All B/R update speculation.

The other day I was out to collect the low hanging fruits for my future Vintage deck on SCG and thought to myself, why not get a full playset of that Mystical instead of just 1 while I'm at it, but they were out of stock on Mystical Tutors. I clicked the wishlist button. About a week later I got the notification saying that it was back in stock and when I checked their site there were 30 cards.

My conspiracy theory is, they have an inside source and were holding the Mysticals on hold until they received confirmation that it wasn't getting unbanned. They received the confirmation and re-listed the card.

As I said, just a conspiracy theory..

They have just printed Miracle cards.
Don't worry, they will definitely NOT unban Mystical for a while. :tongue:

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Originally Posted by bilb_o

The other day I was out to collect the low hanging fruits for my future Vintage deck on SCG and thought to myself, why not get a full playset of that Mystical instead of just 1 while I'm at it, but they were out of stock on Mystical Tutors. I clicked the wishlist button. About a week later I got the notification saying that it was back in stock and when I checked their site there were 30 cards.

My conspiracy theory is, they have an inside source and were holding the Mysticals on hold until they received confirmation that it wasn't getting unbanned. They received the confirmation and re-listed the card.

As I said, just a conspiracy theory..

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Actually, it's far more likely that SCG actually has a decent/large amount of Mysticals and lists them in batches, making decisions about price point between batches. This is how they run prerelease orders, it prevents mass speculation while still allowing enough to keep business (they are willing to leave out 40 copies for spec but not 400), and in general allows for better reaction to the market.

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Originally Posted by AriLax

Actually, it's far more likely that SCG actually has a decent/large amount of Mysticals and lists them in batches, making decisions about price point between batches. This is how they run prerelease orders, it prevents mass speculation while still allowing enough to keep business (they are willing to leave out 40 copies for spec but not 400), and in general allows for better reaction to the market.

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I wonder how many people inside WotC know about bannings/unbannings before they go public. Seems like trading on this kind of insider information could be higher reward lower risk but on a much smaller scale than insider trading of stocks.

I don't know what to think about SCG sometimes. I don't think WotC gives them advanced knowledge of bannings/unbannings but I feel like every once in a while they catch wind of something down the grapevine.

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Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes

I don't know what to think about SCG sometimes. I don't think WotC gives them advanced knowledge of bannings/unbannings but I feel like every once in a while they catch wind of something down the grapevine.

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Every B/R List Announcement is preceded by months of debate and speculation. It'd be easy to figure out an "unbanned" price for all of the cards that could be unbanned, and list only some of the total stock at the current price on the evening of the announcement. By 12:01 SCG can update the price. No need for insider trading; I'm sure that could get SCG in huge amounts of trouble.

On the other hand, when cards are unbanned out of the blue, there must be a scramble to figure out an appropriate price. I know that I picked up Entombs shortly after midnight for much less than they cost the next morning.

AFAI-remember, SCG takes down most of their B&R stock prior to midnight during announcement nights to specifically prevent a run on any potential unbans. The ban cycle is mostly self evident through tournament performance.

My prediction for Legacy at this cycle:
No change. Go out and play whatever you will.

I agree with you Koby, no real change to the list for Legacy anyway (or they unban Earthcraft), Modern now that I have suspicions about bannings/unbannings

For Legacy, I predict no new bannings, though if they do ban something it'll almost certainly be Show and Tell or something else from that package (but Show and Tell still seems the most likely). Again, I don't think they'll be banning anything, but if they do I don't see any other real candidates.

For unbannings, I again don't think there will be anything. But if they do, I think it'll be Mind's Desire or Earthcraft.

In Standard, I'm even more confident there will be no changes.

No guesses about Modern.

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Originally Posted by Lord Seth

For unbannings, I again don't think there will be anything. But if they do, I think it'll be Mind's Desire.

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I hope man, I have a Judge Promo that is just aching to be played!

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Originally Posted by AngryTroll

Every B/R List Announcement is preceded by months of debate and speculation. It'd be easy to figure out an "unbanned" price for all of the cards that could be unbanned, and list only some of the total stock at the current price on the evening of the announcement. By 12:01 SCG can update the price. No need for insider trading; I'm sure that could get SCG in huge amounts of trouble.

On the other hand, when cards are unbanned out of the blue, there must be a scramble to figure out an appropriate price. I know that I picked up Entombs shortly after midnight for much less than they cost the next morning.

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You can adjust your sale price, but you can't retroactively buy stock at $2-3 each for a card that is now selling for $30.

Anyways I was more referring to how some asshole off the street could turn a nice profit quickly if they had that kind of info. Turn back the clock and imagine someone had known Land Tax was going to get unbanned. They could have bought out every Tax on Ebay for ~$4 a piece then had them all for sale ending within a week of the announcement and easily turn a 500% profit on each transaction.

As far as next B/R most likely no changes.

Taking down the B&R list on the day of announcement is old news. People have been discussing the possible unbans since last month and I'm sure the B&R stock saw some action (albeit small) since the unban of Land Tax. I'm also sure that leading vendors are already playing the next level game and holding onto the possible Land Taxes not only a day before but by keeping a decent stock.

It won't happen, but I wouldn't mind seeing Survival take on Show and Tell.

I'd love to see Survival of the Fittest and Show and Tell battling it out. Finally a feeling of Good vs. Evil back in the format.

Although an active Survival usually stops S&T pretty much cold anyway.

I'm hoping that come next week, we'll be a month or shorter from seeing Earthcraft vs Show and Tell.

Yeah. I'm so tired of Land Tax keeping Show and Tell in check.

By the way, why was Earthcraft banned/restricted in the first place? This is the only rationale provided by Wizards of the Coast at the time:
"Earthcraft joins the many other combo cards that are restricted in Type 1."

Which is one of the vaguest explanations ever and could be used as a rationale for banning any combo card. Were Earthcraft decks really tearing up formats that much?

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Originally Posted by Julian23

I'd love to see Survival of the Fittest and Show and Tell battling it out. Finally a feeling of Good vs. Evil back in the format.

Although an active Survival usually stops S&T pretty much cold anyway.

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I would like to think of it more as Clash Of The Titans than Good Vs Evil

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Originally Posted by Lord Seth

By the way, why was Earthcraft banned/restricted in the first place? This is the only rationale provided by Wizards of the Coast at the time:
"Earthcraft joins the many other combo cards that are restricted in Type 1."

Which is one of the vaguest explanations ever and could be used as a rationale for banning any combo card. Were Earthcraft decks really tearing up formats that much?

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Only because of Squirrels Nest, because apparently making infinite tapped (save 1) Squirrel tokens was broken

When is the next DCI ban/unban update?

Next week, but I'll spare you the wait. No changes.

Kiki-Mite combo exists. Why not Earthcraft-Squirrel's Nest?

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Originally Posted by (nameless one)

Kiki-Mite combo exists. Why not Earthcraft-Squirrel's Nest?

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No part of the Earthcraft-Squirrel's Nest combo has the keyword Awesome, nor does it enable any shenanigans with cards that have the keyword Awesome. Therefore, it'll prolly stay on the ban list.

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Originally Posted by (nameless one)

Kiki-Mite combo exists. Why not Earthcraft-Squirrel's Nest?

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Because SquirrelZ have The Nutz

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Originally Posted by John Cox

Because SquirrelZ have The Nutz

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http://www.interdata.ch/tm/EichhoernchenMitNuss.jpg

Seems valid



Earthcraft has more application than just squirrel nest but I don't know if it isn't ok today. I don't expect Anything to happen at 20th Sept. Sad, because Vintage needs some shakeup

Survival, why you no come back? Surgical is itching to eat your Vengevines.

-Matt

No changes. MAYBE we could see Twist or Earthcraft off, but i doubt it.

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Originally Posted by (nameless one)

Kiki-Mite combo exists. Why not Earthcraft-Squirrel's Nest?

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One involves two creatures, one of which is 5 mana. The other involves 2 enchantments, with the most expensive being 3 mana. I am not saying Earthcraft shouldn't be unbanned, but comparing Kiki-Mite vs SquirrelCraft isn't a good comparison.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I don't expect Anything to happen at 20th Sept. Sad, because Vintage needs some shakeup

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Ban fucking Vault, for example. /OT

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Originally Posted by kiblast

Ban fucking Vault, for example. /OT

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This is interesteing, because I don't see time vault as a problem card for vintage. However since it's un-errata time vault has dominated vintage entirely, -that's not something that indicates a healthy format.

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Originally Posted by John Cox

This is interesteing, because I don't see time vault as a problem card for vintage. However since it's un-errata time vault has dominated vintage entirely, -that's not something that indicates a healthy format.

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This is pretty much entirely false.

Dredge and MUD are both 10x as "unhealthy" for Vintage as Time Vault ever will be, and even with them in the format Vintage still seems fine for now.

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Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes

This is pretty much entirely false.

Dredge and MUD are both 10x as "unhealthy" for Vintage as Time Vault ever will be, and even with them in the format Vintage still seems fine for now.

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Dunno; I'm kinda tired of "playing" against Dredge and Workshop at least 4 rounds outta 7. It's basically draw 7, reveal hands, compare, Game 2 unless I Start with FoW and/or a broken play against Shop or have a fast Way to grab maindeck graveyard hate against dredge. It's really boring for me and unless they restict bridge from below or Lodestone i doubt something will change in a relevant timeframe. Time Vault was oppressive before gush and Lodestone with T4K in the pool; now it's more in line with Tinker and y.will as a trifecta and less of a problem. However, I listed my Beta power on MkM for Sale and focus @ Legacy atm.

The birth of a monster? Gp Ghent - Pietro Cavalletti - Sunday July 22nd
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
1 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
1 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
16 lands
1 Angel of Despair
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand
1 Maelstrom Wanderer
3 Progenitus
4 Shardless Agent
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Terastodon
1 Urabrask the Hidden
4 Force of Will
2 Hypergenesis
4 Misdirection
4 Show and Tell
4 Violent Outburst
-sb
3 Dismember
2 Ingot Chewer
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Terastodon

Show and Tell is looking more and more cautious, I know the format has been diverse as heck which is awesome, but something that can be this consistent, fast, and have just enough back up to push it through enough, is something that I cannot even ignore myself. 8 Spirit guides, 4 Force's, 4 Misdirections, enough cascades, and then just Show and Tell themselves.

I don't understand why you are bringing that up now. That's almost two months ago and in those two months the deck has done nothing.

Hypergenesis loses to almost any disruption which it can't really fight when the only counters it can viably play are force of will and misdirection. In addition to that brainstorm and ponder are necessary for a combo deck to be able to find it's combo and disruption quickly. By basing your entire deck around a mechanic which disallows you access to the entire 1-2 CC range of cards your just being dumb.

Hypergenesis decks look like a joke when you look at sneak and show and know and tell and even then these decks can be easily beaten.

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Originally Posted by alekill

I don't understand why you are bringing that up now. That's almost two months ago and in those two months the deck has done nothing.

Hypergenesis loses to almost any disruption which it can't really fight when the only counters it can viably play are force of will and misdirection. In addition to that brainstorm and ponder are necessary for a combo deck to be able to find it's combo and disruption quickly. By basing your entire deck around a mechanic which disallows you access to the entire 1-2 CC range of cards your just being dumb.

Hypergenesis decks look like a joke when you look at sneak and show and know and tell and even then these decks can be easily beaten.

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This. Hypergenesis came out with the new 1UG cascade, but has posted rare results from then. That deck loses to a lot, a lot of things, including a CotV for 0. It's a good deck but for now isn't posting consistent results.

If I'm not mistaken that deck had a good feature match on SCG today and Chapin was saying that it was broken and kept saying "I don't know man, that deck seems... I don't know man..." I may be confusing it though as I was busy having a fight with my gf on Skype so don't know really..

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Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes

This is pretty much entirely false.

Dredge and MUD are both 10x as "unhealthy" for Vintage as Time Vault ever will be, and even with them in the format Vintage still seems fine for now.

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Vintage is a format that seems to be perpetually unhealthy. Its like two diseased people shitting on each other. I don't know why these comparisons always come up. Vintage can't really be compared to Legacy. The fact is the Legacy metagame is much more adaptable than the Vintage metagame; the DTB changes all the time and new cards have a much bigger impact on existing archetypes and sometimes bring an entirely new deck into the fray.

The deck Chapin was flipping out about is:


4　《引き裂かれし永劫、エムラクール/Emrakul, the Aeons Torn》
4　《グリセルブランド/Griselbrand》
4　《断片無き工作員/Shardless Agent》
3　《絶望の天使/Angel of Despair》
3　《大祖始/Progenitus》
2　《テラストドン/Terastodon》

4　《実物提示教育/Show and Tell》
4　《Force of Will》
3　《全知/Omniscience》
3　《献身的な嘆願/Ardent Plea》
2　《超起源/Hypergenesis》

4　《サプラーツォの岩礁/Saprazzan Skerry》
4　《吹きさらしの荒野/Windswept Heath》
3　《溢れかえる岸辺/Flooded Strand》
3　《ヒッコリーの植林地/Hickory Woodlot》
3　《霧深い雨林/Misty Rainforest》
2　《Tundra》
2　《Tropical Island》
2　《僻遠の農場/Remote Farm》
1　《Savannah》

side board
4　《虚空の力線/Leyline of the Void》
3　《忘却の輪/Oblivion Ring》
3　《ヴェンディリオン三人衆/Vendilion Clique》
3　《水没/Submerge》
2　《誤った指図/Misdirection》


it isn't going to get past RUG reliably and seems much weaker than Omni-Tell. I think Chapin was right, he don't know.

If I remember correctly Chapin doesn't play or follow legacy. He only does legacy coverage for SCG because he is Patrick Chapin.

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Originally Posted by alekill

If I remember correctly Chapin doesn't play or follow legacy. He only does legacy coverage for SCG because he is Patrick Chapin.

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He is the same one that was saying the SneakShow decks were fair when Gris first appeared and was loling at the chicken littles. This Hypergenescience deck has a worse mana-base than regular Hypergenesis, it runs less cascade spells, and runs less protection. Hypergenesis already had issues resolving through counters with 4 Force and 4 Misdirection, this new incarnation will almost never be able to fight double counter and often will get blown out by a single counter.

My take on Show and Tell in Legacy is still that, even though none of the Show and Tell decks are overly broken and dominant in the format the card itself became overly dominant as the go-to combo card with around 7-8 established decks around it. Meanwhile other individual combo decks have almost been pushed out of the format. I'd rather have Storm, Dredge and Reanimator in the format than having 8 different Show and Tell decks which basically do the same thing with a different shell. The way I see it this card is currently restricting the way combo decks in the format can be constructed and I wouldn't mind a ban.

Edit: I also like to remind the Mental Mistep era blue decks and Drew Levin's article about the diversity in the format. I don't like his articles in general but his claim was that everybody was basically playing the same strategy with a different shell (5 different versions of Stoneblade). There is a similar situation with Show and Tell currently. For reference here's the article:
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...ur_Weapon.html

I think banning Show And Tell won't hurt the format at all, decks like Hive Mind, Sneak Attack, Dream Halls, and Hypergenesis would just learn to adapt without the card

The Hyperscience deck looks incredibly bad almost no protection and easy to disrupt

I am in no way saying ban Show And Tell, just that some of the Show And Tell decks can play without the card