[OLD] UGw Threshold

I'll admit that I have little experience with Thresh variants, but Mantis has a point. With Brainstorm and Ponder restricted, Vintage players have even less answers than Legacy players for a drawn "dead" Darksteel Colossus (Progenitus). Yet Tinker -> DSC remains a huge game-swinging play in all the top decks packing it. Saying that Daze (or any counterspell) effectively nullifies/2-for-1s this strategy is foolish.

But it's not entirely a fair comparison. Tinker gets more than just DSC/Sundering Titan/Inkwell Leviathan/Ebony Rhino/Random large robot; Tinker gets the game-ending Voltaic Key/Time Vault, or the Grindstone you need, or the Crucible to lock your opponent out, all at the sacrifice of a mox or a Mana Crypt that's killing you. Natural Order doesn't have this quality about it. I'm not sure you will want to ever sac a Goyf to get...another Goyf, or a Goose or Bear. Your main target is the big 10/10 Globetrotter and you sac one of your main dudes for it. Dryad Arbor simplifies this a bit, but I'm not sure I agree with that play.

My point is that I think a lot of Legacy players overlook the impact a risky Natural Order can have because they aren't used to that kind of play in the format. It's not as nice as Tinker -> DSC of course, but if you have a counter to back it up (as players who play Tinker should), the "oops I win" factor is huge. I'll admit that I really don't know if Natural Order -> Progenitus is a good fit in this deck or other Thresh variants or any other Legacy deck, but it's not fair to say "Daze lol gg" and just dismiss it.

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Originally Posted by Adan

Yo, I have played Progenitus Thresh at Mannheim, but I can say that Natural Order simply can't be compared to Tinker in several points:

1. It's SLOW AND CLUNKY! (this is relativized by the raw power it provides, ok)
2. You need green creatures which restricts the amount of decks in whcih you can play it.
3. You already need a boardposition/situation which is already slightly in your favor. Nat.Order for Progenitus does not save your ass when you will get beaten up by... let's say 7 Goblins or 12 Elves...

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1. There's no denying that. It is slow and clunky. But I don't think anyone expects or even wants to try to get NO -> Prog online as soon as possible.
2. Agreed, which is why it shouldn't be crammed into every deck with Forests. This is very different than Tinker, where Tinker+DSC goes in any deck playing Mana Drain, and decks that don't play Drain (lol).
3. Agreed, but that's true for almost any card other than a sweeper. If your opponent is in that position - in any format - they deserve to win.

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Originally Posted by Adan

And now let's think again why Tinker is so powerful in Vintage:

1) Everyone - w/o any exception but Ichorid - plays SoLoMoxenCryptVault and maybe Chalice of the Void or Null Rod.
They can always win in a retarded manner via Tinker. True.

2) BUT in Vintage, you don't find much Aggro or removal in general. Just a few 1-2 bounce spells in a fist full of decks.

3) Tinker can be resolved 1st Turn and the acceleration serve as sac outlet here. And now compare the Moxen to Llanowar/Fyndhorn Elves, Noble Hierarch or Werebear. They are all far worse than Moxen.

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1. Yep, Tinker is busted, and Vintage is full of cheap artifact acceleration. But I don't think that's what makes Tinker so good...(more later)
2. The bounce spells and removal are in the decks largely because of Tinker and are usually very tutorable. Every deck needs an answer to the Big Guy. Bounce and removal, short of Wrath effects, doesn't do anything to Progenitus.
3. First turn Tinker can be a strong play, but I don't like it and I don't think it's as good as it looks. It either wins the game or it loses (granted it just wrecks some decks). A bounce spell screws you, as does a FoW. Tinker's real strength, I think, is (1) when it's used as a plan B and (2) because of the large number of stupidly powerful artifacts available as a target in Vintage (which is where Natural Order fails to compare). "Tezzeret resolve? No? Damn. What about Demonic Tutor? Damn. Now that you're out of counters...what about Tinker?" I know, unlikely..right? My point is that Natural Order doesn't have to be an explosive turn 1-4 play to win.

I really don't know if NO -> Prog is good yet, but I do think it's a comparable play to Tinker -> DSC, but not necessarily that Natural Order is comparable to Tinker. So I see NO as a very niche card which nobody has probably found its best use yet.

Not to change the topic off my pet card, but does anyone have experience playing against Ichorid?

Virtually no one plays the deck in my area, and I've played against it maybe a total of three times ever. Anyone have any recomendations for the matchup pre or post board? However, if the MU is a lost cause without devoting a bunch of SB cards to it, I just won't worry about it.

You can win against Ichorid with a good mix of early Tarmogoyfs, Swords, a counter and mediocre to bad Dredges.

Good thing is that Jotun Grunt and Gaddock Teeg which are usually in the SB for other reasons are quite nice against them. Still you can get simply steamrolled before you can do anything. This weekend I won the first game against Ichorid by simply dropping 4 beaters (2 Goyf, 2 RWM) in five rounds and lost both games with SB although I had 3 Grunt, 3 Teeg, 2 Explosives, 3 Needle after boarding.

With so many dredge / flashback options, what are the strongest needle choices typically? Their biggest dredgers?

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Originally Posted by Smog

With so many dredge / flashback options, what are the strongest needle choices typically? Their biggest dredgers?

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Flashback is an alternative casting cost, Dredge is a replacement effect - you can't Needle either one.
Needle is usually played on Cephalid Coliseum so that their Slow Dredge Plan (also called DDD for Draw, Discard, Dredge) looses a lot of bustedness. If they don't go into DDD-mode, they risk walking their stuff into Force of Will and Daze which will then buy you aeons if they don't have the absolutely busted hand with numerous enablers. Most players won't/shouldn't be risking this which makes Needle somewhat effective although still not great.

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Originally Posted by Smog

Does anyone have experience playing against Ichorid?

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I answered a similar question, among others, recently in a PM so that I'm just going to copy/paste what I wrote over there - in fact, all of the questions the user (cane) came up with were something I thought more people would be asking themselves so that I'll just post the entire PM:

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Originally Posted by cane

What I was wondering about, your sideboard seems to lack any graveyard hate. I can understand you took the Ichorid gambit and just thought, I'll simply lose to that, and count on everyone else to pack relics and the likes so that Ichorid won't make it to the top tables. But what about loam, do you solely rely on counterbalance?
I agree, every tournament match I won against loam was due to CB, but I can't help to think there should be more outs.

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You're pretty much dead right on the Ichorid issue: there's no way you're winning this matchup without dedicating 8+ slots to it. As graveyard hate isn't that important in Legacy right now (against NQG you'd rather have answers to Counterbalance, same against ITF etc.), those anti-Ichorid slots will be occupied with rather narrow cards which means weakening your other matchups... and even if you're dedicating a huge amount of slots to the Ichorid matchup, you're not guaranteed to win it anyway: you're pretty much sure to loose the first game and game 3 will be another uphill battle as you're going to face tailor-made hate-hate.
On top of this, Ichorid isn't really worth the attention too: the deck only sees very limited play and is only rarely found at the top tables due to its inherent inconsistency and due to many people still packing hate for it.
If you face Ichorid later in a tournament, I can only suggest to try and talk the guy into a draw. If that doesn't work, feel free to concede and get some pizza/air/drink and/or take a smoking break if that is more to your liking - the frustration you spare yourself and the increased ability to focus in the last few rounds due to the break will more than make up for that one loss. If you aren't one of those guys whose ability to focus suffers after 5h+ in a closed room filled with a bunch of geeks, deprived of food and drink, feel free to take your chances, you'd be boarding something along the lines of
-1 Counterspell
-1 Nantuko Monastery
-2 Oblivion Ring
-1 Sensei's Divining Top
-1 Werebear
If you think that they left Dread Return in (i.e. you're sitting across a bad player), in come
+3 Gaddock Teeg
If your opponent looked more competent, in come
+3 Pithing Needle (Cephalid Coliseum)
Against any opponent, this is fix:
+3 Engineered Explosives
Then, pray. Pray that Ichorid proves that it's an inconsistent pile exactly in that round.
If you have some Jotun Grunts in your sideboard, they'll obviously come in too - they are too slow to be more than a nuisance for the Ichorid player most of the time though.

As for the Aggro Loam matchup, it is a total joke. I currently am 9-0 (18:3, if I recall correctly) in tournament games against Aggro Loam, most of the wins not being anywhere close and the losses mostly being related to me being a horrible player.
Thing is that due to its inherently clunky nature Aggro Loam just can't do much against a solid manabase + solid clock backed up by Counterbalance and mild disruption: most of the builds don't star any removal meaning that you can always play the aggro role while they struggle to do anything of relevance (Loam isn't really that great against a clock and/or a solid manabase)... and that relevant stuff they'll eventually find, you can just counter or remove otherwise. If Counterbalance joins the party at any point of the game, it just gets even the more ridiculous (as in they can't do anything). With previous incarnations of the build, I already had the feeling that without a Chalice of the Void @1 against a one-drop heavy hand or a very nastily timed Engineered Explosives against me getting overly greedy the deck couldn't really win. The build has evolved since then, eliminating Chalice as threat to a large extent, tilting the matchup even further to your favour.
It may just be my experience playing the matchup (Hassloch was totally flooded with Aggro Loam for some time), but I always found that I did not need any special tools to beat it which is why I won't dedicate any slots in my sideboard to it any more. It just happens that some of the stuff in my current sideboard is pretty decent in the matchup regardless of the fact that it wasn't added to fight Aggro Loam, so that it comes in: Hydroblast and Engineered Explosives weren't added to the Sideboard to fight Aggro Loam but still come in handy.
If you do continue having problems with the matchup, I'd suggest reverting back to one of my earlier builds (link), featuring some 2-3 Jotun Grunts between main and side. With Jotun Grunt, there is absolutely no way you can continue to consistently loose to Aggro Loam at all - that little sucker just wins the matchup single-handedly. He achieves this effect by putting the Aggro Loam player into a dilemma situation: they can't play magic while he's on the board because he shrinks all their dudes to laughable sizes and disables their only means of creating card advantage (which is vital for them to make up for the large amount of lands and/or other useless stuff they have in their deck), however, they also can't efficiently dig for solutions while he's on the board because he disables Loam+Cycling Lands to a large extent and because, while digging for solutions, they keep feeding Grunt meaning that you're having a 4+ power clock. However, due to this same clock, they also can't really wait for him to die because that's not going to be any time soon anyway due to the nature of Aggro Loam (their 'yards are pretty full by the time you're going to find your 2-3off) and your deck.

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Originally Posted by cane

What I was wondering about, your sideboard seems to lack any swarm control: no Duelling Grounds. Could you give me your reasoning on the exclusion of that card from your list?

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I had Duelling Grounds in my list for quite some time, mainly due to me being one of the first people having 'discovered' that tech. However, some very important changes have since occurred and made Duelling Grounds out-dated.
First of all, Aggro Decks adopted a stronger lategame and landwalkers. Although many people seem not to understand this yet, the former feat means that you have to be the beatdown-player in the Aggro matchups as in the lategame, you're going to loose to your opponent having more brutally good stuff (infinite Ringleaders + Wort + Weirdings, Survival + Natural Order + Messengers, etc.). Duelling Grounds hinder this strategy by giving the Aggro opponent the opportunity to buy himself infinite time by chump-blocking with small, useless critters, while further strenghtening his board position to eventually find a solution and/or overwhelm you in another way.
Then, Mystic Enforcer got the axe - he was one of the prime reasons why you could still play Duelling Grounds, even with knowledge of the aforementioned facts. Although I really like Mystic Enforcer and think that it pretty much is the only good beater besides Tarmogoyf (and maybe Tombstalker) in the format, he's just not that great in the current builds and/or there's simply no space for him.
Hence Duelling Grounds got the axe.
As for other measures of 'swarm control', Engineered Explosives comes in extremely handy, ridding the opposing board either of all relevant stuff (Merfolk, Slivers, Goblins [always play it blindly for 1 on the play]) or of all means your opponent has to create tempo (killing a bunch of mana elves/chumpers against Elves is so extremely good, even the more if it allows your Tarmogoyf to swing for 1-2 more damage [creature+artefact] in the future). Also, Engineered Explosives isn't as narrow as Duelling Grounds, which is worth another thumbs up. Rhox War Monk also works wonders.
Thanks to those two (and Hydroblasts against some flavours of aggressive decks), the matchup really isn't that terrible any more - just keep in mind that you have to be the aggro player!

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Originally Posted by Der_imaginäre_Freund

Flashback is an alternative casting cost, Dredge is a replacement effect - you can't Needle either one.

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That was actually what I meant, I just phrased it poorly. I should have said, "With the deck being fueled by so many flashback and dredge engines, what are the strongest needle options and what are the strongest dredgers I should worry about trying to deal with in other ways."

I need to stop being lazy in phrasing. Thanks for the rest of that though, I kind of assumed at best you could only hope to draw out against them on a regular basis without devoting a ton of board spots to it. I hate that deck.

I've played my fair share of the Ichorid vs Thresh MU (on both sides) and here are some thoughts to complement what Clemens said:
-Board out your CB!
-Sword their Ichorids (this should be obv). Do so preferably during their Upkeep, to keep them from flashbacking Cabal Therapy/Dread Returns.
-Try to counter their PImps (even if you have a Sword in hand!). A resolved PImp is just way to dangerous (and chances are your Counter won't hit anything more important).
-Keep unthreshed Bears at home to prevent the Ichorid player from attacking (otherwise he will lose his Bridges).
-Play as aggressiv as humanly possible. If you have to start playing the defensiv role you probably already have lost the game.

The main problem is, that Threshold is actually playing the Aggro role in this MU and it isn't prepared for this very well. But if the game lasts long enough Ichorid will overwhelm you with zombies. So I think your best shot is to mulligan aggressively into beater and start praying.

@Clemens:

What would be your SB strategy against Merfolk and Elf survivals as both decks ruins our days if they manage to stick a Lord in play (giving landswalk). Is Needle worth it? Shutting down Vial, Mutavault and Relic against Merfolk and Survival and Imperious Perfect against Elves.

But my major question is about Counterbalance. It looks like a bit slow against elves but a bit better against Merfolk. It already offered me a win vs Merfolk, but never against elves.

What you guys think of Hail storm? I tested it and felt it was a bit clunky because of the "attacking creatures". Is 3x EE + STP + RWM enough to seal games against those? I feel it's pretty even. About what you said of beeing the aggro player, I completly agree on this, thanks to RWM.

PM

Going into GP: Chicago I was planning on playing Canadian Thresh, but once arriving I liked the look of UGwr Thresh. After some quick borrowing of some lands and buying of IA plows, here is the list I ran.

3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Fire//Ice
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trygon Predator
1 Mystic Enforcer
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Forest

SB:
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Submerge
3 Pyroclasm
3 Krosan Grip

With no byes I went 4-3-1. I am trying to remember all the matches with no notes. I got my opponents names from wizards coverage.

Round 1: Brian Chorba w/ Burn (W 2-0)

Game 1: I open my opening had to see top, counterbalance, 2 land, fetch and brainstorm. Turn 1 top, turn 2 counterbalance = gg against burn.
Game 2: He nearly catches me with price of progress x 2. I was able to counter one, but had a high enough life total to survive the other all the while beating with goyfs.

Round 2: Tyler Beckstrom w/ Goblins (W 2-0)
Game 1: I plow turn 1 lackey. Drop a turn 2 goyf and ride him to victory partly in thanks to bad ringleader flips for him.
Game 2: I get a goyf down then he drops a Blood moon on me when I have a Trygon in hand, but not the forest. I proceed to savagely rip the forest off the top to play Trygon. Trygon eats 2 blood moons and a vial this game.

Round 3: Wes Blanchard w/ Dredge (W 2-1)
Game 1: I go turn 1 mongoose, not knowing what he is playing. His turn one he proceeds to drop, coliseum, LED, pitch hand, flashback Deep Analysis, and then dredges 2 narcos and a dread return on his first draw from deep analysis and I scoop.
Game 2: He mulls to 5 I believe. I go all aggro on him, dropping 2 goyfs that get HUGE from him dredging. His dredges were crap but they pumped the goyfs enough to kill him fast.
Game 3: This game was close with me savagely digging for answers the whole game. I believe I was able to plow 1 ichorid. I was able to beat him down to 10 thanks to painlands and mongoose beats. He is able to dread return a 7/7 Troll, while I have 2 6/7 goyfs and threshed mongoose. The crucial turn consisted him bringing back 3 ichorids with 2 zombies,the 7/7 troll in play and 2 bridges in the yard. I have 1 card in hand (top). He sacs the 3 ichorid to bring one back for 6 zombies. He swings with the troll, the mongoose makes a thump-thump sound as it goes under the bus. He looses his bridges, but has the tapped 7/7 and 8 2/2s. I go into my turn, draw a fetch land. I play top, search top three and find a pyroclasm 3 cards deep. I then proceed to clasm his blockers and swing FTW. Whew. A 40 minute dredge matchup, what the hell. Oh well, onto the next round.

Round 4: Jason Newill w/ Dreadstill (L 1-2)
Game 1: Turn 2 Dreadnought w/ force of will back up.
Game 2: I get counterbalance down, he tries to grip it, I flip a grip. He scoops.
Game 3: I lead with two fetches both are stifled. I scoop.

Round 5: Matt Barnett w/ Elves (W 2-1)
I don't remember much about this match, but Jason was a cool guy who was a white sox fan with a Dodgers jersey. It turns out elves don't like countertop + plows + burn + fatties.

Round 6: Matthew Tickal w/ aggro loam(L 0-2)
Matthew is a local players that I have played against many times. Turns out thresh decks don't like recurring wastelands. :( At least I know I sent a local player to the 5-1 bracket.

Round 7: Richard Franklin w/ UWb Landstill (D 1-1-1)
Game 1: Turn 1 mongoose pretty much goes the distance.
Game 2: He make a six soldier decree, followed by an Elspeth.
Game 3: We start this match with 5 minutes left in the round. I drop a turn 1 mongoose. A goyf joins the board, then he wraths the 3rd turn of overtime. DRAW.

Round 8: Anthony Hickerty w/ Rbg Goblins (L 1-2)
It's getting late, sorry I don't remember much about this match. I don't get much countermagic, he wierdings away goyfs and chains ringleaders together like goblins can do.

I drop to go get my water buffalo drinking hat, drink some beer and end up staying up to about 5 am, hanging with randoms having a blast. Most fun I've had at a tournament in a long time. Thanks all!!

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Originally Posted by Enigma

What would be your SB strategy against Merfolk and Elf survivals as both decks ruins our days if they manage to stick a Lord in play (giving landswalk).

Is Needle worth it? Shutting down Vial, Mutavault and Relic against Merfolk and Survival and Imperious Perfect against Elves.

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I'll assume that you're playing a list along these lines.

With that list, playing against Elves, I'd bring in any number of Engineered Explosives and Pithing Needles, taking out Daze (especially useless against Elves due to their inflationary amount of mana accelerants), Counterspell, and Trygon Predators. Pithing Needle is pretty important here because Survival of the Fittest, Imperious Perfect and especially Wren's Run Packmaster can really ruin your day.
Against Merfolk, Trygon Predators can stay in while Needles stay out: Merfolk is much slower than Elves making Trygon Predator worth it. Also, they have less good targets for Needle (basically they only have Vial and Relic as relevant targets, both which are hit fairy well by Predator, who, au contrary to Needle, is solid against due to his body) and more Trygon Predator targets (Standstill).

Also, keep in mind to play as aggressively as possible. Especially Elves will overwhelm you if you give them enough time: they just play way too many bombs for you to handle. In the same time, Merfolk will just topdeck into more Lords than you can handle and win - try to not give them that time.

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Originally Posted by Enigma

But my major question is about Counterbalance. It looks like a bit slow against elves but a bit better against Merfolk. It already offered me a win vs Merfolk, but never against elves.

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Counterbalance is so-so against both. It's not terrible but not terrific either: it's not one of the first things to come out, however, if you have more stuff in your sideboard for these matchups, you can always board out 1 Counterbalance and 1 Top (assuming you play 4/4).

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Originally Posted by Enigma

What you guys think of Hail storm? I tested it and felt it was a bit clunky because of the "attacking creatures". Is 3x EE + STP + RWM enough to seal games against those? I feel it's pretty even.

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I don't like it: it's just too clunky (cc3, double green + the attackers restriction which will make it often not hit the real threats aka. Lords makes it slow and only conditionally awesome). If you want more for the swarm aggro matchups, try playing Umezawa's Jittes, Vedalken Shackles and/or Path to Exile.


Speaking of New Builds™, here is what I played on today's Hassloch event, coming in second with a score of 5-1, loosing to Ug Merfolk (0:2) and winning against RGB Aggro Loam (2:0), 4c Aggro Control (2:1), NQG/w (2:1), Rgb Goblins (2:1) and Aggro Elves (2:1).
Detailed report coming soon to a forum near to you.
Also, a very slight variation of my pre-Iserlohn build (something along the lines of -1 Werebear +1 Counterspell) took first, going 6-0, beating (and by beating I obviously mean lucksacking) Merfolk (twice) and Ichorid (once), amongst others. The other NQG/w builds in the room went 3-3 (variation of my Iserlohn list piloted by Martin MSC Schreiber, something along the lines of -2 Werebear -1 Counterspell +2 Noble Hierarch +1 Steward of Valeron) and 1-4drop (Natural Order Hatfield list, piloted by Daniel Adan Scherer).


Disclaimer: Kids, don't try this at home or at school.

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Not Quite Balanced /w (Alternative List IV)
by Clemens Wolff

/// Maindeck (60 cards)

// Lands (18)
    4 Flooded Strand
    4 Windswept Heath
    3 Tropical Island
    3 Tundra
    3 Island
    1 Forest

// Guys (13)
    4 Tarmogoyf
    3 Werebear
    1 Steward of Valeron
    1 Hoofprints of the Stag
    1 Trygon Predator
    1 Trinket Mage
    2 Rhox War Monk

// Card Advantage (12)
    4 Brainstorm
    3 Ponder
    4 Sensei's Divining Top
    1 Enlightened Tutor

// Permission (8)
    4 Counterbalance
    4 Force of Will

// Removal (7)
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    1 Oblivion Ring
    1 Vedalken Shackles
    1 Engineered Explosives

// Stuff (2)
    1 Umezawa's Jitte
    1 Krosan Grip

/// Sideboard (15 cards)
    1 Jotun Grunt
    1 Relic of Progenitus
    1 Engineered Explosives
    1 Krosan Grip
    2 Pithing Needle
    1 Back to Basics
    3 Gaddock Teeg
    2 Hydroblast
    1 Blue Elemental Blast
    1 Path to Exile
    1 Dueling Grounds

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You can stop screaming now.

First of all, have a look at this rough comparison of my past builds. See the progression in the builds? Aye, the builds are gravitating toward a more control-focused list: tempo-playing just doesn't really cut it any more when every single guy in the format (Tarmogoyf) stops your aggro gameplan (Tarmogoyf) cold and when your other beaters are either itsy-bitsy or need until turn 10 or so to stop being pocket-size. Cutting Daze and adding further good control elements was just the next consequent step. Especially since some people started being not horrible, realizing that Gro isn't fast enough to make any use of the one turn you give them by playing around Daze. To quote Stefan: "I lately only use Daze to pump Quirion Dryad".

I feel that you're still screaming (as in a "Tu quoque fili?!" scream).
The Highlander approach was something I always wanted to do. For one, Highlander is simply awesome. If that isn't enough for you, here's the reasoning for the spike: I've been a proponent of the 1+1+1+1 = 4 idea for a long time - while not reducing consistency by much, you're simply increasing power by loads which is huge - and Nassif's placing finally gave me the legitimacy I needed to back it up and actually put it to action.

If you're still a little dazzled, here's some card by card reasoning:

• Steward of Valeron.
  
  • Click on that link, I'll wait.
  • This is something Martin MSC Schreiber put me up to, the Friday before the event, so it is largely untested. It did seem nice enough to me to try though: it's basically a Werebear that's incredibly better early (you don't get Threshold until around turn 10 like ever), at least if it weren't for the colour requirements (not being able to drop that accelerant on your second turn because your manabase sucks will greatly set you back, trust me on this one).
  • Also, Steward of Valeron + Umezawa's Jitte = Steaksauce. Reminds me of the only way Fish could win back in the day. Call me nostalgic (but don't call me red).
  • In the end, he turned out to be solid - the interaction with Jitte actually came up in a matchup where it was relevant (Goblins) and obviously won the game on the spot, and he was better than Werebear when I drew him without the random-win that is Jitte. That was mainly due to the fact that my manabase wasn't under any real assault this month though - I wouldn't play more than one (needed for the random win situations, for the big "wtf" on your opponent's face, and to draw him when Werebear would have been bad - learn to be French, that is).
• Hoofprints of the Stag
  
  • I wanted to give this another shot since I already have Enlightened Tutor in the list and because I irrationally like the card.
  • It turned out to be as 'bad' as I expected it to be though: it wasn't relevant in any matchup but in the drawn out ones (Thanks Captain Obvious) (against 4c Aggro Control). It was a nice puffer against Aggro Loam, too, but that's really it.
  • In conclusion, I'll need to reconsider it and test my aggro matchups further to see if I can afford the one truly dead slot against them.
• 1 Trygon Predator / 1 Krosan Grip
  
  • First of all, I expected loads of Counterbalance. I was wrong on that call however (note to self: always never metagame for Legacy events). We're Legacy - where your 50% of metagame Leviathan will just turn into a mere 10% small fish in the sea 30 days later.
  • I'm still not going back though. See the Highlander theory above for an explanation.
  • Also, it frees up Sideboard slots.
• 2 Rhox War Monk / 1 Trinket Mage
  
  • Sice I already had Engineered Explosives in there, I figured that I might just as well play one Trinket Mage in one of the Rhox War Monk slots: with an Engineered Explosives to fetch, both do a solid job against aggro decks (Mage being worse though), however, Trinket Mage is much better in the mirror or against control due to fetching Explosives or SdT.
  • He also allows you to get some of your Enlightened Tutor targets with greater consistency.
  • However, due to Aggro being a worse matchup than other Aggro Control or Control decks, I wouldn't cut more Rhox War Monks for him: I'd still rather make bad matchups better than further improve on good matchups.
• 3 Ponder / 4 Sensei's Divining Top
  
  • Thank you, Pros.
  • You too, Chicago.
  • Also, totally the right call: SdT is just such a broken card.
  • The slight loss in tempo against aggressive decks is made up for by other changes to improve on those matchups.
• Enlightened Tutor
  
  • I've written something earlier on this, something about how he's more or less only worth it if you play enough narrowish bombs to fetch out - well, with this build, you certainly have your fair share of 'omg I just win in this matchup (but am not totally horrible in most others, by the way)' stuff to get so that he came back in.
  • Also,gives your more excuses for the Highlanderness of your Deck.
• Umezawa's Jitte
  
  • Steaksauce against aggressive decks, especially against Tribal Decks (which are bad matchups, need I remind you).
  • Also somewhat solid to turn your non-Goyf dudes into anything more than utility beaters (and to kill Goyfs, along the way).
  • If it weren't for the already lowish creature count, I'd probably throw a second in.
• Vedalken Shackles
  
  • (see Umezawa's Jitte)
  • It needed a manabase overhaul to work though - especially having to get rid of the basic Plains was not cool. You can somewhat get away with it though because you only play a limited amount of white spells and because you don't need constant access to those (just fetch a Tundra once, play that removal and then move along). I definitely want that Plains back in though, I just don't know how right now.
  • I'll probably add land n°19 to support it better: 5 mana is loads, and you really want to hit those first four Islands in order to do something against your Friendly Neighbourhood Lhurgoyf
• Path to Exile
  
  • Outstanding, I'll probably add the second to the board soon: having access to more, cheap!, removal postboard is good in bad matchups like Tribal (I do get repetitive, don't I?).
  • It's also a good board slot because of its amazing flexibility.
• Dueling Grounds
  
  • Last Minuted addition, not worth it (as I already stated, you need to be aggressive against those damn aggro decks - this prevents you from being aggressive. Jitte made me reconsider it, Worship is probably better though - I just couldn't get hold of one).
  • Move along, there's nothing to see here.

I think that's all that needed clearing up. If there's anything else you're still wtf-ing at, feel free to post/ask.
Also, you guys hold your breath till that report hits the air - Team SPOD weren't just your ordinary awesome guys this time. Also, Nephilims.

Thanks for anwsers, Clemens.

I'm back from a 31 players tournament in Montreal and finished 7th or 8th [4-1 + TOP8 (0-1)], loosing to Ichorid in TOP8 because my lack of graveyard hate in the sideboard.

Here's the list I ran:

Quote:

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// Lands
4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
2 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Forest
2 Island
1 Plains

// Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trygon Predator
4 Werebear
3 Rhox War Monk
1 Mystic Enforcer

// Spells
3 Daze
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
1 Krosan Grip
1 Path to Exile

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Path to Exile
SB: 3 Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Umezawa's Jitte

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As I was mentionning to DIF in private, I've been facing a lot of Stifles, Trygons, Krosan grips and Vindicate, and it's why I cut the Oblivion Rings to bring 1 Krosan Grip MD and a Path to exile. It's the only change in the MD from his last Standard list. I was afraid of swarm aggro, and I modified the SB for that: -4x BEB -1x Grip (+1x MD), +3x Path to exile, +2x Jitte.

I didn't face any aggro today, so the Jitte has been useless. I wish I would have some graveyard hate in that, so I don't know what I'll do. The RWM were also pretty mehh all day long, but I attribuate this to the low count of aggro decks.

P-M

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Der_imaginäre_Freund

Martin MSC Schreiber, something along the lines of -2 Werebear -1 Counterspell +2 Noble Hierarch +1 Steward of Valeron)

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Yeah, -1 Tropical +1 Valeron

I played 3-3 loosing against Clemens and the Winner Harry David cause being retarded, not having Grips in my Sideboard. Third loss was about being unlucky against RGW-Zoo.

Steward of Valeron was nice all day. Early to Midgame he is just 3 times better than Werebear. And he doesn't scoopt to random Gravehate. Never had Problems casting him, but it may be a problem at some point. He definitly stays in as 2-Of. If he gets the remaining 2 Werebear spots is still in testing.

Noble Hierarch was really good. Stabilizing your Mana while making your Guys more relevant is just great. 5/6 attacking RWM is no fun for your opponent. Never more as a 2-Of, cause he himself isn't relevant. But he is really worth that 2 Slots.


Any sugestions about replacing Daze?

@DiF: Interesting List. And as always it was entertaining.
btw : Steward of Valeron , i had to click the link :smile:

About the 4 Top, i also think its a good addition to the deck.
Have you thought about alternatives for the Hoofprints ?
About the 1ofs i like them !!! Aren`t the japanese also big fans of the 1 ofs strategy ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Der_imaginäre_Freund

Good work

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Good work.

.
.

To avoid one-liner:
Very interesting list, perfectly written explanation. Also - this is what I call inovation!

btw: And yes, I clicked the Stewart, too. At first I even expected that it will be some kind of rickroll... :smile:

PS: What do you think of Eyes of the Wisent? Is it worthy a try for blue heavy matchups? (Like Merfolks, Landstill, mirror.. ahem.. with all those changes maybe "mirror")

I want some opinions about my list:
Lands 19
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
5 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

Creatures - 12
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Sower of Temptation
2 trygon Predator
3 Trinket mage

Spells - 29
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
4 Sword to Plowshares
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 ponder
3 Spell Snare
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Pithing Needle
1 Enginneered Explosives

I would like to add 3 dazes in this deck, someone could help me?
or maybe bob!

isn't o-ring good anymore?

For starters, that singleton Forest seems pretty worthless since you have no way to obtain it when you need it other than just drawing into it. Why not just play a playset of each fetch land? Not seeing any board, not sure what good Underground Sea is serving other than the base of your deck looks like NLU (Brassman version) + StP and he had them for Duress. Since you have opted to remove red and shackles, how do you deal with aggro? Is Stp enough until you get Sower? I know you have a single EE, but not all aggro decks can be wiped with a single EE like Slivers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Charlatan

I want some opinions about my list:
Lands 19
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
5 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

Creatures - 12
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Sower of Temptation
2 trygon Predator
3 Trinket mage

Spells - 29
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
4 Sword to Plowshares
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 ponder
3 Spell Snare
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Pithing Needle
1 Enginneered Explosives

I would like to add 3 dazes in this deck, someone could help me?
or maybe bob!

isn't o-ring good anymore?

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kabal

For starters, that singleton Forest seems pretty worthless since you have no way to obtain it when you need it other than just drawing into it. Why not just play a playset of each fetch land? Not seeing any board, not sure what good Underground Sea is serving other than the base of your deck looks like NLU (Brassman version) + StP and he had them for Duress. Since you have opted to remove red and shackles, how do you deal with aggro? Is Stp enough until you get Sower? I know you have a single EE, but not all aggro decks can be wiped with a single EE like Slivers.

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Sorry, i didn't make all the changes, yes. I'm based on Brassman's NLU version.

The main thing is about nimble, i think that he doesn't fit in white list anymore.

I'm thinking about sower, trinket and even mystic to fill this blank. Look that lists:
LANDs 18
4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
5 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

Creatures - 10
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Sower of Temptation
2 trygon Predator
3 Trinket mage

Spells - 32
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Sword to Plowshares
2 ponder
3 daze
3 Spell Snare
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Pithing Needle
1 Enginneered Explosives

OR
LANDs 19
4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
6 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

Creatures - 9
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Sower of Temptation
2 trygon Predator


Spells - 32
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Sword to Plowshares
3 daze
2 ponder
2 Spell Snare/Counterspel/rushing river
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Enginneered Explosives

And i didn't think about SB yet

I am assuming that the 3 missing cards in your first list are daze :wink:

For Counterbalance mirrors, has anybody thought about boarding Boseiju in? I can imagine that card being insane with NO as well. Being able to immediately tap out for it sounds awesome. I played Boseiju in Landstill, and that card was awesome. I'm sure it would apply here as well.

Quote:

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Boseiju, Who Shelters All
Legendary Land
Boseiju, Who Shelters All comes into play tapped.
{T}, Pay 2 life: Add {1} to your mana pool.If that mana is spent on an instant or sorcery spell, that spell can't be countered by spells or abilities.

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What instants or sorceries do you really want to make uncounterable that have colorless mana in their cost? If you are worried about Counterbalance mirrors, just play more Grips, Predators, or Explosives.