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I think it definitely stands a chance with a few "this card is better" upgrades. Liliana instead of Bottomless Pit, the Rack instead of Pauper's Cage. Looks like it'd be worth it in an aggro meta. No Inquisition or Hymns mean auto-lose in combo matches. Phyrexian Furnace?! :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
Question for OmniStrata, but anyone is more than welcomed to answer it.
I've been playing Pox for a few months now, and currently I'm using Duress. I'm looking to upgrade it to a better card and saw that you're using Inquisition of Kozilek. Is there a reason you're using that instead of Thoughtseize, or maybe a 2/2 split between the two?
My reasons for not starting out with Thoughtseize is the price, but I'm looking to get one at a time till I have the set.
Here's my deck list, if that makes any difference:
My current list, if it makes a difference:
// Lands - 25
1 Cabal Pit (looking on possibly cutting this)
4 Mishra's Factory
12 Swamp
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
// Creatures - 1
1 Nether Spirit
// Instants - 4
4 Dark Ritual (looking to cut to 3)
// Sorceries - 21
4 Duress (I'd either like 4 Thoughtseizes or a 2/2 split with IoK)
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Innocent Blood
1 Pox
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
// Artifacts - 9
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Cursed Scroll
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Pithing Needle
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 The Rack (I keep wanting to cut this, but it has helped wittle down a lot of my opponents life)
// Planeswalkers - 2
2 Liliana of the Veil (I would like to run 1 more)
// Sideboard
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 2 Helm of Obedience
SB: 2 Inquisition of Kozilek
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
SB: 1 Perish
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Raven's Crime
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Vengeful Pharaoh
SB: 1 Virtue's Ruin
***I can't decide on a solid 15***
What is everyone's thoughts on Diabolic Edict in either the MB or SB?
Edit: Added my deck list
Inquisition of Kozilek over Thoughtseize is usually because the life loss is very critical. I have won a lot of games at 3 or less life that I would have lost if IoK was Thoughtseize. IoK is also great for Pox because we are attacking their mana base so if you are smallpoxing, sinkholeing, and wastelanding them they will probably never get to play a 4 mana spell. Especially with Liliana and Hymn to clean up the rest of their hand. If you are looking for an additional 1 mana spell may I suggest Cabal Therapy. It interacts favorably with Bloodghasts or Nether Spirits and even Mishra's Factory. I play G/B Pox and have even more awesome interactions because of Entomb.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nik842
This is an excellent explanation.Quote:
Originally Posted by jredelstein
In the past I have also used Mire's Toll due to card availability issues but Inquisition is definitely the best 1-mana discard for this deck.
Thoughtseize isn't worth it for a deck that hacks its own life totals down. Not even a 2/2 split. In fact, I rather you 2/2 Inquisition with Duress. Duress is still good in that it hits counterspells, combo win conditions, and exiling removal, but it won't hit crucial cards like mana dorks. God I hate mana dorks. After my prior tourney, I'm thinking of squeezing in Duress since a combo/control meta has a lot of 4+ cmc spells that are cheated in. Only time will tell...Quote:
Originally Posted by Nik842
Ditch the Pithing Needles for 4 Liliana of the Veil. You won't regret it. Ensnaring Rack combos too well if your Liliana is left alone. In which case, I'd consider a Bottomless Pit or 2 when they stick a Pithing Needle up her !@#$. Cabal Pit could be kept with Crucible. Having Cabal, Mishra's, Wasteland and Tabernacle come back each time they are sacced/destroyed is awesome. If you're cutting Cabal, I'd suggest cutting Crucible too.
For your sideboard, Pox's greatest weapon (lol), I'd recommend 4-6 swarm stoppers, 4-5 GY hate, and the rest would be a mix of Pithing Needle and your meta guess. Diabolic Edict could save your ass when an Emrakul gets hardcast with Omniscience. Happened to me enough times to make me mad. :mad:
Hi everyone,
Long time lurker, first time poster. I was hoping to get some feedback on a black/red pox list I've been messing with.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/06-08-15-burning-plague/
// Lands - 22
4x Badlands
2x Blackcleave Cliffs
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Polluted Delta
2x Mountain
4x Swamp
4x Wasteland
// Creatures - 7
3x Bloodghast
4x Young Pyromancer
// Instants - 4
4x Lightning Bolt
// Sorceries - 22
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Hymn to Tourach
3x Innocent Blood
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Smallpox
// Planeswalkers - 4
4x Liliana of the Veil
// Enchantments - 1
1x Sulfuric Vortex
//Sideboard
3x Pyroblast
2x Pyroclasm
3x Rakdos Charm
1x Sulfuric Vortex
3x Surgical Extraction
3x Terminate
//Maybeboard
1x Blightning
1x Electrickery
1x Forked Bolt
1x Hound of Griselbrand
1x Kolaghan's Command
1x Lavaclaw Reaches
1x Leechridden Swamp
1x Mishra's Factory
1x Rakdos's Return
1x Shambling Remains
1x Spinning Darkness
1x Sudden Shock
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Bloodmoon
I think the main deck is pretty self explanatory. Pyromancer and Cabal Therapy are best friends, and Bloodghast plays along nicely as well. Bolt because it's so good, and Vortex as a non-creature wincon that helps us a lot against Miracles. Probes are there to make Cabal Therapy even better, and trigger Pyromancer, although it might not be worth the life loss.
I'm really not sure about the sideboard. I just threw in the next best black and/or red cards that came to mind.
The maybe cards are all ones that I considered. Some of them are powerful cards from traditional Mono-black like Mishra's factory and Spinning Darkness, which maybe could be worked back in, but it might be too hard with red. Others are cards that only this version would have access to, like Blightning, Shambling Remains, or Forked Bolt. Leechridden Swamp seemed like a really cool idea, since Pox has a problem drawing its win conditions, and this version would be able to fetch them up. Maybe too slow though.
I guess the mission statement behind this deck is to provide Pox with better disruption in Cabal Therapy, better threats in Pyromancer, Bloodghast and Sulfuric Vortex, and access to a wider range of Sideboard cards thanks to the red splash.
I've done little testing, a few games against goblins and UWR stoneblade, and it seems as competent as traditional Pox, but maybe not better.
Also, I'm not sure how to make the manabase. Should I just play more fetches?
I'm curious to see what people's thoughts are!
The only part of this that I can really agree with is that Cabal Therapy is possibly improved disruption.Quote:
I guess the mission statement behind this deck is to provide Pox with better disruption in Cabal Therapy, better threats in Pyromancer, Bloodghast and Sulfuric Vortex, and access to a wider range of Sideboard cards thanks to the red splash.
You aren't going to be generating many tokens with 4 Probes as your only cantrips meaning YP is really just like 3 power worth of guy that doesn't die to your symmetrical edicts, so it's like a slight Chimeric Idol upgrade. The therapy interaction is quite good I guess.
Bloodghast is an aggressive card and Pox is not an aggressive deck. There is a real opportunity cost to playing 7 creatures because you can't play Nether Spirit. You support your decision to play Bloodghast by saying it's a 'better threat', while simultaneously cutting all of the Mishra's Factories, which also attack for 2, add mana, and can block.
Bolt is a good card but why play 4 Bolt and only 3 Innocent Blood? You aren't really killing any PWs with Bolt. You're rarely ever going to be burning out your opponent and if you want solutions to things like YP or Mentor that edicts are bad against then monoblack has answers to those already with Disfigure/Dismember.
Sulfuric Vortex is awful in Pox, it's a 3 mana version of The Rack / Shrieking Affliction that also damages yourself. If you're confident in your ability to get to 3 mana then play Cursed Scroll, which only hits your opponent for 2 and also acts as removal.
The only thing red gives you in your sideboard is artifact hate. Red Blasts are extremely lackluster in this deck because you have infinite hand disruption already anyway and you also have a bunch of edicts to make sure that True-Name Nemesis doesn't stick. When plan A is jam a Liliana and keep using the +1 ability you don't want to be trying to hold reactive cards in your hand. Pyroclasm can be replaced by Dread of Night or Engineered Plague and Terminate is not significantly better than the mono-black options available.
The downside to Leechridden Swamp is not the fact that it isn't tutorable but the fact that you need to control 2 black permanents to activate it. Also Mishra's Factory exists so why not just play that instead.
By my count there are 19 instants/sorceries that are not edicts and net me a token. But I see what you mean. I can't chain cantrips to really abuse Pyromancer. I guess I figured I wouldn't need to if my Pyromancers are the only things surviving on the board, but it's definitely not as impressive as other Pyromancer decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by kombatkiwi
The main reason I wanted Bloodghasts in the deck was because they offer another good interaction with Cabal Therapy, and fetchlands. I kind of figured instant speed removal (Lightning Bolts), and Pyromancers' tokens would cover the defense. So with that in mind, I don't think I miss Nether Spirit. The only reason I cut factories was because I'm unsure how to work out the Manabase. Also getting factories killed in traditional lists feels pretty bad, so it's nice that Bloodghasts get to come back sometimes.Quote:
Originally Posted by kombatkiwi
I didn't want to play as many Innocent bloods because of Pyromancer, but I still wanted to play it because it is still really good. But yeah, I think you're probably right on this one. The more I think about it, the more Spinning Darkness just seems better than bolt in the Mono-black builds.Quote:
Originally Posted by kombatkiwi
The card I cut for Sulfuric Vortex was Pox. I think it's more realistic to compare it to something like that, due to its casting cost and symmetrical effect. A comparison to Cursed Scroll doesn't really seem fair, since Vortex is set it and forget it, and it's not nearly as conditional as Rack/Shrieking Affliction. I was kind of hoping adding bolts would not only skew the Vortex race in my favor, but fill in the spot removal void left from Cursed Scroll. Activating Cursed Scroll every turn isn't even always easy, and just dropping a 3 mana enchantment once and then having mana open to cast other cards you draw seems somewhat better than scroll.Quote:
Originally Posted by kombatkiwi
Everything you said about Red Blasts makes a lot of sense. I guess I wasn't thinking of the overall proactive gameplan of Pox when I put those in. Pyroclasm still seems pretty good to me though if you just need to emergency reset the battlefield, but I suppose it alone is not worth splashing red.Quote:
Originally Posted by kombatkiwi
I guess I was thinking they can't hit Leechridden Swamp with creature/artifact removal, so that's somewhat of an upside. If I did play any, it would just be 1 to fetch up when I needed it. But yeah, the 2 black permanents is actually nearly impossible to make happen in this deck. I didn't even test any to see if it was good, so I'm glad you pointed that out so I don't waste time testing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by kombatkiwi
Alright, well I appreciate you having a look! I've been testing Mono-Black for the Grand Prix in Seattle in November and I got an urge and gave this a try. I meet with a group and play Legacy on Sundays, so I'm gonna take it to that and see how it does. I'd like for it to do well, but I am skeptical. You raise a lot of good points as to why Mono-Black is better, and I'm inclined to mostly believe you. I still think Cabal Therapy is worth playing and threats like Young Pyromancer and Bloodghast, while maybe individually worse than cards like Nether Spirit or Mishra's Factory, push Therapy over the top. I'm still not even completely convinced that they're any worse than the threat suite in Mono-Black Pox. I suppose there's nothing stopping me from just playing Bloodghasts and Cabal Therapy in a Mono-Black deck.
Anyway, thanks for taking the time to look at it!
You don't need self-mill cards and tribal sorceries to make Tarmogoyf good either. YP is enabled by playing the game, that's good enough. You don't have to jump through hoops to enable YP man.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stroggi
I really like your response
One thing I really want to reiterate is how bad Vortex is though. You can't compare Vortex with Pox because Pox shreds a bunch of both players' resources and Vortex is the complete opposite, not trading with any of the opponent's cards and burning out life points instead. When you play Sulfuric Vortex in your Liliana deck you end up being pulled in 2 very different directions gameplay-wise:
[Reid Duke 2013]Quote:
A common pitfall that I see among newer deckbuilders is a draw towards B/R decks that feature both a lot of burn and a lot of Thoughtseize effects. This is natural because black and red are a likely pair according to Magic's flavor and those are among the most iconic effects that each color has to offer.
However, the reality is that Thoughtseize is exactly what a burn deck does not want. The strength of burn is that it's difficult for the opponent to interact with through ordinary means, so if you add Thoughtseize to the deck in the place of a card that would otherwise contribute to your game plan, you're really just giving your opponent exactly what they want—a way to trade off cards against you.
In my experience, such decks are excellent at getting the opponent down to five life but are not the best at actually winning games.
Edit: @bruizar Yes you're right, I just wanted to be clear that it isn't as good in decks that have ponder/brainstorm and without the Therapy interaction YP would not be a card that this deck wants to play.
I have been toying with the idea of a red/black pox deck. I recall having a conversation with Hardcore a few months back. I really like the idea of Boom//Bust (I really like blowing up lands) I also remember listing a bunch of potential R/B card to play. I have also really like Sudden Demise as a sideboard card latelyQuote:
Originally Posted by Stroggi
I think the manabase seems fine, even though you don't have as many colorless lands I may still want to play Urborg over Blackcleave. I like that it allows you tap your fetches for mana and save them for a later bloodghast.
I read a comment that you didn't want to play too many innocent bloods because of Young Pyromancer, just want to make sure you realize that Pyromancer triggers on cast and you sacrifice a creature on resolution so you can sac the newly created token. I still like 4 lightning blots as they are great instant speed removal that clears the way for innocent blood or small pox to kill the bigger guys.
The thing I dislike the most about this list in the creature count, Pox blanks opposing removal by not playing creatures until after they are hellbent, young pyromancer does not fit that bill.
I agree with the comment made that Cursed Scroll is probably better that Sulfuric Vortex, but I don't dislike Vortex entirely I just think it is probably better suited to the sideboard(unless you meta is a bunch of Miracles)
The reason why you want Pox style to be monocolor is 4 fold. [whoa, that's a lot :eek:]
Are you running Wasteland? If so, combined with Smallpox and 1-2 Pox effects means you'll be mana strung a lot if you're playing properly. If you get to land #6, you're not disrupting enough. Unless it's turn 22. Low land counts is bad for a multicolor style. Threshold has Brainstorms and Ponders, we don't.
Fetchlands? You want to blow your own land up with Wastelands, Mishra trades, and Poxes and you DON'T want to draw more lands? :laugh:
BB. Lots of your spells have multiple B requirements. Big Pox being my favorite one. If your enemy is also running Wastelands, your deck becomes that much more vulnerable. Threshold tends to Stifle your fetch and now they've effectively Sinkholed you for U. Getting to that second Swamp to cast your spells becomes harder, in theory.
This one is less important, budget. Some of us may not have the money for Bayou and the like. I've proxied BG, BR, BW, and BU 'forms' of Pox and the chances of winning are not massively increased by splashing a color. That's just the nature of the beast. Even with things like Crucible and Life from the Loam, these cards don't disrupt on their own and have conditions that must be met to really start to generate massive card advantage.
I've always liked the old 'laws' of the original thread. If it doesn't generate mana, deal damage, or disrupt your enemy, it shouldn't be in Pox. Though, I broke that law with a single Crucible of Worlds in my build, which I'm tempted to remove for a 3rd Nether Spirit (he gets to field plowing a lot) or Spinning Darkness/Murderous Cut to keep 2 Nether Spirits from stacking my yard.
That B/R list looks fun though.
A long time ago I was running a pox deck I called Stormpox. It consisted of Storm World, The Rack, Lightning Bolt, Blightning and a Burning Wish board. From what I remember it splashed one Bayou for a SB Reverent Silence, Life from the Loam and Maelstrom Pulse. Other Burning Wish targets I remember were Chain Lightning (Blightning #5), Pox and Pulverize. The deck worked pretty nice but this is years ago.
What I meant by that comment was that I didn't want to max out on Innocent Blood, not because I would have to sacrifice Pyromancers to it, but because it does not net me a token when it is cast. Regardless, YP's interaction with Innocent Blood is one of the main reasons it is in the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by jredelstein
Yeah, through my testing this has been one of the biggest flaws in the deck. Having Pyromancers killed really sucks, so in that regard, Bloodghasts are better. All in all, I don't feel like the high creature count is a problem since I can pitch Ghasts to Smallpox/Liliana when I can't cast them and get them back later. I also try to think of the creatures as a little bit of extra disruption since they work so well with Cabal Therapy. Regardless, I feel much more confident in my ability to expediently close out the game once I have them locked down with Liliana. I can simply do much more damage per turn with these creatures than with the Mono-Black deck I was playing.Quote:
Originally Posted by jredelstein
I think I've been convinced by yourself and kombatkiwi to cut Vortex to the sideboard. I'm gonna keep testing it, but in a lot of games I've played so far, I can't pitch it to Liliana fast enough! Probably cutting Probes would make Vortex more manageable, but for the time being I'll test a 1-1 split between the main deck and the sideboard, and then 2 in the board.Quote:
Originally Posted by jredelstein
Playing BR for Burning wish is not a bad plan, even for non-controlish pox builds. Problem is, as always, that to find that tutor when we need it is hard. Especially when our opponent use cantrips to do so, and is looking not for a tool, but a win-con.
The best option is
probably to use fetchlands for purposes of deception.
I have run Gurmag Angler a few times now. He is easier to cast but can be blocked. The drawback is not that critical against non-token decks.
Hi guys, I played a lot of pox two years ago and ended up trading the cards after that despite having some kind of success with it.
But now I want to get back Poxing, as it is the funniest deck ever to play.
I like the mainboard but I am not 100% sure yet on thing like dark ritual/hymn vs the 7 1cmc discard spell
I am uncertain about the sideboard too. How do you deal with counterbalance, what is your graveyard hate of choice and why ,etc.
My meta consist of basically no delver deck, not many stoneblade, a lot of goblins, lands, sneak and show, reanimator, dredge, MUD.
Here's the list I ran back then, is it still viable today?
4 Dark Ritual
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Innocent Blood
4 Smallpox
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Pox
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Cursed Scroll
2 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Nether Spirit
13 Swamp
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
Sideboard
2 Pithing Needle
3 Engineered Plague
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Trinisphere
2 Ratchet Bomb
4 Leyline of the Void
Peace.
no new cards have been released so your list is up to date.
Only thing is it need to be tweaked for the meta. Many of those decks would be vulnerable to things like maindeck surgical extraction.
Delver and stoneblade is our bread and butter. If I was to play Mono-Black Pox against a meta of one of each of those decks I'd move the 4 Innocent Blood to the side board and maybe a Night of Souls Betrayal to make room for main deck graveyard hate and maindeck pithing needle. This would not be a traditional build but this is not a traditional meta. Lands/Reanimator/Dredge relie heavily on their graveyards and pithing needle should help with Sneak and Show and Lands which are probably your 2 worst match-ups listed. I'd also want to have access to both Night of Souls Betrayal and Engineered Plague in the sideboard both are good against goblins and if you can get one of each down against dredge it should be game over.Quote:
Originally Posted by coricho
I play G/B pox and my graveyard hate is 1 Bojuka Bog with 3 crop rotations main and a second bojuka bog and 2 extirpates sideboard. I also have access to Abrupt Decay and Pernicious Deed for Counterbalace I also have Golgari Charm but I don't use it against Miracles
i can see that you're still running the old reid duke list, you're list is almost exactly like mine..Quote:
Originally Posted by coricho
doesn't seem like a good environment for pox to me, remember that we prey on tempo and creature strategies like delver and elves..
sneak and show, reanimator, dredge, MUD are tough matchups for pox..especially reanimator and dredge..
but your sideboard seems to cover all decks that you mentioned so i guess you'd be fine..