[Primer] Nic Fit

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Originally Posted by Leshrac82

Ok, that's fair - maybe it is slightly closer to 12post than to NicFit, but i think it's somewhere in the middle. This seems to be my big problem to find more players to play this deck: It's too much like a 12post deck for NicFit players, and it's too much like a NicFit deck for 12post players, and so most players either don't even want to try it, or even if they are very good with either NicFit or 12post might lack the experience to be successful with this. I played a ton of games with this and earlier versions, and when i started that i didn't have any real experience with either 12post or NicFit, so i had to figure out what worked best without prior experience (and as a result, whenever i try a real 12post or NicFit deck, it doesn't really work for me).

Maybe i just need to put up more relevant results with it. I finally opened a Magic Online account today, just have to get the cards now, that will probably take a few days. If things work out i can maybe get some results in Magic Online leagues. If things don't work out i probably just burned some money - it definitely feels a little risky, since neither 12post nor NicFit put up any results on Magic Online, but i guess we will see.

Lingering Souls out of the sideboard just keeps overperforming for me. The main reason it is so good: Nobody expects it, they usually expect one big creature. Souls have killed a lot of Planeswalkers for me, they buy time against creatures including Delver, and occasionally they have killed an opponent for me. Titania is good for similar reasons, with the added option to bring back an important land when i really need it (usually Eye of Ugin when i have a lot of mana and that's already gone) and in general more synergy with the rest of the deck.

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Yeah. Souls was also great at stopping Diabolic Edicts out the wazoo from Czech Pile, which are typically very good against this sort of deck, since it likes to go tall rather than wide. Titania honestly was great even just as a nuclear deterrent for Wasteland.

I do think that the deck falls into a strange / unique place for its playstyle requirements, and I honestly think that is most of my issue with it -- partially an unwillingness to start over with something "new," and partially a lack of comfort in the tools employed. Pernicious Deed is a warm, fuzzy blanket to me anymore and I'm loathe to leave it behind -- I messed around with a couple other decks recently, and all of them were having issues with TNN. I was talking to a friend about that the other day -- it's amazing how "yeah, that's life," he was about True-Name. I was like, shouldn't you like...have answers to this? And apparently most of the format thinks it's fine that if True-Name resolves, you just flat out have to race it or sustain through it somehow. It just dumbfounded me to realize how much easier of a time we have with TNN than most of the rest of the format.

I'll definitely be interested to hear how your development goes, though -- please keep us posted. Just because there are those of us old dogs who can't/won't learn new tricks doesn't mean that newer generations of Nic Fit players wouldn't find merit in your work -- just gotta get to them before they become too set in their ways, I guess!

I think the hybrid nic fit 12 post build has some interesting things going. If nothing else it puts the normal nic fit into a different perspective for me. I'm trying out a rhino build again with some of the tech from the hybrid build.

Good luck with magic online and keep us posted!

I used to lurk on this thread for a while and just came back and read a bunch to catch up (from ~13, I skipped a bunch but read the diabolic intent stuff and then skipped to the end around the beginning of C17 spoilers). I also haven't played legacy in a while (I went to Louisville [5-3-1] and then played probably 15 games between that and the end of the semester) but I was inspired by what I read to make some changes to my old list and ask what you all think.

Old List (post GP):
MD (61)
Creatures (20)
Arbor
2 Deathrite
4 Vet
ScOoze
Teeg
2 Voice of Resurgence
E Wit
Finks
Tireless Tracker
Murderous Redcap
2 Rhino
Sigarda
Thrag
Prime Time

Other Spells
2 Deed
Nissa, VF
4 GSZ
4 Therapy
2 AD
2 Path
4 Pod

Lands (22 + Arbor)
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
Scrubland
Karakas
P Tower
Stronghold
3 Verdant
4 Heath
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains

SB
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Surgical
2 StP
2 Thoughtseize
QPM
Faerie Macabre
Orzhov Pontiff
Rec Sage
Shriekmaw
Grave Titan
Massacre Wurm


New List:
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/abzan-fitpod/
(This includes all the rationales for every change since I made the deck)
Tl;dr
-1 Pod
-1 Teeg
-1 AD
+2 Intent
+1 Vindicate

There were a number of MUs where Pod was pretty bad or really good but the deck is somewhat reliant on it. With Miracles transformation I don't think MD Teeg is as necessary although maybe I'm wrong because it's still good against ANT.... Now that I'm thinking about it, Teeg might come back in the MD soon... He's moving to the SB for now. As for Intent, a lot of talk on the Source was that Intent frequently ended up forcing you to sac 'real' creatures, but as this is a pod list, 1st it plays a lot more creatures and 2nd you're pretty okay with most of those creatures dying. 2x Intent is what I'm going to try for now. It can find pod when pod is good and it can find silver bullets too which typically had to be creatures or be in multiple copies since I don't play any actual draw spells. And now that I have 2 intent I'm moving 1 AD to be a vindicate as it is more versatile.

SB:
-1 Wurm
+1 Teeg
Teeg is still good when he's good and Wurm was too hard to cast and I couldn't pod into it quickly enough to matter.

Other thoughts:
I want MD QPM or rec sage but don't know what to cut and Canonist is something I want to add to the SB so I can grab it w/Inent but idk if that'd be too slow and I'm not sure what I'd cut for that either.

I go back to school in a week or so and then I can start jamming some games hopefully.

I've also been working on a Post hybrid build trying to capitalize on Ancient Stirrings. Still very much a work in progress but I'll try to post a list and some thoughts next week once I get another event in. I can't help but feel there's something there.

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

This result is an important step, for sure, but I don't think that we can really justify rewriting the primer when we have very little to effectually say at this point. It feels that we're still very much trying to find things that will work with Top gone at this point. It doesn't help that the "best" lists from pre-Top are basically stalled out dead in the water post-Top. I've tried and tried and tried to get Sneak working again and it just flat out...won't. I've tested with several BUG variants, as well as Sneak variants, on modo, and they just stall out and die.

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I currently have 2 lists for BUG Fit, 1 for a meta with plenty of TES and other for meta with more grindy BUG decks. On paper Magic it has been doing great and my other friend on BUG fit did quite well in our recent FNM with a BUG build slanted towards destroying fair and prison decks.

MTGO Fit (the one for meta with plenty of TES)

14 Creature
1 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Baleful Strix
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Grave Titan

5 Planeswalker
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Nissa, Vital Force

18 Spell
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Fatal Push
2 Gitaxian Probe
2 Ponder
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Force of Will

2 Enchantment
2 Pernicious Deed

21 Land
2 Bayou
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Forest
2 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Fatal Push
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Krosan Grip
1 Dread of Night
1 Null Rod
1 Engineered Plague

Paper Fit (for paper events)

15 Creature
1 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Baleful Strix
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Thragtusk
1 Grave Titan

4 Planeswalker
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Nissa, Vital Force

18 Spell
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Fatal Push
2 Gitaxian Probe
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Ponder
2 Abrupt Decay

2 Enchantment
2 Pernicious Deed

21 Land
2 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Sideboard
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Planeswalkers
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Fatal Push
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 Null Rod
3 Force of Will
1 Dread of Night
1 Engineered Plague

Loss of top was painful, Night's Whisper, Painful Truths and its ilk really do not cut it as they are bulky and inefficient. Personally I feel we are just gimping ourselfs by not playing into Blue for Brainstorm and Ponder while we durdle with such clunky sources of Card Draw. BUG Fit is still very new to me but its power is undeniable where the main game plan is simply 1 → Ramp & Discard disruption 2 → Slam a walker and ride to victory.

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

I messed around with a couple other decks recently, and all of them were having issues with TNN. I was talking to a friend about that the other day -- it's amazing how "yeah, that's life," he was about True-Name. I was like, shouldn't you like...have answers to this? And apparently most of the format thinks it's fine that if True-Name resolves, you just flat out have to race it or sustain through it somehow. It just dumbfounded me to realize how much easier of a time we have with TNN than most of the rest of the format.

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Nic Fit was my first deck eons back when I first started Legacy. TNN is a problem? Add TNN to deck! Same for JTMS is a problem? Add JTMS to deck! The game play of cantrip into ramp/discard/defender/walker every single game has allowed me to ride all my games to victory except for times I felt over confident and punted. It is amazing that every loss I had, I could just blame it on myself and my sloppy or overconfident play.

So my advice to fellow Nic Fitters, unless you are on the overwhelmingly focused strategy like Rector Fit, Post Fit or other Combo variants like Sneaky Fit / Scapewish Fit just add Blue
→ Stop struggling with garbage choices of CA/Card Selection, play blue play what the enemy has been playing for so long and so well ala Brainstorm & Ponder
→ Since we are in Blue we get to also add in training wheels for Therapy, Gitaxian Probe. For the masters of Nic Fit for so long, we already know what to call. Adding perfect information to Therapy calls make us just so much more meaner.
→ From the beginning of the release of Worldwake, we hate JTMS. Add blue play JTMS of our own and let the blue opponent despair. Their decks are not built to slam JTMS as plan A while BUG Fit is. We are the JTMS deck, we will crush the other fair blue decks with a deck built to win via JTMS!
→ We always had consistency issues and relied insanely on Top for filtering. By adding overpowered Blue cantrips, we solve the top problem for card quality (I heard Brainstorm and fetchlands are like peanut butter & jam) and we also make our singletons in MB/SB so much stronger. No more do we just rely on GSZ alone! Less dammit I did not draw my hate/that card vs Elf else I would had closed the game/stabalised. We also get to add Null Rod, a surprisingly strong card vs all the Blade nonsense and artifact mana.
→ Gets to play Fow, nuff said

:laugh:

Edit for spelling

But that means I need a set of UG fetches, 2 Deltas and a Tropical Island and an Underground Sea... And all the blue toys, to boot.

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Originally Posted by Echelon

But that means I need a set of UG fetches, 2 Deltas and a Tropical Island and an Underground Sea... And all the blue toys, to boot.

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Dammit Echelon I know! I tried extensively on MTGO before acquiring the paper duals. Deltas from KTK are sorta cheap and Misty is quite cheap after the MM3 reprint. IMHO the 1st Tropical Island is a must have. Watery Graves & Breeding Pools are acceptable, heck even Lumbering Falls was MVP in my friend's deck in his matchup vs Standstill Control!

The other problems with BUG fit are the same ones it has had for years:

- Extremely slow at ending the game - no real Zenith targets that actually kill people for less than six mana (though Tireless Tracker helps), and JTMS takes a long time to finish the game. He's also way less good in a list that doesn't play as many counterspells to protect him.

- Awful matchups against aggressive decks. You don't get the stabilizing strength of Stoneforge or Rhino, your clock is extremely slow giving them time to draw more burn for reach. Strix helps but all the card advantage (and cantrips) is just dead in these matchups and you'll regularly die before you can stabilize.

- By cutting Zeniths for cantrips, you're way more vulnerable to Chalice and you are a lot less likely to be able to find a turn 1-2 Explorer (meaning you can't ramp into haymakers anywhere near as consistently, even with cantrips). Your haymaker density also goes down a lot and your lategame loses a lot of power, since Zenith shuffles back in increasing your odds of topdecking powerful cards over time.

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Originally Posted by Navsi

The other problems with BUG fit are the same ones it has had for years:

- Extremely slow at ending the game - no real Zenith targets that actually kill people for less than six mana (though Tireless Tracker helps), and JTMS takes a long time to finish the game. He's also way less good in a list that doesn't play as many counterspells to protect him.

- Awful matchups against aggressive decks. You don't get the stabilizing strength of Stoneforge or Rhino, your clock is extremely slow giving them time to draw more burn for reach. Strix helps but all the card advantage (and cantrips) is just dead in these matchups and you'll regularly die before you can stabilize.

- By cutting Zeniths for cantrips, you're way more vulnerable to Chalice and you are a lot less likely to be able to find a turn 1-2 Explorer (meaning you can't ramp into haymakers anywhere near as consistently, even with cantrips). Your haymaker density also goes down a lot and your lategame loses a lot of power, since Zenith shuffles back in increasing your odds of topdecking powerful cards over time.

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This sums it up perfectly, and it's the reason I abandoned BUG colors. Without real counterspells/cantrips this isn't a real blue deck, but a (although very, very grindy) midrange deck that struggles against a lot of decks, and has not a real free win like rhino used to have with delver for example. The only thing blue gives us is a real weakness to the ubiquitous red blasts effects and a shaky manabase that make the deck more vulnerable against decks like 8 moon which would be nearly a free win otherwise for nic fit.
The only blue GSZ'able dude blue offers is Leovold, but he was not worth it in my opinion: without counterspells as protection he acts like a bad tireless tracker in my experience.
The more I play the more I think that in the post-top worls the best nic fit is the BG one.

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Originally Posted by Navsi

The other problems with BUG fit are the same ones it has had for years:

- Extremely slow at ending the game - no real Zenith targets that actually kill people for less than six mana (though Tireless Tracker helps), and JTMS takes a long time to finish the game. He's also way less good in a list that doesn't play as many counterspells to protect him.

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You are exactly right about Tracker - bug in my opinion is able to play 3-4 very easily, and I feel that Tracker works best in those colors. Not sure if I could explain adequately, but he feels at home and when you are running 3-4 then you will often draw multiple a game which is just too much for many opponents (also due to card consistency that blue offers). Tracker, fetchland, next turn another Tracker, fetchland makes opponents concede on the spot. The last time I was on bug, I had Titania as my top-end (and I did include some number of GSZ) and have been surprised by her ever since - to me, she is a viable finisher and also works well in bug colors. I typically don't see Jace as a finisher, rarely tick him up, he instead ties the rest of the deck together and provides it with a boost of strength. (Who cares about protecting him when you're running 3 though?) :P

I remember back to trying Stoneforge Mystic-type junk equipment nic fit and it has felt the slowest to me out of any version I've played. I ran from it to Sneak primarily for that reason, as soon as Sneak was "released" and started being worked on by this community.

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- Awful matchups against aggressive decks. You don't get the stabilizing strength of Stoneforge or Rhino, your clock is extremely slow giving them time to draw more burn for reach. Strix helps but all the card advantage (and cantrips) is just dead in these matchups and you'll regularly die before you can stabilize.

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Pulse of Murasa is also a natural fit in bug colors and imo, Stryfo's use of it on his twitch channel across his bug fit and punishing fire lists has really displayed its usefulness. I'd encourage people here to give it a try. I do agree that bug is more vulnerable to burn, price of progress, and land destruction since you do have to fetch duals more often in order to get out Strix and lower cmc combinations of ticks.

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- By cutting Zeniths for cantrips, you're way more vulnerable to Chalice and you are a lot less likely to be able to find a turn 1-2 Explorer (meaning you can't ramp into haymakers anywhere near as consistently, even with cantrips). Your haymaker density also goes down a lot and your lategame loses a lot of power, since Zenith shuffles back in increasing your odds of topdecking powerful cards over time.

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If you do decide to cut down to 0-1 Zeniths, then yes for sure. Agreed that I felt weaker to Chalice than many other nic fit lists I've tried. That's what happens when you go with full 4 Deathrite >.>

Good ideas to chew on for anyone thinking about BUG.

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Originally Posted by Navsi

The other problems with BUG fit are the same ones it has had for years:

- Extremely slow at ending the game - no real Zenith targets that actually kill people for less than six mana (though Tireless Tracker helps), and JTMS takes a long time to finish the game. He's also way less good in a list that doesn't play as many counterspells to protect him.

- Awful matchups against aggressive decks. You don't get the stabilizing strength of Stoneforge or Rhino, your clock is extremely slow giving them time to draw more burn for reach. Strix helps but all the card advantage (and cantrips) is just dead in these matchups and you'll regularly die before you can stabilize.

- By cutting Zeniths for cantrips, you're way more vulnerable to Chalice and you are a lot less likely to be able to find a turn 1-2 Explorer (meaning you can't ramp into haymakers anywhere near as consistently, even with cantrips). Your haymaker density also goes down a lot and your lategame loses a lot of power, since Zenith shuffles back in increasing your odds of topdecking powerful cards over time.

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- I guess you only skimed through the first list where multiple sacred cows of nic fit were slaughtered to accommodate FOW to combat the endless legion of storm combo on MTGO.
- SFM and Rhino? Did not touch them in about 1.5 years. Felt ok thus far. You are slamming the colour combi just for 1 matchup, Burn. square_two has a point on SFM, SFM is stupidly glacial and Searing Blood / Searing Blaze / Shattering Spree says hi from Burn. Then again it is 1 matchup, throwing away Burn to make it from slam dunk win to quite an underdog to have force vs storm infestation MTGO is something I will take.
- I guess I could just force the chalice on 1? 2nd BUG list still has the GSZ package with more targets.

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Originally Posted by square_two

You are exactly right about Tracker - bug in my opinion is able to play 3-4 very easily, and I feel that Tracker works best in those colors. Not sure if I could explain adequately, but he feels at home and when you are running 3-4 then you will often draw multiple a game which is just too much for many opponents (also due to card consistency that blue offers). Tracker, fetchland, next turn another Tracker, fetchland makes opponents concede on the spot. The last time I was on bug, I had Titania as my top-end (and I did include some number of GSZ) and have been surprised by her ever since - to me, she is a viable finisher and also works well in bug colors. I typically don't see Jace as a finisher, rarely tick him up, he instead ties the rest of the deck together and provides it with a boost of strength. (Who cares about protecting him when you're running 3 though?) :P

I remember back to trying Stoneforge Mystic-type junk equipment nic fit and it has felt the slowest to me out of any version I've played. I ran from it to Sneak primarily for that reason, as soon as Sneak was "released" and started being worked on by this community.

Pulse of Murasa is also a natural fit in bug colors and imo, Stryfo's use of it on his twitch channel across his bug fit and punishing fire lists has really displayed its usefulness. I'd encourage people here to give it a try. I do agree that bug is more vulnerable to burn, price of progress, and land destruction since you do have to fetch duals more often in order to get out Strix and lower cmc combinations of ticks.
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@Navsi @ square_two
- I believe it is my mistake to omit the powerhouse that is Tireless Tracker in BUG Fit. Will see to incorporating them.

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Originally Posted by rubblekill

This sums it up perfectly, and it's the reason I abandoned BUG colors. Without real counterspells/cantrips this isn't a real blue deck, but a (although very, very grindy) midrange deck that struggles against a lot of decks, and has not a real free win like rhino used to have with delver for example. The only thing blue gives us is a real weakness to the ubiquitous red blasts effects and a shaky manabase that make the deck more vulnerable against decks like 8 moon which would be nearly a free win otherwise for nic fit.
The only blue GSZ'able dude blue offers is Leovold, but he was not worth it in my opinion: without counterspells as protection he acts like a bad tireless tracker in my experience.
The more I play the more I think that in the post-top worls the best nic fit is the BG one.

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- 12 cantrip 3 fow feels like there are real counterspells and real cantrips :eek:
- 11 cantrip no fow version has no real counterspells I admit
- Vs delver even with Rhino is not freewin, just adds the cake to the walk. Nic Fit generally walks all over delvers due to their lack of basics which makes Explorer stupid good against them unless you sequence so poorly or get forced to walk into a stifle on explorer.


Alright guys I am not trying to flame or anything here but make a discussion for those who want to take BUG fit to somewhere in this post miracles top world. I dabbled in BUG for the following reasons
1 - We lost Top and there ain't any replacements. Miracles replaced it with adding more cantrips (Portent and Predict), I thought we could do the same plus I really like Baleful Strix vs all sorts of prison decks (Eldrazi, 8 moon and Loam)
2 - Blue means we can incorporate FOW via some deck restructuring. FOW with Therapy is good vs a multitude of decks. The resurgence of Storm due to Counterbalance leaving the format pushed me harder to this direction
3 - Miracles leaving its almost Tier 0 status meant that we get all kinds of weird control coming to play. I frequently play a topdeck war against them (as Sneaky Fit) and am always that 1 draw step away from winning the game. Cantrips definitely helped.
4 - Vs fair blue decks. I have not ceded a single game against fair blue decks with the 2nd BUG Fit I posted. Neither did my buddy. Like I said, we are the better JTMS deck and JTMS breaks open fair blue mirrors. Plus we do not play fair because of our little Explorer Therapy asymmetrical engine. Opponent has Red? Just brainstorm till he draws that REB/Pyroblast. I remember reading an article (claw blade era) saying that if your JTMS brainstorms for 3-4 turns, it is nigh impossible to lose the game. This shift in strategy means we have to swap our therapy calls to resolve JTMS and not let them resolve theirs.

Finally I would like to say, give BUG a try. There might be an inherent bias as many of us (myself included) came to try Nic Fit because we can escape the grasp of expensive blue duals. If your personal finances cannot afford or you do not want to touch the evil colour of blue, then it is ok. I will still be here lurking and giving my opinions to hopefully improve your chosen variant of Nic Fit.

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Originally Posted by fireiced

- I guess you only skimed through the first list where multiple sacred cows of nic fit were slaughtered to accommodate FOW to combat the endless legion of storm combo on MTGO.
- SFM and Rhino? Did not touch them in about 1.5 years. Felt ok thus far. You are slamming the colour combi just for 1 matchup, Burn. square_two has a point on SFM, SFM is stupidly glacial and Searing Blood / Searing Blaze / Shattering Spree says hi from Burn. Then again it is 1 matchup, throwing away Burn to make it from slam dunk win to quite an underdog to have force vs storm infestation MTGO is something I will take.
- I guess I could just force the chalice on 1? 2nd BUG list still has the GSZ package with more targets.
- I believe it is my mistake to omit the powerhouse that is Tireless Tracker in BUG Fit. Will see to incorporating them.
- 12 cantrip 3 fow feels like there are real counterspells and real cantrips :eek:
- 11 cantrip no fow version has no real counterspells I admit
- Vs delver even with Rhino is not freewin, just adds the cake to the walk. Nic Fit generally walks all over delvers due to their lack of basics which makes Explorer stupid good against them unless you sequence so poorly or get forced to walk into a stifle on explorer.


Alright guys I am not trying to flame or anything here but make a discussion for those who want to take BUG fit to somewhere in this post miracles top world. I dabbled in BUG for the following reasons
1 - We lost Top and there ain't any replacements. Miracles replaced it with adding more cantrips (Portent and Predict), I thought we could do the same plus I really like Baleful Strix vs all sorts of prison decks (Eldrazi, 8 moon and Loam)
2 - Blue means we can incorporate FOW via some deck restructuring. FOW with Therapy is good vs a multitude of decks. The resurgence of Storm due to Counterbalance leaving the format pushed me harder to this direction
3 - Miracles leaving its almost Tier 0 status meant that we get all kinds of weird control coming to play. I frequently play a topdeck war against them (as Sneaky Fit) and am always that 1 draw step away from winning the game. Cantrips definitely helped.
4 - Vs fair blue decks. I have not ceded a single game against fair blue decks with the 2nd BUG Fit I posted. Neither did my buddy. Like I said, we are the better JTMS deck and JTMS breaks open fair blue mirrors. Plus we do not play fair because of our little Explorer Therapy asymmetrical engine. Opponent has Red? Just brainstorm till he draws that REB/Pyroblast. I remember reading an article (claw blade era) saying that if your JTMS brainstorms for 3-4 turns, it is nigh impossible to lose the game. This shift in strategy means we have to swap our therapy calls to resolve JTMS and not let them resolve theirs.

Finally I would like to say, give BUG a try. There might be an inherent bias as many of us (myself included) came to try Nic Fit because we can escape the grasp of expensive blue duals. If your personal finances cannot afford or you do not want to touch the evil colour of blue, then it is ok. I will still be here lurking and giving my opinions to hopefully improve your chosen variant of Nic Fit.

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I've played BUG fit before. I think it has the potential to be good. I just dont' think that Cantrip/FOW heavy is the way to do it. Don't assume that just because I don't think the way you're building is particularly good, that I'm not interested because of budget reasons. It's not very friendly of you to go from 'oh you don't like my BUG list' to 'you must be jealous of my bags of money'.

- If you want a good storm matchup, I'd much rather have proactive hate (hatebears, discard) than Force. Storm plays discard spells, and regularly a FOW just gets Duressed on turn two before they go off on that / the next turn. Against fair decks, discard still trades 1 for 1 and opens the way for our haymakers through counterspells, where Force 2-for-1s us, or worse when we're pitching our primary card advantage engines to it (strix, jace, cantrips). I get that you've thrown out a load of the stuff that makes Nic Fit good to accomodate FOW, and I don't think you have improved the deck for it in the slightest.
- Alright, sure, swap SFM/Rhino in my comment for Sigarda then. BUG is bad at ending the game, which means we give the opponent more time to deal with our stuff. This is a serious issue you need to look into resolving with a fast clock somewhere in the deck, preferably that can be tutored. If nothing else, it means that if you lose game 1 you probably lose the match.
- Even the second BUG list is still significantly heavier on the one mana spells than a non-blue list. You'll be stuck with 1cmc stuff in hand against chalice a lot. Even if you Force it you're still down on cards and you're relying on having your 3-of in your opening hand to not have a ton of issues over the game.

1. Have you played with Sylvan Library much? Card does a ton of work.
2. see above re: fow vs discard
3. If you want to win topdeck wars, you should probably be playing Zenith. Also it's not like Cantrips are free slots - you've cut interaction / threats for cantrips, so I don't really see how the replacement improves your topdecks much at all.
4. I don't think we are the better JTMS decks, because we have a hard time protecting him on the stack. If we are in a position where we are resolving 4+ mana spells, we are winning against almost every fair deck in the format. Making the finisher JTMS gives us more card advantage and a very slow but inevitable finisher, at the expense of not being zenithable, not being playable at all when we are behind in board position, and dying to REB. He's still a very solid card but I think you are overestimating his capabilities. He does play well with Pernicious Deed. I play him in BUG but he is a backup / secondary gameplan rather than the primary way of winning games.

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Originally Posted by Navsi

4. I don't think we are the better JTMS decks, because we have a hard time protecting him on the stack. If we are in a position where we are resolving 4+ mana spells, we are winning against almost every fair deck in the format. Making the finisher JTMS gives us more card advantage and a very slow but inevitable finisher, at the expense of not being zenithable, not being playable at all when we are behind in board position, and dying to REB. He's still a very solid card but I think you are overestimating his capabilities. He does play well with Pernicious Deed. I play him in BUG but he is a backup / secondary gameplan rather than the primary way of winning games.

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This right here is the main trap of BUG. I was excited to try to play Jace in Nic Fit, but he is not worth it at all: not only we can't protect him, but in sideboard games everyone is going to have REB against us: not a nice place to be after playing a 4 mana sorcery.
Blue does not have a precise, gamewinning and streamlined plan beside outgrinding to dust the opponent; the deck cannot win the game reasonably fast and doesn't have insta win buttons, unlike other versions.
If you want to play Jace and Deed, that's awesome: but the deck that's able to do it proficiently is a blue deck and it's BUG control, or BUG landstill. Not Nic Fit.
Having underground sea in the deck does not make your deck a "blue deck".

@I'm not talking to you Navsi, but to the guy you quoted in your message.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Navsi

I've played BUG fit before. I think it has the potential to be good. I just dont' think that Cantrip/FOW heavy is the way to do it. Don't assume that just because I don't think the way you're building is particularly good, that I'm not interested because of budget reasons. It's not very friendly of you to go from 'oh you don't like my BUG list' to 'you must be jealous of my bags of money'.

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Was coming in with the "If we want to improve, we should ignore the budget issues". I do not own my Tropicals, lucky enough to be able to loan if from my LGS while Undergrounds were won eons ago with Nic Fit (have to thank Arianhod for helping me learn this deck). My sincere apologies for coming off as a scrummy scumbag.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Navsi

1. Have you played with Sylvan Library much? Card does a ton of work.
2. see above re: fow vs discard
3. If you want to win topdeck wars, you should probably be playing Zenith. Also it's not like Cantrips are free slots - you've cut interaction / threats for cantrips, so I don't really see how the replacement improves your topdecks much at all.
4. I don't think we are the better JTMS decks, because we have a hard time protecting him on the stack. If we are in a position where we are resolving 4+ mana spells, we are winning against almost every fair deck in the format. Making the finisher JTMS gives us more card advantage and a very slow but inevitable finisher, at the expense of not being zenithable, not being playable at all when we are behind in board position, and dying to REB. He's still a very solid card but I think you are overestimating his capabilities. He does play well with Pernicious Deed. I play him in BUG but he is a backup / secondary gameplan rather than the primary way of winning games.

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1 - Yes I did but the life sorta backfired upon me. I think it is my own problem and inexperience with using library. Would be great if you can teach me how you use it vs the top 4 decks I usually meet (Grixis Delver, Sneak n Show, 4c Control, Dnt)
2 - vs Storm. The threat of fow itself slows them down, no doubt they will just jam it sometimes but the threat will make them think twice about just going for it. I still play 4 Cabal Therapies
3 - There are still Zeniths in the 2nd list
4 - I play JTMS as Plan A vs the fair blue decks. The G creature core is still there with GSZ. I have just added Tireless Trackers back from your recommendation and I felt quite silly for cutting it =x As for red blasts/pyroblast I do not really have any problems with them, either strip it out using therapy or strand it while I play the creature plan. Leovold always eats the REB thou so JTMS is usually clear for resolution.

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Originally Posted by Navsi

- Even the second BUG list is still significantly heavier on the one mana spells than a non-blue list. You'll be stuck with 1cmc stuff in hand against chalice a lot. Even if you Force it you're still down on cards and you're relying on having your 3-of in your opening hand to not have a ton of issues over the game.

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I think it is just me when I get a t1 chalice from the opposing side, I will just natural an Abrupt Decay or just play on with the opponent struggling with either mana or threats. Eldrazi on the other hand, I always have that t2 Baleful Strix to make him sad till I get either deed or decay to clear the way for the spells in my hand. Below is the updated decklist :)

16 Creature
1 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Baleful Strix
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Thragtusk
1 Grave Titan

4 Planeswalker
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Nissa, Vital Force

17 Spell
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Fatal Push
2 Gitaxian Probe
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Abrupt Decay

2 Enchantment
2 Pernicious Deed

21 Land
2 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Sideboard
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Negate
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Null Rod
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Dread of Night
1 Engineered Plague

Edit for spelling and add updated deck list

Hello guys, is anyone working on rector fit ?
Would like to give it a shot!

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Originally Posted by benjiman13

Hello guys, is anyone working on rector fit ?
Would like to give it a shot!

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I do. Having quite some fun, but losing a lot.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by benjiman13

Hello guys, is anyone working on rector fit ?
Would like to give it a shot!

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I've been playing it some with success. Here's what my list is currently looking like.


Main Deck:
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Witness
4 Academy Rector
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Lingering Souls

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Collective Brutality
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Swords to Plowshares

3 Pernicious Deed
2 Evolutionary Leap
2 Sylvan Library
1 Dovescape
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Cruel Reality
1 Overwhelming Splendor
1 Starfield of Nyx

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Cavern of Souls

Sideboard:
3 Leyline of the Void
3 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Thoughtseize
1 Chromanticore
1 Ground Seal
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Lost Legacy

Since I can not get Sneak Fit to work, i was tinkering with straigth GB. Surprisingly good i believe. Very fast and able to operate on very few mana if needed

21 Land( 1Arbor, 2 Tower, 1 Stronghold)

4 Deathrite
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren

3 Abrupt Decay
2 Collective Brutality
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Deed
1 Toxic Deluge

4 Green Sun`s Zenith

2 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Liliana, the last hope


S:

3 Surgicals
2 Thoughtseize
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Lost Legacy
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Obstinate Baloth



Anyone else had the same ideas?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dalton!

Since I can not get Sneak Fit to work, i was tinkering with straigth GB. Surprisingly good i believe. Very fast and able to operate on very few mana if needed

21 Land( 1Arbor, 2 Tower, 1 Stronghold)

4 Deathrite
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren

3 Abrupt Decay
2 Collective Brutality
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Deed
1 Toxic Deluge

4 Green Sun`s Zenith

2 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Liliana, the last hope


S:

3 Surgicals
2 Thoughtseize
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Lost Legacy
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Obstinate Baloth



Anyone else had the same ideas?

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Since a few days I am experimanting with Bone Picker. I also endet in a streigt GB Nic Fit list with Bone Picker.
Very often you get him for B through Cabal therapy and Veteran Explorer. 3/2 Flying deathtouch is a house!

Liliana, Heretical Healer is also an idea in this deck!

Bone Picker would be cheap even if you only crack a cloue token....seems interessting. I like that addition

Flip Lilli is the next thing i will be testing. Would you mind posting a list?