[Deck] UW(x) Landstill

@ hanni

Your list is quite interesting, but I have a few questions.

First, why do you play Counterspell over Spell Snare? Isn't CB in your list the card that has the purpose that Counterspell has in the standard build (having a solution to pretty much everything in the mid and late game)? Spell Snare seems to be a better choice in this slot because of its speed and its cost. Of course Spell Snare doesn't work that well with CB, but have you considered or tested it? Maybe a split could be an option too.

Second, is Predict really a strong enough card drawer in Landstill? It gets you one extra card for two mana which is of course not bad, but a card like FoF gets you more cards or a card you really need. Maybe FoF would be to high for your curve, but I don't think that Predict fits in this Deck. It's better in decks like Threshold or Fish that don't have the mana base for FoF.

Third, what is the point of playing Vindicate in the Sideboard? Of course it is definately a good card in this deck, but why having it in the board too? Its flexibility makes it a good card. So you could board it in against pretty much every deck except combo maybe. I mean, destroying a land for 1BW is pretty bad, destroying a creature or an artifact or an enchantment for that cost too. Just the fact that you have the option to use it as a solution for many problems makes it playable. My point is that this card is a great maindeck choice because of its versatility, but in the sideboard you want to have more spezialized cards like PtE or MM.

Fourth, you say that CB works "beautifully" with the decks mana curve. I doubt this. You have a really lot of lands (23), quite a lot 4cc (7) and only a few 3cc (2). It should still be enough to get CB to work, but it's really not that strong as it is in other decks.

Spur Grappler

I play a 3/3 split of CB and spell snare and it's cool...

hey whats up guys, just got back into mtg and am going to play in a tourny this thursday. I run UWb wish and just want to know what to name vs ichorid with meddling mage? or what should i name against any combo decks with meddling mage? i was never good at the match up

For Ichorid, generally Cabal Therapy followed by Dread Return. You should be able to counter the Return without Mage, but Therapy can be annoying as hell.

For ANT, go with Ad Nauseam, especially since everyone seems to be running Saito's list nowadays. If you're looking at a Doomsday or IGG list and they're at low life, you might consider those as well.

For Belcher, go with Empty the Warrens, followed by Belcher, cause you can counter the Belcher a lot easier than the warrens.

For Enchantress, it depends on what point the game is at. If you're dropping it turn two, name Argothian or Presence. Later on, one of Sigil, Mesa, Words of War, or Replenish, rather heavily dependent on your hand and how the game has turned out so far.

That, I think, is all the decent combo decks, and I'm fairly sure those are the right things to name. Feel free to correct me, people.

thanks a lot for the input, really appreciate it.

Vs Enchantress in the late game name replenish first. if they can't recur the win conditions it gets easier. Replenish --> Words --> Sigil. there last out is decking you... Good luck with that.

Hanni's list looks pretty dam good. I like how Landstill moved toward Planeswalkers as wincons instead of the old school Decree of Justice.

However, I have a hypothetical question for the Landstill players. I keep asking myself this question whenever I enter the Landstill thread so I figured I would finally ask it. If Mana Drain were unbanned, would you revert back to Decree as the win con? Given that Mana Drain is just a better counterspell, I'd imagine that it would be played instead of counterspell rather than a supplement to counterspell. I know most mana costs in Legacy are low (hence the dominance of CB in the control scene) but Mana Drain can also counter some pretty high CC stuff like Ad Nausuem, Natural Order, Force of Will, etc. Mana Drain allows you to sink all of your mana into something that wins the game quickly. If you get into a counterwar over something, you could have 3 4/4 angels on turn 3 if you Mana Drain a FoW --> Decree.

Or maybe the deck would develop differently?

If Mana Drain were legal, we'd be running Gifts Ungiven.

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First, why do you play Counterspell over Spell Snare? Isn't CB in your list the card that has the purpose that Counterspell has in the standard build (having a solution to pretty much everything in the mid and late game)? Spell Snare seems to be a better choice in this slot because of its speed and its cost. Of course Spell Snare doesn't work that well with CB, but have you considered or tested it? Maybe a split could be an option too.

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Counterspell is 2cc and Spell Snare is 1cc primarily. Other than that, Spell Snare is narrow and Counterspell can answer more spells.

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Second, is Predict really a strong enough card drawer in Landstill? It gets you one extra card for two mana which is of course not bad, but a card like FoF gets you more cards or a card you really need. Maybe FoF would be to high for your curve, but I don't think that Predict fits in this Deck. It's better in decks like Threshold or Fish that don't have the mana base for FoF.

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FoF is 4cc and I need a 2cc spell there for Counterbalance. I've been unsatisfied with Standstill for a long time and that's why I've decided to test Predict out. The change from Standstill to Predict is still in the testing stages so I won't make any comments yet.

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Third, what is the point of playing Vindicate in the Sideboard? Of course it is definately a good card in this deck, but why having it in the board too? Its flexibility makes it a good card. So you could board it in against pretty much every deck except combo maybe. I mean, destroying a land for 1BW is pretty bad, destroying a creature or an artifact or an enchantment for that cost too. Just the fact that you have the option to use it as a solution for many problems makes it playable. My point is that this card is a great maindeck choice because of its versatility, but in the sideboard you want to have more spezialized cards like PtE or MM.

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Incase 2 MD Vindicates isn't enough and I want to play games 2 and 3 with 3 or 4 of them. What more specialized cards would I bring in when I need to handle more problematic spells like Survival or something? There's other options of course, like Engineered Explosives, but they would essentially be doing the same thing. So what's the point of not running more Vindicates, or at least some other artifact/enchantment answers? I already run PtE and MM in the sideboard...

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Fourth, you say that CB works "beautifully" with the decks mana curve. I doubt this. You have a really lot of lands (23), quite a lot 4cc (7) and only a few 3cc (2). It should still be enough to get CB to work, but it's really not that strong as it is in other decks.

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It does work beautifully. Once CounterTop is online, I almost always answer 1cc and 2cc spells. I'm unable to effectively answer 3cc like other CounterTop decks, but I can instead effectively answer 4cc spells. While that may not be quite as good, I'm also running other answers like Vindicate and Counterspell to handle the 3cc spells that CounterTop doesn't. My deck doesn't use CounterTop as a crutch, it uses it as just another control tool I have at my disposal in addition to everything else, which just so happens to create card advantage for every spell countered after the first, in a deck that relies on card advantages to win (usually).

Don't compare CounterTop in other decks to CounterTop in Landstill. That's the mistake people always make and why no one appreciates MD Counterbalance in Landstill.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

If Mana Drain were legal, we'd be running Gifts Ungiven.

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Why? Which 4 would you choose? I'm intrigued.

Predict looks ok. Its nice when your opponent is playing Doomsday or Mystical Tutor/Enlightened Tutor. Otherwise, I'd imagine it would be weaker than Standstill. It seems really bad if you are going to name something and then choose your opponent. Your opponent can SDT in response, BS in response or even Fetch in response.

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Why? Which 4 would you choose? I'm intrigued.

Predict looks ok. Its nice when your opponent is playing Doomsday or Mystical Tutor/Enlightened Tutor. Otherwise, I'd imagine it would be weaker than Standstill. It seems really bad if you are going to name something and then choose your opponent. Your opponent can SDT in response, BS in response or even Fetch in response.

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Take a look at Vintage. We can't grab Yawgmoth's Will, but there are still a ton of broken piles that a Gifts can singlehandedly get. I think there is some sort of Depths/Hexmage pile that can turn into a game win, among others.

What my point is, if they unbanned a card like Mana Drain, the deck would be capable of running I-win cards like Gifts. Regardless, they won't take Mana Drain off the banned list because it is way too rediculous.

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Predict is weaker than Standstill in that it only draws you 2 cards instead of 3, but that is made up for by Predict being more castable more often. Standstill can only be dropped on a clean board. If the opponent has aggro in play, it's dead in hand until the board is cleared. What if I need my draw spell to work before the board is clear, i.e I need to draw spells to clear the board? If my opponent runs manlands/Wastelands/Vials, my Standstills are completely dead for that entire matchup.

Standstill only helps when you're in a good or stable position, but doesn't pull you out of lousy ones.

Predict has 10 cards to work with. 4 Brainstorm, 4 Top, 2 Jace. The first 4 are only 1 time effects, so it would have to be properly timed. The last 6 are constant-use effects. What that means is, once I put a Top in play, all of my Predicts will be draw 2's for the rest of the game. With Jace, I can use the fateseal ability to ramp counters and still draw 2 with Predict, or I could simply use the Brainstorm ability and use Predict to dump the worst card in the graveyard while I draw 2.

I would never cast Predict unless I was capable of drawing 2 from it, unless:

I was in such a desperate situation where I simply needed an answer that I didn't have right away, or I lost the game.

Otherwise, it just sits in hand dead until I can get a draw 2 from it. However, Standstill is still going to sit in hand dead more frequently, and for longer durations.

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To be honest, I was considering going to 3 Predict, cutting the 2 Standstills in the testing version of my deck, and going up to 3 Vindicates. I'm not really sure about this though, and so I want to continue to test the 2/2 split of Predict/Standstill.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

Predict is weaker than Standstill in that it only draws you 2 cards instead of 3, but that is made up for by Predict being more castable more often. Standstill can only be dropped on a clean board. If the opponent has aggro in play, it's dead in hand until the board is cleared. What if I need my draw spell to work before the board is clear, i.e I need to draw spells to clear the board? If my opponent runs manlands/Wastelands/Vials, my Standstills are completely dead for that entire matchup.

Standstill only helps when you're in a good or stable position, but doesn't pull you out of lousy ones.

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That is only true in your case because of the absence of Decree. In fact most of the lists posted in this thread recently have seemed so far away from what the fundamentals of Landstill were I would almost make the argument that they should not be in the Landstill thread. Then again perhaps you made that argument for me when you suggested cutting Standstills for Predicts.

The list you have posted looks good as a three color control deck BUT at the point in your developing of the list Standstill becomes a weak card you are no longer playing Landstill you are playing a control deck that happens to be running Standstill because most of the card advantage draw cards in the format are to mana intense to be useful in Legacy.

The ENTIRE point of Landstill as a deck concept is that you can play Standstill at nearly anytime during the match up because you will be able to win the game without breaking Standstill where your opponent cannot allowing you access to a 2 Mana Ancestral that is legal in Legacy and we are allowed to run 4 of.

I apologize for injecting the history lesson but when I come looking for this thread and it isn't even in the deck to beat forum yet clearly Landstill should be able to beat the entire deck to beat forum consistently I have to wonder what the hell has happened. With cross hate for Reanimate hitting Landstills worst match ups IMO Ichorid and Loam Decks, I am wondering why results are not getting put up with this deck anymore.

This is merely speculation but what I am seeing in alot of lists is succumbing to playing cards that are fun and not playing cards that win games. I am also seeing a huge shift away from Landstill as a concept whitch IMO is a primary reason for the general lack of success that seems to be occurring. I'm sure people are winning with the deck but as I scanned through the last few pages I failed to see anybody posting a list after winning an large event with it. Sure playing the new Jace is cool but Fact or Fiction is a far stronger card in any match up I can think of where Standstill could be difficult to cast. Typically anything where Standstill is hard to cast runs Vial and several threats, the same threats that prevent you from casting Standstill will destroy Jace. A huge part of why Landstill worked so well was because of the hybrid on draw spells between FOF and Standstill and how in any match up atleast one or the other is incredibly strong. Without resolving card advantage Landstill is an absolutly aweful deck as you choke up on excessive lands and can have difficulty finding the appropriate cards you require to deal with threats at hand in the time you have, in short Landstill is an absolutly aweful deck when it comes to just blind top decks. Sure you can get lucky rips but without genuine card quantity advantage you will not consistently win with Landstill.

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Originally Posted by konsultant

The ENTIRE point of Landstill as a deck concept is that you can play Standstill at nearly anytime during the match up because you will be able to win the game without breaking Standstill where your opponent cannot allowing you access to a 2 Mana Ancestral that is legal in Legacy and we are allowed to run 4 of.

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Looking over this thread the past couple days, I have to agree with konsultant. Landstill was my deck of choice years ago, and coming back to the game I was surprised to see this deck pushed out of the DtB forum.

The original point of Landstill was always to drop the Standstill on a clean board while still hitting with factories (or Mutavaults, or dare I say, Faerie Conclave) and if anyone had a problem, pop SS to find the FoW you need. Counterbalance seems like a really good fit into the deck, and I would almost say Tops should be MD even without CB, but they shouldn't take away from the concept of the deck. Over time I hope to rebuild a Landstill deck and I would toy with the idea of including 2 CBs and 3 Tops, but the rest of the decklist can't be built AROUND them, they're a handy utility.

I also understand your argument for when you need acceleration and SS is stuck in your hand being useless, but Predicts shouldn't replace Standstill for that reason. The deck should still have Brainstorm/Top/Jace/sometimes FoF to find answers, then once the board is under control again, drop Standstill, rinse, repeat.

Also, have I been reading correctly that Landstill decks now run Horizon Canopy/Crubible? There's another draw engine.

I played my first tourney with Landstill (with a suboptimal list) monday and went 4-3. Beating Bant Aggro, Bant CounterTop, Merfolk & Reanimate but losing to Merfolk, something UW Tempo-ish & the Mirror. I'm positive that if I was a better pilot and my deck was a bit better that I could have made top-8 (although I'd have probably faced ANT more, as they dominated the higher tables).
I changed my list, and was looking for some advice about it. The dutch meta is alot of Goblins/Merfolk/ANT and the rest of the field differs. Top tables are dominated by ANT, low tables by merfolk. There's CounterTop, Bant Aggro, The Rock, LandStill, Tempo *****, Dredge, Reanimate, Zoo and more mixed in as well.
The list I am currently testing:

Lands: (23)
4 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
2 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland

Card Advantage & Quality: (11)
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei Divining Top

Counters: (9)
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare

Removal/Board-Control: (13)
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Vindicate
2 Humility
2 Wrath of God

Win Conditions: (4)
3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Decree of Justice

Sideboard: (15)
4 Engineered Plague (Merfolk/Goblin)
4 Ethersworn Canonist (ANT)
4 Leyline of the Void (Dredge)
3 Diabolic Edict (Reanimate, Dreadstill etc.)


Some points I'm not positive about:
- Are wastelands good without crucible? I pretty much need UUWW(B) asap.. (I'd replace it with Dust Bowl/Tolaria West/Academy Ruins probably)
- Standstill is often not that great due to vial and stuff. Is going back to 3 Standstill better? And should I replace it with a FoF to keep the blue count and the draw count up?
- Should I run a FoF instead of a Top or something as well?
- If I had a Moat would I run it over humility? Or might a 1/1 split be best? Or would you run a different number than 2 of these cards?
- Is 3:2 Counterspell/Spell Snare the proper ratio in this?
- Leyline is good against Dredge and maybe usable against Loam. These are hard matchups, but not that common. Is it worth 4 slots in the sb? Is hardly being able to hardcast it a reason not to play it?
- Are 4 win-conditions enough/too much? And is 3 Elspeth/1 Decree good? I recently added the 1 Decree and I like it so far.
- Would more spot-removal instead of mass removal be better (PtE) with alot of merfolk/goblin?
- Would Extirpates (and maybe 1 Crucible) in the side be better than for example Edicts?

Might edit in some more questions later ^^

Theres no question that the redundancy in landstill has drifted away from folks Geoff. I would go so far as to say that alot of good pilots have dropped landstill as of late because they were sick of meta-gaming with players who have not in fact played the format or understand the logistics of the arch-type. Not everyone, but some.

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Originally Posted by JamieW89

- Are wastelands good without crucible? I pretty much need UUWW(B) asap..

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Wastelands are ALWAYS good, but I think running 1 Crubible MD wouldn't be a bad idea. It always works well with Wasteland/Factories.

Maybe instead of 2 Humility you could split 1/1 with Moat, but that's a meta decision.

I would drop 1 Elspeth and 1 EE for 2 PtE, but I'm a fan of 1cc spot-removal (and you have Vindicate). That still leaves you 4 mass removal and 3 win condition (which should be plenty).

I love vindicates. Now that i got 1 Jace 2.0 + 1 Karakas to deal with iona, i think that i cut probably my wishes for 2 vindicates + 1 Stanstill.
I hope to have enought blue cards to set on fow.

How strong do you guys think spell snare is still? I run a 3/3 split between spell snare and counterspell but am thinking about cutting the spell snares going back to 4 counter spell and adding 2 FoF. I run 2 wrath, 3 EE, 2 humility, 4 StP, along with 2 Cunning wish, So i think my board control is pretty strong. How do you guys feel about spell snares lately? I'm starting to feel like I am more inclined to counter spells i normally wouldn't because they are cc2 and that is all spell snare can counter.

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Originally Posted by Burr

How strong do you guys think spell snare is still? I run a 3/3 split between spell snare and counterspell but am thinking about cutting the spell snares going back to 4 counter spell and adding 2 FoF. I run 2 wrath, 3 EE, 2 humility, 4 StP, along with 2 Cunning wish, So i think my board control is pretty strong. How do you guys feel about spell snares lately? I'm starting to feel like I am more inclined to counter spells i normally wouldn't because they are cc2 and that is all spell snare can counter.

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It's indeed strong. I run 3 copies. It's a good second turn (1st of yours) full counter. And in many matches could be determinant. It's not necesary to list up what it counters...
Off course in a late game could be a worse topdeck than counterspell.

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Originally Posted by GoldenCid

It's indeed strong. I run 3 copies. It's a good second turn (1st of yours) full counter. And in many matches could be determinant. It's not necesary to list up what it counters...
Off course in a late game could be a worse topdeck than counterspell.

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yeah its good on your opponents second turn when you're on the draw, but what can be such a threat that you can't handle with your board control? And of course, you always have force of will. I think 4 FoW and 4 Counterspell should be a good enough counter suite and am prolly going to go ahead and cut my 3 spell snare for +1 CS and +2 FoF. Spell snare can be weak late game while FoF shines mid and late game.

Although can anyone comment if spell snare improves the merfolk/goblin matchup? I haven't played enough of these match ups to fully know.

Spell Snare can handle turn 2 Exhume against reanimator (even with 2 lands Snare is still Daze prooft), Turn 2/3 Standstill after the previous Vial (maybe I just have bad luck but this happens a lot against me), Chalice @1 and of course Cabal Ritual/ Infernal Tutor (I actually can't see a way to fight ANT game 1 with only 8 counters (even if ANT isn't a good matchup at all if you aren't running CB/Top).

And yes Snare really helps against Merfolk, stopping Lords, Standstills and Silvergil Adepts (basicly their hole card advantage).
I'm not quite surea about Goblins, it depends heavily on their build (i.e. how many Thorn of Amethyst they run in there boards and how many Warren Instigator in there main (running Spell Snare with only 4 Valid targets isn't that great if you have a shitload of removals).

@ Konsultant:

Times have changed. The format has seen the printing of new and better cards since its original 2005 days.

Threshold, aside from the tempo variants that still run Mongoose, no longer run "threshold" creatures. Of course they were eventually renamed to "CounterTop," although that still doesn't really clarify much since there are so many different spin-off's of U/G/x Goyf + Counterbalance.

The same holds true for Landstill. Decree is just not at the power level of the format anymore. For 4 mana with Decree, you get a 1/1 token that cantrips. That same 4 mana can get you Elspeth. Spending 8+ mana on a win condition just isn't format-breaking these days.

The entire point of Landstill was to play a blue based control deck with an effecient creature removal package. At that time, white was the best splash color, and I still feel that way. The deck had many synergies within itself, like it's ability to Wrath of God while still having creatures via Mishra Factory, to break the symmetry. Or Humility + Factory, Decree + Standstill, etc. The obvious namesake was using Standstill as a draw engine, because 2 mana to draw 3 cards is broken.

The problem nowadays is alot of those cards, like Humility and Decree, are just not powerful enough for their mana cost anymore.

Maybe decks like the one I posted to belong into a new thread. Months back I was actually going to make a primer and new thread for Counterbalance Landstill, but then kinda stopped playing Magic for a while. However, that does not change the fact that for control decks to continue to compete at the top tier in the format, they cannot stay the exact same as they were in 2005. The deck must evolve as every other archtype does with new sets printed and new shifts in the metagame.

Either way, I always feel like I'm beating a dead horse when I post my deck in this thread. I thought maybe this time it would jumpstart a seemingly dead thread, but I guess it's still the same. I'll just have to wait for a Counterbalance/Planeswalker Control thread to get made and then post there.

@Hanni : While I agree that the format has evolved, I still believe Landstill has a place in this format. So far, I believe red splash is the way to go. You get firespout that is 1 turn faster than WOG and solves some aggro problem.

Let's take a look at the DTB
Merfolk, goblin, zoo : All three of these MU gets a boost from more mass removal (in the form of firespout). I'm pretty sure we can hit the 50-50 (and even favorable) with the correct number of removal.

Countertop : I imagine that Landstill still *beat CB deck. NO/Progenitus can be handled via counterspells, WOG, Humility

Survival deck : Limited tournament play suggest that it is not a negative match for us. Counter their survival and the deck is basically a CBish deck.

Ant, reanimator (seems to be more and more popular...) are big problem for us. SB should help us...



so, correct me if I am wrong, but it appears Landstill still has somewhat decent match against most of the top decks. While I agree that our current lists may not be optimal, I feel that going red to get that very positive MU against aggro is a good bet. Without red, I fear that the deck is just having a hard time against combo AND aggro. With red, its having a hard time but only against Combo.


EDIT @ Hanni again :
I am still not convinced by CB/Top. I actually believe that most of the format evolved and can play around it now. However, unlike some more traditional list, I've opted for Sensei's divining top MD. That card is absolutely insane and allows us to abuse Standstill even more. (Blind standstill can backfire from time to time)

I agree about the red splash for firespout. At the moment i'm testing the following list:

4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Plains
2 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
1 Tolaria West

4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Standstill
2 Fact or Fiction

3 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile
3 Firespout
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Humility

2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Decree of Justice
1 Crucible of Worlds

Side
3 Meddling Mage
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
1 Firespout
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Ravenous Trap/Faerie Macabre

I still think it needs something more; the main problems are a poor game against reanimator (tried a Karakas main but it was too random) and no outs at all against planetswalker.

Previously i used black so i had diabolic edict and vindicate, but using firespout instead of wog gives you a better game against zoo, goblin and merfolk.. I'm trying to find a better balance, going UWbr makes your manabase too fragile; in this case red would be the 4th colour, used only for firespout, supported only by 2 volcanics. That makes you weak against non-basic hate from goblins, merfolks, etc (and so the decks against which you need firespout).

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Originally Posted by konsultant

.."Landstill doesn't look like landstill anymore"...>

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I can buy your take on most of that. Pushing Landstill in a direction to optimize Standstill (what a concept!) has enormous potential. And if you're not using/abusing Standstill, you're really not playing Landstill.

Although, it would be really hard to convince me to go back to running FoF instead of Jace. Jace really is that good, games you can't resolve Jace in you weren't resolving FoF in either. He is both virtual and real card advantage, and another way to close the game if it comes to that.

I'm going to try publicly rebuilding my list by walking through my thought processes, anyone feel free to promote or destroy any ideas and the final list:

UWx Landstill, Matchup Perspective
Keep in mind this is all from my experience, yours my differ:

The portion of the metagame that Landstill dominates is Countertop, Bant, Zoo, Survival, and random jank people show up with.

Match-ups that are about even are Goblins, Tempo Decks (though tempo can be extremely player dependent), and other board control decks (Planeswalkers/4c Landstill).

The problem matchups, and what I'm concerned with the most, are Merfolk, Reanimator, Ichorid, Combo, and Lands/Loam decks.

Splash or no? R or B?

Just UW: Improved stability, great against Tempo/Blood Moons/Waste-lock. Sacrifices raw power level/options in the board. In my opinion it's worth it to splash.

Red Splash: I haven't gone this route personally yet, but players that splash red claim to dominate Merfolk with REB and Firespout, but in order to find room they often drop WoG which I feel is a poor decision with all of the Progeniti/Inkwells running around.

Black Splash: Splashing black gives you access to Vindicate, Edict, and Extirpate. The only real draw-back in my opinion is that you're not as strong against Merfolk as the Red splash.


Main Deck
I personally prefer the black splash, with that in mind, this is how I would build the maindeck. Trying to optimize for Standstill, and to dominate the decks we're supposed to:

Lands (23):
4 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
2 Island
2 Plains
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland

Draw/Filtering (10):
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Divining Top

Counters (10):
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare

Removal (11):
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Wrath of God
1 Day of Judgment

Win/Tech (5):
2 Decree of Justice
1 Humility
1 Jace 2.0
1 Elsepth

Some general maindeck comments:

The 1ofs... ideally you want to be playing Standstill's, and you want to be doing it early, the 1-ofs are all 4 drop late-game bombs you slam after they have blown your Standstill. Would I rather be playing 2 Humility, 2 Jace, 2 Elspeth? Yes. Is that viable? Probably not. You don't want to get a hand clogged up with 4-drops that laugh at you as you die stuck on 3 lands.

The counter package... I'm still torn between 4/3/3 or just going 4 Force/4 Counterspell, running all hard counters and opening up an additional slot for a Crucible or dubs of a Planeswalker. But I think if you want to get greedy with Standstill, Snare is probably more helpful.

The manabase... is super greedy, but that's the way I like it. For more stability you can cut a Mishra's for a Basic, or cut the Wastelands entirely for 2 basics and a Mutavault.

Sideboard

Now the major issue I see is that in order for the problem match-ups (and there is a lot of them) to become winnable/even we have to board a ton of hate. That's not to say I haven't won game 1's against Merfolk or TES or what have you, but it can be rough. We could pre-board against some of these if we expect them in any kind of serious numbers, but then you're significantly decreasing your ability to dominate the decks you are supposed to dominate.

If we had 20 slots in the board I think Landstill could be a serious force, unfortunately we have to try and squeeze as much overlap into 15 slots as we can.


Merfolk: Merfolk has always plagued me personally, I even lost a match to Merfolk when they started a game down for mis-registering their deck, so it's clear my strategy here has to change. I'm going to take Konsultant's suggestion on this one, it eats up more space in my board, but I think Preacher gets the nod. This doesn't support my "overlap" suggestion, but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do, it's not like you're NOT going to run into Merfolk at any kind of real event.

Combo: IMO Combo is handled pretty well by boarding in counters and hate-bears. I really haven't had any problems with ANT, TES or Belcher post-board.

Reanimator: This is a biggy, I've had huge problems with this matchup, even post board. The best answers I've found have been to bring in more counters and GY hate. Specifically I like Faerie Macabre, it's just too good against Exhume. Admittedly it is sub-par against Ichorid, but where I am Reanimator is way way more popular.

Ichorid: This is not played a lot here, but I would really prefer Crypt, Relic, or something like Leyline to Extirpate or Faerie.

Lands/Loam: Obviously the goal is to shut-down Life from the Loam. Meddling Mage + Extirpate do a decent job. Without the hate this matchup is really a blow-out in their favor.


So with all this in mind, I think I would make the SB look like this:

3 Preacher (Merfolk)
3 Meddling Mage (Lands/Ichorid/Reanimator/Combo)
3 Extirpate (Lands/Ichorid/Reanimator)
3 Faerie Macabre (Lands/Ichorid/Reanimator)
3 Spell Pierce (Reanimator/Ichorid/Combo)


If I'm way off on any of this let me know, at the moment it looks good to me, and I'm going to be putting it to the test.

I'll be at the 5K this weekend sporting a sexy triplet of Preachers.

The one thing I've been resilient to using is Meddling Mage, and as an outsider it gets the nod for Philly. I've actually never used the card before, even when Planeshift was in Standard. But you're right, Ben, Meddling Mage on Life from the Loam, Tendrils of Agony, Show and Tell, (wtf do you name for Ichorid? Breakthrough? Dread Return?) seems really godo right now against our worst matchups. Excuse me for being a newbie on the MM vs. Dredge part.

I had 3 Negate in the SB, really not that much better than Spell Pierce? What about Engineered Plague?


Edit: I currently have something like the following

4 GY Hate (Macabre/Crypt/Relic/etc)
4 Engineered Plague
3 Meddling Mage
3 Negate
1 Path to Exile


Need to find spots for Preachers.

Do you really need black lands with that list? You only need them for extirpate; I understand why you may prefer it to Tormod's Crypt, Relic of progenitus or Ravenous Trap. However i would feel more confortable going:
-2 black lands
+2 red lands
-3 preacher
+3 firespout
-3 extirpate
+3 Tormod's Crypt/Relic of progenitus/Ravenous Trap

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RogueMTG

Red Splash: I haven't gone this route personally yet, but players that splash red claim to dominate Merfolk with REB and Firespout, but in order to find room they often drop WoG which I feel is a poor decision with all of the Progeniti/Inkwells running around.

Black Splash: Splashing black gives you access to Vindicate, Edict, and Extirpate. The only real draw-back in my opinion is that you're not as strong against Merfolk as the Red splash.

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Keeping your maindeck and adding firespout to the side should give you enough against Progenitus, leviatan AND merfolk from what you say.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Morbid-

I'll be at the 5K this weekend sporting a sexy triplet of Preachers.

The one thing I've been resilient to using is Meddling Mage, and as an outsider it gets the nod for Philly. I've actually never used the card before, even when Planeshift was in Standard. But you're right, Ben, Meddling Mage on Life from the Loam, Tendrils of Agony, Show and Tell, (wtf do you name for Ichorid? Breakthrough? Dread Return?) seems really godo right now against our worst matchups. Excuse me for being a newbie on the MM vs. Dredge part.

I had 3 Negate in the SB, really not that much better than Spell Pierce? What about Engineered Plague?


Edit: I want to run something like:

4 GY Hate
4 Engineered Plague
3 Meddling Mage
3 Negate
1 Path to Exile


Need to find spots for Preachers.

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Man I wish I could make it down to Philly D:. Alas, we just moved last weekend and still have a crap ton of work to do. Maybe I'll say screw it and road trip down for the legacy on Sunday... xD. We'll see.

Against Ichorid I would probably name Cabal Therapy, maybe DR if I was in a tight spot. It varies a lot in every matchup depending on the situation you're in. The card can be a beast if you're familiar with the format, play it like Therapy, only name what beats you.

Negate is fine, I like negate, but I really wanted the faster 1-mana counter against Reanimator + Combo decks, if I had another slot I might roll with a 2/2 split. If you foresee yourself playing a lot of other control decks/mirror matches, Negate will shine.

The problem with Plague is that it's fighting with Preacher for space, and you usually need 2 copies out for it to be really effective. It's better against Goblins as Preacher wouldn't come in against them, but it's probably not as good against Merfolk, though I don't have enough experience with either to say for sure.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Phoenix

Do you really need black lands with that list? You only need them for extirpate; I understand why you may prefer it to Tormod's Crypt, Relic of progenitus or Ravenous Trap. However i would feel more confortable going:
-2 black lands
+2 red lands
-3 preacher
+3 firespout
-3 extirpate
+3 Tormod's Crypt/Relic of progenitus/Ravenous Trap



Keeping your maindeck and adding firespout to the side should give you enough against Progenitus, leviatan AND merfolk from what you say.

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It's a possibility, my MD really only has the splash for EE @ 3 which can be relevant.

I'll try that out, it comes down to two points:

Is 3x Meddling Mage and come conditional GY Hate good enough against Lands?
Is Firespout really better than Preacher?

Do it! Road trip! I was so pissed when you and rsaunder both said you guys couldn't make it down, I never venture out of a 4-5 hour range, haha.

That is actually the same dilema I had for Preacher, btw, you hit what I was thinking on the head. Preacher is effective against Merfolk, but not Goblins, and vice versa. I've never stuck an EPlague against Merfolk when it mattered. I'll see if I can test out Spell Pierce before this weekend, no promises on that one, haha. Revised SB:

4 GY Hate
3 Preacher
3 Meddling Mage
3 Spell Pierce
2 Path to Exile (or SP #4, I'm sure 75% sure SP #4 might be the right call for Philly).


The reason I ask is because I dropped the black splash a while ago, but it seems like the right call in this metagame, with Lands, Reanimator, etc. Also, I'm actually running Decree in this version, I got crushed by Merfolk last time for lack of cards to board in and not enough flexibility under Standstill.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RogueMTG

It's a possibility, my MD really only has the splash for EE @ 3 which can be relevant.

I'll try that out, it comes down to two points:

Is 3x Meddling Mage and come conditional GY Hate good enough against Lands?
Is Firespout really better than Preacher?

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Regarding EE@3 red or black makes no difference, btw.

I don't really have a lot of experience against lands, however it's still 9 cards against them; firespout is not only against merfolk but goblins, zoo, other weenies, matchups where you wouldn't side preacher in. And in my meta i see a lot more of them than lands.. It's probably only a question of metagame and personal taste.. :) And btw i should still test more to come up with a tuned list..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Morbid-

Do it! Road trip! I was so pissed when you and rsaunder both said you guys couldn't make it down, I never venture out of a 4-5 hour range, haha.

That is actually the same dilema I had for Preacher, btw, you hit what I was thinking on the head. Preacher is effective against Merfolk, but not Goblins, and vice versa. I've never stuck an EPlague against Merfolk when it mattered. I'll see if I can test out Spell Pierce before this weekend, no promises on that one, haha. Revised SB:

4 GY Hate
3 Preacher
3 Meddling Mage
3 Spell Pierce
2 Path to Exile (or SP #4, I'm sure 75% sure SP #4 might be the right call for Philly).


The reason I ask is because I dropped the black splash a while ago, but it seems like the right call in this metagame, with Lands, Reanimator, etc. Also, I'm actually running Decree in this version, I got crushed by Merfolk last time for lack of cards to board in and not enough flexibility under Standstill.

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Ha, we'll see. I'll run it by the lady tonight.

You hit it there w/Merfolk. We need a plan, and Decree can help a lot. I've seen some Merfolk players not board out Standstill's against Landstill, Decree can really punish them for that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Phoenix

Regarding EE@3 red or black makes no difference, btw.

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Well yeah, was just saying that aside from EE, the maindeck is UW so the splash color wouldn't make a difference.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Phoenix

I don't really have a lot of experience against lands, however it's still 9 cards against them; firespout is not only against merfolk but goblins, zoo, other weenies, matchups where you wouldn't side preacher in. And in my meta i see a lot more of them than lands.. It's probably only a question of metagame and personal taste.. :) And btw i should still test more to come up with a tuned list..

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Clearly it's more versatile, but I'm more concerned with whats strictly better against Merfolk, I think that'll take me some testing to determine.

With red, I actually believe that you can get a removal bag in the like of :

2 firespout
2 wog/humility
4 stp
3 ee
2 fire/ice (F/I don't have PTE weakness of giving land to opponent, and can something get 2 target for the price of 1, and pitches to FOW)

13 cards are spent on removal. (i usually play about 13+ removal and cut countermagics)
Against aggro, just destroy them until they run out of gas, and beat them with Elspeth. (BTW, elspeth really shines against aggro, we all know that. You force them to overextend, which in turn open them to mass removal!). I believe my MU is close to positive against Merfolk before SB. After, i believe its positive. That's a huge bonus right there. Also, with a package like this, I'm usually capable of beating fast aggro and random aggro.

@RogueMTG
Fighting against Reanimator is hard, I will concede this. However Jace 2.0 and Cunning wish seem to have worked for me before SB (I have 1 bounce as wish target in my sb). Granted, the first game is still very negative, I believe having some outs is not a bad idea. Karakas is another option we can try. It can replace one of the plain (I usually play 2-3 plains)
with black, you seem to gain from your SB some tools to fight against reanimate. I believe you have an advantage over me. However, REB are not to be ignored. They are cheap counters that can hit their cantrips (bs, mystical tutor, careful study and all their counterspells).



Heavy control is practically dead in my meta, so i am not scared of Planeswalker. Besides, that's when my counters are useful. A random 4th color land could solve the planeswalker issue

If you are going to play the red splash you can easily run REB's instead of Spell Pierce in your Board (+ : more hate Against Merfolk, helps against Reanimator or Ant. - : Doesn't really help against non-bluebased combos, isn't as good as Spell Pierce against Ichorid).
I'm currently running:
3 REB
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Meddling Mage
2 Firespout
2 Negate <- Not sure if Spell Pierce is worth this slot

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Felidae

I'm not quite surea about Goblins, it depends heavily on their build (i.e. how many Thorn of Amethyst they run in there boards and how many Warren Instigator in there main (running Spell Snare with only 4 Valid targets isn't that great if you have a shitload of removals).

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Piledriver, Weirding, Stingscourger, and post-SB Tinkerer too. Unless you have StP, you'd better counter the Piledriver, and unless you want a Lackey hitting you, countering Weirding or scourger T2 is almost a must.

I'm on the fence about Snare too, I'd probably run 2 or 3 main and use 'em for FoW if nothing else, then side 'em if they're useless.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pater

Piledriver, Weirding, Stingscourger, and post-SB Tinkerer too. Unless you have StP, you'd better counter the Piledriver, and unless you want a Lackey hitting you, countering Weirding or scourger T2 is almost a must.

I'm on the fence about Snare too, I'd probably run 2 or 3 main and use 'em for FoW if nothing else, then side 'em if they're useless.

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Um...*head scratch* Warren Wierding and Stingscourger don't really do anything to us. I guess Weirding would be annoying if they swung with Lackey and you activated a Factory to block, but if this is turn 2 and you just activated Factory you aren't going to have U up to Spell Snare it anyway...

If you really are dying for a target for snare against gobos, post-board Price of Progress can wreck you if you don't consider it. Generally speaking though Spell Snare is not very good against Goblins.

Snare has been a pretty "meh" card for me these days, it's extremely match-up dependent, so sometimes it's just dead. In the past few tournaments I've played I ran 4 Force/4 Counterspell as my MD counter package cutting Snare completely and I didn't really miss it too much. Probably would have helped against Merfolk though.

Having only hard counters did feel pretty good, but the UU cost could sometimes be a hindrance, I'm still debating going back to a 3/3 split or not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hanni

@ Konsultant:

Times have changed. The format has seen the printing of new and better cards since its original 2005 days.

Threshold, aside from the tempo variants that still run Mongoose, no longer run "threshold" creatures. Of course they were eventually renamed to "CounterTop," although that still doesn't really clarify much since there are so many different spin-off's of U/G/x Goyf + Counterbalance.

The same holds true for Landstill. Decree is just not at the power level of the format anymore. For 4 mana with Decree, you get a 1/1 token that cantrips. That same 4 mana can get you Elspeth. Spending 8+ mana on a win condition just isn't format-breaking these days.

The entire point of Landstill was to play a blue based control deck with an effecient creature removal package. At that time, white was the best splash color, and I still feel that way. The deck had many synergies within itself, like it's ability to Wrath of God while still having creatures via Mishra Factory, to break the symmetry. Or Humility + Factory, Decree + Standstill, etc. The obvious namesake was using Standstill as a draw engine, because 2 mana to draw 3 cards is broken.

The problem nowadays is alot of those cards, like Humility and Decree, are just not powerful enough for their mana cost anymore.

Maybe decks like the one I posted to belong into a new thread. Months back I was actually going to make a primer and new thread for Counterbalance Landstill, but then kinda stopped playing Magic for a while. However, that does not change the fact that for control decks to continue to compete at the top tier in the format, they cannot stay the exact same as they were in 2005. The deck must evolve as every other archtype does with new sets printed and new shifts in the metagame.

Either way, I always feel like I'm beating a dead horse when I post my deck in this thread. I thought maybe this time it would jumpstart a seemingly dead thread, but I guess it's still the same. I'll just have to wait for a Counterbalance/Planeswalker Control thread to get made and then post there.

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@Hanni. I do not discredit your list nor did I say that it was not a solid list. I am glad you see my primary point was that this may no longer be the correct thread to post it in. My second point may have missed though. Yes the deck has evolved from what it's original conception was as obvioulsy every deck has to. My point was INSTEAD of evolving LANDSTILL as a theory what I am seeing is people evolving it into a 3 color control deck. The difference may seem small but in actuality it is huge. The primary goal behind Landstill is to win through card advantage that is typically generated off of Standstills. Your rule of thumb, make sure you don't lose the game, next make sure you draw alot more cards then your opponent and lastly if the list is built correctly you will win through inevitablility.

Here is where things went wrong IMO. When Standstill was becoming a liability instead of making Standstill better and playing cards that would allow Standstill to be cast no matter what, instead the focus became cramming in additional counters and attrition based removal and losing sight on the critical importance of card advantage.

For example, Merfolk becomes a very popular deck. This is a problem for us because Standstill is difficult to play, they have wastes, vials, lords and mutavaults. While everyone was cramming in plagues and humility and moat even though most builds at the time were green with grip in sb and boarding out standstills unable to figure out why they were losing I instead focused on card advantage and sb Preachers and Path's and most definetly left all my standstills in the deck. Any Merfolk player that had the unfortunate luck of running into my build at that time absolutly boarded out standstill against me because between decree (card advantage mid-late game) and Preacher (retarded card advantage against decks with no outs for him) the standstills became a l;iability to the merfolk player and were a win con for me like they should be. If I am packing large amounts of hate for Ichorid i'll even leave standstill in against them and that is really the only match up where standstill is truly a weak card. That match up is also the reason I went to the 3-3 split with fof.

Yes Counterbalance can generate card advantage but it is an entirely differnent type of card advantage and can be ansered after resolution unlike standstill. (I will safely say I have not seen seal of cleansing in years and you should be able to stop pridemage)

Uhm. Reanimator? Ant? Aggroloam? (Thopter combo, bu that's less a concern). I may agree with all of your points, and in fact I almost entirely do. But it seems to me that ichorid is not the only Mu in which standstill is a weak card. And alternatively, those decks dominated and still dominate the format (first merfolk, then ant, then reanimator, and so on, at least here in italy).

Standstill is amazing against Aggro Loam, I would never board it out against them. They have few threats, and I haven't come into a situation where it wasn't a draw 3 unless they had Seismic Assault on board. I also wouldn't take it out against Storm.

I don't take them out against storm either, while against loam I'm more concerned on wastelock, but I usually keep 1-2 copies in. I would have better said: "landstill is weak". The concept (sorry if I did't explained it well it's a bit late here ^^) is that the format has seen increasing popularity and dominance of decks which are terrible Mu's for landstill, all mixed up together. Merfolk, and reanimator, and ant and such all require specific focus when building landstill; this would not be a bad thing if one knows how to build accordingly. This sunday merfolk? Red splash, got it. This sunday ant? Better not playing landstill... But we came to a point when EVERY tournament we have to face merfolk AND reanimator AND ant... landstill as a philosophy, it seems to me, can't cover such a wide area. And that's why people shifted away towards 3c control I think, more than evolving landstill, as konsultant said, and I believe this is true. Or simply put the deck aside. (And, as in my case, couldn't find another deck to enjoy the "inevitability" feeling which landstill gives and almost quit playing magic, putting the blame on his girlfriend instead of admitting the truth to himslef ^^)

If it makes you guys feel better I still call my control deck landstill for the nostalgia factor. It doesn't run decree or vindicate or wish for that matter but it continues to run standstill and mishra's just with a better matchups against the format running red to combat all the annoying stuff.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gustha

Uhm. Reanimator? Ant? Aggroloam? (Thopter combo, bu that's less a concern). I may agree with all of your points, and in fact I almost entirely do. But it seems to me that ichorid is not the only Mu in which standstill is a weak card. And alternatively, those decks dominated and still dominate the format (first merfolk, then ant, then reanimator, and so on, at least here in italy).

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I thank you completely for demonstrating my point right here. Whereas you are concerned about not being able to cast Standstill in match up's I consider all to be favorable granted they take careful play and some preparation in deck building, Standstill should be your ace in the hole against all of them. Both Reanimate and Ant have zero card quantity advantage meaning the cards from a single Standstill (assuming your list is well designed) are more likely than not going to be more than you need to stop them from winning. Would I tap out turn two to drop a Standstill against either of them, probably not but I would def drop it turn 4 or the most likely answer the turn after they try and go off. Here is the thing, they are combo decks and you are GOING TO HAVE TO stop them from comboing or you will lose. They are going to try and do something at some point in the game. If you can stop them and drop Standstillt the turn after I can pretty much say unless you are retarded you should probably win the game. If you don't have them in the deck you are trying to out top deck a combo deck with a much better card quality engine than Landstill has and you will probably lose. If I have any wisdom at all to impart from my years with developing this deck it would be this: You absolutly must resolve card advantage against your opponent inorder to CONSISTENTLY win, you cannot rely on top decks with Landstill as our excessive land count while absolutly needed is a hindrence when it comes down to statistics and the top deck race. That same high land count is also critical as it reduces the number of mulligans we may be forced to make contributing once again to card quantity advantage

Consider this, If you feel Standstill is not playable against a certain deck focus on exactly what circumstances prevent you from playing Standstill. The trick is to then determine a way to play Standstill WHILE those same circumstances that were preventing you from playing it before ARE still in play. Im gonna use my Merfolk example again as it was fairly recent and I think I may have single handedly doubled the value of Preachers from 2$ to $4 by being creative.

My problem was UG Merfolk, need to play Standstills but they have Vial, Goyf, Mutavault, Lord of Atlantis, Wasteland, 8 daze effects plus Force on top of the usual relevant horde creatures from any aggro deck. I isolated my focus, Vial would as always need to be stopped via Force or Explosives as Humility was to weak due to Grip in the SB plus opposing counter magic. All Force's and EE were thus saved unless I would lose the game otherwise for the single purpose of stopping Vial. Lord of Atlantis would need to not be allowed in play as Mutavaults would be unblockable and Standstill would be very risky to play. Add Path to SB and save all single mana targeting removal (STP,PTE) would be saved for Lord as it is the most reliable given their counter package being mainly mana denial based. By removing Vial and Lord from the overall equation I am now focusing on Goyf, Mutavault, Waste and Counter Magic. All factors that can be a hindrence to dropping Standstill but definetly not factors that would make me not want to have Standstill in the deck. After isolating the problem it becomes clear, find a card that can disrupt their general horde of creatures while producing card advantage on my side. Factor in their mana disruption and so the Ideal answer should be white as basic plains are a must against Merfolk as it cast all of my removal spells. Factor in their lack of creature removal and your answer becomes very clear Preacher. Granted I have played the game since Unlimited and Arabian Nights were on store shelves and am familiar with such older cards but my point is still there. Instead of siding out Standstills for the almost guarenteed loss I made Standstill a strong card and exploited their weakness. Preacher has actually turned out to be very strong against any aggo deck that does not run removal and has been a huge help against Affinity whitch is a match up I refuse to dedicate cards to.



I am making all of these points because I truly believe Landstill as a theory is not a dead or outdated concept. I believe it is time for some creativity. It is time to stop changing 1-3 slots here or there or switching one attrition removal spell for a different attrition removal spell. I am working on some things and if I get results from them then I shall post them. I compliment those that have tried a red splash and have actually made some overhauls to the deck although I personally do not feel that red is needed but I would say it is a step in the correct direction to try new concepts.