[DTB] Vial Goblins

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01-13-2009, 01:07 PM
Shriekmaw

Re: [DTW] Vial Goblins

I've played around with a lot of different versions of goblins recently, hoping to tweak the deck before the trials start for the GP. I have discussed the 3 different versions belowed which I playtested and my feelings about each one.

The RBG list is probably my current favorite b/c of all the answers it has access to by playing 2 splashes for main deck and sideboard. The benefits of the deck is having access to tin street and krosan grip in the board. I always felt that you have to find a way with dealing with enigneered plague. The 3 color version also gives you access to engineered explosives in the board which is very nice. The disadvantages is the mana base, but I believe the rewards that the 3 colors is worth the risk.

The R/b list has a very solid mana base, but I felt the sideboard answers to plague just isn't that good. In regards to the GP, you have to have a reliable way to deal with plague, since they will be all over the place. Black has earwig squad and drualu's crusade. Those are not reliable answers for myself, but the version is very strong all depending on the meta game your expecting.

The mono red list is the most interesting that I've played with so far because I felt it could be very strong. In this version I've played anywhere from 2-3 goblin kings main deck for the raw power of just winning. The mana base is strong with 4 wastes and 4 ports with 6 fetches in the deck. I do still believe in fetches b/c shuffling your deck has always been a positive experience for myself.

The sideboard would have a number of gaunlet of mights to help better fight through plagues and just for some more raw power in certain matchups. No one would see this card coming and lets you generate a ton of mana the next turn after it hits play. I would probably still play the 1 sharpshooter in the board, but would definitely have at least one additional one in the board. I would probably include combo hate with some combination of pillar/chalice in the board.

I'm still playing around with the mono-red version, so when I get some results and the build I settle on, I'll post it.

Let me know your guys thoughts about the different versions and what might be best in the metagame today.
01-13-2009, 01:27 PM
GreenOne

Re: [DTW] Vial Goblins

I'd stick with monored right now, due to the huge amount of Land Disruption people is playing nowadays.

Also, going monored you have a reason to run maindeck Relic, which is just huge against a good number of matchups.

Decks to beat right now:
DreadStill
Goblins
Landstill
AggroLoam
Team America
Rock
ANT
UGr Thrash
UGb Thresh
UGw Thresh

In bold the decks that are packing LD suites and underlined decks that are using their graveyard somehow.

3 color versions are actually more powerful, cause they let you deal with Enchantments/Bigger Creatures/whatever.

So you have to carefully look at your metagame, each version has pros and cons.
Those are the reasons to run MonoRed:
- You can play 4 ports, punishing control decks with shaky manabases and often decks that are making their manabase shake just to play LD suites (like UGr Thresh or Team America).
- You have maindeck Grave Hate. This could be huge if your meta features Goyfs, Tombstalkers, Loam, Witnesses, Ichorid, IGG, etc in good numbers.
- Your meta has many "stifles+daze+waste" decks, for obvious reasons.
- There are a good number of Goblin decks. Weirding sucks hard against them.
- You can run Blood Moon and still can play 100% of your cards.

Those are the reasons to run 3 colors:
- You have a better shot against aggro-control decks, cause Weirding is good against goyf, tombstalker and dreadnough. It's also a goblin, so you can tutor and ringleader it.
- You have ways to deal with problematic enchantments with Krosan Grip, without being prone to suboptimal stuff like Anarchy, Shattering Spree.
- You actually just run the best cards the deck can run.

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by nickrit2000

The mono red list is the most interesting that I've played with so far because I felt it could be very strong. In this version I've played anywhere from 2-3 goblin kings main deck for the raw power of just winning. The mana base is strong with 4 wastes and 4 ports with 6 fetches in the deck. I do still believe in fetches b/c shuffling your deck has always been a positive experience for myself.

I'd NEVER play monored with Fetchlands in it. Stifle is one of the reasons you're just running monored. Goblin king is also a quite strange choice, unless your meta is filled with plague and/or red decks. I'll just ignore the plague problem or play multiple Goons against it (they're also good against aggrocontrol/pyroclasm)

Here's my list right now:
// Lands
15 [7E] Mountain (1)
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [MM] Rishadan Port

// Creatures
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [7E] Goblin Matron
2 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [TE] Mogg Fanatic
(1 [LE] Goblin Goon)
1 [PLC] Stingscourger

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

// Sideboard
(SB: 3 [LE] Goblin Goon)
SB: 4 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [MI] Goblin Tinkerer
(SB: 3 [FUT] Magus of the Moon)
SB: 2 [MR] Chalice of the Void

In () the slots I'm still undecided.
01-13-2009, 02:08 PM
Eldariel

Re: [DTW] Vial Goblins

I feel with the amount of Tombstalkers and Dreadnoughts around, you just can't afford any less than 3 Stingscourgers and I definitely find Stingscourger is better than Fanatic (just look at the decks you listed; Fanatic has relevant targets in the mirror and maybe vs. The Rock, while being mostly reduced to chump/Jitte-blocking duty vs. the rest, being only excellent against Ichorid which wasn't even listed). I'd really look into playing 4 even.

Also, I agree with GreenOne regarding fetches; no matter how much you like shuffling your library and slightly better first Ringleader, with the amount of Stifles flying around, there's just no excuse for playing Fetches if you don't have a big time reason (such as a splash colour, Grim Lavamancer or Brainstorm).

Finally, Goblin King looks weird, especially with the metagame leaning towards blue nowadays. It was playable at one point when mountains dominated the metagames, but just the boost effect alone isn't enough to play it over any other Goblin, and if you play Stingscourgers, you frankly shouldn't need it. If I wanted a boost Goblin, I'd play Goblin Pyromancer to that effect for those one-turn wins. Also, in mono-red, I still find Patron of the Akki (oldschool!) to be the best Plague-answer, simply because it's proactive and huge and still uses your team and gives opponent less time to answer it (and nobody sees it coming). Also, Plagues don't seem to be played in numbers. Heck, quick search through Deckcheck shows a grand total of two Plagues in Top 8s over the last 6 months. And we still have the mana denial plan vs. them.
01-13-2009, 02:17 PM
ScatmanX

Re: [DTW] Vial Goblins

To be honest, when people started talking about going back to MonoR, I was confused. The evolution of the deck, per say, would be a 2 or more colors deck, because then we have acess to more answers. But then I started to think deeper in to it. Goblin is, in my opinion, the best agroo deck there is. But from some time to now, they've lost a big deal of their power. (we are no DTW for Crist sake!) That happened because of 1- Decks running 2cc dudes that are huge (Goyf, Stalker, Nought...) and 2- The rise of combo (you may read creation of Ad Nausea). But then again, in the last Set, we got Relic of Progenitous. That is the single most versatile card agains't our biggest problems. We put black in the deck to have acess to Warrens Weirding's, but relic solve the big dudes issue way better. Relic is also not dead in the mirror, once it cantrips, and can even shut down an oponent anoying Wort. GreenOne listed well where it is good, and Taco has defended it a lot in the last few pages. They're right.

Well, with all that said, I should tell you that I'm currently running Rb. The mana haven't been an issue so far, so what the hell. If I realize I'm loosing more games because of the splash than winning, I'll change to MonoR again, but that isn't happening yet.
About Rgb, I don't have experience (no $ for taigas...=/).

Mantis, if you want to know wich is the best to play in a certain tournament, I would say to pick the one you're most familiarized with. I made so many mistakes in the first times I played Rb, it was ridiculous. But for me, up until now, the b splash has worth it.
As a final thought: I can't say wich version is THE best. guess no one can actually.but that's the beauty of the thing, isn't it?

On MonoRed again, analising GreenOne's list, guess I'd do only some little changes. Gempalm, as your only removal, should be upped (I've seen that Stingscourer, but stil... and they should be upped also). And I really like a 3rd Relic main, because... well, it's awesome. Also, I would really like to see a Sharpshooter MD, cause we have no splash godammit, so we have to rape other goblins, even G1. Me don't like no artifact hate, so 1 Tinkerer is also neat (saw it in the SB, so ok). Goons are nice agains't plague, that card is a matter of taste (I used to run Goblin Caves. It was fun). Guess that 23 lands for only 2 Siege-Gangs are too much. I would A: up the number os Gang-Bangs or B: cut a land. No Fetchs=good. SB could have 1 Pyromancer or 1 King, to rape mirror. (pyromancer is also neat agins't Empty the Warrens.)
01-14-2009, 09:37 AM
Tacosnape

Re: [DTW] Vial Goblins

I'm still running RB, for what it's worth, though I think Mono-Red and R/G both got playable in the world of Relic of Progenitus. RBG never felt quite comfortable to me, and I absolutely hated not randomly winning games from the tiny bit of game-slowing action I got with Rishadan Port.

I'm of the opinion that Black is worth it almost exclusively for Warren Weirding still. I've never been a big fan of Wort, I could still go either way on Earwig Squad, and anything else black I'm not a huge fan of either.

That said, of all cards in the universe, I've actually been getting significant mileage out of Duress in my sideboard. I picked it over Thoughtseize due to the two life being relevant from time to time, especially against random things like Burn, and because any time I ever board Duress in, it's because I'm facing a deck with very little in the creature department and that I have too much removal maindeck. I pick Duress over Cabal Therapy because it's stronger against combo decks where missing a blind Therapy could cost me the game. (Duress still isn't anywhere close to enough to sway combo to my favor, but it tends to be better than Warren Weirding/Gempalm.) It also randomly hits problem cards. Plague. Humility. Etc.

My list at current.

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Badlands
2 Wooded Foothills (Testing Auntie's Hovel for Stifle-dodging)
4 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port

4 Aether Vial
4 Warren Weirding

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Mogg Fanatic
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Tinkerer (Something else I'm re-testing. May go back to being 4th Gempalm or 3rd Siege-Gang.)

SB:
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Duress
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Chalice of the Void/Pithing Needle/Goblin Tinkerer
01-19-2009, 12:02 PM
Mantis

Re: [DTW] Vial Goblins

Yesterday I played in a 156 man (I believe) tourney. I ended up going 5-3 after being very close to making T8.

I played the following list:
15 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port

4 Aether Vial
2 Stingscourger
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Tinkerer

SB:
4 Pyrokinesis
3 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
2 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Stingscourger
4 Chalice of the Void

I didn't really like my SB, the Pyrokinesis were awesome though. Jittes were only good for anti Jitte hate, so I guess Shattering Spree or something might have been better in that slot.
Relics won me a ton of games. The mono red base was incredible. The sideboard could have been better, I'm thinking about taking out the Jittes and the Stingscourger for more combo hate. Either Thorn of Amethyst or Pyrostatic Pillar is going to get the nod. If I had 4 Pillar I think I would have had a shot in the Solidarity and Elf Combo matchup.

My results were:
2-1 vs. Boros with Soltari Priest, Lightning Helix, Lions, Vial, Fanatics and some other stuff. I had Vial in the 2 games I won and this proved to be critical. In one game I used Vialed in a Stingscourger which returned Isamaru and traded with Savannah Lions, this tempo swing won me the game. Also, thanks to all my Mountains he wasn't able to disrupt my mana with Wasteland.

1-0 vs. RB Goblins, he got a Gameloss for mis registering his deck. He was ahead most of the game thanks to Ringleader, but I had Vial and he didn't so I could drop all my creatures. Again Vial into Stingscourger won me the game as he attacked with Warchief and Piledriver and I traded with Chief and returned the Piley. I was stuck on low land though, so I was happy that my lands couldn't be Wastelanded, although I did have Vial.

1-2 vs. Eva Green, this was painful. I can't recall this match very well. I did have Relic in 2 games, of which one I won. The game where I did have it, he started with Hypnotic Specter and he Reanimated my Warchief when I was tapped out and couldn't use Relic. If only he would have drawn his Goyfs or Tombstalkers I would have easily won that game. Second game I blew him out. On the 3rd game he was stuck on mana ( he had a Waste and a Swamp), I had two options; one was to just play out my Goblins and hope to gain enough tempo to win, the other was tie him down with Rishadan Port. I chose the first because I figured that I would only give him the oppurtunity to draw himself out of the situation. I believe I picked right, but he happened to have Engineered Plague and I couldn't recover when Goyf came down next.

2-0 vs. Team America, he got stuck on mana both games. This was really easy, his Stifles and Wastes didn't hurt me and I could Waste and Port his lands.

2-1 vs. UGWB Good stuff? with Confidant, Goyf, Trygon Predator, STP, FoW, Brainstorm and Chrome Mox. Game one he blew me out with first turn Confidant off Chrome Mox, second turn Confidant. I couldn't recover from his card advantage. Game two, I manascrewed him with Waste/Port and game three I can't really recall. I think Vial or Lackey just went to distance while I was tying up his mana.

2-1 vs. UG Threshold, with Mongrel, Aquamoeba, Goyf, Wonder, Back to Basics (MAINDECK!) and Basking Rootwalla I knew what he was playing and I knew what he was playing. We figured out I would have the advantage and that proved to be true. Relics just owned him. Only threat I feared was Mongrel, and I mean Goblins should be able to beat a Mongrel. I made a ton of mistakes this round as I hadn't eaten much and was a bit dried out. I was also a bit tense as I knew I would have a good shot at making T8 if I won this. I still won because the match is so favorable. The game he won, he started of by setting EE @ 1 and I had Vial in my hand. The rest of my hand was awfully slow. He then got Mongrel with Jitte and I could never recover from the tempo loss. The third game I sided in Jittes to destroy his Jittes, he never saw the Jittes though. I played around Daze quite nicely though, but the matchup is so favorable (with the basic lands and the Relic) I just couldn't lose.

1-2 vs. Elf combo.....
Yeah I was quite pissed to see this matchup. If I would have won this match I could have drawn into T8.
First game I was stuck on land, he blew me out with the combo.
Second game, Pyrokinesis made short work of his Elves and Port tied up his mana.
Third game was really exciting, I had Vial and I managed to survive until I got three counters. He was low on mana so Port was pretty good here. Port + Vial allowed me to gain a lot of tempo. I got Port at 3 and used Matron to look for Sharpshooter. I could searched for Incinerator as well to burn out the Nettle Sentinel he had used Chord of Calling to look for. I opted he would still probably win in the long run that way. I then passed my turn and he went off next turn, I think he just topdecked his way out of that one, because if I got Sharpshooter down that would have made the difference.

I was really frustrated to lose this match, as I would have definately won this if I had the chance to start. I also forgot to board in Chalice, in retrospect this might have cost me the match. With 4 Chalice, 4 Pyrokinesis and 1 Sharpshooter and perhaps even the Jittes I think I would have had a pretty decent matchup.

0-2 against Solidarity.
I was frustrated about not making T8 and then I also got the worst possible matchup to f**k up my end result. I looked at the tables next to me and all the other decks felt like decks I could handle. If I would have had a different pairing I might have won here and I would at least win a fetch or Vindicate or something, now I got one Asian Champions of Kamigawa booster...

My friend Duncan, who goes by DKK on here, proceeded to finish third with Dreadstill. Let me tell you folks, Dreadstill is the best deck in the format. 2 Dreadstill decks in the T4 says enough. And because numbers 1 and 2 didn't want to go to GP Chitown he got the honour instead. So I'm glad for him, although it did mean we had to stay at the tournament site for another 4 hours. A draft and a T4 game with the coolest stack ever made up for the waiting though.

If I would play Goblins again, I would definately keep it mono red. I am not sure if I would play 4 Relics maindeck, 2 or 3 might be the right number. I would play 4 Mogg Fanatics in my 75, I really missed them. Tinkerer would be delegated to the sideboard and more Stingscourger would be maindeck.

It was an awesome day, but finishing with such a poor record after such a good start was just a bit disappointing.

-Mantis.
01-19-2009, 12:19 PM
ScatmanX

Re: [DTW] Vial Goblins

Congrats on the champ Mantis. Seems you were paired with 2 badmatchs (combo), and got unlucky in the other. Nice to see monoR doing so well. And the list looks good. Though I would make the changes you sugested.
01-19-2009, 12:27 PM
GreenOne

Re: [DTW] Vial Goblins

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mantis

1-2 vs. Eva Green, this was painful. I can't recall this match very well. I did have Relic in 2 games, of which one I won. The game where I did have it, he started with Hypnotic Specter and he Reanimated my Warchief when I was tapped out and couldn't use Relic.

Here you could just let the opponent declare the target, then tap relic (without needing any mana) to target yourself and decide to remove Warchief. If relic was already tapped, I don't get why, unless your opponent had 5-6 cards in the grave.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mantis

If I would play Goblins again, I would definately keep it mono red. I am not sure if I would play 4 Relics maindeck, 2 or 3 might be the right number. I would play 4 Mogg Fanatics in my 75, I really missed them. Tinkerer would be delegated to the sideboard and more Stingscourger would be maindeck.

How was incinerator like? I've lately experienced some problems with it, being uncapable of removing even the little dudes before 3rd turn (with lackey as only first turn creature-drop), like Confidants.
I guess a number of Fanatics are good in the deck, but what you'd remove? I'd go with -1 Tinkerer -1 Incinerator +2 Fanatics, maybe. I do not believe Fanatics have to be sb cards, though.

Anyway, congrats on your performance. You did well, just had a bit of unluck in the elves matchup.
And, yay, monored still rocks! :cool:
01-19-2009, 12:55 PM
Mantis

Re: [DTW] Vial Goblins

@Gempalm, yeah it wasn't that great in retrospect. Might want to remove some of them for more Fanatics/Stingscourgers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreenOne

Here you could just let the opponent declare the target, then tap relic (without needing any mana) to target yourself and decide to remove Warchief. If relic was already tapped, I don't get why, unless your opponent had 5-6 cards in the grave.

I always tap my Relic in my mainphase, to limit the number of cards my opponent can remove. Also, you can not respond to a Tombstalker, so it's best to have as much cards removed as possible. A Tombstalker could also come off Dark Ritual if the opponent doesn't have a lot of cards in his grave.
I would never have foreseen a Reanimate on one of my creatures, so I may have to reconsider that strategy against Eva Green and Team America postboard maybe. If I had thought about Reanimate I would never have tapped my Relic, but alas, it was too late.

Thanks for the kind words GreenOne and Scatman, though I wouldn't claim my performance on bad luck. I had my fair share of luck throughout the tournament (see the Goblins and Team America matches).
01-19-2009, 12:58 PM
GreenOne

Re: [DTW] Vial Goblins

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mantis

A Tombstalker could also come off Dark Ritual if the opponent doesn't have a lot of cards in his grave.

If the number is 3 or less you usually just don't have to worry. You can also remove a card in responce to Dark Ritual in this case.
01-19-2009, 01:12 PM
Mantis

Re: [DTW] Vial Goblins

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreenOne

If the number is 3 or less you usually just don't have to worry. You can also remove a card in responce to Dark Ritual in this case.

True, I guess you are right, I will keep this in mind in future matches against Team America and Eva Green. That might have cost me the match..
01-19-2009, 01:17 PM
ScatmanX

Re: [DTW] Vial Goblins

I also wouldn't predict a reanimate from the otherside. Nevertheless, I think is best to tap it eot...

About luck on TA, I wouldn't call it that. 4 Relics main and no Fetch/nonbaisc are bombs agains't them. Your deck were prepared for the match.
01-19-2009, 01:26 PM
Mantis

Re: [DTW] Vial Goblins

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScatmanX

About luck on TA, I wouldn't call it that. 4 Relics main and no Fetch/nonbaisc are bombs agains't them. Your deck were prepared for the match.

True but it was never really a match. If I came with Ports/Waste 4 Mons Goblins, 4 Raging Goblins, 4 Adder-Staff Boggart and 4 Goblin War Buggy I still would have won. The guy was so unlucky I almost felt sorry for him, it was pretty unreal.
01-19-2009, 04:55 PM
Nelis

Re: [DTW] Vial Goblins

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mantis

1-0 vs. RB Goblins, he got a Gameloss for mis registering his deck. He was ahead most of the game thanks to Ringleader, but I had Vial and he didn't so I could drop all my creatures. Again Vial into Stingscourger won me the game as he attacked with Warchief and Piledriver and I traded with Chief and returned the Piley. I was stuck on low land though, so I was happy that my lands couldn't be Wastelanded, although I did have Vial.

So I played you that second round. :-) I thought you were playing very dangerously against me. You did an all out attack without being able to kill me. If I had not drawn a Siege-gang Commander on my turn but another Goblin you would have lost. Because I could have gone Warchief, Piledriver, Piledriver, random goblin. You knew I had at least a piledriver and a Warchief in hand So I had a lot of outs.

You were definitely in a better board position than me but I was the control player in this matchup. But you won fair and square, I was stupid for not having checked my list.

I went 5-3 as well, playing Rb Goblins. I lost to you. A very badly playing German guy, it was a tough match-up though because of Jittes and I just barely lost. And I lost to 43 Land, a terrible match-up.

This was my list:
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Auntie's Hovel
4 Mountain
4 Rishadan Port
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
4 Badlands

4 Aether Vial
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Lackey

1 Goblin Tinkerer
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Warren Weirding

1 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief

1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
4 Goblin Ringleader

2 Siege-Gang Commander

Sideboard:
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
4 Chalice of The Void

I expected a lot of (aggro)control and ANT. That's why my SB is very anti-combo. I did not just want to roll over and die to combo. I figured I would be able to win against other aggro decks. And a lot of my SB cards are good vs other match-ups as well because they're very generic (right use of words?).

The only combo I actually encountered was High Tide, which I won.

I really like my deck choices but will exchange a Siege-gang Commander for a Goblin Sharpshooter. I don't like drawing Siege-gangs in multiples, I rather search for them. And I might take out Wort as well next time. Don't know what to exchange it for though.
01-19-2009, 05:15 PM
Ectoplasm

Re: [DTW] Vial Goblins

List I played with yesterday, in the same tourney:

22 land (6 dual, 7 fetch, 5 mountains and 4 waste)
4 lackey, fanatic, vial
4 piledriver, 3 weirding, 1 TSH
4 matron, warchief, 2 incinerator, 1 sharpshooter
4 ringleader, 1 wort
2 SGC

Side: 4x grip, relic, 3x choke, 1x gaea's blessing, squad, vexing shusher and stingscourger

Went 4-4, sadly :( Faced TES and 43land.dec and kept some shitty hands, doing bad on mulligans overall.
Even though I really miss my ports I still like RGB, but I'm probably cutting Wort. All she has EVER done, is get back one (1) gempalm incinerator and there's way better goblins to cast most of the time.
The random stingscourger SB proved itself valuable time and time again, love that card, never used the blessing even though there were a couple of painter.dec so I'm just gonna keep it for now and rack it up to bad luck and I played 2 goblin mirrors and an elf aggro deck with the glimpse combo as extra tech where the sharpshooter proved to be gamewinning, along with the fanatics, which I still love.
01-19-2009, 06:46 PM
Eldariel

Re: [DTW] Vial Goblins

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mantis

1-2 vs. Eva Green, this was painful. I can't recall this match very well. I did have Relic in 2 games, of which one I won. The game where I did have it, he started with Hypnotic Specter and he Reanimated my Warchief when I was tapped out and couldn't use Relic. If only he would have drawn his Goyfs or Tombstalkers I would have easily won that game. Second game I blew him out. On the 3rd game he was stuck on mana ( he had a Waste and a Swamp), I had two options; one was to just play out my Goblins and hope to gain enough tempo to win, the other was tie him down with Rishadan Port. I chose the first because I figured that I would only give him the oppurtunity to draw himself out of the situation. I believe I picked right, but he happened to have Engineered Plague and I couldn't recover when Goyf came down next.

The primary question here once again is your hand. If you've got the landdrops (or Vial/Lackey, of course), you'll play the control-game. If you need to just devote yourself to tapping lands and can't advance your own gameplan at all in the meanwhile, you play the aggro-game and pray. But ideally, you want to be denying their mana always to fight the Plagues. Also, having Patron of the Akki would be huge. If you don't have the control-elements, the bigger question is if keeping your opener was correct.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mantis

1-2 vs. Elf combo.....
Third game was really exciting, I had Vial and I managed to survive until I got three counters. He was low on mana so Port was pretty good here. Port + Vial allowed me to gain a lot of tempo. I got Port at 3 and used Matron to look for Sharpshooter. I could searched for Incinerator as well to burn out the Nettle Sentinel he had used Chord of Calling to look for. I opted he would still probably win in the long run that way. I then passed my turn and he went off next turn, I think he just topdecked his way out of that one, because if I got Sharpshooter down that would have made the difference.

There's a definite question of what you've got in hand at this point. If your hand has enough fuel to kill him in two turns or so, this play looks really weak. Incinerator would've been my pick provided that you had the lands to port and use it; the extra card would've gone a long way, and could've been e.g. Pyrokinesis or a second Incinerator. Also, Chalice is a definite SB card. I managed to lose to the Elf combo once too, because I didn't play Fanatics and while I had a bit more removal, I failed to draw a killer hand (I didn't have Pyrokinesis).

Landing SGC is practically game win right there though - they have no means of protecting their Elves from it and you can easily wreck their engine and laugh. It's definitely in our favor with Fanatic, but even just Pyrokinesis on the SB is enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mantis

0-2 against Solidarity.
I was frustrated about not making T8 and then I also got the worst possible matchup to f**k up my end result. I looked at the tables next to me and all the other decks felt like decks I could handle. If I would have had a different pairing I might have won here and I would at least win a fetch or Vindicate or something, now I got one Asian Champions of Kamigawa booster...

Solidarity really isn't all that bad a match-up. Between Lackey, Port and Chalice, you're actually well-equipped to beat them. Back in 2005, Mono-Red Goblins about split with Solidarity. The fact that their fundamental turn is 4 means you can win before them even on the draw, and having two cards for relevant disruption does a lot. You may have missed a lot of relevant plays by giving it up. Good mulligans and aggressive hands are all it takes; force them to have the FoW and then punish them for losing the cards. Port in response to High Tide (when they're going off; otherwise on their turn of course) and make sure they have to go off ASAP.
01-20-2009, 01:13 AM
FoulQ

Re: [DTW] Vial Goblins

I know this might sound crazy but...

has anyone tried splashing blue JUST for stifle, and maybe BEB (or some other blue card I'm not thinking of) out of the sideboard? It would play like monored with 4 ports and 4 wastelands, but you get 4 stifles to help in the mana denial package and sideboarding options open up. And you aren't sacrificing any more to Ringleader than other splashes.

Just a thought.
01-20-2009, 05:33 AM
Mantis

Re: [DTW] Vial Goblins

@Nelis: My play seemed right at the time as it forced you to make some unfavorable trades. Perhaps I should have waited indeed, but that gave you the time to get back into the game. If I wouldn't have attacked you could overwhelm me and I might have lost. I am not good enough at math that I could calculate the odds on the spot (I think nobody really is), so I just had to go with my gut.

Anyway, your list and sideboard look very solid. I would cut a few cards to fit in Pyrokinesis, that card is nuts. I dislike the Wort though, would replace it with Earwig Squad. Also, I don't really like the Stronghold. If I were to play RB Goblins your list is probably close to what I would run.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eldariel

The primary question here once again is your hand. If you've got the landdrops (or Vial/Lackey, of course), you'll play the control-game. If you need to just devote yourself to tapping lands and can't advance your own gameplan at all in the meanwhile, you play the aggro-game and pray. But ideally, you want to be denying their mana always to fight the Plagues. Also, having Patron of the Akki would be huge. If you don't have the control-elements, the bigger question is if keeping your opener was correct.

There's a definite question of what you've got in hand at this point. If your hand has enough fuel to kill him in two turns or so, this play looks really weak. Incinerator would've been my pick provided that you had the lands to port and use it; the extra card would've gone a long way, and could've been e.g. Pyrokinesis or a second Incinerator. Also, Chalice is a definite SB card. I managed to lose to the Elf combo once too, because I didn't play Fanatics and while I had a bit more removal, I failed to draw a killer hand (I didn't have Pyrokinesis).

Landing SGC is practically game win right there though - they have no means of protecting their Elves from it and you can easily wreck their engine and laugh. It's definitely in our favor with Fanatic, but even just Pyrokinesis on the SB is enough.

Solidarity really isn't all that bad a match-up. Between Lackey, Port and Chalice, you're actually well-equipped to beat them. Back in 2005, Mono-Red Goblins about split with Solidarity. The fact that their fundamental turn is 4 means you can win before them even on the draw, and having two cards for relevant disruption does a lot. You may have missed a lot of relevant plays by giving it up. Good mulligans and aggressive hands are all it takes; force them to have the FoW and then punish them for losing the cards. Port in response to High Tide (when they're going off; otherwise on their turn of course) and make sure they have to go off ASAP.

I don't know, Patron of the Akki seems terrible. I can usually beat one Plague, I even did so in one of the two games where my opponent got it down. There are also a ton of games where I can just cut my opponent off mana so he never gets to play Plague. I don't think Patron of the Akki would make a difference in that particular game. If I have enough mana and gas I can still win through one Plague and if I don't I can't cast Patron of the Akki anyway.

I had no gas versus Elves, that was the problem. Incinerator or Sharpshooter would both have been a gamble, in hindsight I should have fetched out the Incinerator, but that's easy talking. As he didn't go off the turns before I figured that if I could get Sharpshooter on the table it would be GG unless he would draw one of his outs the following turn. If I would fetch out Incinerator I would have been the one depending on my topdecks and things could still horribly go wrong.
I think the real mistake I made that game was not bringing in Chalices.

Vs. Solidarity there was just nothing I could do. First game he had FoW and Remand + tons of cantrips to sculpt the perfect hand.
Second game, I mulliganned my hand with (I think) a Lackey, one land and 2 Chalices. I figured that if I were to draw a land I could land a Chalice at one on my second turn and I would be in good position. It was not to be.. he killed me on turn 3.

Anyway, looking in hindsight I could have made T8 if I played a little better. The T8 looked very good for me, so I really feel bad right now. I truly made the right call with mono R and the Relics maindeck.
01-20-2009, 11:50 AM
Nelis

Re: [DTW] Vial Goblins

Quote:

Originally Posted by nickrit2000

The RBG list is probably my current favorite b/c of all the answers it has access to by playing 2 splashes for main deck and sideboard. The benefits of the deck is having access to tin street and krosan grip in the board. I always felt that you have to find a way with dealing with enigneered plague. The 3 color version also gives you access to engineered explosives in the board which is very nice. The disadvantages is the mana base, but I believe the rewards that the 3 colors is worth the risk.

The R/b list has a very solid mana base, but I felt the sideboard answers to plague just isn't that good. In regards to the GP, you have to have a reliable way to deal with plague, since they will be all over the place. Black has earwig squad and drualu's crusade. Those are not reliable answers for myself, but the version is very strong all depending on the meta game your expecting.

So basically you're saying (please, correct me if I'm wrong) that you weaken your mana base so you can play Engineered Explosives and Krosan Grip just because of Enqineered Plague? Which means that you are much more vulnerable to Wastelands and to lesser extent Stifles, which you will encounter more often than sideboarded Engineered Plagues?

The only other reason you play green is Tin Street Hooligan I suppose? Goblin Tinkerer does exactly the same thing. And you can cast a Tinkerer with a Goblin Warchief in play which you cannot do with Tin Street Hooligan.

You do not really need Krosan Grip against Counterbalance in my opinion. Before CounterTop is online you already have played your key 1cc/ 2cc spells. And they have a hard time countering your 3cc+ spells after that.

And if you run EE and Grip in your SB what do you do against combo decks?

With black in your sideboard you can still preemptively get rid of Engineered Plague/Counterbalance by means of Duress/Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy, whichever of those you like to play, and at the same time have proper answers to fight combo decks.

Or is the US metagame really that different from the European one?
01-20-2009, 12:35 PM
sauce

Re: [DTW] Vial Goblins

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreenOne

I'd stick with monored right now, due to the huge amount of Land Disruption people is playing nowadays.

Also, going monored you have a reason to run maindeck Relic, which is just huge against a good number of matchups.

Decks to beat right now:
DreadStill
Goblins
Landstill
AggroLoam
Team America
Rock
ANT
UGr Thrash
UGb Thresh
UGw Thresh

In bold the decks that are packing LD suites and underlined decks that are using their graveyard somehow.

The rock uses the graveyard too for Goyf growth & Eternal witness.

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