Can we make a 3 color deck instead of 4 color deck?
Its already weak against wasteland
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Can we make a 3 color deck instead of 4 color deck?
Its already weak against wasteland
I did some quick testing with the 16 one mana beatsticks lists (guides, nacatl, ape, lion) and the deck is really consistent. I find that I am often flooding with 22 lands. You guys have no issues with 23? And I've been testing against decks with 4 wastelands, so I'm pretty sure 22 is plenty. Changes I noticed from traditional Pridemage/Kotr Zoo are:
1. It's really really fast and gives slower combo decks like Reanimator and Hive mind fits.
2. Equipment is a really big problem, especially batterskull. Without Pridemage, if they have the misstep/force for your removal on Stoneforge, it is Game Over.
3. It punishes the slower blue decks out there, especially the blue mirror-tuned misstep decks (Dismember over simple removal, really?). 16 Cat Zoo really punishes these mirror centric decks.
4. Wastelands has been very 50/50 for me. Sometimes its awesome and I screw them just enough to race their bombs. Sometimes, they just shrug it off since I'm giving them land with Guide/Path. I'm really not sold on wastes. They are fine, but the deck can do ok without them.
I agree, equipments can be very hard to deal with. But if your meta is filled with Stoneforge Mystic, you simply put Qasali Pridemage in main.
I am trying the Pat Cox build from SCG Richmond with 20 lands. In my experience, you don't want to use time on attacking their manabase with wasteland, especially when you are playing with goblin guide. It is extremely consistent, and if you get the opponent below 10 life, it should be possible to burn him to death. For reference, here is his build:
20 LANDS
4 Windswept Heath
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
23 CREATURES
2 Gaddock Teeg
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Loam Lion
4 Kird Ape
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
15 INSTANTS and SORCERIES
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Helix
3 Path to Exile
SIDEBOARD
1 Path to Exile
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Ranger of Eos
I have swapped SoBM with SoFF, but that can change anytime depending on meta. Actually I'm not even that sold on the single Stoneforge and 2 swords, but I havent found out what to put in instead. It should probably be some kind of graveyard hate like Tormod's Crypt or Faerie Macabre.
I play a slower zoo deck, with 2SFM, arbor, 2 noble and stuff,
will share it later btw.. And I also play 2 tins treet holigan, they're the bomb :)
But the problem is if I would look them with GSZ, than their effect doesn't count..
So I'm thinking of playing also qqasali who's better but the problem is you need to sac him.
what do you guys do against the faster decks and things that play natural order smt like that?
I mostly lose then.
But I'm also testing fast deck with only one and 2 drops and like Ivanpei says then you are mostly even faster then hove mind, or other combo decks, and the one drop is quite important, blue decks have it hard with many creatures and they can't counter them all and will die because of it.
I was thinking of smt like wing shards side :O?
the fast deck testing:
12 fetch
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Loam Lion
4 Kird Ape
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 POP
2 Fireblast
3 Path to Exile
It is so fast not normal and it owns but if you get to lategame you're fucked so I don't know still testing...
I see 12 fetchlands and 0 Steppe Lynx? Doinitwrong imo.
Why would that be wrong? Most people don't like Lynx, and there is nothing wrong with running 12 Fetches in a Grim Lavamancer deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by troopatroop
You really dont want more than 3 lands per game, unless you sided in Ranger of eos or elspeth. All lands I draw after the third is a card i rather wantet a thread or burn.
I still think Steppe Lynx is viable in Sligh-esque builds. I also think not running Wasteland in that strategy is a mistake.
Woah wait, people in the Zoo thread are finally interested in Fast Zoo again? I never thought I'd see the end of the Big Zoo craze.
Here's my Sligh list from like 2009 or 2010 or something:
R/g/w Naya Sligh
// Lands (20)
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
2 [R] Taiga
2 [R] Plateau
2 [UNH] Mountain
// Creatures (16)
4 [ZEN] Goblin Guide
4 [AN] Kird Ape
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [ZEN] Steppe Lynx
// Spells (24)
4 [R] Lightning Bolt
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
4 [ROE] Forked Bolt
4 [TSP] Rift Bolt
4 [FD] Magma Jet
4 [VI] Fireblast
// Sideboard (15)
SB: 4 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 4 [EX] Price of Progress
SB: 4 [SC] Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
Hi, I'm thinking playing this dark zoo in legacy but I also think if it could be ok in modern?? I was thinking something like this
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Helix
4 Dark Confidant
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Goblin Guide
4 Loam Lion
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
3 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Marsh Flats
4 Arid Mesa
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Sacred Foundry
1 Godless Shrine
2 Stomping Grounds
1 Blood Crypt
1 Temple Garden
2 Overgrown Tomb
don't know what to play in sb because don't what people are going to play. Any comments and thoughts about the list??
Has Domain Zoo been tried and excused from Legacy? I played it years ago when it was an Extended deck with Tribal Flames and Gaea's Might both being exceptionally strong at the time. I could see GM being less impressive with Legacy's wealth of one-mana removal spells and Wasteland may be a problem for both cards.
I may have answered my own question, but has it been tried?
I play it from time-to-time on MWS and it destroys. Although, that's hardly proof of its ability. Here's what I use.
4 Arid Mesa
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Taiga
1 Plateau
1 Badlands
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
1 Volcanic Island
1 Mountain
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Tribal Flames
3 Gaea's Might
I have an affinity for porting old Extended decks to Legacy since I started playing competitively around that time. Tribal Flames acts as a one sided Price of Progress from my experiences and Gaea's Might is super Giant Growth, but I can see its vulnerabilities. Too much liability for Legacy?
Has anyone tried running Mental Misstep in Zoo? If so, what variant were you running (i.e. normal, Cat Sligh, Big, Blue, etc.)?
I feel like any deck that isn't running Mental Misstep is simply suboptimal in the current metagame, since getting your 1-drop Misstepped is such a tempo beating. I have had some good success running Mental Misstep in Rubin Zoo for a few months since New Phyrexia came out, but I've decided to put Zoo aside since the metagame has shifted so much (with almost no Merfolk, Goblins, B/W to prey on).
It also seems like smaller Zoo variants with more one drops are have had some limited success in SCG Opens, although I'm not sure whether this is simply a reflection of the fact that smaller Zoo is the most popular form. None of the builds I have seen run Mental Misstep though, so if you have experience with that type of a deck, please give me some feedback! :smile:
The recent trend is to overload on one drops. MM is horrible in a pure aggro deck. Don't get sucked in, and don't think in a vacuum like you are/did in that post. Play through it, people aren't playing CB anymore, so filling up on cheap beats isn't a downside when you can cast multiple beaters a turn
I agree with what you said here, but despite containing a very similar core, Rubin Zoo plays out very differently than normal Zoo. It's certainly not a pure aggro deck, and it has enough card advantage to make up for the occasional dead Mental Misstep. I found that the most important factor in my opening hand towards winning (besides not being mana screwed/mana flooded) was actually having a Mental Misstep, rather than an aggressive one-drop. Mental Misstep is also awesome in Blue Zoo for obvious reasons, even though I think that deck has a lot of other problems working against it. Of course, I'm digressing, and I can understand why it can be potentially bad in smaller Zoo decks that gear towards speed.Quote:
Originally Posted by jandax
My problem with normal Zoo decks is it doesn't give you significant room to outplay your opponent. It's advantages are fairly obvious: it is extremely consistent and it punishes poor draws/decisions from your opponent. However, autoscooping to a Batterskull unless you're able to quickly rip a Qasali Pridemage seems pretty miserable; perhaps my perception of this matchup is flawed, and I wouldn't mind being correct, but as it currently stands, I don't like the fact that the deck isn't very flexible.
Zoo does not "Autoscoop" to Batterskull. Run some Pridemages, first of all, if you expect to see that card. Second, we have minimum of 12 removal spells for their turn 2 Stoneforge, and we want to be clearing the board of creatures anyway. Just "Autobolt" the Mystic and don't get Dazed. As long as you have at least 2 removal spells by turn 2 it's not that hard to fight through.
I'm up to 4 MD Pridemages and 2-3 Ancient Grudge in the board. I'm having more issues with Knight based decks than Batterskull decks.
I've switched to testing Cox' SCG list. I've played half a dozen matches so far and, as said above, it's pretty consistent. Things I dislike is lack of Pridemage main and lack of Price of Progress. Continuing, my experience with Lighting Helix is so-so; in other Zoo builds with less one-drops I didn't like it much but here it's okay, what with your curve being so low. IMO, the best thing about it is the fact that it's an instant.
Regarding the sideboard, Elspeth and Ranger of Eos with only 20 lands seem a bit risky.
All in all, I'm going to continue testing it, but running eight Apes and the full four Guides make the deck a bit of a one-trick pony, not to mention me a bit nervous, although the bucketfuls of burn go a long way to finish off an opponent once your apes have swung a few times.
The one-drop heavy, burn heavy lists are actually Sligh. Zoo and Sligh are fundamentally different.
Zoo attempts to overwhelm an opponent with creature beats, primarily using burn as removal. This is why those lists only run 7-8 burn spells, and run 20+ creatures. Zoo plans on doing the bulk of its damage via creature beats.
Sligh, on the other hand, only intends to use its creatures as more efficient burn spells. If a 3/3 Nacatl swings twice, thats 6 damage for 1 card and 1 mana. Once the creature plan goes to shit, and it will at some point, the deck switches to being a burn deck, and kills the opponent through inevitability. Sligh plans on doing alot more damage (to the dome) via burn spells than a Zoo list does.
When building a list that is on the borderline of Zoo and Sligh, it's important to keep the fundamentals of both strategies in mind. For example, you cannot have a one-drop heavy list with only a few burn spells and expect to do well.
Sligh is all about effeciency, which is why the Sligh list I posted doesn't run Tarmogoyf nor Grim Lavamancer. Sure, both of those guys are heavy duty damage dealers over the course of a game, but they are far less effecient at doing damage than the other creatures options.
Goyf cannot swing until turn 3 at the earliest, usually for only 3 damage.
Grim Lavamancer only does 1 damage a turn until you can start activating him, at which point he's 1 mana for 2 damage each time. So essentially, if you start activating him the turn after he comes into play, your paying RR for 2 damage, RRR for 4, RRRR for 6, etc. Compare that to Nacatl doing 6 for G, and you can see the efficiency difference.
The way I see it, the best approaches are the ones that commit fully to their strategy. If you're going to go a Fast Zoo/Sligh route, maximize efficiency. If you're going to go a Zoo/Big Zoo route, maximize power/cost, i.e Nacatl, Goyf, KoTR, etc.
This is a terrible logic! RRRR for 6 dmg might be true in some way, but it cannot be countered and it turns your graveyard into burn during mid-late game where you usually don't have much to use for your mana anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
Unless you know your opponent has a sweeper you go balls to the walls and spit out every creature you got as fast as possible. In a deck with mainly one-drops this is done pretty quickly, and it's lovely to have grim lavamancer to do some afterburn or clear the path for the beaters.
I'm going to play modern in a local tournament on sunday. I'm going to play domain zoo. Any thought what kind of list I should be playing? Are there any players who are going attend Pro Tour: Philadelphia and play zoo in modern?
@Artlee
You did read the context before you posted, right? Sligh doesn't care that Grim Lavamancer activations can't be countered, and it doesn't care that it turns its graveyard into additional burn in the midgame. Sligh cares about effeciency, and Grim Lavamancer is not effecient. I absolutely love Grim Lavamancer, and in a Zoo list, of course I'd run him. Sligh is a different animal.
20 lands:
12 fetch
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
23:
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Loam Lion
4 Kird Ape
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
16:
4 Lightning Bolt
3 lightning helix (better than chain lightning, in some matchups I just needed the life and instant speed is so much better)
2 POP (atm really the bomb)
4 mental misstep (you just can counter the GSZ and shit from others)
3 Path to Exile
1 xx (mostly random, I played a goblin buishwacker this tournament, if I got it it was really strong but idk about the random card)
this deck is very fast and can raise combo sometimes, control ain't a hard matchup (equipments I don't have a hard time against because control can't hold their creatures, I always burn those in stead of doing bolts and stuff on their life)
What I thought was a good matchup was Maverick, but I could almost do nothing against that deck..
Also against combo I think we should have a blue sideboard thingy, like spell pierces or something because I play mm main and then also spell pierce ( or also/snare) is really good because we can't do alot against combo...
@.. : The lynx aren't good enough, and I don't want to many land. The lynx akmost can't defend they are strong but die also very fast so I like kird ape/loam lion much more :)
Any questions I'll test some sideboard and mainboard now on cockatrice so if anyone wants to play add Xypes
Also the graveyard matchups are a pain because atm (my meta) they play alot of manaless dredge and also other decks play alot out of their graveyard so I was thinking the xx probably to play a scavenging ooze. And sideboard more graveyard hate because I expect it to see alot of play @GP Amsterdam...
I have the same problem, what's the plan to win against Maverick?Quote:
Originally Posted by BantFTW
I really don't know, I was planning on just playing NOPRO in the sideboard because I can xD
That just wins from them^^, also other matchups could be better with it I think so why not...
It's only 5 sideboard slots...
EDIT: in my list the mm are quite good against many decks, but the problem is also the damage you take sometimes, maybe you can better play cahin lightning or go for chain lightning and rift bolts and more pop or something and play no mm, i don't know they were quite good against combo and stuff so^^
Maverick is a rough matchup. It does depend on their particular build: Mom vs no Mom, Mistep, etc... But it is definitely rough. I've been siding Retribution of the Meek and it has been good against a lot of stuff. Going to start recommending those as decent answers to a lot of problems: Knight, Progenitus, Sphinx, etc...
I'm also considering adding Pyroclasm. It's a little stranger add, but it seems like it could work against a lot of stuff. Elves, Dredge, the chaff in Maverick, etc... That one is untested, but an interesting idea.
My basic game plan against Maverick is to become the removal deck. That means loading up on Path/Swords, Retribution and all the burn I can find room for. Before, I would aggressively kill Nobles, like I generally do with NO RUG. Lately, though, I've been letting them live in favor of saving the removal for more important creatures like Mom. That seems to be working better.
@Bant - not to immediately discount Misstep, but I don't see how it is better in your build than Chain Lightning would be. In sligh Zoo, you tend to get in some early beats until an opposing Goyf or Knight clogs up the board, at which point burn steps in to finish the job. Misstep protects you from Swords/Path and other Missteps, but is that really worth giving up all that reach for?
Also if your meta is infested with manaless dredge, just board 4 Leylines and mull to it aggressively. AFAIK, they have literally no answer to it.
Hanni, I get what you're trying to say here, but I think your logic is a little flawed. First off, Zoo is a Sligh deck. There's no point in splitting hairs. The original Sligh deck ran about 25 creatures and 8-10 Burn spells. That's true of most Zoo builds as well, with some people opting for more Burn. Running 24 Burn spells is more like a Burn deck with a Naya splash for the better creature options.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
On 'Goyf and Grim Lavamancer: They are both extremely efficient. They may be slower than some options, but efficient is their definition. In your reference to Wild Nacatl, you pointed out he's worth 6 damage after two swings. Goyf does the same thing, just a turn later, with the option of dealing double what Nacatl is capable of. Which would you rather have, Goyf or Ironclaw Orcs?
Grim Lavamancer is not the same as paying RRR for 4 damage, it's a Shock on a Stick every turn, assuming you fuel him properly. The Card Advantage outweighs the "hassle" of having to pay R every turn for 2 more damage you wouldn't have had otherwise. Sure, there are quicker spells (Lightning Bolt, Wild Nacatl for example), but efficiency isn't just measured by instantaneous performance. What else are you spending Red mana on by turn 3-4 anyway?
I understand the reasons to cut Lavamancer, especially if you're running 20+ burn spells. Cutting Goyf makes no sense to me if you're in green though. I'd cut Lynxes first, since you only listed 20 lands. I ran 1-drop Zoo at the GP with 25 creatures and "only" 10 or so burn spells and did just fine. I also ran Goyf and Grim Lavamancer.
Grim Lavamancer is good enough for Burn. It's good enough for me in Zoo.
mm is good because you can let them lose the tempo, like counter a turn 1 gsz and maybe they're a littlebit screwed to if you're lucky^^ so I really like it but not sure^^
True, but a T1 GSZ is only getting Dryad Arbor, which you can kill with burn.Quote:
Originally Posted by BantFTW
I play Misstep in the board, only against combos. It's reasonable there. But I wouldn't bring it in against much else.
yeah your probably right but still most people do'nt expect it but yeah :)
I played Misstep in Junk Depths for awhile and even then it sometimes was a dead draw. In Zoo I don't think we can afford to have cards that are so purely reactive and narrow. I can see the value against Combo but otherwise I think it's better to just draw another threat than a random counterspell. The surprise value is fun though :confused:
Mindbreak trap is better against combo, I'm just willing to run anything but a counterspell in Naya zoo.
Red Elemental Blast is the best counterspell we could ask for.
Alright, how do you beat Aggro Loam with Zoo? Playing Cox' list with minor changes* I just lost against that deck in the top 8. It was all the more frustrating because this is now the second time in a row that I got knocked out in the first round of the top 8, playing against the same guy with more or less the same list, him with Aggro Loam and me with Zoo. I think discussing this match-up is of general relevance because this deck has made a few strong showings recently.
He plays it 4c (green, red, black, white) with Burning Wish (Perish, Loam, Devastating Dreams, etc. as targets); Tarmogoyf, Knight and Crusher as beaters; Dark Confidant; Vindicate and Dreams all main, also Maze of Ith and Stronghold as well as Fire/Grove. I think it might have been this exact list.
My observations are that usual graveyard hate like Crypt and Relic is not so good and that the only chance of winning is to go all-in, very aggressive, and try to burn him out in the end. Only problem with dropping all your apes into play is Devastating Dreams, which I think I'm going to have nightmares about since getting Dreamed twice in one game made me want to pick up my cards and just walk away, or alternatively punch my opponent, neither of which would've helped much.
So anyway, I reckon more Price of Progress and perhaps Surgical Extraction (significantly worse that Extirpate though, and even worse if opponent plays Wish) could help here. I think this match-up will never be favourable for Zoo, but I think we should discuss measures to make it at least a bit better.
*My list: Changes from Cox':
main: -1 Loam Lion, -2 Lightning Helix, +1 Path to Exile, +2 Price of Progress
side:
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
I've also switched to aggroloam (always played zoo) and playing a list with 4 bolts, 4 chains, 4 apes, 4 wild nacatl main, it is as fast as zoo and mid/lategame it's really much better :)
But how to beat it, I've once thought about playing NOPRO sideboard, that's how I beated aggroloam and also maverick, otherwise those matchups are so hard, and then you don't even have combo and stuff counted. So I would go something like NOPRO it just wins matches^^
Also could you give me a list of that deck, I would like to see it, ty!
BTW also against those decks try to kill their confidants and things with bolts and chains and hold your PTE for knight, I also played a scavenging ooze main, it rocks against alot of stuff these days because everything plays something graveyard... just saying.
ps: this list :O? (Or something like it :?)
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
1 Terravore
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Terminate
3 Punishing Fire
1 Putrefy
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Life from the Loam
4 Mox Diamond
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Maze of Ith
3 Tranquil Thicket
1 Windswept Heath
3 Wasteland
3 Forgotten Cave
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 Plateau
2 Bayou
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Karakas
just a little trick i noticed :
path and goblin guide both give the opponent lands, but what are more lands useful for? Usually, the only thing fast zoo fears about giving the opponent land is playing 4 mana cc spells that wipe us out. So the answer, overload on the speed with gg, and maindeck 3x teeg so all those extra lands dont help em out much. Just took out my missteps for gg's and this is proving to be amazing.
just a little trick i noticed :
path and goblin guide both give the opponent lands, but what are more lands useful for? Usually, the only thing fast zoo fears about giving the opponent land is playing 4 mana cc spells that wipe us out. So the answer, overload on the speed with gg, and maindeck 3x teeg so all those extra lands dont help em out much. Just took out my missteps for gg's and this is proving to be amazing.
yeah, and mental misstep is banned too, maybe zoo is better now :)