kind of fits the bill that Dryad Arbor does: it alleviates sideboard space so you don't have to jam eight to twelve cards into your deck post-board - keeping the deck's primary focus intact. Force is just good on its own and has much more utility than stopping combo in its tracks; it's a hard-counter. That's what it does. It stops key spells from resolving, so you can't look at it from a narrow perspective in the sense that it's only strictly good against Belcher or O!ASs.

Also, the GP meta across the sea is different than the one where I play, where Force is actually good. Look at Miracles: some builds still do rock RiP main. But it doesn't matter - it's in a subjective utility spot open for interpretation.

I've got some tech lined up for the Qualifier...should be awesome.

Here we all are expecting for your list hollywood aa to see when you show it to the rest of mortal XD

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Originally Posted by Barsoom

What's the point of playing Force of Will main when you already win 90% of your game 1?

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If you win 90% of game1, I can see why you'd say Force isn't needed in the main. But I'm not that lucky.

I happen to have a favourable game1 %, but I still lose against Storm/Combo regularly, and there are decks out there with RiP maindeck.
Force main allows us to better our game1 win % > it's important, given that fighting hate postboard can be hit and miss.

1-0.

Disrupting Shoal pwned Surgical Extraction.

2-0.

Beat DnT. Shoal dominated.

Go holly go
Waiting for my shoal in my mailbox !!

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Originally Posted by P-E

Go holly go
!

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Shoal FTW!

Go, Hollywood!

Haha, I love the streaming updates. Keep us updated as you go :p

5-2.

Shoal countered:

1x SFM
2x Cage
4x RiP

Force countered:

2x Cage
2x RiP
1x Reanimate
1x Infernal Tutor
1x SFM

One more round.

Who was ultimately your deck list hollywood?

6-2 - just beat Sneak and Show.

Came in 13th out of 173!

Expect a report!