Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mossivo1986
Its also great when your opponent grips your top, then you drop ruins and snag it back (Shakes baby powder over hand) "Pimp hand motha FU@%&*!!"
With all the evidence this is the worst case scenario to play ruins :tongue: Especially in the mirror or against deck with grip, the best situation is when they CS/force/grip your top (they have the strange idea that landstill has room only for one or a couple of them) and then you pop another one out of your hand, lol! I forgot to mention the great synergy academy ruins has with fact or fiction: when the opponent separates the piles so that we are force to chose between artifacts and permission/removals, we can easily take the removals and then land ruins. The expression on their faces is really worth. "Now who's the last to laugh?" Muahahahaha (Being serious: ruins make your fof's a 3U: draw 4 cards.)
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
gustha
I might add a 24th land too, to help consisntency, but I don't find room)
I've been thinking of doing the same as well but 24 lands are alot, especially if you have draw and library manipulation such as the Top.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Misplayer
The issue is assembling WW is more important than UU+ in most Landstill builds (plus you run Factory, Wasteland, and probably Ruins).
Really? I typically assemble UU first in order to use my Counterspells, but then again, my deck uses 4 Swords to Plowshares and 2 Path to Exile. =\
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Holo_rip
what do you guy think of vedalken shackle in landstill ?
Well, we need to ask: do the Vedalken Shackles make Landstill do what it does better? I don't think so. I mean, why run a whole bunch of removal when you have Shackles? Anyhow, if you do run Shackles, say, in place of Wrath of God, your deck will definitely become more blue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
gustha
Leibniz would call landstill "the best possible deck"
If I recall correctly, he was mocked for this viewpoint by Voltaire in Candide. Anyhow, here, there are many decks to choose from, so you can definitely have a "better" deck.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mossivo1986
I firmly disagree. Academy ruins is what wins you the long term game in almost all of said games against a number of different Archtypes. I can't possibly see how anyone can just not run the card. Ruins is the way you consistently stop counterbalance.
I agree. Recurring Engineered Explosives is pretty useful in many situations. I mean, being able to set Engineered Explosives at 1-3cc every other turn can really keep the Goblins and Merfolk down.
Anyhow, here's my list. It's nothing groundbreaking. Rather traditional, I would say.
Land (23)
4 Mishras Factory
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Tropical Island
4 Island
4 Plains
Other (5)
2 Humility
3 Decree of Justice
Permission (11)
3 Spell Snare
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
Draw (9)
3 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Fact or Fiction
Removal (12)
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
3 Wrath of God
3 Engineered Explosives
Sideboard (15)
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Path to Exile
4 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Krosan Grip
1 Wrath of God
I dropped 2 Eternal Dragon for the 2 maindeck Humility. This also freed up room in the SB for Blue Elemental Blast. I have found you can never have too much one-for-one in a deck. Indeed, most of my trouble is attributing to not having a one-for-one spell early on to stop Goblin Lackey or a Dark Ritual-summoned Hypnotic Specter and etc. Otherwise, I can just drop my 1cc Engineered Explosives on turn one (for Vial), then drop Standstill or use Spell Snare and Counterspell on turn 2.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Your list looked meta'd against merfolk. If it is then it's quite good, but if not 3 wrath and 2 humility main are entirely overkill. Also, path is not as good as vindicate, your only current way to handle annoying things like counterbalance is engineered explosoives.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taishaku
Really? I typically assemble UU first in order to use my Counterspells, but then again, my deck uses 4 Swords to Plowshares and 2 Path to Exile. =\
Needing an early UU is one of the biggest weaknesses of Counterspell in my estimation. In your build, you'll often want UU turn 2 and WW turn 4 which makes your manabase super vulnerable to non-basic hate/stifle effects.
Fit 2 Elspeth in there, you will not regret it. I firmly believe it's one of the best cards in Landstill.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Misplayer
Fit 2 Elspeth in there, you will not regret it. I firmly believe it's one of the best cards in Landstill.
They are expensive but well worth it. There are 3 cards you pretty much have to run to be competitive running landstill. Elspeth, EE, and Force.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rockout
They are expensive but well worth it. There are 3 cards you pretty much have to run to be competitive running landstill. Elspeth, EE, and Force.
4 cards: Spell Snare is a must.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ultimoman
I've been thinking of doing the same as well but 24 lands are alot, especially if you have draw and library manipulation such as the Top.
Yeah, but as you can see in the last list I posted, I got back to fof so I might need a 24th land to stabilize. I might have got the solution, tx to mossivo for illuminating me (without wanting it ^^).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taishaku
Quote:
Originally Posted by gustha
Leibniz would call landstill "the best possible deck"
If I recall correctly, he was mocked for this viewpoint by Voltaire in Candide. Anyhow, here, there are many decks to choose from, so you can definitely have a "better" deck.
Voltaire was a mediocre philosopher (just by my opinion) who has not understand a thing of Leibniz. "The best world possible" does not mean this is a world in which suffering is extirpated or everybody leaves in peace (such a word is NOT possible, given the human nature); the modal cathegory of "possible" switches the reasoning from ethics (the point, the wrong point, on which Voltaire attacked Leibniz in Candide) to logic: "the best world possible" means: "the world in which we have the major possible number of effects given the least possible number of causes". In this sense, landstill is "the best deck possible", according to the same logic, because it's the deck in which we can achieve the major possible number of effects given the least possible combination of cards/causes. This is independent from the fact (the "ethic" or "performing" viewpoint) that the deck wins (which, nonetheless, it does). So, keep logic distinct from ethics and you can understand Leibniz.
And I agree with misplayer, assembling WW is most important of assembling UU. That's why some run only 2 counterspell. The reason is that you can remove all that you don't want to counter, this buys you the same time and saves your counters for the mid-late gae, in which they are more important. And since your removal/bombs are usually on the white side of the deck, assembling WW is far more important against the most of the field then assembling the mana for counterspell (I don't see any victory to goblin or merfolk, e.g. if you try to assemble counterspell before stp/path or wrath/EE).
Even spell snare is a must, 3 or 4 of them (due to the logic of remove what I can counter, I prefer 4 and 2 CS, focusing on removals, but that's up to you).
EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by That stupid game producer house which we call Wizards of the Coast
However, the acknowledgment that this zone is, in fact, fully within the game does bring about functional changes to the six Wishes, Ring of Ma'rûf, and the Research half of Research // Development. These cards let you get cards from "outside the game," which has been ruled to include your card collection (in casual games), your sideboard (in tournament games), and the removed-from-the-game zone. That's no longer the case. Exiled cards are not outside the game (and you could argue that they never really were), so these cards will no longer be able to access cards in that zone. Their primary functionality—getting cards from your collection or sideboard—remains unchanged, of course.
So no more wish on cards pitched to fow, that's great! (I'm sarcastic, of course.) These changes are stupid and done for a stupid purpose.
Quote:
Originally Posted by More and more stupid things
To figure out exactly where the problems were, we got into the mind of the casual player—not the player knee-deep in regular sanctioned play or Magic Online, but rather the one who plays our game at home, at school, or at the small local shop. We drew upon our own experiences and those of our co-workers. We ran focus tests. We went out in the field and played against such players—players who love, love, love Magic but don't have the need or desire to devote themselves to learning all the ins and outs of the rules.
It's just like conduit a poll on how difficult is driving a car on a sample of people who only ride bycicles. That's absolutely idiot! If people want to learn play magic, than for the sake of god pick up the f*cking and free downloadable Comprehensive Rules and just learn to play, if you want to access competitive magic. If you instead want to play at school, home, or at your local store, then by all means REMAIN AT SCHOOL (where you better study, incidentally), AT HOME OR AT YOUR DAMNED LOCAL STORE! However, with the reconsideration of damage step, our mishra's become nothing more than a mere mutavault with the option of dpumping now and then. I stopped playing vintage after the b/r's of last june. This june will be a good thing if I don't stop playing magic at all.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Oh shit, I forgot about mishra's factory getting nerfed in combat, that is absolutely lame. It doesn't even trade with a threshed mongoose anymore.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
I believe it still does: declare blockers, pump before damage. Also, who plays Mongoose anymore?
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Misplayer
I believe it still does: declare blockers, pump before damage. Also, who plays Mongoose anymore?
I believe so as well. From my understanding, the Factories aren't affected by this change. Mogg Fanatic on the other hand, is.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Hi Landstill folks, Im new to the mtg the source and like to pilot landstill too. Of cos i do play alot of decks. Recently after reading the articles here and do some tweaking based on Joel Aka Mossivo1986.
23 lands
4 tundras
1 underground sea
1 scrubland
1 tolaria west
1 academy ruin
3 mishra factory
4 flooded strand
1 polluted delta
3 islands
1 dustbowl
3 plains
6 artifacts
3 EE
3 Top
3 planewalkers
2 elspeth
1 jace
28 Spells
2 cunning wish
3 spell snare
3 counterspell
3 brainstorm
3 standstill
4 fow
2 decree of justice
2 wrath of God
1 humilty
1 enlightened tutor
4 sword to plowshares
SB
4 relic of progenitus
2 ajani goldmane
1 return to dust
1 stifle
1 path
3 BEB
1 pulse of the field
1 extirpate
1 cop red
@joel: i like ur build and after testing 3 x top are really needed. I place the relic to sb becos of own metagame. Also i put in one more land for consistency. counterspell may be overrated but it good to counter late stuff.
Mana base is very stable due to lot of basic. juz wonder what will u take out for burn in exchange for ajani?
To all, i juz feel that jace + top without disturbance is sick and top is good as it let u constantly dig out solution. Fact or fiction is good too as it give u CA but top is more consistent, faster and less prone to counter.
counterbalance is good when they land first and get adv over u. else EE will play ard it. Academy ruins is something should not be cut as recurring EE will bring problem to other player.
about wasteland? I duno i think 4 is too heavy, landstill need color and stability for early turn, dustbowl is more economical. if i were to play waste, probably 2 but of cos crucible will boost up more. Moreover, i notice lately ppl has been playing more basic, making ur wasteland more of killing their key land and dustbowl does handle this well.
Alright folks, do give me some critic on my build and sb, cheers
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Tutor sucks with only so few targets, 4 snare 2 cs>>>>>3/3 Split. Stifle is a really really bad wishtarget and more paths would be nutz.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NQN
Tutor sucks with only so few targets, 4 snare 2 cs>>>>>3/3 Split. Stifle is a really really bad wishtarget and more paths would be nutz.
I really, honestly dislike it when people write their posts like this. I wish people would stop 'stating' things (for example 4 snare 2 cs owns 3/3) and actually try and discuss why instead.
As far as I know Geoff is the most succesful Legacy landstill player out there and I didn't see a single snare in his last list, so flatout saying snares own CSpells warrants an eyebrow-raising emoticon from me at least :really:
I run 3/3 myself.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Well, it´s just like that, if one would actually read this thread, he´d notice at least one of the xXx discussions about Snare and CS.
Geoff is not in compete with anyone of us, 'cause he even wins with a list where the avg. cc. seems to be at ~5.
I just CAN_NOT understand how you can not run a full set of Spell Snares. It does exactly what the deck need. CS is good in the middle to lategame where Snare shines in the phase of the game where our deck usually sucks hard:
Early Game. So, why not play the best card for the worst phase we can have?
It counters EVERY spell except for Intuition thats strong against us and costs only one blue.
So thats my point. Play a set of SS or go f*** yourself.
Ah, and you really want me or any other to point out why stifle is a horrible wishtarget? I don´t think so...
Greetz,
NQN
EDIT: Btw, Snare really owns CS ;)
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ectoplasm
I really, honestly dislike it when people write their posts like this. I wish people would stop 'stating' things (for example 4 snare 2 cs owns 3/3) and actually try and discuss why instead.
As far as I know Geoff is the most succesful Legacy landstill player out there and I didn't see a single snare in his last list, so flatout saying snares own CSpells warrants an eyebrow-raising emoticon from me at least :really:
I run 3/3 myself.
It's not true that geoff does not run snare, they're in 3x in his sideboard. He does not run snare MD but for a very simple reason: he plays plenty of removal (3 wrath MD), so he survive till mid-late game without any particular difficulty, and so for him there's no reason to run snare MD while he can handle the very first turns in other manner. Remember that spending life points in the early stages of the game is a resource that some landstill player often try to forget.
Besides this, I hate stating post too: the nature (god or whichever you think is the cause of the universe, if you ever think the universe has a cause) gave us reasoning, so please let's use it! Landstill is based on the complicated interaction of a U part with a W part: basically, the golden rule is that in landstill you can remove all that you can't (or aren't able to) counter, and viceversa you shoul be able to counter all that you can't (or aren't able to) remove. You shouldn't have to fit a certain number of counters or removals just because someone told you so, but according to your playstyle and relating to other choices you made in your build. I myself prefer playing with a 4/2 split because:
a) my manabase runs 7 basics, so I've got no early UU (and, as we discussed above, it's more important to reach WW than UU in the very first turns);
b) I run a pack of 13 removals (7 spot and 5 mass, of which 4 are recurrable), so I keep counterspell for the mid-late game bombs and I love to have spell snare to keep my opponent's cheap threats away from the table, and keep the opponent himslef walking at my pace.
Most of the nasty things we would avoid have cc2 (counterbalance, survival, DD, life, tarmo, chalice@1, confi, counterspell, etc.), so snare is THE counter for the early game. And since I ALWAYS want to see a spell snare in my opening hand or near, 4 copies it's for me the right number. Instead, I like to see counterspells in a more advanced state of game, so 2x is for me the right number. It's not a logic necessity that this split is better than 3/3.
I think an approach as that of joel to the deck can work well with a 4/2 split, since the draw engine fairly supports the removal suite (which is lighter than mine), especially if you run sb tools like extirpate, negate, chant, or the like. Using correctly your removals may prove counterspells a little useless until midgame, but that's just opinion. I think joel shares this view as it runs a 4/2 split too (with clique instead of CS). And E tutor is a good sb card in that list, it may better be a crucible, another land, a path to exile, a disk...
EDIT: cleaned up ^^
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Predictions:
With 2010's rulings I predict Landstil Will be seeing alot more play.
I'm no longer working on the Wish Still list right now so I can't really offer you any kind of advice accept any lists you have seen on the thread. I spent alot of time going through card selections and different arguments. here is the final list I ran:
4 tundra
1 scrub
1 underground
4 Flooded
1 Polluted
3 island
3 plains
3 mishra
1 academy ruins
1 dust bowl
1 tolaria west
3 BS
3 top
3 standstill
1 jace
4 STP
3 EE
1 Wrath
1 humility
1 Disk
4 Force
4 snare
2 vendillion
2 elspeth
2 decree
sb:
1 pulse
1 pate
1 tutor
1 r2d
2 ajani
4 path
3 negate
1 relic
1 wrath/ shackles
The list works well but there are substantial problems with certain matchups aka merfolk and ant.
With 2010 screwing up the combat step and hurting ant with its mana shenanigans maybe magic with look in Land stills favor.
Currently as I said i'm working on another wish still list thats much different and more exciting with a couple of friends of mine.
Team Awesome
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
I myself played Cunning Wish to reasonable succes with 3 targets because. Sideboard sucks with only so few cards. If the meta is so defined you can manage with 3/5 targets why not? I believe you can manage your wishboard with Extirpate, Return to Dust and Pulse of the Field. Next to that I wouldn't add more than 2 cards like creature removal. My complete SB was:
1 Extirpate
1 Return to Dust
1 Pulse of the Field
3 Engineered Plague
3 Relic of Progenitus
4 Meddling Mage
2 Ajani, Goldmane
I could board against almost any matchup and wishes where never dead.
The meta here changed so much though that I believe( and with me others) that Vindi-Still is the best here. I also like Fact or Fiction more then Sensei's Divining Top. Sure it hits the board later, but hey I'm playing a control deck. I have 23 lands and alot of cheap answer to make sure I can cast Fact. A deck so full of bombs makes Fact or Fiction very dangerous.
Some people say that Fact or Fiction is slower, but that is'n true. Fact or Fiction can win the game on turn 5. It moves you from the mid-game in one giant leap to the late game, wich you will win most of the time. I do think that in a Cunning Wish build, Fact or Fiction is less needed.
Same goes for Jace, it's a good card but in Holland it's a semi, cantripping Sorcery speed 3-mana Fog. Elspeth protects here self with her soldiers so it works, but Jace is even more a liability then Standstill.
About the list Domokun:
It looks good I would change though
1) -1 Plains, +1 Polluted Delta.
The only reason for this are the Brainstorms and Sensei's Divining Top. Somewhere a whole time ago in the Solidarity thread some math geeks calculated that 6 would be the ideal shuffle cards with a deck with 4 Brainstorms. I came to the same conclusion with testing. With 3 Tops next to them I would really play 6 fetchlands going to 7 shuffle effects.
2) -1 Top
The card isn't bad( just not good in my meta) but you already have Enlightened Tutor too, so you already have 4 MD and you don't want to have 2 in your openinghand. But if you felt it was needed due to testing, go ahead.
3) -1 Stifle(SB)
NQN is right it's a poor target. Can you tell me what you want to Stifle? for most cards you have already a solution in the deck. Stifling Wasteland is hardly needed after turn 4. Pernicious Deed can be countered and normally it is used to blow up Humility so most of the time you can wish for Return to Dust. Same is true for Engineered Explosives.
For any other help I would like to know your meta. I see you don't have any combohate in your sideboard and 5 slots against Rx aggro.
Benie
EDIT: @ Mossivo, remember that Merfolk didn't loose any power either( in fact it gained power because Goblins is worse.) Merfolk isn't a nice matchup( not very bad though.) I would definitly keep Plague in the SB for that. It isn't the best answer but it hampers them still.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
gustha
It's not true that geoff does not run snare, they're in 3x in his sideboard. He does not run snare MD but for a very simple reason: he plays plenty of removal (3 wrath MD), so he survive till mid-late game without any particular difficulty, and so for him there's no reason to run snare MD while he can handle the very first turns in other manner. Remember that spending life points in the early stages of the game is a resource that some landstill player often try to forget. Besides this, I hate stating post too: the nature (god or whichever you think is the cause of the universe, if you ever think the universe has a cause) gave us reasoning, so please let's use it! Landstill is based on the complicated interaction of a U part with a W part: basically, the golden rule is that in landstill you can remove all that you can't (or aren't able to) counter, and viceversa you shoul be able to counter all that you can't (or aren't able to) remove. You shouldn't have to fit a certain number of counters or removals just because someone told you so, but according to your playstyle and relating to other choices you made in your build. I myself prefer playing with a 4/2 split because: a) my manabase runs 7 basics, so I've got no early UU (and, as we discussed above, it's more important to reach WW than UU in the very first turns); b) I run a pack of 13 removals (7 spot and 5 mass, of which 4 are recurrable), so I keep counterspell for the mid-late game bombs and I love to have spell snare to keep my opponent's cheap threats away from the table, and keep the opponent himslef walking at my pace. Most of the nasty things we would avoid have cc2 (counterbalance, survival, DD, life, tarmo, chalice@1, confi, counterspell, etc.), so snare is THE counter for the early game. And since I ALWAYS want to see a spell snare in my opening hand or near, 4 copies it's for me the right number. Instead, I like to see counterspells in a more advanced state of game, so 2x is for me the right number. It's not a logic necessity that this split is better than 3/3. I think an approach as that of joel to the deck can work well with a 4/2 split, since the draw engine fairly supports the removal suite (which is lighter than mine), especially if you run sb tools like extirpate, negate, chant, or the like. Using correctly your removals may prove counterspells a little useless until midgame, but that's just opinion. I think joel shares this view as it runs a 4/2 split too (with clique instead of CS). And E tutor is a good sb card in that list, it may better be a crucible, another land, a path to exile, a disk...
ghusta can you clean this up and make clear and precise posts instead of making one big paragraph which becomes difficult to keep my add focused on
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
2) -1 Top
The card isn't bad( just not good in my meta) but you already have Enlightened Tutor too, so you already have 4 MD and you don't want to have 2 in your openinghand. But if you felt it was needed due to testing, go ahead.
You don't win many games do you? Just kidding with you. Top is very good, and if one could run top x4 in landstill you would. Its that good. Its the single most consistent win card that landstill has just under force of will.
